A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[MrEh]

Powershielding thunder takes almost no skill at all, pika's aerials also get ***** by Bowser tilts so it doesn't matter.

Klaw>Pika's Aerials

^^

 

[fromundaman]

I don't have much time to post tonight, nor do I even have that much Bowser experience, but yeah, that matchup discussion is VERY old... I don't think its that bad.
Yeah, we can combo you, but yeah, I'm pretty sure Kirby gets outranged by Bowser, and he isn't quite as slow as people seem to believe...
You guys also live a lot longer than us, though I'm pretty sure we could gimp you without *too* much trouble, supposing we get you off the stage.

 

[A1lion835]

I also don't have too much experience on this, but 70-30 on any matchup is probably wrong. Um...once we get you offstage, we can gimp you to hell and back, especially if we eat you, fall down a little and then spit you out. Um...firebreath is good IMO, but again, I don't really have experience against good bowsers (most of the ones I play I can trap in their own attack for about 30% damage, which I highly doubt would happen to almost any bowser on these boards). So...I think spit is best in this matchup. Um...yea. Anything else I have to say is probably wrong or already been said...

 

[Commander_Beef]

Wow, that is the funniest Wario eating Kirby picture ever!

 

[Collective of Bears]

I also don't have too much experience on this, but 70-30 on any matchup is probably wrong.

Help a brother out and go tell that to the Kirby boards.

 

[fromundaman]

I think the Kirby boards agree actually. We haven't re-discussed him though (along with a few others) so the outdated matchup numbers stay up.

Problem is, I don't think any of us actually know this matchup too well...

 

[Bowser King]

We'll be there to help out >:D

.....as long as you guys don't go all "he's big, has small range and is easy to gimp" then this matchup won't be to hard to discuss.

-Bowser King

 

[Red Arremer]

Kirby vs. Bowser... I'd go for 60:40 for Kirby... (is that like every MU for Bowser? lol)

Kirby has some pretty nasty tools against Bowser, and Kirbyciding wrecks us, but Kirby has not that good of a defense and is like, one of the lightest characters and therefore easily killed... :x He can steal the ph1r3, but Bowser's outranges Kirby's.
Kirby's gimping is Bowser's worst nightmare in this MU.

But I think due to us outranging the puffball and having a far better defense... with good spacing and forcing Kirby to approach us, I don't think the MU is as horrible as 70:30.

 

[fromundaman]

We'll be there to help out >:D

.....as long as you guys don't go all "he's big, has small range and is easy to gimp" then this matchup won't be to hard to discuss.

-Bowser King

To be fair, there's going to be some people who say that regardless (God you should have seen our Ganon discussion...), but we'll try to get it on track and informative.



Also, Spade, don't discount Kirby's grabs. Even when you're out of percentile range of our normal grab combos, we can simply do our Dthrow (which is our strongest one) which willluanch you directly above us, which is a bad position for Bowser if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Red Arremer]

Eh, I'm not too knowledgeable about Kirby's throws, tbh.

But yes, you're right - above and the air in general is nothing where Bowser wants to be. I don't know about Kirby's grab itself (and the range of it), but I do think Bowser has better grab range. As said, I'm not 100% positive.

Kirby has the big point that Bowser's Grab Release shenanigans aren't that effective on the Puffball.

So, I'd say 60:40 just for our great spacing and defensive game... Kirby is forced to approach us, and that's what we normally want.

 

[fromundaman]

Eh, I'm not too knowledgeable about Kirby's throws, tbh.

But yes, you're right - above and the air in general is nothing where Bowser wants to be. I don't know about Kirby's grab itself (and the range of it), but I do think Bowser has better grab range. As said, I'm not 100% positive.

Kirby has the big point that Bowser's Grab Release shenanigans aren't that effective on the Puffball.

So, I'd say 60:40 just for our great spacing and defensive game... Kirby is forced to approach us, and that's what we normally want.

I'm pretty sure Kirby's grab range is bigger than Bowser's (Which makes no sense whatsoever...) and is much faster. Shieldgrabs are definitely something to be careful of in this matchup.

How will you force Kirby to approach? It sounds to me like both sides are going to sit there and try to bait the other into approaching (Not sure how you'll do it. We'll probably use a retreating FC or two (probably no more since it is quite frankly a VERY bad projectile...), or just use empty SH's or whiffed Bairs.).

 

[Red Arremer]

Eh, FC is not really that good, you name it. =/

While we have the Fortress, and of course our gigantic shield, as well.

 

[Bowser King]

Spade, you picking up bowser?

-Bowser King

 

[Red Arremer]

Already picked him up some time ago, yup. His gameplay pretty much suits me. Just haven't posted too much in here, albeit being lurking. ^^"

With that I'm one of the few Bowsers in Europe and the only one in Austria, lol.

 

[Bowser King]

Already picked him up some time ago, yup. His gameplay pretty much suits me. Just haven't posted too much in here, albeit being lurking. ^^"

With that I'm one of the few Bowsers in Europe and the only one in Austria, lol.

That's cool

I never knew that but it's cool to have another bowser out there. Were like an extinct species

-Bowser King

 

[Jim Morrison]

*high 5*
Another European Bowser (although I'm not a main )

 

[Bowser King]

*high 5*
Another European Bowser (although I'm not a main )

Secondary is good enough
..and as long as your helping the bowser community It doesn't matter if it's secondary or main.

Your almost a masta! Weird, I just got 3000 posts today

-Bowser King

 

[fromundaman]

Eh, FC is not really that good, you name it. =/

While we have the Fortress, and of course our gigantic shield, as well.

I agree, but I fail to see how that will make Kirby approach. I just threw FC out there as an option to try and bait you into approaching.

 

[Red Arremer]

I agree, but I fail to see how that will make Kirby approach. I just threw FC out there as an option to try and bait you into approaching.

Well, I guess that'll be for both waiting until the other one does. Considering that Bowser is far more defensive than Kirby, we have the patience to wait =D

 

[fromundaman]

But at that point I'll just use FC to attempt to make you approach, or just sit there and wait. I don't have to approach you either after all. In fact, it would be disadvantageous to do so.

 

[Red Arremer]

Look, I'm not saying Bowser has the upper hand in this match or that Kirby has extreme trouble with him.

It's just that you'll never see a Bowser playing aggressively and trying to approach if he's not absolutely certain that he'll beat you out.
And if we do, we'll most likely use the good ol' Fortress with its invincibility frames or similar approaches you can't punish or only hard.

If your offstage game wouldn't wreck us so hard, I'd even say the MU would be even, as we outrange you in almost (!) everything and easily can KO you.
With everything in consideration, I'd opt for 60:40 for Kirby.

 

[fromundaman]

Personally, I agree. However, this is going to be another one of those boring matchups where neither player wants to approach.

 

[B!squick]

I guess it would depend on who has the safer approach options which I'm guessing would be Bowser, right? So I'm guessing Bowser would be the first to act. Also, it would probably depend on which player has more patience, so it should probably be chalked up to a case by case basis. And hell, who says you can't bait simply by approaching?

By the way, are we discussing Pikachu or Kirby now? O.o I don't remember the Pikachu one which is why I'm asking... I think I need to start drinking, I'm going senile in my young age. x_x

 

[Keen]

Man I wish Altered Beast was in this game.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Man I wish Altered Beast was in this game.

And this relates to Bowser vs Kirby... How?

 

[Bowser King]

And this relates to Bowser vs Kirby... How?

I was thinking the same thing >_>

Anyway, I think 60:40 is a good choice. I''ll expand on it later.

-Bowser King

 

[MK26]

How did I miss this?

And just to restate something that has already been said, the matchup numbers that we havent covered in the new thread are old, outdated, and subject to change. And 70-30 is too much vs Bowser anyways. I can see 65-35, but it's probably 60-40. I'd go with that.

We can do Bowser next week in our matchup thread if you guys would like that. We already have Mario and Falcon this week, but I can pencil Bowser in after them two.

 

[YagamiLight]

Just felt like popping in to say something.

A while ago, the Ike boards did the Bowser match-up discussion and the final result was that is was even or close to it.

And, just today, the Ike boards discovered that Back Throw can chaingrab Bowser (and only Bowser) and tested extensively with frame data, etc, etc.

The result is that Ike can CG Bowser to 42%, Back Throw for another 3% to 45%, Pummel for 48%, Back Throw again for 51% which combos into a Dash Attack ending up with 59% damage. So near 60% damage on Bowser from a powerhouse.

Bowser is still the subject of the Ike match-up discussion topic, so if you'd like to say anything there (or here is fine), feel free to do so.

 

[Lord Viper]

And 70-30 is too much vs Bowser anyways. I can see 65-35, but it's probably 60-40. I'd go with that.

☆ Don't be too sure about 70:30 being too much. Kirby can chain grab Bowser fairly easy if you apply right, so you'll already have at least 30% on Bowser and at most almost 50% if your apply right. Don't forget about D-Airing him while he come's back, his jumps isn't effective when your too low on the stage, that and Kirby can easily gimp him if applyed correctly, (well, he can gimp most character's). Most of the stuff is probably explaned already in this match up I'm guessing.. ☆

 

[B!squick]

I have a question. Just how WOULD you, or anyone for that matter, gimp Bowser?

 

[Lord Viper]

I have a question. Just how WOULD you, or anyone for that matter, gimp Bowser?

☆ Good question.

Me: I mostly use Up-B to push anyone that's comming back, then F-Air > B-Air at the right moment if I trick somone when approching, or if my foe is just trying to comeback. If I just want to add more damage when Bowser's comming back, I use Down-B after Bowser uses his second jump so he's forced to get hit, or dodge depending on what stage. I haven't tried gimping with Side-B, I'll test that later.

Others: Mostly use B-Air to gimp, I can't really tell due to me not seeing a lot of other Kirby's battle Bowser. ☆

 

[Red Arremer]

You DO know that Bowser's recovery move - good ol Fortress - has invincibility frames and like, insane priority?
Don't underestimate Bowser's recovery, and don't underestimate his power, either. We can easily kill you on low percents as you have one of the lightest characters in the game.

Kirby is, by all means, NO hard counter for Bowser. That's ridiculous, if I may go as far as that.

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ The last thing I'll underestimate is his power, his recovery is questionable to me if your able to interupt his second jump, or force him to use Up-B. I won't say that Kirby beat's Bowser in 70:30, that was the old match up guide. Now that the meta game is heated up, I'll say 60:40 as well, I'm just still thinking it's around 70:30 because it was on the old match up guide, that's why I came out of no were like a ghost, (my favroite Kirby power =D), in this debate. ☆

 

[Red Arremer]

His recovery is not questionable. His horizontal recovery is among the best in the game. His vertical recovery is not that awesome, but it's still around average, I'd say.

As said: Our UpB has invincibility frames. I'd like to see you trying to gimp Bowser with that one, Sir.
Bowser is not going to be there just being a big target offstage. He has his options. Fortress is not the only one. He can even punish you badly in the air if you whiff. Klaw ftw.

I won't deny that Kirby HAS the upper hand in this match (we're used to it, don't worry), but 70:30 is wrong. 60:40 is definitely what I would settle for.

That inaccuracy is mainly because everyone thinks like "Bowser is strong and heavy, but he's big and slow, so let's make it 70:30", without even knowing anything about the King of Koopas.

I guess that's what you get for maining a character who has been looked down to in Melee and is thought to be exactly the same bad except for players actually playing him.

 

[B!squick]

Looked down in Melee meaning anyone who's not Gimpfish. But I digress.

The reason why I asked was because, as said, Fortress has invincibilty. So I had to wonder, with Fair being pretty good (not Marth good of course), Fortress being what it is, Klaw having it's disjointed hitbox and own priority since it's a grab... just what can you do? It's not something I find myself faced with often as most people seem to either be too stupid or else afraid to gimp Bowser.

Here's how most of my recoveries happen on the rare chance they do happen to attempt a gimp:
-If I'm high or mid, I'm content to fast fall and jump and/or UpB back on stage before you can do anything to stop me. I'm usually very good at saving that second jump. And if I'm high and I can get above the ledge before my opponent can stop me they are met with a Bowser Bomb and either lose a stock, are mostly likely sent to higher i.e. knock out percents, or even it's air dodged I'm in the perfect position do whatever depending on where you happen to be at the time.

-If I'm low... well, then all it takes is a well timed edge hog to get that job done. x_x


Though, I do have the same problem you do. I really only ever encounter Kirby when they plan on only Kirby-ciding the whole time. *sigh*

 

[fromundaman]

I'm pretty sure Kirby can gimp Bowser after the invul frames on fortress wear off. I'd need to test it, but I think we could get through it with at the very least Bair, since it has a very disjoincted hitbox, and I vaguely remember using Dair on it, but I could be mistaken. It would require someone to test it, but I do believe we could gimp you IF we are careful.

 

[B!squick]

Well, I try not use Fortress until my opponent is near anyway if he's attempting to gimp and either get to the ledge or the stage. If I'm far enough out that I have to use it sooner than I like, then yeah, you should either clank or out right hit Bowser. But if you're doing this, Bowser probably wasn't going to make it to the stage anyway. Because if you're trying to BAir away from the stage and the above happens then X Bowser player probably used Fortress too soon. I almost NEVER find myself trying to sweet spot a ledge grab when recovering.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I think we should just write 40:60 for every matchup and save ourselves some time ^_^.

Has anyone tested how reliable Kirby's grab combos are on Bowser with correct SDI and Fortress timing?

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I think we should just write 40:60 for every matchup and save ourselves some time ^_^.

Has anyone tested how reliable Kirby's grab combos are on Bowser with correct SDI and Fortress timing?

You dont need to fortress, just SDI upwards when being hit with the upair or utilt

 

[A1lion835]

Has anyone tested how reliable Kirby's grab combos are on Bowser with correct SDI and Fortress timing?

Kirby's grab comboes can be escaped by every character. Fthrow>uair isn't even guaranteed against some (mario can jump/up-b, marth can up-b, I'm pretty sure mk can do something...), and all other chars can DI too far away. At least, that's what ninjalink says.