A.C.T Presents the NO THANKS DAD! invatational, may 31st

[tedeth]

The thing is, even if an ICs player can CG perfectly, their grab range is so short that if you know your character and space well you'll be almost ungrabbable anyway.

In the end it's all about spacing. Space well and you won't get grabbed. Space poorly and you will.

 

[luke_atyeo]

thats good and all but can we have some non ic's players comments that dont have biased oppinions, (yes shaya, I'm looking at you)

 

[EverAlert]

see its like this, and dont take this as me like personally attacking you cause I know you use IC's but I feel its like hey I grabbed you, now I can just chain you and kill you, sure I know it is pretty hard to do but once you burn it into your muscle memeory its like wow I grabbed you once and that was it, game over.

what shaya said is silly, its not your fault if you make 1 little mistake that gets capitalised on, no one can play a perfect game.
I will admit though that I dont know too much about IC's so help me out here guys, lets discuss.
also of course you can come, anyone can come.

lol that wasn't a question, I was simply stating that I may come (as in I'm considering it). But thanks for letting me know for sure. xD


About... infinites. You didn't really answer my questions. A: Would something like hobbling be allowed (which is a "chain grab" but not an infinite one)? B: Please define exactly what you're calling an "infinite". Endless combos, chain grabs up to X%, long strings of moves, which of these (and other similar examples) are affected by the infinites rule?


About Ice Climbers. I'll try to explain them to you. inb4 me ranting. (I didn't take it personally, btw.)

Just... picture all the BS that surrounds how broken MK is. Without chain grabs Ice Climbers are like that, but instead of good they're ****.

It is definitely possible to win without them, but it's really really really really hard, you can basically never hope to unless your opponent is extremely bad. Even with chain grabbing they have a lot of bad matchups, it's not as simple as just grabbing someone 3 times a match. Their grab range is ****, they have no ability to space whatsoever, they have no grab setups; basically your "grab game" revolves around mindgaming into grabs, you're not going to get grabs unless you can outwit your opponent. Whenever they actually GET the grab it's more of a blessing than some over-the-top thing.

By the way, good luck perfectly remembering their grabs, they can chain with 3 throws, two of which the timing changes depending on the character, and then all of those change again depending on which climber is actually throwing. Even if you were a machine who never got confused by constantly playing different characters every match, that is (2*39+1)*2=158 different timings. Which doesn't include other things like hobbling and finishers and whatnot. Hopefully that summary will illustrate to you what is meant by "their chain grabs are hard".

But yeah, people react way too hard when some Icies player chain grabs them to death. It's easy enough to get grabbed and chained when you don't know what to expect, but it's extremely easy to avoid the grabs in the first place. "Don't Get Grabbed" isn't some joke, it's actual meaningful advice. The first thing Icies mainers advise newbies is to learn how to actually fight with Icies rather than relying on chain grabs, because there WILL be times when you simply can't chain (when you're being outcamped by half the cast, when nana's dead/being a *******/being comboed, etc). The second main point is that you can't win without chain grabs, I remember one thread analysing the "best" Japanese Icies and everyone basically **** all over him for not chain grabbing, but that's beside the point.

I can understand banning infinites in, say, Dedede's case (insane grab reach + priority ***** + standing infinites lolololol), but in terms of Ice Climbers it's simply not warranted. It's like banning a character that really really does not deserve to be banned in the first place. If you must, limit chain grabs/infinites/whatever but don't completely ban them, that way Icies can still do something but other characters like Dedede have their chains limited. Or something. Like I said, they CAN win, they can rack up damage and kill and stuff, but they just.... don't. Seriously why do you think there's only like one really good Icies player in the world who consistently places well at large tourneys (Lain)?


TL;DR: Banning infinites are gay for Ice Climbers and super unwarranted. I didn't mean for that to be such a long *** essay, and most of it was whining, sorry. ;_; Hopefully you get the idea, anyway, that was an Icies main's perspective.

 

[tedeth]

+ nana is a ****ING *****

 

[M]

thats good and all but can we have some non ic's players comments that dont have biased oppinions, (yes shaya, I'm looking at you)

lawl, Shaya's completely biassed, against the IC players. xD

 

[Shaya]

Ice Climbers are really really gay.

Their infinites are broken.
Stupidly so.

Because even though they have a crap grab range, their level of desynching capabilities allows for amazingly hard to avoid grab set ups.
Most characters cannot avoid being grabbed if the ICs properly know how to desync blizzard, etc etc.

Anyway, vsing ICs is lame, really lame.
But there's no reason to ban their chaingrabs as an infinite.

Rules that put negative growth of the 'natural metagame', (i.e. why I think Dedede rule is kinda good but kinda bad), as in things that are being used elsewhere without too much complication, and honestly, we're behind in terms of IC capabilities, I don't see why they should be banned.

ICs are gay though, ban them.

 

[luke_atyeo]

ok well at this point it seems that I'm making myself look stupid

EA you actually bothered to write all that and put up a decent argument and your right, they dont really dominate the game, and your the only IC main I can think of anyways so yeah, I'll leave them as they are.

In other words IC's are allowed their crazy grabs and stuff, just dont be too gay.
hobbling is mmm, still dont know too much about that but for now I'll let it be in.

I'm not really trying to ban everything good that isnt snake (or am I...)
I'm just trying to level out the playing field abit here, which sounds hypocritical considering I main snake but hey, I'm trying right?

 

[Throwback]

I like the rule that you can't do the same move more than 5 times in a row - so d3 can't infinite the unlucky 5, but getting grabbed is still a bad thing.

Of course the easy option is to simply ban D3's infinite on DK, samus, mario, bowser & ganon.

I'd like to see IC's infinites of all kinds banned as well, because the fact is that our lack of development makes IC's chaingrabs MORE broken, not less. That's a long 2-sided argument tho so just ban D3's infinites since they are piss easy to do and screw 5 characters.

 

[luke_atyeo]

all infinite's are banned read the rules lololol,
they said I was crazy!!! but I'll show them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

vid of the day, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fv2IsRoZhs&feature=related
metaknight broken? get pwned.

 

[EverAlert]

Shaya - lol what grab setups? Desynced Blizzard doesn't work, just SDI up and they can't grab you.


Throwback - If I remember, Luigi also gets infinited by Dedede. At least that's what they were saying on the SMYN podcast. Also if I'm reading it right, Shaya's saying our lack of development means there's no really good Icies players dominating and causing a problem, not that we don't know how to deal with them.


Luke - Cool beans, it'll be nice to be able to use my main. I'll try not to be too gay, but there's a few things I want to try that will probably make people go OMG EA IS NOW EVEN GAYER, so be wary. Spacing, spacing! xD

To explain hobbling (quickly lol), it's when you throw with the main climber, footstool with the second climber, then use an ice block to force wakeup and regrab. It's not infinite because you can SDI the ice block, hobbling doesn't work at edges so you SDI toward an edge to end it. Also the ice block freezes at around 200% depending on the character, so it's not infinite anyway.

Also that video is epic, Snake's too good, Ally's too good.

 

[Toby.]

hobbling is ****ing gay.

Each repetition of the chain does like 5%, and it takes ****ing ages to either get to an edge or reach 200%. Not that IC even need to get you to 200% anyway, since hobbline refreshes all their kill moves.

Basically its just Minutes of MASSIVE BOREDOM.

 

[luke_atyeo]

mmm cmon, if a move can combo from 0% to 200% and end there, technically its not an infinite but it might as well be.

 

[EverAlert]

It's escapable though, no johns. Also lol at you for letting ICE CLIMBERS grab you.

Seriously though, that's why I asked what you're counting as infinites, it's not clear. Things are being included because they're extreme, even though they're not actually infinite. I'd like to hear a definition.

 

[swordsaint]

Let infinite's in **** it. They're in the game. If infinites are being banned because they're broken and "cheap", where's the Metaknight ban?

Grab infinites- Don't get grabbed, just like EA said.

Now I'm curious about "lock" combos as well. They aren't infinite but they go from one side of the screen to another racking of some hefty damage. Are they going to be banned?

Btw, I don't main anyone with an infinite.

Still no accommodation for me either?

 

[S.D]

That Ally guy has a good snake.

 

[EverAlert]

To the people catching a bus there, what times are you all planning on going? Would be nice to coordinate our trips and fill a bus with smashers. <3

Also Luke, assuming I go, are you able to house me both nights? That would be super helpful.

 

[Toby.]

I don't mind whether infinites are banned or not.

Regardless, EA's insinuation that anyone who gets get by ice climbers is bad is just stupid. You're underplaying their ability to land the grab by a lot.

 

[S.D]

If you're good enough you won't get grabbed.

Pick a character that floats or jumps a lot and you're fine.

Oh and try this cool new thing called spacing - it really helps out.

 

[tedeth]

Spa.... cing?

You lost me.

Pretty true tho what SD said.

 

[M]

More characters need PK Fire...

Try me, Nana, ****ing try me! >=O

 

[Shaya]

I guess you people haven't seen Lain's Ice Climbers.

That ******* gets the grab. No jokes.

 

[tedeth]

He sure does. Oh I heard the US were discussing banning ICs.... wait no they aren't, because they don't dominate tourneys, because they aren't as amazing as people seem to think they are.

If you base your "ICs should be banned" theory on Lain's ICs, lets all watch Ally play Snake and then ban snake aswell shall we? I mean, Snake has like, explosions. Why don't we all just drink poison!?!?

Lets stop discussing this. Banning CGs is basically banning ICs full stop, who aren't even top tier.

 

[S.D]

More characters need PK Fire...

Try me, Nana, ****ing try me! >=O

"PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! PK FIRE! "

Get at me ***** XD

 

[Shaya]

I never (properly) said ban ICs CGs :S

You need to calm the **** down tedeth.

 

[Sieg]

I never (properly) said ban ICs CGs :S

You need to calm the **** down tedeth.

But you implied it! lol.

No reason to ban chain grabs. Have any tournaments been won with CG's?

If you can't dodge a grab, then that's not your opponents fault, or their characters fault.

 

[EverAlert]

Osht guise, what is this "spacing" you're all talking about. New advanced tech?!?11?!!?1



lol Sieg, I remember the finals of the last tourney having some rather gay release grabbi-- owait that wasn't with Icies.

I guess you people haven't seen Lain's Ice Climbers.

That ******* gets the grab. No jokes.

I guess you people haven't seen M2K's Meta Knight. That ******* abuses the dsmash. No joke.
I guess you people haven't seen Ally's Snake. That ******* comboes with explosives. No joke.
I guess you people haven't seen <character's top user>. That ******* <plays their character how they're supposed to>. No joke.

Seriously what. Saying the best Ice Climbers in the world gets the grab doesn't mean Icies have grab setups (at least, I think that's what you're implying. >.>). It just means the world's best player of that character is actually good with that character. (Amazing, I know!)

Regardless, EA's insinuation that anyone who gets get by ice climbers is bad is just stupid. You're underplaying their ability to land the grab by a lot.

lolwat, I didn't say anyone who gets grabbed by Icies is bad. I said getting a grab with Icies requires so much work and they need it so much that they deserve the chain to death when they do manage to grab. If it was so easy to get grabs with Ice Climbers, I would be winning all the tourneys I go to; I'm not exactly terrible at chain grabbing. And even getting the grab isn't guaranteed, people are very good at mashing out these days. >.>

People can mess up/be tricked/whatever, **** happens. I never have and never will say that a player is bad just because they got grabbed by an Ice Climbers player, that is just stupidity. I'm sorry if that's the impression I gave.

 

[Toby.]

It's escapable though, no johns. Also lol at you for letting ICE CLIMBERS grab you..

Thats what I was referring to...but really I dont mind either way. I think I was just in a bad mood tbh

Plus as soon as you put my actual name in the quotes instead of my ****ty username all was forgiven :3

 

[EverAlert]

Ah, yeah, that was in jest, hence the "seriously, though" at the start of the next line. :3

No hard feelings.

 

[tedeth]

I never (properly) said ban ICs CGs :S

You need to calm the **** down tedeth.

You sound less calm than me.

 

[luke_atyeo]

what have I started...
*sigh* dont be ******** guys...

anyways alot of our players use characters like DK (1 mistake and your grabbed) mario and luigi (have to get in real close) all that ****, and they are like check out my 25 frame attack with 2 invincible frames and 7 recovery frames that can clash with (insert lots of attacks here).

In other words we just play without the gay **** like marth doing 150% with a dtilt against a wall.
is it just me?

Edit- also when I said anyone can come stay at mine I meant anyone can come stay, so scoot, EA yes its fine.
just be prepared to be crammed into one room and have sleeping arrangement priority similar to captain falcon, whilst Elysium has sleeping arraignment priority of G & W

 

[Sieg]

Osht guise, what is this "spacing" you're all talking about. New advanced tech?!?11?!!?1



lol Sieg, I remember the finals of the last tourney having some rather gay release grabbi-- owait that wasn't with Icies.





I guess you people haven't seen M2K's Meta Knight. That ******* abuses the dsmash. No joke.
I guess you people haven't seen Ally's Snake. That ******* comboes with explosives. No joke.
I guess you people haven't seen <character's top user>. That ******* <plays their character how they're supposed to>. No joke.

Seriously what. Saying the best Ice Climbers in the world gets the grab doesn't mean Icies have grab setups (at least, I think that's what you're implying. >.>). It just means the world's best player of that character is actually good with that character. (Amazing, I know!)



lolwat, I didn't say anyone who gets grabbed by Icies is bad. I said getting a grab with Icies requires so much work and they need it so much that they deserve the chain to death when they do manage to grab. If it was so easy to get grabs with Ice Climbers, I would be winning all the tourneys I go to; I'm not exactly terrible at chain grabbing. And even getting the grab isn't guaranteed, people are very good at mashing out these days. >.>

People can mess up/be tricked/whatever, **** happens. I never have and never will say that a player is bad just because they got grabbed by an Ice Climbers player, that is just stupidity. I'm sorry if that's the impression I gave.

/thread.

Or rather, slash topic.

The only thing you can do is ban stages where Chain grabs can kill.

Which we've already done.

 

[Shaya]

I didn't imply anything.

I said ICs **** shouldn't be banned.
If you're good enough with the ICs you can infinite the cast, with a better damage output and character spread than Dedede does.
Saying that it's different because ICs have **** grab range is like saying "oh its okay, I think infinites should be banned, but coz the ICs have a [arguably] hard one to start, it should be legal".
Stop with your god **** double standards.

And your 'other player' examples are fallacious. Good players of GOOD CHARACTERS get **** DONE. If you were actually a good player e_alert, you'd be able to get grabs too. Because if the best ICs main can get grabs on the best players, then you should be able to as well. You make out because it's so hard it should be legal, yet there are players out there who are able to do it consistantly and with ease.

No, I don't think IC infinites should be banned, but not because of e_alert's SCRUB/skill john reasons.

Also, Charizard's grab range is gay, ban Charizard.

 

[Sieg]

To be honest, this arguement is stupid and ********. Maybe back in Melee I could have understood this arguement, but in Brawl it's so far toned down that it's very easy to break.

I mean, you can say all you want about how Americans are good at IC's and ****.

But do we live in America?

The point is, there is no one here that can do it consistently and effectivly.

Until that days comes, this arguement is pretty void within our community.

 

[swordsaint]

How about the ACT stop being girls about it and just get on with the game?

 

[EverAlert]

Stop with your god **** double standards.

I'm not saying to ban other infinites. In case you didn't notice, I brought infinites up in the first place because I disagreed with them being banned. Luke said he didn't know much about Icies so I explained them to him, that's how this turned into an Icies debate. Cut the crap.

you'd be able to get grabs too.

umm, I do get grabs? Pretty sure I grabbed your MK to death last tourney, I grabbed pretty much everyone. My argument had nothing to do with my own ability to use Ice Climbers, nor even all that much about the overall infinites banning issue, it was about how people overreact to Ice Climbers' chain grabs when they're not even a problem.

Yes, their chain grabs are broken as ****, nobody's disputing that. However, with only one really good Icies player, they far from dominate in America, let alone Australia. That is why they shouldn't be banned, which is the same as why other infinites shouldn't be banned. Isn't that why we limit Dedede's ****, because he dominates in certain situations matchup/stage-wise?

Way to take everything I said and twist it out of proportion.

 

[M]

I grabbed pretty much everyone.

Lies. We both know I killed myself several times in ridiculous ways. >.>

 

[EverAlert]

Hence "pretty much," meaning there were exceptions. The point doesn't change. >.>

 

[Silfa]

How about the ACT stop being girls about it and just get on with the game?

Lol.

Anyway, I doubt luke's going to change the infinites rule, so I don't really see where the discussion is going to go. Personally though, I'm pretty indifferent to them. Except maybe Dedede's, that's lame.

 

[Toby.]

On the other hand Mario's new infinite on Wario is just lols.

I wanna do it to ted next tourny =D

 

[tedeth]

What's this? Research time!