7.0.3 discussion

[FrozenHobo]

there is no ledge change in the pac i added. unless i feel like re-uploading the pac for some reason (and believe me, that ain't happening) its staying as-is.


additionally, the lylat pacs are still giving me an issue. i suggest using a code for that stage. the others should work fine with the pac fixes, though.

 

[Yeroc]

I'll also vote no ledge change for Orpheon.

I'd like to see a ledge on the roof of Dephino though.

Hope you can figure out what's wrong with Lylat.

 

[GHNeko]

I like the ice on Summit. :/

My movement on the stage is virtually unhindered because I learned how to move on it. I dont think it's nearly as game changing as what I've heard people believe it to be.

I'd be okay with reduced Ice, but having it completely gone kinda makes the stage bland. From what I've tested, the only thing it has going for it is an FoD-ish feel and being the new WarioWare of 7.0.3.

 

[MK26]

iunno what weve done with ps1+...maybe we should just use the pac with the shortened rock and tree...or just leave it alone

Leaving legit cps alone is always, always an option.

also, with lylat, i think some of the files need to have _en added to the end of their names...but im not 100% sure...it might just be that not all of the files are needed

 

[FrozenHobo]

when i tried just adding the file with the boundary change it still froze. the _en may be an option, though. need to test to find which ones would need it.

 

[Veril]

Don't say "its a CP for a reason". It isn't a CP just cause you claim it is. Of course characters with amazing recoveries will love that non-grabbable ledge s*** (Rob, Jiggs), but any character requiring precision to recover (Lucas, Ness, Zard, etc) gets ***** by the right side when it is non-grabbable.

Again, don't reference the s*** MLG stagelist.

 

[Veril]

meastro, for 7.0.3, did we include PS1+? and if so, what was the changelist for it?

The PSI from the site download is fine other than the boundaries. PSI+ is awesome (mostly due to the shortened rock). Just needs some fixes for its size... as I've already stated.

On summit+: Ice that's substantially less slippery would be fine.

 

[Plum]

No idea if this is possible, but if you really are concerned with Frigate Orpheon and how it's lack of a ledge on the right side of the 1st transformation then here's a thought:

Have the stage start on the second transformation by default, and then switch to the ledgeless part?

I've played TONS of matches where the stage never changes once, which does really hurt characters who need a ledge to viably recover. So if it was at all possible, why not have it start on the part where the stage has no problems for recoveries? You could still take a tether/just plain **** recovery character to the stage, but you wouldn't even be guaranteed that you get to play on the part of the stage you are trying to take them to.

Again, I don't think anything is needed to be done to the stage. If you really have a problem recovering on the stage then just ban it, or I'm sure there's ways to get around the weakness of the right side for your character by staying on the left side or whatever. That's my stance on the stage, and also a little idea I thought of.

 

[FrozenHobo]

The PSI from the site download is fine other than the boundaries. PSI+ is awesome (mostly due to the shortened rock). Just needs some fixes for its size... as I've already stated.

On summit+: Ice that's substantially less slippery would be fine.

ok, then i need the PS1 pac download again, because what i used was a fresh one (i didn't see it in my sd ).

as for summit, you're going to need someone like dant to figure out how to edit it. on the topic of sliding, i'm jst going to stay out of this since i have a biased opinion on the matter and want the rest of the wbr to state their own opinions.

 

[JCaesar]

Don't say "its a CP for a reason". It isn't a CP just cause you claim it is. Of course characters with amazing recoveries will love that non-grabbable ledge s*** (Rob, Jiggs), but any character requiring precision to recover (Lucas, Ness, Zard, etc) gets ***** by the right side when it is non-grabbable.

Again, don't reference the s*** MLG stagelist.

One of the best Olimars on the east coast (Pyronic Star) regularly CPed Frigate in Brawl. After I beat him there once, he practiced the stage so much because he was worried it would screw over his character's ****ty recovery that he ended up ****** there. My point is, the lack of a ledge on one side is not some un-overcome-able obstacle, even for the characters who get screwed the hardest by it. Extensive stage knowledge and practice always come out on top.

Also, who referenced the MLG stagelist? I honestly don't even know what their stage list is (but I'm sure it sucks).

 

[Veril]

^^ Good point... and cool story. Too bad Pyronic Star gets ***** by tripping in the ****ty game he plays ;p. (anyone else see that match?) I really like Plum's idea of making the start position of the stage the flipped variant. For now I'll concede the point on Orpheon.

On Summit+... again: I don't know if any of you remember my argument with Cape over Ike's side-b. The move is extremely tricky to punish on block, not so much due to its advantage window but due to the amount of shield-pushback it creates. Now I went through the cast and showed that nearly everyone (with the possible exception of Ganon) had a response on block that was a reasonable counter to side-b -> jab shield-pressure. Now, Cape to his credit did illustrate this tactic very well to myself, Thunderhorse?? and OBM. I was able to get around it fairly easily as lucas but it was extremely difficult as Ganon. You basically have to either frame-perfect shield drop dash-grab, which doesn't work with everyone, or OOS fair. These options don't work on Summit+.

Take this tactic to Summit+ and it becomes 10 times more effective. This isn't meant to be the sole example, but it is a microcosm for the problems created by low-friction base of Summit+. It took a lot of time for me to show Cape numerically that Ike's side-b was not in need of a change, and Summit+ throws a huge wrench into that.

 

[shanus]

^^ Good point... and cool story. Too bad Pyronic Star gets ***** by tripping in the ****ty game he plays ;p. (anyone else see that match?) I really like Plum's idea of making the start position of the stage the flipped variant. For now I'll concede the point on Orpheon.

On Summit+... again: I don't know if any of you remember my argument with Cape over Ike's side-b. The move is extremely tricky to punish on block, not so much due to its advantage window but due to the amount of shield-pushback it creates. Now I went through the cast and showed that nearly everyone (with the possible exception of Ganon) had a response on block that was a reasonable counter to side-b -> jab shield-pressure. Now, Cape to his credit did illustrate this tactic very well to myself, Thunderhorse?? and OBM. I was able to get around it fairly easily as lucas but it was extremely difficult as Ganon. You basically have to either frame-perfect shield drop dash-grab, which doesn't work with everyone, or OOS fair. These options don't work on Summit+.

Take this tactic to Summit+ and it becomes 10 times more effective. This isn't meant to be the sole example, but it is a microcosm for the problems created by low-friction base of Summit+. It took a lot of time for me to show Cape numerically that Ike's side-b was not in need of a change, and Summit+ throws a huge wrench into that.

So isn't that a classical example of a counterpick then? Just as much as a ledgeless frigate is a counterpick to some characters, I fail to see how those with good shield pressure options shouldnt be given a unique CP option.

Basically, your "microcosm" of problems on Summit+ doesn't show anything broken, but shows that specific characters have advantages on a specific stage, which is by no means revolutionary.


Just to inform you guys I don't even like Summit+, but at the same time the shield pressure argument is simply not valid (yay for devil's advocate). I'm not a fan of the slideyness (its even incredibly slidey in PM with significantly higher friction), but is there any discernable proof that there is anything broken about it? Personal distaste doesn't count! I think a prime example of this is if rainbow cruise can be a CP with all of its unique attributes, Summit+ can be as well.

 

[Veril]

You missed the point.

 

[shanus]

You missed the point.

No, its a hard point to miss. Basically you think a lot of problems can be made by low friction base on summit, and provide one extremely poor example and define it as a microcosm (because clearly a 1 case basis for 1 char out of 39 with abnormally low endlag is a suitable example for a microcosm).

Dish out the problems (note: real problems) and then maybe you'll have a case. So far all you have going for is counterpick shenanigans and nothing more.

What absolutely broken strategies exist that go beyond polarizing a few matchups? Little discussion has been dealt with Summit+ other than "Sliding results in bad stuffs like omgawdz." I don't even like the sliding, but I can see why people are frustrated at its outright dismissal while things like changing delfino are on the table.

 

[Veril]

Didn't feel like it was extremely pressing to respond to because really, who in their right mind would think Summit+ is legal, CP or otherwise?

In my experiences with Summit+, the slipperiness is simply too obstructive in a match and screws around with one of the most key aspects in smash: spacing. Yeah I understand that if we remove the slipperiness, this issue could be fixed but the stage would lose it's uniqueness and flavor. But leaving it how it is now just makes it a horrible stage to fight on. Spacing gets thrown out the window because you have so little friction, dash dancing doesn't work (properly), and there's this really silly glitch where if you charge a forward smash, even when standing completely still, you get a huge boost in momentum, making some fsmashes like Wario's way too potent for its own good on the stage.

Really I thought this was a no-brainer.

Feel free to c/p all that if you want.

If you take away the slipperiness, I think the level might be CP material. It totally changes shield pressure, making some characters shield pressure way better and some characters way worse. Characters that rely on getting into a certain position and staying there, either on their shield or at a certain space, but have a hard time reaching that space have a really hard time on this level. This includes Ganon and many heavies. You go up to them and hit their shield and one of you just slides away and you have to go through all that work to get into your desired position again. This level ***** those kind of characters.

The level also introduces stupid things with smashes that have really good lingering hitboxes. Sheik and Peaches dmsmashes come to mind. Peaches dsmash can actually be safe on shield sometimes. I can also imagine olimar sliding smashes being really stupid on this level, but I haven't really tested that out.

On the other hand, characters that have lots of shield pressure options regardless of specific spacing could do really well on this level. Sheik comes to mind here. She can hit your shield and it doesn't really matter too much if you slide away, because she can stay on you.

Now I also have a less specific complaint. This is a very gimmicky stage. Knowing how to play with the sliding makes such a HUGE difference. Now, I know a lot of people will just say that it's player responsibility to know the level. However, seeing as there are so many new stages, I don't think there should be stages that are really hard to adapt to technically. If we have a lot of stages, it should be the case that players have to adapt strategically and tactically to the boundaries and platform arrangements, etc. It seems to me that if you have two players of relatively equal skill, one who has practiced spacing on the ice and one who has not, the one who hasn't won't be able to win.

Basically, the level really changes matchups because it changes fundamental spacing and shield pressure strings for all characters. This greatly improves certain characters and weakens others, by too large a margin. Secondly, the gimmick of the level is too specific and knowing how to deal with it has too large an affect on the outcome of the match. Remove the ice.

This argument is considered so pointless that I have literally had to demand input on this stage. The support for it in the B+broom is pretty much non-existent. As usual I'm arguing the point on my own. I'll update this as everyone else responds.

Here's a short list of other people who basically loled when I've brought this stage up:
1. Glick
2. VaNz
3. Blind

 

[shanus]

As I said before, I am simply playing devil's advocate to stimulate discussion on the broken tactics you highlighted. (See my first post)

Am i greatly advocating this stage? No, I'm not. However, I wanted clear examples of broken tactics that are wherein highlighted aside from highlighting that is messes up the spacing game. I think this is the point you missed from my posts about it. A lot of talk circulates entirely around the gimmicky-ness of this stage (I agree, I would never play on it), but at the same time, isn't learning how to play rainbow cruise (or pokefloats in melee knowing the spawn times, lol at the fox spammerer camping video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg) also gimmicky knowledge too?

Do we even know how to remove the ice or alter its friction coefficient?

All I'm doing here is trying to classify what constitutes a CP-worthy stage? At what point does it become *too* out there, a la Summit+?

 

[FrozenHobo]

what is the opinion on the stage without the ice? i know its bland, but would it get any actual play?

 

[GHNeko]

You know if you're worried about certain smashes being too good on Ice due to sliding and hitboxes, you can simply change it so that the smash gives the character infinite friction having them stop on the dot like other smashes on Ice.

And the stage does not a large effect on the outcome of a match up simply because you know how to maneuver the stage. I've played plenty of people on the older summit which has more ice on the base and ice on the platforms and they were able to adapt well enough to perform on the stage as well as they do on another stage in less than a few matches without knowing how to work the stage.

The fact that the latest summit has no ice on the plats and reduced ice on the base reduces the "TOO GIMMICKY" factor by a huge margin. The stage at it's current point affects the outcome of a match no more than a stage like Frigate does or like Rainbow Cruise does.

 

[omegablackmage]

well if i was running a tournament, summit+ would def not be on the cp list. It doesn't really test what we train to do, which is play on stages with normal traction. I shouldn't have to devote hours a week to practice on a stage with ice just because someone thinks the stage is 'fun' or interesting. We have enough interesting stages, and as is, imo, the stage list is getting to big. Just my thoughts

 

[FrozenHobo]

well if i was running a tournament, summit+ would def not be on the cp list. It doesn't really test what we train to do, which is play on stages with normal traction. I shouldn't have to devote hours a week to practice on a stage with ice just because someone thinks the stage is 'fun' or interesting. We have enough interesting stages, and as is, imo, the stage list is getting to big. Just my thoughts

you didn't answer my question.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Without ice it would be an ok stage, but it would be extremely close to Wario Ware, and thus most likely wouldn't see play as Wario Ware is already the status quo and there are no need for any more CPs. But it would be a playable stage, yes.

Problem is it would be agonizingly bland and almost exactly akin to a stage we already have now, so it'd still get no play.

 

[omegablackmage]

reguardless it wouldn't be on, its almost identical to other stages platform wise. With the ice on the stage is unique, but not fit for competitive play.

 

[FrozenHobo]

they're most similar to BF, which as veril was so kind to point out has signifcant differences from summit+, even with the ice removed. as for trying to comapre the layout to WW, i think you had better look at the two again. the only similarieties is the small base and walljump-able sides. otherwise, the layout is signitficantly different.

you clearly favor a conservative stage list, which you should not allow impede your judgement of the stage or draw you into rationalizing why certain stages should not be used at all.

=/=

 

[omegablackmage]

i never mentioned wario ware.

conservative or not, its my opinion, and we don't need so many stages to be on the list, 5-7 starter stages, no more than 10 cps

 

[FrozenHobo]

i was responding to neko/th+ in that post as well.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I did, which is who he's directing it to.

 

[MK26]

you're complaining "it's bad because it's different, and if you change it, it's bad because it's the same". I'm sorry, but, frankly, shut up and learn the stage.

It's a unique counterpick. It's not that i like it because "it's fun" (which it is) or "it's gimmicky" (which it is), but because you can have a competitive match there and the best player will win. And by best player, i mean "the player that knows the characters, the matchups, and the stage better than his opponent"

You guys seem to want some competitive ideal where stage doesnt matter, but it always will. Summit+ doesnt break the system, so give it a f****** chance before you ban it.

 

[VietGeek]

You know if you're worried about certain smashes being too good on Ice due to sliding and hitboxes, you can simply change it so that the smash gives the character infinite friction having them stop on the dot like other smashes on Ice.

This would require work (obv), and naturally it's very likely to have undesirable side-effects elsewhere (like no momentum from dash cancel).

It would pretty much delay this set even more, and it comes down to whether or not people will support/play the stage to begin with. No point in making everything work out nicely for this stage alone only to have it collect dust.

And the stage does not a large effect on the outcome of a match up simply because you know how to maneuver the stage. I've played plenty of people on the older summit which has more ice on the base and ice on the platforms and they were able to adapt well enough to perform on the stage as well as they do on another stage in less than a few matches without knowing how to work the stage.

I don't think the issue of mobility and unfamiliarity is as much of an issue as what you're able to do with it once you've gotten accustomed to it.

When you've learned the mechanics of the stage you can start abusing retreating DC Fsmash for MK/Sonic (more safe and more preemptive...yay?), abuse momentum from dash cancels (particularly good for those with short initial dash animations like Sheik).

Ice changes a lot of small little components that add up to be very different from how the game is normally played on the many other stages. Unique? Yeah. Give it a chance? Sure why not (for me)? But the biggest issue here is will other people give the ****ed stage a chance?

It's a counterpick stage sure, but where do we draw the line at how skewed counterpicks can make match-ups be?

There's the issue of the stage's reception and impression, particularly upon newer players. This project makes itself to be rather serious and also expects people to take it seriously.

When people think of Brawl+'s goals, it's summed up (accurately or not) as "making Brawl better." What this entails is unclear I guess, but when someone plays this game in a side-tournament, and is counterpicked to this stage, it is going to bring the question of what this project's goals are (honestly or sarcastically responded as "making Brawl better") and probably also who is to say exactly what makes Brawl "better?"

I can see it now: "Who are the clowns that thought it was okay not only to ADD this stage, but ALSO make it legal?!" People can be extremely serious about Smash Brothers (>_>) and even the most far-fetched or over-exaggerated criticisms can hurt our...image...(what was i suppose to type here).

 

[omegablackmage]

well, we need to decide what constitutes a competitive stage. Why not rework every stage that's on brawl's disc to make them on the stage list?

 

[GHNeko]

Not all character's are capable of abusing slide based tactics. (Sonic's fsmash stops momentum for example so he can't abuse it on Summit)

For character's that do, good for them. Only the base of the stage has a small amount of ice and can only be abused while on the base on the ground. A bunch of these tactics that people are tossing like sliding fsmash abuse or sliding shield grabs will only be effective on ground opponents that don't see it coming, are grounded, and they're just standing there.

After playing on this stage constantly during Whobo 2 AND after Whobo 2 with the revised version, you can only abuse the sliding mechanic if you're at a distance, in which, an opponent should expect it and see it coming. If you're near them, wtf does it matter if you can slide or not.

If anything, by rolling towards your opponent as they charge a sliding smash or approach with a shield with the aim to grab, they have less options and are MORE vunerable than they work. If they're charging, they have to release and you can punish during lag. If they're in shield, oh well. the situation is reset.

It doesn't polarize match ups because the tactics that are exclusive to this stage all have flaws and can be thwarted with what...? 5 mins of practice after you know what's possible? If someone is putting pressure on you due to the ice, escape to the platforms where the Ice is no more! Still having trouble? Are you sure its because of the stage? Or is it because of your own ability OR even better, your own character choice.

Its a CP. It doesnt need to be needs to heavies or fatties. Just like Frigate doesnt need to be nice to tethers. And how Rainbow Cruise doesnt have to be nice to those who lack mobility and agility. Or how Skyworld doesnt have to be nice to those with terrible recoveries.

The mechanics of this stage don't require consistent practice or a relearning of your ground game at all. There are a few changes that all you have to do is keep in mind and apply when you need to.

Nothing about this stage screams POLARIZING LOL and it's not even that gimmicky anymore because the gimmick to the stage was reduce to a single floor.

Also, let not forget how all approaches based of sliding are beatable by spot dodges as well. Especially charged smashes.

 

[goodoldganon]

It's a unique counterpick. It's not that i like it because "it's fun" (which it is) or "it's gimmicky" (which it is), but because you can have a competitive match there and the best player will win. And by best player, i mean "the player that knows the characters, the matchups, and the stage better than his opponent"

Just stopped in for two things. First off, this is a silly argument. You can make this claim about any stage.^^^^ I still play decent number of 4 player matches and other fun casual matches as well as a host of 1v1s. I could CP any of you to an unmodified Spear Pillar and take you to school because I know the stage better, but that doesn't mean Spear Pillar is a competitive stage. Just because the strengths, weaknesses, tricks, and traps of Summit+ are knowable and exploitable doesn't mean the stage is legit. Every stage is like that and I'll bet my left nut I know more about the casual stages then anyone in the WBR.

This stage DOES require more practice to play on effectively at just a basic level then any other stage and it DOES require more practice to learn who does well and what to exploit. To ignore that fact is just silly. To assume that players should just 'shut up and learn the stage' is also silly because that argument can be made for any stage in this game. There is not a single level in Brawl or Brawl+ that I can't tell you guys to shut and learn to play because every single hazard in every single level is avoidable. Summit+ pushes the boundary too far and crosses into the field of stages that interfere too much with the general game.

Moving on, I think the major fault with Summit+ is not even how much it changes the ground game, or provides newer options to make unsafe moves safe. Viet perfectly summed it up and it is how this stage is going to be received by pros, new players, and frankly anyone that currently plays. This stage is incredibly different from any current stage you guys are talking about. To change the way a character basically moves is like saying that PS2 should be unfrozen because wind, ice, and electric were all the same thing principle (movement). Certain things are way to jarring of a change for people to want to try.

Making this stage a legal counterpick will turn off newcomers, people who play the 5$ side tournies and get counterpicked there, or anyone in between. Brawl+ needs and wants players and we can't just say 'well we don't want scrubs like that anyway' Initial impressions last with people for a long time. Though I have taught the Toledo scene how to deal with the stage and have had my fair of competitive 1v1s, the initial reactions still linger and come up while we play.

 

[GHNeko]

It is no where near more ridiculous than some of the other CPs we allow.

This stage does not require consistent practice to play on a basic level. You take a little time to get the feel for the level and get your baring on how to move on the stage and you're set. The stage requires more practice to learn and what to exploit, yes, AS DO PRETTY MUCH EVERY NOTABLE CP DOES AS WELL.

What the ****? Come on now.

 

[goodoldganon]

No stage is so truly complex it takes serious time to master. Stages aren't like trying to get good at Devil May Cry or Bayonetta. (Guess what I have been playing recently) Even the stages with the most jarring of changes (Spear Pillar, etc.) don't take weeks to master. Point still stand that this stage takes more time to play at a basic level then any other stage. Either way, my two major complaints with this stage still stand:

1. When did changing the way a character fundamentally moves become OK for a CP? There is a reason we froze PS2 at first and it was because it interfered with the basic movement of the game. There is a line on what is too radical for a CP.

2. The initial backlash this stage get ANYTIME it is played first in a competitive environment and the poor image that follows. Brawl+ is meant to be the better competitive game and regardless of this stages merits (or lack there of ZING) the WBR should not risk the negative image that will surely come with it. Brawl+ needs players above cool CPs.

 

[GHNeko]

There stages that change fundamental aspects of characters and how they function. This one just so happens to be one said stages.

This stage hasnt even been tested enough. I've got nothing but so so comments to "oh hey this is legit" and the occasional "i dont like it but it's legit as a CP" statements in Texas when I play with decent to top players here. A lot of negative backlash can also be chalked up to people simply not being used to something like that. Didn't you see how many people wanted to remove the wind from Pictoplus? I mean come on. There is nothing wrong with it except it blows your character's back. Just like DL64, yet no on really complained about that in Melee, nor would they even try to remove it if they had the power and they were working on a Melee+ project.

 

[Veril]

Moving on, I think the major fault with Summit+ is not even how much it changes the ground game, or provides newer options to make unsafe moves safe. Viet perfectly summed it up and it is how this stage is going to be received by pros, new players, and frankly anyone that currently plays. This stage is incredibly different from any current stage you guys are talking about. To change the way a character basically moves is like saying that PS2 should be unfrozen because wind, ice, and electric were all the same thing principle (movement). Certain things are way to jarring of a change for people to want to try.

Making this stage a legal counterpick will turn off newcomers, people who play the 5$ side tournies and get counterpicked there, or anyone in between. Brawl+ needs and wants players and we can't just say 'well we don't want scrubs like that anyway' Initial impressions last with people for a long time. Though I have taught the Toledo scene how to deal with the stage and have had my fair of competitive 1v1s, the initial reactions still linger and come up while we play.

This ^^ + everything I've said and quoted already.

Summit+ is gamechanging. You guys ignored my example because... well you really just said it was a bad example without actually refuting anything I've said. Or you claimed that the extreme qualities of Summit+ slipperiness are fine if its a CP, while failing to respond in any substantive way to the arguments against it. Summit+ isn't fine for tournament. I would not want Summit+ legal at any regional tournament.

The compromise I've seen suggested by several people is simply leave it in CP/Banned (in which case I would highly advise banned for anything larger than a local event) and not remove the ice. Glick and Blind both have supported this. This stage IS fun to play on, and removing the Ice would take away from that.


Seriously though, I'm not holding up the release to argue about Summit+ when its pretty clear from the PMs I've gotten that it would not be legal in its current form.

/Summit+ discussion

I'm going to edit the stage list now...

 

[GHNeko]

augahgklsjfsdfd the only way to prove its not "game-changing" is for people to actually play on the stage after a prolonged period of time.

 

[FrozenHobo]

for the love of god, will you peopel give me some kind of feed back on the no slip summit+. this happens every **** time; i post something new that i need tested and every single one of you ***** ignores me. and then when you finally do get around to looking at what i posted its either old or i'm trying to update as the argument is going on.

did any of you even look at my 75m fix? did any of you even bother looking at summit+ till the 7.0 fiasco?

and now you're doing it again, veril. you have completely ignored the non-slip pac and are running off to do your own **** thing leaving me to be completely ignored. i might as well not even post my ****, since none of you *** holes bothers to look at it half the time.

 

[GHNeko]

I've already given you feed back from it. <_<

 

[Veril]

I think the non-slip .pac is fine. I thought I'd already made that clear.

It doesn't have an identical platform layout to any of the existing stages nor does it have identical boundaries to any existing stage (iirc). Non-slip Summit+ is fine imo... if people are not opposed to the inclusion of an additional near neutral stage. I am not, personally, but I know VaNz and Glick are. CP/Ban slipping Summit+ is... okay for the time being. It will probably end up banned if I put it to a vote with the slipperiness on.

Frozen, would you prefer a CP/Banned Summit+ that would likely be eventually banned or a likely CP non-slip Summit? This isn't a rhetorical question. I genuinely want to know.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i don't recall you mentioning it, but i may have missed it. i'm still more peeved at the 75m thing.... not a one of you even downloaded it. it just feels like a similar thing is going on with the no-slip summit.