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Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

Minordeth

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
921
Looking through pools, and I’m stoked that Lord Snackington from the UAE is gonna be at Frostbite. He’s a Charizard/Megaman/Sonic main that has slowly, and inexplicably converted into a hilariously punishing Charizard. He’s PR’d number 1 in the UAE.

Here’s an entertaining set between him and the #10 PR’d player, a Bayo main.

 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
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May 7, 2009
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14,911
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Colorado
Lol, what if Leo picked up Robin for Bowser and DK? That's the kind of thing I could see Leo shocking everybody by doing. Probably not though. Robin has a future as an anti-fat grappler CP character- that's what I would be saying if characters like ZSS and Rosa weren't around to do that and everything else better than poor Robin.
 

Skeeter Mania

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Looking through pools, and I’m stoked that Lord Snackington from the UAE is gonna be at Frostbite. He’s a Charizard/Megaman/Sonic main that has slowly, and inexplicably converted into a hilariously punishing Charizard. He’s PR’d number 1 in the UAE.

Here’s an entertaining set between him and the #10 PR’d player, a Bayo main.

Huh, that aerial movement was so slick.

But I noticed there was one point the Bayonetta could've easily recovered from his position even when not 2-frame'd.

Lol, what if Leo picked up Robin for Bowser and DK? That's the kind of thing I could see Leo shocking everybody by doing. Probably not though. Robin has a future as an anti-fat grappler CP character- that's what I would be saying if characters like ZSS and Rosa weren't around to do that and everything else better than poor Robin.
Gotta have them Fire Emblem characters to add to his roster.
 
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Lord Dio

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As far as leo goes, yall are forgetting he has Corrin he can rely on if need be.

As for Frostbite, Let's Go Komo
 

Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
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Apr 26, 2016
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Sweden
As far as leo goes, yall are forgetting he has Corrin he can rely on if need be.
Yeah, why pick up yet another character for DK and Bowser (Robin) when he already has a really good Corrin? Regarding his Corrin though, has he used Corrin in any tournament since December 2017?
 

Laken64

Smash Journeyman
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As far as leo goes, yall are forgetting he has Corrin he can rely on if need be.

As for Frostbite, Let's Go Komo
And for those who don't know don't forget his sheik in the depths of his pockets... dang remember when Anti was the master counterpicker? Good times, good times.
 

Lord Dio

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Yeah, why pick up yet another character for DK and Bowser (Robin) when he already has a really good Corrin? Regarding his Corrin though, has he used Corrin in any tournament since December 2017?
To be fair, that's a more recent use of corrin than say, Nairo using zelda or Doc, or esam or salem using samus.
And for those who don't know don't forget his sheik in the depths of his pockets... dang remember when Anti was the master counterpicker? Good times, good times.
Speaking of anti and sheik, remember how months ago anti said he was switching to become a sheik main, and we haven't seen it once? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
EDIT: That was almost a year ago lol
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,207
Speaking of anti and sheik, remember how months ago anti said he was switching to become a sheik main, and we haven't seen it once? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
EDIT: That was almost a year ago lol
:lol: I remember that! It definitely proves that he is in it with the "Mario is not good" meme. :lol:
I wonder what changed his mind....
 

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
1,395
What does the corrin/bowser MU look like?
Decent? Corrin combos him and doesn't have to worry as much about edgeguarding and stuff, but Bowser's intangible tilts can be annoying and iirc Corrin has rather large grab combo %s. For what it's worth, Corrins seem to agree on even-slight advantage, while Bowsers have it as even-slight disadvantage. At the very least, Corrin-Bowser's apparently better than Marth-Bowser
 

Das Koopa

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EVO LINEUP

https://www.twitch.tv/redbullesports

Street Fighter V

Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

Tekken 7

BlazBlue Cross Tag Battle

Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2

Injustice 2

Super Smash Bros. Melee

Dragonball Fighters Z
 
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MarioManTAW

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
843
He still is. ESAM thinks otherwise, but LordMix still has better cumulative results than the other solo Bowsers, even if he is semi-active currently.
If you consider all-time, maybe, but factoring all placings and PGR (v3/v4) wins in PGR events in 2017, the current comparison of top solo Bowsers (grayed out results indicates nothing that would count on the PGR):
LordMix:
Placings:
S Tier:
33rd, DreamHack Atlanta 2017 (lost to Dr. Copter and Blank)
A Tier:
25th, Momocon 2017 (lost to Kameme and CaptainZack)
C Tier:
5th, Gwinnett Brawl February 2017 (lost to Neos and NovaPixl)

No PGR Wins
Deluxemenu:
Placings:
S Tier:
33rd, CEO 2017 (lost to Manny and Raito)
49th, 2GGC: Fire Emblem Saga (lost to komorikiri and Pugwest)
A Tier:
9th, DreamHack Austin 2017 (lost to Konga and ESAM)
B Tier:
9th, Low Tier City 5 (lost to Larry Lurr and Abadango)
C Tier:
13th, Austin's Really Feeling It 16 (lost to Megafox and Whispy)
17th, No Fun Allowed (lost to Twi and Lima)
17th, Clutch City Clash (lost to Elegant and DQ'd vs L.U.C.Y)


Wins:
Zinoto (DreamHack Austin 2017)
Javi (CEO 2017)
Kisha:
Placings:
A Tier:
17th, Umebura Japan Major (lost to Eim and Chanshu)
B Tier:
9th, SGC (lost to 9B and Umeki)
17th, Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier (lost to Jill and Nietono)
17th, Umebura 27 (lost to Raito and Edge)
33rd, Umebura 29 (lost to Eim and takera)
17th, Umebura 30 (lost to Matcha and Pichi)

C Tier:
33rd, Karisuma Tokaigi Qualifier (lost to 9B and OCEAN)
33rd, Umebura 26 (lost to Some and Eim)
17th, Sumabato 17 (lost to Earth and Atelier)
13th, Karisuma 13 (lost to Earth and Ri-ma)
13th, Sumabato 18 (lost to Atelier and 9B)

3rd, Karisuma 14 (lost to 9B and Taiheita)
9th, Umebura 28 (lost to bAhuto and Brood)
33rd, Sumabato 20 (lost to HIKARU and Nishiya)
13th, Rikabura 8 (lost to KEN and Brood)


Wins:
Raito (Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier)
Tsu (Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier)
Ranai (SGC)
Nietono (Umebura 28)
Edge (Sumabato 20)
Took way longer than it should have, but I wanted to be thorough.
 

Minordeth

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Messages
921
Huh, that aerial movement was so slick.

But I noticed there was one point the Bayonetta could've easily recovered from his position even when not 2-frame'd.
Oh, yeah, the Bayo player dropped some stuff for sure. Like, Charizard lands right in front of you and you spaghetti a punish. Okay.

There was some stuff that was pretty gold, though.

- Charizard can bait stuff, like Witch Time, pretty hard with his extra jump. Now add that to Bair and you have a WTi punish that kills stupid early.

- Zard’s Usmash beats all of Bayo’s air options. It’s also frame 6. Snack powered through the Bayo standard ABK from the ledge, for instance. He generally played super reactive with Usmash and it paid off.

- Bayo has to be weirdly careful in situations where she doesn’t have to normally. Fly can super armor through Nair for edge guard attempts, and Flare Blitz makes Witch Time a bit of liability if Bayo is at moderately high percents.

Charizard is a weird character.
 

Pyrover

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
56
I'm guessing it's an edgeguarding situation for those two. Rosa kinda gets walled if you can put sex kicks between her and the ledge, and they can do that super well.
 
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Yonder

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I'm going with the safe bet and saying MKLeo will win Frostbite. I just can't see anyone up to his caliber now that Zero is gone. I mean, maybe Dabuz or Salem can do something if he goes Uber defense...but MKLeo is just #1 now and not very prone to upsets.

Elegant could make an upset against MKleo,but he gets mutilated by Rosa everytime so he'd have to avoid Rayquaza, Kirihara, and Dabuz in bracket...yikes.
 

Nathan Richardson

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Charizard is a weird character.
Charizard has some odd quirks. Some moves like his dash attack can hit one character and keep going to hit multiple characters. Same with his smashes, all of his smashes can hit multiple characters simultaneously when they're along the smash attack's hurtbox. (it's also a reason I don't think rosalina is a +3 like Dabuz says, it's a relatively easy thing to hit both luma and rosalina at the same time.)
His double jump can bait things out, turn zard around at the last minute and have you eating a bair if you decide to chase (though that's usually the reason everyone simply attacks zard when he goes to the air instead of trying a counter move) and as you previously stated, the super armor on moves like fly (and rock smash if you're not packing some good power to break that rock yourself you'll get trashed by rock smash).
Still Zard falls under that 'looks straightforward but really isn't' type of character, you can easily say he's just another super heavyweight but several of his moves say otherwise.
 

Minordeth

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
921
Dabuz's newest MU chart:

Huh. This is a bit more nuanced, and the difference between this and his last chart is interesting. Dabuz has this tendency to try to compensate for his skill when he thinks about match ups. It’s fine, of course, to try to be objective, but I feel he trends towards the pessimistic side.

Anyway:

Notable new winners:
Peach, Greninja, and ZSS went to slight disadvantage for Rosa from even.

Pika and Fox went to even from slight disadvantage.

Sonic went from slight advantage to even, I’m guessing solely due to his sets with KEN.

Bayo and Cloud are worse, but I’m still perplexed that he puts Bayo on the same level as Cloud. The implication from his sets would be that he either outskills all the Bayos by a good margin or they aren’t implementing tech that he knows they should. Could be both, I guess.
 

theMichael

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 18, 2015
Messages
20
I'm going with the safe bet and saying MKLeo will win Frostbite. I just can't see anyone up to his caliber now that Zero is gone. I mean, maybe Dabuz or Salem can do something if he goes Uber defense...but MKLeo is just #1 now and not very prone to upsets.

Elegant could make an upset against MKleo,but he gets mutilated by Rosa everytime so he'd have to avoid Rayquaza, Kirihara, and Dabuz in bracket...yikes.
Leo will not be at Frostbite - he will be in Japan at Tokaigi
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
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Maryland
Kirby in -3?

Doesnt Rosa give Kirby a pretty broke copy ability in the MU tho?
It's not broken, but def useful. I would personally put Kirby alongside Luigi or something, but the degenerate play is basically Rosa's ability to avoid Kirby altogether. Her jump height, airspeed, aerial drift, and disjoints are good enough to the point where you're still guessing even if Rosa doesn't have Luma. So it's like - yeah Kirby can kill Luma, but Rosa also just doesn't have to fight him.

Of everything Rosa does, I personally find the walling part super easy to manage. But there's very little to do if she commits to running. So triplats are an auto-ban here.

If she has to fight you, there's definitely an opportunity for counterplay. Which is why the MU is one of my personal favorites. But sometimes she just... never fights.

And Luma Shot is actually less useful if she doesn't have Luma with her.
 

NINTENDO Galaxy

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So with the recent TMNT reveal for Injustice 2, do you guys think their community can avoid the problem that we have?

I doubt that they will not be legal.

The article says that the characters are picked based on that game's equipment system. As for online, the characters are selected seperately.

Link: https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2018...urtles-injustice-2-gameplay-trailer-released/ - This seems to have an idea.

I hope our community can learn from this.

Edit: Welp I was totally wrong. Here is the real reason.

https://twitter.com/Kizzercrate/status/961302994003341313

So much for jumping the gun.
 
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Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
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Apr 26, 2016
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Sweden
Let's talk about Bowser and Donkey Kong. Dabuz puts both in -3. If this is the case (and I, frankly, don't find it too implausible), then my assessment of Donkey Kong and Bowser is correct, and they're not top 25. Bowser and DK have both done much more as counter-pick characters rather than solo characters, but counter-pick potential isn't really relevant when it comes to tier lists. People see Bowser and DK do incredible things with their kill throws, but let's not forget that these characters have some pretty bad MU vs several top tiers and high tiers (-2 and potentially even -3 MUs), making them not really solo viable and not that great. Toon Link, Greninja, Mega Man, and Villager have much better solo potential than DK and Bowser. At least they can land (to some extent).
 

WiFi

Smash Journeyman
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348
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In the Abyss.
Greninja beating Rosa is a surprise. Whenever I play Rosa, I just use Luma jank to wall him out. Although, Shadow-Sneak destroys Luma.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,207
I'm going with the safe bet and saying MKLeo will win Frostbite. I just can't see anyone up to his caliber now that Zero is gone. I mean, maybe Dabuz or Salem can do something if he goes Uber defense...but MKLeo is just #1 now and not very prone to upsets.

Elegant could make an upset against MKleo,but he gets mutilated by Rosa everytime so he'd have to avoid Rayquaza, Kirihara, and Dabuz in bracket...yikes.
Leo pretty much got the download on Elegant after the Winners Finals match in GTX. After the tournament, he proceeds to solidly 3-0 Elegant in a local with his Marth, that even forced Elegant to switch to Charizard in game 3. Rosalina destroys Luigi in the matchup so that is also an issue Elegant needs to deal with in Frostbite. Leo is in Japan though.
Let's talk about Bowser and Donkey Kong. Dabuz puts both in -3. If this is the case (and I, frankly, don't find it too implausible), then my assessment of Donkey Kong and Bowser is correct, and they're not top 25. Bowser and DK have both done much more as counter-pick characters rather than solo characters, but counter-pick potential isn't really relevant when it comes to tier lists. People see Bowser and DK do incredible things with their kill throws, but let's not forget that these characters have some pretty bad MU vs several top tiers and high tiers (-2 and potentially even -3 MUs), making them not really solo viable and not that great. Toon Link, Greninja, Mega Man, and Villager have much better solo potential than DK and Bowser. At least they can land (to some extent).
Bowser: that is correct. I don't think he is top 25. DK, however, is actually did decently well as a solo character (thanks to Hikaru and Konga), as the character relies on less grabs and has better (though still not very good) defensive capabilities. DK has less landing options than Bowser, but Bowser's landing options is not that great either.
And he changed his opinion on Ness again.

Also, I wonder what made him move Falcon from possibly even to slightly in Rosa's favour?
Ness, while having his recovery issues amplified in the Rosa matchup, can at least abuse her tall frame. Some Ness's has beaten top Rosa's in the past, so in comparison to the -3 characters who gets completely walled out by Rosa, it somewhat makes sense.
Falcon gets comboed and walled by Rosa hard (though not to the same extent as Ness), combined with Dabuz having better matchup experience against Falcon, resulted in his change of opinion.
I am a bit suprised that he put DDD as -1 instead of -3 though.
 
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Frihetsanka

Smash Champion
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Bowser: that is correct. I don't think he is top 25. DK, however, is actually did decently well as a solo character (thanks to Hikaru and Konga), as the character relies on less grabs and has better (though still not very good) defensive capabilities. DK has less landing options than Bowser, but Bowser's landing options is not that great either.
Have you looked at Hikaru's run at Civil War? Outside of pools (which doesn't matter too much), he didn't run into a single Zero Suit Samus, Bayonetta, or Sonic. He got 3-0 by Abadango's Rosalina (!) and 3-1 by kirihira's Rosalina. He beat two Sheiks (commonly viewed as just -1 for DK), ESAM (who used Pikachu and got janked and then switched to his Samus), Tsu (who used Lucario and Ryu). It's a good run, sure, but it's also a somewhat lucky run. DK is held back by several significantly bad MUs, more than Mega Man, Villager, Greninja, and Toon Link.

I'm curious, which relevant MUs do you think DK does better than Bowser in?
 

Skeeter Mania

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Ness, while having his recovery issues amplified in the Rosa matchup, can at least abuse her tall frame. Some Ness's has beaten top Rosa's in the past, so in comparison to the -3 characters who gets completely walled out by Rosa, it somewhat makes sense.
And you missed my point. In his previous MU chart, he had Ness at -1.
 

ReVerbIsSuperb

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Nov 27, 2017
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Greninja beating Rosa is a surprise. Whenever I play Rosa, I just use Luma jank to wall him out. Although, Shadow-Sneak destroys Luma.
I find the progression of the Greninja vs Rosalina MU over time to be very interesting. Near the earlier portion of this game, this used to be commonly considered a losing MU for him. As Greninja's metagame progressed and people realized they were using the wrong tools to tumble luma (not to mention those same tools got buffed in later patches among other things) it seems to have settled on even. Now seeing Dabuz toy with the idea of Greninja winning is something I didn't expect to see but judging from how the character works, I can see the concept. Not the 1st to consider this theory tho, ik Venia & Elexiao have in the past.

I've mentioned this before but Greninja has a lot of tools to deal with luma that don't make him deviate from his normal gameplan or do something drastic just to kill it. Bair (Last Hit or 1st Hit When Close), Dash Attack, and Jabs (Rapid & Jab 3) all tumble luma at 0 and his general spacing and comboing gameplan means he'll throw these out often anyways. Bair and Dash Attack can crossup and be safer while also dealing with luma.

Gravitational Pull doesn't shut down shurikens and isn't always the best option for her at certain ranges. If Greninja has a decent lead it's not a big deal because she still has to approach through them unless she wants to get timed out. If it gets baited, a quick Greninja fthrow can separate and allow him to Up-Tilt Bair luma offstage. And if just a couple shurikens gets through at luma, it allows Fair to start launching it on top of the move already being really annoying for Rosalina to deal with.

He can run off stage as Rosa's recovering and bair luma away or he can ledge trap all her options and remove luma with bair no matter what she chooses. Even if he doesn't always outright combo Rosalina to death once she loses luma, if Greninja maintains advantage state and pressures her properly, he can often keep a strong positional advantage and just kill luma as it spawns again with his normal moves he uses to put on force. Dash Attack -> RAR Bair can pretty much kill luma almost anywhere on stage due to how well it pops up and launches.

Realistically, Rosa shouldn't have luma for most of the match and even when she does, his mobility allows him to maneuver around and bait her into committing to something since luma jabbing in place isn't too hard for him to deal with. And the minute she does, he can jump in and pressure with aerials. The MU gives off a lighter MK type vibe to it where Greninja has an arsenal of tools to deal with luma while also having the mobility to do it over and over again on top of pushing advantage well whether through juggles or offstage play which messes up her already bad disadvantage state and is scary because she's so light.

 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
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May 7, 2009
Messages
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Dabuz's newest MU chart:

I'm glad to see Link moved to +1 for Rosa. Link's tanky and powerful. 1 read and rosa dies at 80%.
I'm curious, which relevant MUs do you think DK does better than Bowser in?
Link has a slightly harder time vs DK. Link out-zones both Bowser and DK but Bowser has a frame 8 JS, frame 7 jab (same as Link) and is a worse zone breaker than DK. DK has a faster boxing game, ground to air transition and much better air speed than Link. DK's also harder to punish for end lag. Link's stab Uair beats everything bowser has from below and he can throw bombs at landings safely so DK's air speed is more advantageous.

Ganon loses much harder to DK than Bowser for similar reasons. DK slaps ganon around and DK's limb intangibility on early frames matters; DTilt arm intangibility frames 1-9 is why he can box with sword characters. DK's limbs and head on Uair are swords, unlike Bowser who has them as hurt boxes except on the hitbubble frames. Sure Bowser has fire breath but it's frame 23 faf 78 earliest and has minuscule payoff in footsies. DK has a great boxing game; he was a secret boss in Punch Out, lol.

PS
I know they're not relevant but serve as examples to DK's stronger aspects vs zoners and boxers. Bowser has good specials and OoS but these strengths aren't big factors in certain types of MUs.
 
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MistressRemilia

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Feb 25, 2015
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425
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Let's talk about Bowser and Donkey Kong. Dabuz puts both in -3. If this is the case (and I, frankly, don't find it too implausible), then my assessment of Donkey Kong and Bowser is correct, and they're not top 25. Bowser and DK have both done much more as counter-pick characters rather than solo characters, but counter-pick potential isn't really relevant when it comes to tier lists. People see Bowser and DK do incredible things with their kill throws, but let's not forget that these characters have some pretty bad MU vs several top tiers and high tiers (-2 and potentially even -3 MUs), making them not really solo viable and not that great. Toon Link, Greninja, Mega Man, and Villager have much better solo potential than DK and Bowser. At least they can land (to some extent).
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your thoughts, but keep in mind that, more often than enough, a matchup chart projects what each matchup SHOULD turn out, and not how it WILL turn out. Reminder that HIKARU's first appearance overseas earned him a win against, surprise surprise, Falln, and 2-0 even, if that wasn't proof enough of how easy you can choke this matchup.

More on that: The extremely strong advantage state of the grappler characters, and to an extent, other characters like Ryu, makes them capable of applying much more pressure out of nothing than other characters. With that in mind, the opposing player may be seeking the safest options out there, often trading any kind of diverse play. But these players are not A.Is, they're bound to come out of their shell of safety & commit to something once they feel like they've conditioned their opponent enough into making something dumb just to get out of that state. With that somewhat respectable strategy on paper that's applied by many players comes one major flaw: You just potentially gave them what they want. This widespread strategy would often require enough time that your camping of any kind could get busted by these far from optionless characters ( Ryu's shield pressure, Bowser's command grab, DK's decent fall speed for empty hop purposes and fantastic Bair for poking purposes ), or being quite patient, which very few players are in the current state of Smash 4. Thus, you're kind of just hoping what you've done will suffice to get in an advantageous position where these characters will indeed suck, but are once again not optionless. Even for the best of the best characters at f*cking up the heavies can't guarantee taking their stocks, far from it.

That's just an example of a situation where your eyes may be thinking that the grapplers are going through a situation about as hopeless as platform camping Little Mac when at Low to Mid%, but it may not be the case and this is all part of neutral play that could turn out as good for one than the other, as one sided as it may sound in the first place. This kind of situation just reinforce how easy it is to choke the grappler matchup. They SHOULD be getting f*cked up, but it's still entirely up to you. Since these situations are more common for them than for your character, they also have more knowledge of all the baits they could be using against you. In a way, you're engaging in a terrain that, despite being the weakest area of your opponent, they should have mastered far more than you, if they do want to beat players like you. There's a lot of these cases in Smash 4: The " This is free vs This could be a huge pain in the a*s to deal with " where players on the 1st category will mainly practice their advantage state, while the others will practice everything. That's why Meta Knight loses so much to floaties.

Anyway, all of this exemplified talk leads me into saying that: It's unarguable that the heavies have some less than ideal matchups, more than the characters you'd expect to see around where they are on most tier lists. However, with the sheer amount of pressure they apply by virtue of their insanely rewarding moves, they're more likely to clutch out these bad matchups than anyone else on the cast. I think the same could be applied to Ryu, Falcon, Luigi, and to an extent, Meta Knight. These are more likely to beat a good player of their worst matchup than Pit is, despite Pit's worst matchup probably being better ( Bowser/DK in mind ) or as bad ( The rest of the characters listed ) as them.

Tl;Dr You're bound to do what the grappler wants you to do to some extent, and if you're playing the whole patience game wrong, you might have given the grappler the tools to bait you into a commitment that will get him his rewards. Grapplers are almost by definition the characters that can clutch bad matchups the most, along with other characters with extremely strong advantage states. While they could be " figured out " and suffer a huge drop in results, i don't think this is the case for DK or Bowser. Not enough players have reached a level of confidence to overwhelm the heavies & render them inefficient. I think that MKLeo's, currently a contender for best player in the world, multiple losses against heavies is a testament to that ( Although he's getting better at it )
 
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Minordeth

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
921
More Frostbite Players to Look Out For:

Karna - After a bit of a hiatus, Karna, the #2 PR’d player for Texas came back with something to prove. An example: at Shockwave 165, coming from Losers, he 6-0’d Lima’s Bayo in Grand Finals. He’s apparently been discussing Sheik stuff with Blank for Frostbite. Speaking of:

Blank - From Sheik nerd theory crafting and grinding to actually getting some wins and results at the regional level, she’s now PR’d at #3 for South Florida behind ESAM and MVD.

Frozen - the Corrin main from NY has decided to pick up Mewtwo for the MUs he hates with Corrin. While he is still improving with his Mewtwo, it seems like a potent combo and he has taken both Light and Dabuz to last hit G5 recently.

Bonus! Here’s Karna letting Lima catch his hands for about 20 minutes:

 

my_T

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
352
I'm glad to see Link moved to +1 for Rosa. Link's tanky and powerful. 1 read and rosa dies at 80%.

Link has a slightly harder time vs DK. Link out-zones both Bowser and DK but Bowser has a frame 8 JS, frame 7 jab (same as Link) and is a worse zone breaker than DK. DK has a faster boxing game, ground to air transition and much better air speed than Link. DK's also harder to punish for end lag. Link's stab Uair beats everything bowser has from below and he can throw bombs at landings safely so DK's air speed is more advantageous.

Ganon loses much harder to DK than Bowser for similar reasons. DK slaps ganon around and DK's limb intangibility on early frames matters; DTilt arm intangibility frames 1-9 is why he can box with sword characters. DK's limbs and head on Uair are swords, unlike Bowser who has them as hurt boxes except on the hitbubble frames. Sure Bowser has fire breath but it's frame 23 faf 78 earliest and has minuscule payoff in footsies. DK has a great boxing game; he was a secret boss in Punch Out, lol.

PS
I know they're not relevant but serve as examples to DK's stronger aspects vs zoners and boxers. Bowser has good specials and OoS but these strengths aren't big factors in certain types of MUs.
DK's arm intangibility starts at frame 1 but the hitbox still isn't active until frame 7.

DK is not a better zone breaker. People are still forgetting about Bowser's jab 1 which has intangibility and 2 frames less end-lag than DK's dtilt. Bowser also has a faster dash, a better dash to shield, and a way better dash grab. How does one come to the conclusion that DK is a better zone breaker?
 

Galaxeon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
56
I'm going with the safe bet and saying MKLeo will win Frostbite. I just can't see anyone up to his caliber now that Zero is gone. I mean, maybe Dabuz or Salem can do something if he goes Uber defense...but MKLeo is just #1 now and not very prone to upsets.

Elegant could make an upset against MKleo,but he gets mutilated by Rosa everytime so he'd have to avoid Rayquaza, Kirihara, and Dabuz in bracket...yikes.
MKLeo is not going to Frostbite, he's in Japan for Tokaigi.
Wich sounds just as exciting to be honest, considering how he just steamrolled everybody at Evo Japan and the qualifier he won after that to get to Tokaigi. Also we might get our first proper Leo VS Nairo showdown of the season, while other players at Frostbite could have a chance to shine if Dabuz and especially Salem's Bayonetta isn't casting too much shadow. And at the same time it could be a first big win this season for Salem too. This weekend is very promising!
 
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