Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Tokaigi 2018. It's in 2 weeks apparantly.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I know what wavedashing, dashdancing and perfect pivoting are but heaven help the zard that tries these things. God knows I can't do it online even with good connections and even if I could other characters could do it better.
The thing I seem to do well is b reverse rock smash and that's it.

 

[Minordeth]

M-M-MEGA POST:

There are plenty of ATs that are underutilized but super worth learning, and can really open up a character. I mean, yeah, if you boil fundamentals down to “choosing good options” then learning more options expands your fundamentals.

An example:
Look at when Leo started making waves in the national scene. He already had good fundamentals, but what thing stuck out to commentators and players? His perfect pivoting. People were freaking out.

Ironically, I think he was still working out how to incorporate PPing into his decision making.

He would frequently perfect pivot back into... well nothing. It was bait sometimes, but he also got punished frequently because the PP back was an empty threat. It looked like a habit that he was trying to turn into a tool.

Now, you can see him combine it with standing runs, empty hops, and dash dancing to threaten space because now he combines it with jab, or dtilt, or Ftilt, etc. He uses it to bait and approach and punish while staying safe.

A newer example:
I remember watching Zero commentate over Genesis 5, and he kept wondering why Salem wasn’t trying to camp or Witch Time Leo that much.

“Why isn’t he trying to camp him?”

“I wish I got to play against this version of Salem.”

What he was missing was that Leo was using Marth’s dash speed, good pivot, and ground game, to constantly threaten and bait Salem into using Bullet Arts, Bullet Climax, and threaten Witch Time baits.

If Salem used bullet arts, Leo was already in (and slightly out of) range to dash in and punish on reaction. If Salem tried to run in for the dash grab, Leo was ready to PP away to whiff punish, or shield and punish heel slide.

Salem knew this, which is why he wasn’t liberal with his Witch Time baits, and didn’t attempt much nairplaning or camping.

Leo’s fundamentals were improved with his incorporation of some advanced movement options. But the key was learning how to merge them into his fundamentals.

 

[Finh009]

Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier 2 (183 Entrants) (Kanto Japan)

1st. Shu
2nd. Zackray
3rd. Tsu-
4th. takera
5th. Abadango
5th. Raito
7th. DNG | Kameme
7th. Repo
9th. Eim
9th. Kome
9th. Shogun
9th. T
13th. Es
13th. Rain
13th. Tarakotori
13th. Towa

Spoiler: Rest of Top 32

17th. Compact
17th. Earth
17th. Kie
17th. Kuro
17th. Mangalitza
17th. Mao
17th. Ri-ma
17th. RSZ | Umeki
25th. bAhuto
25th. Brood
25th. FILIP
25th. Kishiru
25th. Lc
25th. Nyanko
25th. RYO
25th. Yuzu

With that the Final Lineup for Tokaigi is:

NRG | Nairo
MSF | Larry Lurr
CLG | VoiD
C9 | Ally
Echo Fox | MVG | MkLeo
KEN
Choco
DNG | Nietono
Kirihara
Rizeasu
Ron
Shuton
shky
Shu
Zackray
Tsu-

 

[The-Technique]

So Abadango didn't qualify...damn that must sting for him, especially considering the improvements he's made in his results as of late.

Apparently he lost 1-2 vs Takera in Losers. Aren't Bayo and Mewtwo both tough matchups for Ryu?

 

[Rizen]

No one said to not learn ATs; the point was a player with good fundamentals will do better than someone with bad fundamentals who focuses on ATs. We had this problem in Brawl all the time, people would see youtube combo videos and start using DACUS as an approach because it works on scrubs. A simple jab or grab beats it.

Back to SSB4 look at all the players who are better at the game but worse at certain character's specifics yet place better in tournaments: ZeRo>Zinoto for Diddy, Larry Lurr and tweek iirc>DKWill for DK, T>Scizor for Link...

You can and should practice PPing with Charizard but will get beaten if you don't know the basics of pokes, spacing attacks, punishes, etc.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So Abadango didn't qualify...damn that must sting for him, especially considering the improvements he's made in his results as of late.

Apparently he lost 1-2 vs Takera in Losers. Aren't Bayo and Mewtwo both tough matchups for Ryu?

Considering Ryu's learning curve and odd strengths and weaknesses (of course leaning towards the former), his matchup spread and individual confirmed matchups are a little obscure.

 

[WiFi]

Tsu beat Takera? Last time I checked, Ryu was one of Lucario's hardest matchups, considering Ryu fights at close range, kills early so Lucario can't play with rage and aura, and out-frame datas Lucario hard. Well, then again, Tsu is a Top 35 player in terms of skill, but overcoming a 6:4 matchup like that at the top level is impressive, to say the least.

 

[Nobie]

https://twitter.com/PG_juddy96/status/959719752368345088

Rizeasu is coming to Hyrule Saga.

Get ready for some wild results.

 

[Heracr055]

The Bayo MU isn't all that bad for Ryu. He can still kill her early. Ryus just need to play patiently and grab more.
The M2 MU doesn't have a strong consensus from the Ryus iirc.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Tsu beat Takera? Last time I checked, Ryu was one of Lucario's hardest matchups, considering Ryu fights at close range, kills early so Lucario can't play with rage and aura, and out-frame datas Lucario hard. Well, then again, Tsu is a Top 35 player in terms of skill, but overcoming a 6:4 matchup like that at the top level is impressive, to say the least.

According to Tsu, Ryu isn't even a bottom 13 MU for Lucario. He thinks it's even. Source: https://twitter.com/tkmtbs/status/931995376738975744

Takera thinks it's 55:45 in Ryu's favor, which means it's just a slight advantage for Ryu. Either way Tsu winning isn't that impressive, especially if the MU turns out to be even. Lucario is a pretty good character, after all, probably worthy of top 20.

 

[The_Bookworm]

According to Tsu, Ryu isn't even a bottom 13 MU for Lucario. He thinks it's even. Source: https://twitter.com/tkmtbs/status/931995376738975744

Takera thinks it's 55:45 in Ryu's favor, which means it's just a slight advantage for Ryu. Either way Tsu winning isn't that impressive, especially if the MU turns out to be even. Lucario is a pretty good character, after all, probably worthy of top 20.

I personally consider Lucario exactly 20th.
As I said before, Ryu's matchups are .... weird.

 

[Deleted member]

Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier 2 (183 Entrants) (Kanto Japan)

1st. Shu
2nd. Zackray
3rd. Tsu-
4th. takera
5th. Abadango
5th. Raito
7th. DNG | Kameme
7th. Repo
9th. Eim
9th. Kome
9th. Shogun
9th. T
13th. Es
13th. Rain
13th. Tarakotori
13th. Towa

Spoiler: Rest of Top 32

17th. Compact
17th. Earth
17th. Kie
17th. Kuro
17th. Mangalitza
17th. Mao
17th. Ri-ma
17th. RSZ | Umeki
25th. bAhuto
25th. Brood
25th. FILIP
25th. Kishiru
25th. Lc
25th. Nyanko
25th. RYO
25th. Yuzu

With that the Final Lineup for Tokaigi is:

NRG | Nairo
MSF | Larry Lurr
CLG | VoiD
C9 | Ally
Echo Fox | MVG | MkLeo
KEN
Choco
DNG | Nietono
Kirihara
Rizeasu
Ron
Shuton
shky
Shu
Zackray
Tsu-

Wow, there is a lot of Bayonetta players in Japan. Top ones at least. I think the winner is most likely going to be either Nairo, Larry Lurr, MKLeo or Ken. Each have different skills ( KEN being really good at camping with Sonic ), and the rest just being aggressive with their characters and constantly making a burst.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Wow, there is a lot of Bayonetta players in Japan. Top ones at least. I think the winner is most likely going to be either Nairo, Larry Lurr, MKLeo or Ken. Each have different skills ( KEN being really good at camping with Sonic ), and the rest just being aggressive with their characters and constantly making a burst.

Similar predictions happened in EVO Japan, and KEN and Choco got 5th. Anything could happen at this point.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

M-M-MEGA POST:

There are plenty of ATs that are underutilized but super worth learning, and can really open up a character. I mean, yeah, if you boil fundamentals down to “choosing good options” then learning more options expands your fundamentals.

An example:
Look at when Leo started making waves in the national scene. He already had good fundamentals, but what thing stuck out to commentators and players? His perfect pivoting. People were freaking out.

Ironically, I think he was still working out how to incorporate PPing into his decision making.

He would frequently perfect pivot back into... well nothing. It was bait sometimes, but he also got punished frequently because the PP back was an empty threat. It looked like a habit that he was trying to turn into a tool.

Now, you can see him combine it with standing runs, empty hops, and dash dancing to threaten space because now he combines it with jab, or dtilt, or Ftilt, etc. He uses it to bait and approach and punish while staying safe.

A newer example:
I remember watching Zero commentate over Genesis 5, and he kept wondering why Salem wasn’t trying to camp or Witch Time Leo that much.

“Why isn’t he trying to camp him?”

“I wish I got to play against this version of Salem.”

What he was missing was that Leo was using Marth’s dash speed, good pivot, and ground game, to constantly threaten and bait Salem into using Bullet Arts, Bullet Climax, and threaten Witch Time baits.

If Salem used bullet arts, Leo was already in (and slightly out of) range to dash in and punish on reaction. If Salem tried to run in for the dash grab, Leo was ready to PP away to whiff punish, or shield and punish heel slide.

Salem knew this, which is why he wasn’t liberal with his Witch Time baits, and didn’t attempt much nairplaning or camping.

Leo’s fundamentals were improved with his incorporation of some advanced movement options. But the key was learning how to merge them into his fundamentals.

You just took what I said and broke it down further. I wasn't separating tech and fundamentals, I was highlighting how related they are. Leo was able to choose more good options thanks to him leveling up his execution to properly use PP in a way that enhances his gameplay (just like what you were saying), and this caused his play to be more flexible and malleable.

No one said to not learn ATs; the point was a player with good fundamentals will do better than someone with bad fundamentals who focuses on ATs. We had this problem in Brawl all the time, people would see youtube combo videos and start using DACUS as an approach because it works on scrubs. A simple jab or grab beats it.

Back to SSB4 look at all the players who are better at the game but worse at certain character's specifics yet place better in tournaments: ZeRo>Zinoto for Diddy, Larry Lurr and tweek iirc>DKWill for DK, T>Scizor for Link...

You can and should practice PPing with Charizard but will get beaten if you don't know the basics of pokes, spacing attacks, punishes, etc.

I wasn't in opposition lol, I just wanted to show the relationship between the two.

Actually, I think theres a huge misunderstanding here

I say execution and tech skill, you guys instantly think "techniques." well, sure they relate, better execution means able to use more tech. But, that's not the only thing I was inferring towards.

ZeRo Tweek Larry Leo and other top top players have plenty of execution/tech, pleeeenty. They do exactly what they want to input. there's no thinking on how to do something, they just do it, because they practiced their character to that extent.

I used PP and extended dash dancing as an example of refined execution, but thats not the only example. being able to RAR Bair consistently as Doc Mario/Mario, and know exactly where to space It, is a good example of refined execution. Being able to weave in the air exactly how you think is another one. being able to dribble your top as ROB consistently is another one. execution means doing stuff without much of failure, which is massively related to fundamentals.


Like, better execution = being able to do more moves consistently = more options. Thats what I was saying. Fundamentals is a combo of knowledge and execution.

This post feels messy smh.

 

[WiFi]

I personally consider Lucario exactly 20th.
As I said before, Ryu's matchups are .... weird.

Yeah, Ryu is a very unique character, to say the least. Lucario is definitely top 20 though. I can't see him lower than high tier.

 

[Minordeth]

You just took what I said and broke it down further. I wasn't separating tech and fundamentals, I was highlighting how related they are. Leo was able to choose more good options thanks to him leveling up his execution to properly use PP in a way that enhances his gameplay (just like what you were saying), and this caused his play to be more flexible and malleable.

I’m confused? I wasn’t arguing against you (or Rizen )? I didn’t say anything about you separating tech and fundamentals?

I read both your posts and decided to give some real world examples of what it means to actually implement tech into gameplay.

On a forum, there are way more lurkers than posters, and I try to write things that also address those players as well.

The unsaid questions I was addressing was “okay, so what does that expanded gameplay actually look like? How would I do it?”

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I’m confused? I wasn’t arguing against you (or Rizen )? I didn’t say anything about you separating tech and fundamentals?

I read both your posts and decided to give some real world examples of what it means to actually implement tech into gameplay.

On a forum, there are way more lurkers than posters, and I try to write things that also address those players as well.

The unsaid questions I was addressing was “okay, so what does that expanded gameplay actually look like? How would I do it?”

It’s because of this:

I mean, yeah, if you boil fundamentals down to “choosing good options”

Which felt like you were not really agreeing with it. It was my Interpretation that you weren’t really feeling it. The phrase being put in quotation marks made it look like that anyway.

But nvm I was trippin lol.

 

[|RK|]

The Bayo MU isn't all that bad for Ryu. He can still kill her early. Ryus just need to play patiently and grab more.
The M2 MU doesn't have a strong consensus from the Ryus iirc.

Killing early isn't as big of an MU maker.

Ryu kills Rosa even earlier, and we all know how tragic that MU is for different reasons. Ryu is a large body, easy to play with in disadvantage. He has no means of forcing an approach or approaching safely. His run speed is average and his ability to chase in the air is tragic.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Yeah the problem with that chart is certain top/high tier character players tend to be overly optimistic. It has Sonic as Link's worst MU.


Q for everyone:
What is your least favorite MU for whatever reason?

Mine is Sheik for Link.

My least favorite matchup is Cloud for Bowser Jr.

 

[Deleted member]

Killing early isn't as big of an MU maker.

Ryu kills Rosa even earlier, and we all know how tragic that MU is for different reasons. Ryu is a large body, easy to play with in disadvantage. He has no means of forcing an approach or approaching safely. His run speed is average and his ability to chase in the air is tragic.

Good reasoning, I mean think of the Bowser / DK and Rosalina match-up. They can kill pretty early, notable Bowser when fighting Rosalina. But their big bodies and easily gimpable recoveries hurts them a lot when fighting Rosalina. I would say the best way to kill Rosalina with DK / Bowser is to kill the Luma as soon as possible and then exploit her weakness without the Luma by attacking her with quick movement options to rack up high percentage. I am no expert, so feel free to correct me on this.

 

[WiFi]

Good reasoning, I mean think of the Bowser / DK and Rosalina match-up. They can kill pretty early, notable Bowser when fighting Rosalina. But their big bodies and easily gimp-able recoveries hurts them a lot when fighting Rosalina. I would say the best way to kill Rosalina with DK / Bowser is to kill the Luma as soon as possible and then exploit her weakness without the Luma by attacking her with quick movement options to rack up high percentage. I am no expert, so feel free to correct me on this.

Killing early definitely affects the Lucario matchup, probably more than any other matchup.

 

[|RK|]

Killing early definitely affects the Lucario matchup, probably more than any other matchup.

Lucario is another subject entirely, but kill power still isn't everything. You have to be able to win in some other area in addition, which is exactly why the Ryu MU isn't as bad as many might think.

Fox kills Lucario early, yes. But he also has a plethora of other tools that weaken or otherwise dominate Lucario.

DK, on the other hand, pretty much only kills early. Which is why many Lucario players believe the MU is even, and Tsu has it listed as advantageous.

Wario kills early, but he can also run away from Lucario for the entire game while preparing to kill him.

Ryu kills early, and then...? He's not hard to catch, doesn't force Lucario to approach (and is in fact forced to approach himself). So Lucario already controls neutral more easily. But then Ryu puts on pressure better up close and kills easier.

 

[Heracr055]

The Rosa MU and the Bayo MU are on completely different playing fields. It's a slippery slope argument that you assume, by my metric (which is a fraction of my "Bayo MU isn't that bad" argument), that Rosa must be even easier since she dies earlier. Rosa has a meatshield that can completely wall Ryu out and ruin his Focus Attack (since her single hits essentially become multihits with Luma). With Luma around, Ryu can't achieve his ideal range, then he falls apart. This is not so with Bayo. Bullet Climax can be ducked under (with Lylat being an exception), and Bullet Arts is so little damage that Ryu can just eat it and either hang back or approach during it. We can easily convert that damage (and more) back on her. "But the threat of Witch Time!" Which is why Ryus need to be less nair/ button happy and grab more.

 

[|RK|]

The Rosa MU and the Bayo MU are on completely different playing fields. It's a slippery slope argument that you assume, by my metric (which is a fraction of my "Bayo MU isn't that bad" argument), that Rosa must be even easier since she dies earlier. Rosa has a meatshield that can completely wall Ryu out and ruin his Focus Attack (since her single hits essentially become multihits with Luma). With Luma around, Ryu can't achieve his ideal range, then he falls apart. This is not so with Bayo. Bullet Climax can be ducked under (with Lylat being an exception), and Bullet Arts is so little damage that Ryu can just eat it and either hang back or approach during it. We can easily convert that damage (and more) back on her. "But the threat of Witch Time!" Which is why Ryus need to be less nair/ button happy and grab more.

That's not the meaning of "slippery slope."

In either case, the point is "he can still kill early" is not sufficient to say that he doesn't do badly against Bayo.

And grab alone isn't sufficient to beat Witch Time. The entire point is that if Ryu's only answer is grabbing more, he becomes predictable. Especially since his grab reward isn't the greatest.

He cannot force Bayo to approach, with the exception of a percent lead. This means she can force him to approach on her terms, and counter his inevitable grab/jump in.

He has no tools for effectively approaching Bayonetta. This makes the bait & punish game particularly ruthless.

His aerial drift is non-existent. His recovery mix-up is telegraphed. He has to drift, most likely fall, and potentially use FADC to improve his movement. This makes him easier to edgeguard.

He has no tools to escape Bayonetta's juggles, beyond universal options. He's a large target, meaning escape SDI can be more difficult - though he is pretty heavy.

His primary advantage here is the ability to kill Bayonetta early should she fail to exercise patience and secure a kill.

 

[The_Bookworm]

That's not the meaning of "slippery slope."

In either case, the point is "he can still kill early" is not sufficient to say that he doesn't do badly against Bayo.

And grab alone isn't sufficient to beat Witch Time. The entire point is that if Ryu's only answer is grabbing more, he becomes predictable. Especially since his grab reward isn't the greatest.

He cannot force Bayo to approach, with the exception of a percent lead. This means she can force him to approach on her terms, and counter his inevitable grab/jump in.

He has no tools for effectively approaching Bayonetta. This makes the bait & punish game particularly ruthless.

His aerial drift is non-existent. His recovery mix-up is telegraphed. He has to drift, most likely fall, and potentially use FADC to improve his movement. This makes him easier to edgeguard.

He has no tools to escape Bayonetta's juggles, beyond universal options. He's a large target, meaning escape SDI can be more difficult - though he is pretty heavy.

His primary advantage here is the ability to kill Bayonetta early should she fail to exercise patience and secure a kill.

His aerial drift is not nonexistant (although it is below average at best). He does have Focus Attack to escape out of non-Witch Twist juggles Bayonetta can do. He can also abuse Bayonetta's tall frame and lightweight to good use (of course there is Witch Time so you cannot be reckless). He has a few OOS options against her (such as nair) and he could approach using Focus.
I am not saying that Bayo loses against Ryu, but the above quotes make it seem like the matchup is unwinnable. XD

 

[SwagGuy99]

Bayonetta and Cloud are the only characters that should be placed in S Tier in my opinion. Move Diddy down to A Tier.

I honestly think Cloud needs an SS Tier. Leave Bayo in S tier and expand it significantly. Top tier in my opinion has about 14 characters. Cloud, Bayo, Sonic, Rosa, Diddy, Mario, Shiek, ZSS, and Fox in the top half and Mewtwo, Marth, Luigi, Lucina and Pikachu in the lower half. I think should also be a tier that is borderline top tier but better than high tier called the Luigi tier or S-/A+ tier or something. It should have the characters who have results but lack something that they need to put them with those other characters. It should be Marth, Luigi, Lucina, Pikachu, Corrin, Ryu, Meta Knight, and Toon Link.

 

[|RK|]

His aerial drift is not nonexistant (although it is below average at best). He does have Focus Attack to escape out of non-Witch Twist juggles Bayonetta can do. He can also abuse Bayonetta's tall frame and lightweight to good use (of course there is Witch Time so you cannot be reckless). He has a few OOS options against her (such as nair) and he could approach using Focus.
I am not saying that Bayo loses against Ryu, but the above quotes make it seem like the matchup is unwinnable. XD

He is specially coded such that he has to commit every time he jumps. His ability to decelerate or otherwise change direction is possibly the worst in the game.

Witch Twist and fair make up most of Bayo's juggles.

The MU isn't unwinnable, no. But Bayo has way too many advantages to say "she dies early, so it's not that bad."

 

[WiFi]

He is specially coded such that he has to commit every time he jumps. His ability to decelerate or otherwise change direction is possibly the worst in the game.

Witch Twist and fair make up most of Bayo's juggles.

The MU isn't unwinnable, no. But Bayo has way too many advantages to say "she dies early, so it's not that bad."

To add to that, many of Bayonetta's attacks are multihit attacks, so Focus can't be spammed, as Bayonetta will win, be it a Witch Twist, or even worse, a Witch Time.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

This is a random question but it's been on my my mind. What do you guys think players mean when they something like this: "What top player of [insert character here] even uses [insert technique/move/strategy]?"

I've gotten that answer twice this week and I'm trying to figure out the meaning of it. All it has me thinking is that because the top players for a particular character refuse to use a advance technique, move, or strategy means that nobody should use it.

-

On the other hand this came out today for Greninja. They call it Shadow Slide.

It's finally here. Introducing Shadow Slide! At first glance it seems very insignificant, but the video shows a few ways to implement into it your play. (Plus it's just plain flashy)

The theory behind it also applies to certain other characters side specials too. Go lab it out! pic.twitter.com/dvci9Z0bVD

— Paragon | Akashic (@AkashicGaming) February 5, 2018

Edit: This got uploaded too.

 

[Heracr055]

Grab alone is definitely not enough to beat Bayo; it's a significant mixup that Ryus aren't going for typically; it's one of the major grievances on the Ryucord that Ryus throw out buttons to try and make something happen.
Approaching Bayo with Ryu is not nearly as difficult as you make it out to be.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is a random question but it's been on my my mind. What do you guys think players mean when they something like this: "What top player of [insert character here] even uses [insert technique/move/strategy]?"

I've gotten that answer twice this week and I'm trying to figure out the meaning of it. All it has me thinking is that because the top players for a particular character refuse to use a advance technique, move, or strategy means that nobody should use it.

-

On the other hand this came out today for Greninja. They call it Shadow Slide.

It's finally here. Introducing Shadow Slide! At first glance it seems very insignificant, but the video shows a few ways to implement into it your play. (Plus it's just plain flashy)

The theory behind it also applies to certain other characters side specials too. Go lab it out! pic.twitter.com/dvci9Z0bVD

— Paragon | Akashic (@AkashicGaming) February 5, 2018

Edit: This got uploaded too.

This technique seems to be a powerful mindgame is done correctly. It seems to be only really useful on tri-plats like Battlefield and Dream Land.

A lot of the techniques people get from labbing the character are either too situational or too difficult to use in competitive play, which is why it isn't seen much play by professionals. The Greninja players who are experts in combo and advance technical play, for example, usually doesn't have the neutral or the main fundamentals of the character down. This is why players who are extremely technical with the character (which applies to any smash game), usually isn't the best player of the character since they focus on technique rather than fundamentals. It is why Larry is still the best Fox player in the world to this day (other than his strong results, of course).

 

[The_Bookworm]

An Update on the PGR v5.

C-Tier
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (Winner: KEN) (Runner-up: Nietono)
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (Winner: Kirihara) (Runner-up: Rizeasu)
Noods Noods Noods: Melee Edition (Winner: falln) (Runner-up: Elegant)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (Winner: MkLeo) (Runner-up: Shuton)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (Winner: Shu) (Runner-up: Zackray)
King of the Springs 3 (Winner: TBD) (Runner-up: TBD)
Full Bloom 4 (Winner: TBD) (Runner-up: TBD)
Collision XV (Winner:TBD) (Runner-up: TBD)

B-tier
Umebura T.A.T. (Winner: KEN) (Runner-up: Choco)
EVO Japan 2018 (Winner: MKLeo) (Runner-up: Abadango)
Tokaigi 2018 (Winner: TBD) (Runner-up: TBD)

A-Tier
Genesis 5 (Winner: MKLeo) (Runner-up: Mistake)
Frostbite 2018 (Winner: TBD) (Runner-up: TBD)

 

[|RK|]

This is a random question but it's been on my my mind. What do you guys think players mean when they something like this: "What top player of [insert character here] even uses [insert technique/move/strategy]?"

I've gotten that answer twice this week and I'm trying to figure out the meaning of it. All it has me thinking is that because the top players for a particular character refuse to use a advance technique, move, or strategy means that nobody should use it.

Not necessarily. WaDi, for example, is putting effort into learning more of Mewtwo's busted options. But just because he hasn't really used them doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Zenyou combos vs Ally/ANTi, so on. It's not that you shouldn't use an option - just that people often don't for any number of reasons.

 

[WiFi]

WaDi is the best Mewtwo though... His Shadow Ball usage is amazing and he knows how to use Mewtwo's combo game well. Mewtwo and Fox deal a ludicrous amount of damage per move.

 

[|RK|]

WaDi is the best Mewtwo though... His Shadow Ball usage is amazing and he knows how to use Mewtwo's combo game well. Mewtwo and Fox deal a ludicrous amount of damage per move.

WaDi is definitely the best Mewtwo - never said otherwise.

 

[That1GamerOtaku]

I honestly think Cloud needs an SS Tier. Leave Bayo in S tier and expand it significantly. Top tier in my opinion has about 14 characters. Cloud, Bayo, Sonic, Rosa, Diddy, Mario, Shiek, ZSS, Fox and Mewtwo. I think should also be a tier that is borderline top tier but better than high tier called the Luigi tier or S-/A+ tier or something. It should have the characters who have results but lack something that they need to put them with those other characters. It should be Marth, Luigi, Lucina, Pikachu, Corrin, Ryu, Meta Knight, and Toon Link.

As a Luigi main I do believe that he is at the bottom of top tier but apparently that is an unpopular opinion. He has potential that Elegant has been slowly bringing to the surface over time. He will be top 10 with Luigi soon enough then people will understand his power lol.

 

[WiFi]

WaDi is definitely the best Mewtwo - never said otherwise.

Nah, I think you misinterpreted my answer. Its all good though. I agree with your general idea. Mewtwo has a plethora of busted options though. His fair is the best in the game tbh. Combos, kills, fast as hell, slightly disjointed. Its a really good move, even when staled.

 

[WiFi]

As a Luigi main I do believe that he is at the bottom of top tier but apparently that is an unpopular opinion. He has potential that Elegant has been slowly bringing to the surface over time. He will be top 10 with Luigi soon enough then people will understand his power lol.

Zero believes Luigi is at the bottom of top tier. I think he's around Corrin-Ryu-MK level.

 

[The_Bookworm]

As a Luigi main I do believe that he is at the bottom of top tier but apparently that is an unpopular opinion. He has potential that Elegant has been slowly bringing to the surface over time. He will be top 10 with Luigi soon enough then people will understand his power lol.

His is power is understood: a devastating punish game and a great combo game with his down throw, and possesses a surprisingly fast frame data. However, his approach is awful for a character of his tier: mediocre run speed and below average range in his attacks. I think his current position is well deserved for the time being (I actually rank him 17th instead of 18th because I think Lucario is slightly overrated).

Zero believes Luigi is at the bottom of top tier. I think he's around Corrin-Ryu-MK level.

ZeRo's tier list in a nutshell: who has the most "potential" + who has the most BS + who has a kill confirm. XD