Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[SorenT]

I'm not a Sonic main, but from what I can tell, one weakness I can think of is that Sonic has trouble KOing opponents. From what I noticed, it can be hard to set up for the kill when playing as Sonic with the high end lag on his moves. This gives opponents more time to counter the move, and it just makes getting the KO riskier in general. I'm not sure if he has 50/50s, but if he does have 50/50s they certainly aren't on Sheik or Fox level. Even with improved knockback on moves from Brawl, he still has trouble KOing from what I can tell

Sonic's biggest weakness is overlooked, but really his biggest problem is that literally 90% of his aerials and normals are not safe on shield. Only bair is actually safe when spaced correctly.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Sonic's biggest weakness is overlooked, but really his biggest problem is that literally 90% of his aerials and normals are not safe on shield. Only bair is actually safe when spaced correctly.

What about bad landing options?

 

[Megamang]

Those things are intrinsically linked. Unless you have a mobility special to dash to safety, you probably need to land with an aerial. Even tomahawks are linked to having good aerials to make them shield, Sonic's safest aerial is his bair so he can't really threaten the grab unless he wants to land and turnaround and grab, which is ok.


He has a mobility special, but it just prolongs the inevitable landing trap

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not familiar with the Bayonetta match-up for Lucas, but here is some random stuff.

• If Lucas spaces his PK Fire well, he can avoid Witch Time. If PK Fire triggers Bat Within, Bayonetta can still get hit by the second half of PK Fire if she decides to re-appear in the same spot.
• If Lucas spaces his aerials and tilts (they all have disjoints seperate from his hurtbox, including his up-air) he may be able to safely punish Bayonetta's Vair.
• Lucas can poke Bayonetta with Zair unless the Bayonetta player knows to Witch Time it. If that happens, Lucas can try to mix it up with PK Fire.

Lucas's grab combos seems like it is the thread's reasoning for Bayonetta vs Lucas as I have seen it brought up in the past.

This is not the gif I was looking for but here is a example of the match-up on Final Destination.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

And here is a Mega Man one I ran across while looking for Bayonetta examples.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There is even one for Shiek, but Twitter on mobile will not let me go back that far.

I do not see the tweets; it says invalid tweet ideas. Anyways thank you for answering my question. Can PK Fire avoid Bayonetta's first attack on the infamous zero to death? I think PK Fire is good for spacing - decent knock back and speed. I think this is useful for Luigi and Donkey Kong to keep them away and then Lucas can go for a grab; I am not sure. I am not a Smash Expert; you definitely know a lot more about Lucas than I do. I am curious why Diddy Kong is considered his worst match up. ZeRo thinks Lucas is better than Ness, but I am honestly not sure. They both have different strengths and weaknesses. ( Ness having good mobility and grappling ) and same with Lucas ( Is useful for grabbing them and harming them with as many aerials as he got ).

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

If you mean Witch Twist, PK Fire may be able to knock her out of it after the first hit of PK Fire connects; the move is too slow to try use on reaction to Witch Twist though.

PK Fire can be a great tool vs Luigi and DK if they give you the room and time to throw it out. The best way to counter the move is to walk towards Lucas and do your best to perfect shield to force Lucas to give up stage control.

This video can show you an example of the spacing Lucas can get from PK Fire.

Diddy Kong being called Lucas's worst match-up is mainly due to the Taiheita vs Lucas set at Super Smash Con.

Here it is.

The way Zero plays Diddy makes the match-up seem hopeless.

As far as the Twitter videos not loading, it loaded on my screen, and I played the videos before I uploaded them.

Edit: The best advice I think Lucas has gotten for the Diddy match-up has to do with what Dabuz said in his analysis video of the match, which I forgot what it was, but it had a focus on defense.

Edit 2: Checked on the other post and I see the issue. Gonna try to fix it now.

Edit 3: I think I found the issue, you can only see his tweets if you follow him. He must of changed his settings yesterday.

 

[TDK]

https://www.gofundme.com/g5duckseason

This is the GoFundMe to get Brood , Raito , and Tamushika to G5. I really hope they make it.

 

[Megamang]

I was talking about stuff that combos off a ledge grab, and I remembered that Corrin can get a 50/50 into uair off of her recovery

 

[Bowserboy3]

I was talking about stuff that combos off a ledge grab, and I remembered that Corrin can get a 50/50 into uair off of her recovery

If Marth uses Dolphin Slash to recover, and the opponent techs this, Marth has a guarunteed Bair if he recognises this.

Certain characters's techs put them in stupid easy tipper range too, such as Duck Hunt.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan

People talking about how meta is not evolving, and although I did give reasons why.....


Peeps still not labbing late nair with characters that have the standard side kick like Fox, Mario, Sheik, etc.

psh

whatever

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan

People talking about how meta is not evolving, and although I did give reasons why.....


Peeps still not labbing late nair with characters that have the standard side kick like Fox, Mario, Sheik, etc.

psh

whatever

Any suggestions for such characters?

 

[Megamang]

C-stick nair with Shiek is amazing. Nair right when you land to start combos, like when you get a footstool which is STUPID easy with shiek, off of fthrow/ftilt. The ability to dash right into a nair really gives you a little bit of range on the punishes which is enough to make shield much more deadly.


Late hit nair can give you usmash, bouncing fish, and probably more.


Void did first hit uair -> land -> tipper usmash at smash 4 boot camp, that was sick.


Generally footstool setups are underutilized. Void and MrR are finally starting to use them. I fear Diddies who start using the Geo combo more, 'just going offstage' isn't really a good option to have, especially if they know it is coming. I believe they can just dair you straight out from the combo, which is painful.


I wonder if shiek can do late hit nair -> footstool if they go offstage...? Hmm

I also wonder if she can dair out of footstool like greninja, that **** does more damage than it should and can combo into bouncing fish or fair strings.


Also just adjusting your fair-spacing to get the tipper can give you a ~25% damage boost, which adds up. The same with bair, getting the tipper can give you earlier kills and such. It trades with bayo nair, which gives you more than double the damage (maybe less if you take a few bullets but you still win for sure) so everytime a shiek stands there while getting naired I laugh.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Sorry if I sound like too much of a scrub, but how do you C-stick Nair?

 

[Nah]

Sorry if I sound like too much of a scrub, but how do you C-stick Nair?

Basically you just input a diagonal direction on your C-stick while in the air, and that'll give you a Nair. May or may not have to set your controller to tilt stick and not smash stick, idr

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Yeah, it has to be set to tilt stick.

 

[Deleted member]

Glad that Shulk is rising in the tier list. He actually has utility with his Monado and can do a lot of things. I feel like Smash + forward air does not have a lot of end lag and can "carry" the opponet into death if they do not do proper SDI. Having a terrible match up against Bayonetta does not help him though. Does Shulk have good results though?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Shulk does not need Smash Art to allow fair to carry opponents to the blast zone. The move can do that on it's own.

Shulk has a true fair to fair setup that can kill if he is in Speed Art and Jump Art. He can also get it started if he lands a landing nair on the opponent. Shulk even has the option to end his fairs into an air slash if he so chooses; but it will result in Shulk self-destructing so it is usually reserved for the final stock.

As for results, he has plenty that the Shulk Discord keeps a record of.

Link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p8fdL9CUB81G6oMEDB0Cl4BuJYI2toFyfIh291eNXsU/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Illusion.]

ARFI #19 (63 entrants: Austin, Texas)

1st. Circa | Locus *
2nd. SU | Megafox
3rd. Jerma
4th. SaSSy

* was used in winner's semis in the final game of the set

Full bracket here: https://smash.gg/tournament/austin-s-really-feeling-it-19-ft-locus/events

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik can fs dair and get a guaranteed bf/uair/tipper usmash depending on the character and %s

 

[Megamang]

Does the tipper usmash ever kill?


I love stall n fall dairs, I think they are great for when your opponent misplaces an aerial approach barely, or trading with certain recoveries such as Bowser/DK/Corrin/Fox.


Theyre also great in doubles to go 'HERE COMES SHIEK' to an opponent who has your opponent caught in a string that takes a while, like dancing blade or something.


I see Mr.R and sometimes void rolling back to the ledge and attempting to get a dair spike on an opponent, but I have never once seen it work (though I might be forgetting something)... what does this cover? I mean it isn't ledge regrab, I hope, because dtilt usmash covers that really well.. Ledge jump aerials?

 

[ARGHETH]

Does the tipper usmash ever kill?

Sheik's tipper Usmash isn't that bad; it's stronger than Cloud and Lucina's.

 

[Nu~]

Sheik's tipper Usmash isn't that bad; it's stronger than Cloud and Lucina's.

Nah, I’m pretty sure he means will the setup ever connect at percentages where usmash will kill.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Yes, the setup works at death %s because you are given the singlehit dair after a FS, which pops them straight up. There's a thread for FS Dair followups on here somewhere.
Simikins made it.

Also, the ledge dair covers ledgedrop, some janky areas of getup attack, and ledge jump(but rarely). I don't like using it without rage, though.

 

[SJMistery]

Tru, tru. I might have been underselling Greninja’s tools just a bit. I like this lol

However, there’s one nitpick I have and that’s the usefulness of Greninja’s fair. While powerful and big, I don’t think it’s quite powerful or large enough to warrant that frame data.

Lol, imagine greninja running around with a marth fair. A forward facing aerial on a character that fast would absolutely suck for people who aren't Greninja.

Greninja with a good killing Fair would be broken IMO, for reference let's take Lucina's Fair damage, frame data and knockback values.

Lower start-up would mean that Down Throw and Down Tilt would combo into it easily, and the increased kill power would finish off stocks at around 60% when offstage, at around 100% near the ledge and not much farther than 140% in the middle of the stage, wich by the way 100-150% is the percent where Down Throw to Fair would be a true combo. That would be completely broken with Greninja's damage racking capabilities and already great edgeguarding tools and the Water Shuriken ledgetrap in mind.


But... actually we sort of already have a killer aerial move. Shadow Sneak HAS that kill power, and despite being almost twice as laggy as Greninja's actual Fair, it has even more range, it does not have a blindspot, and can be used to beat airdodges reliably. It's proven that offstage that thing can kill at 40-50% with rage, and is one of the main reasons Greninja's recovery is so scary to take on.

Seriously, Shadow Sneak needs more investigation, it's an incredibly underrated move. Being unsafe on sheld means jack**** when the opponent is on the air and cannot shield at all.

His back air is very good at edge guarding as well and it does come out fast.

It better be, as Dr Mario has Little Mac level recovery. A slow Bair would mean a guaranteed SD by using it offstage, instead of merely a notable chance of SDing.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's Fair is okay at killing. It true combos on many characters from about 110% onward from Dtilt because the frame link is too tight for them to airdodge it, and true 50/50s from Dthrow from around the same percents. Helps if you're near the relevant blastzone of course, but Fair and Uair both kill fairly well.

Greninja's most exciting kill move for me is still Uthrow. Greninja has similar abilities to Sheik at high percents as he is able to use his projectile to tack on damage safely until the opponent reaches the Uthrow kill threshold, similar to Sheik and Ftilt/Fair (or a surprise BF). It doesn't kill particularly early, but it's early enough to be a legitimately threatening kill move and works as a constant growing threat for the opponent. This is in contrast to say, Fox or Cloud, who have a lot of kill options at around 100% but don't gain many new ones as damage builds up.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Question of curiosity: do you all think that the meta will continue to centralize around Bayo and Cloud to an even greater extent down the road, or do you all think it's more possible that other characters will become much more popular in order to counter or match those two? I've been thinking the former is more likely, but it's still something to think about.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Question of curiosity: do you all think that the meta will continue to centralize around Bayo and Cloud to an even greater extent down the road, or do you all think it's more possible that other characters will become much more popular in order to counter or match those two? I've been thinking the former is more likely, but it's still something to think about.

The current playerbase at all levels prefers the path with less resistance, they'd rather pick Bayo and Nair spam or Cloud and Cloud spam, which will very likely grant significant success because the opponents are likely not going to lab out how to beat it, and rather pick Bayo/Cloud themselves.
So, yeah, I'd expect the meta to inflate their results.

 

[Deleted member]

The current playerbase at all levels prefers the path with less resistance, they'd rather pick Bayo and Nair spam or Cloud and Cloud spam, which will very likely grant significant success because the opponents are likely not going to lab out how to beat it, and rather pick Bayo/Cloud themselves.
So, yeah, I'd expect the meta to inflate their results.

So what will it be for Diddy Kong and Sheik then? Diddy Kong actually is even with Cloud and Bayo. Maybe Diddy Kong has a slight advantage; who knows. Sheik has an advantage on both. If Sheik and Diddy Kong players step up their game, maybe they can change the M.E.T.A. Either way, a lot of people are beginning to think Cloud and Bayo are top 2. Back then this was not possible.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

The current playerbase at all levels prefers the path with less resistance, they'd rather pick Bayo and Nair spam or Cloud and Cloud spam, which will very likely grant significant success because the opponents are likely not going to lab out how to beat it, and rather pick Bayo/Cloud themselves.
So, yeah, I'd expect the meta to inflate their results.

Then what would become of the "viable cast?" (using the current 4BR for this example)

 

[Sinister Slush]

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan

People talking about how meta is not evolving, and although I did give reasons why.....


Peeps still not labbing late nair with characters that have the standard side kick like Fox, Mario, Sheik, etc.

People underrate sex kicks.

 

[Crooked Crow]

4BR Tier List v4 Competitive Insight & Analysis Drinking Game!

Every time:

°Skeeter Mania ends a post with a question; take a shot.
°Emblem Lord corrects bad players; take a shot.
°People underrate Kirby; take a shot.
°Someone complains about Bayonetta; take a shot.
°Ness and Lucas players rage about you calling them clones; take a shot.

I'll think of more. Maybe.

 

[KakuCP9]

4BR Tier List v4 Competitive Insight & Analysis Drinking Game!

Every time:

°Skeeter Mania ends a post with a question; take a shot.
°Emblem Lord corrects bad players; take a shot.
°People underrate Kirby; take a shot.
°Someone complains about Bayonetta; take a shot.
°Ness and Lucas players rage about you calling them clones; take a shot.

I'll think of more. Maybe.

*someone says Sheik is bad at killing; take a shot
*someone makes bad Bowser/DK comparisons; take a shot
*Zero's monkey flip costs him a game; take a shot
*obscure character does super well in a big tourney; drink to their success.

 

[Shaya]

Shaya appears to say no drinking games; dispose of intoxicating substances and become a family man.

 

[Nu~]

4BR Tier List v4 Competitive Insight & Analysis Drinking Game!

Every time:

°Skeeter Mania ends a post with a question; take a shot.
°Emblem Lord corrects bad players; take a shot.
°People underrate Kirby; take a shot.
°Someone complains about Bayonetta; take a shot.
°Ness and Lucas players rage about you calling them clones; take a shot.

I'll think of more. Maybe.

Man, I ain’t tryna die lmfao

 

[MrGameguycolor]

°People underrate Kirby; take a shot.

Bottoms up!

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Add Marcina conversation to that list.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

4BR Tier List v4 Competitive Insight & Analysis Drinking Game!

Every time:

°Skeeter Mania ends a post with a question; take a shot.
°Emblem Lord corrects bad players; take a shot.
°People underrate Kirby; take a shot.
°Someone complains about Bayonetta; take a shot.
°Ness and Lucas players rage about you calling them clones; take a shot.

I'll think of more. Maybe.

What did ya say, punk?!

Prepare for your livers to disintegrate!

 

[|RK|]

Reel it in smh

Topics in here can become repetitive, but there's only so much that can be done from discussion alone. Especially in an off-season.

For example, even if we theorize a million ways to complete counter Bayonetta, it would mean little unless someone actually puts it into practice. So I would suggest using this to your own advantages; if there's something you're interested in, feel free to discuss it!

 

[Nu~]

Ignore pls

 

[TDK]

4BR Tier List v4 Competitive Insight & Analysis Drinking Game!

Every time:

°Skeeter Mania ends a post with a question; take a shot.
°Emblem Lord corrects bad players; take a shot.
°People underrate Kirby; take a shot.
°Someone complains about Bayonetta; take a shot.
°Ness and Lucas players rage about you calling them clones; take a shot.

I'll think of more. Maybe.

*someone says Sheik is bad at killing; take a shot
*someone makes bad Bowser/DK comparisons; take a shot
*Zero's monkey flip costs him a game; take a shot
*obscure character does super well in a big tourney; drink to their success.

Here's my contribution:

- Every time we use Pikachu Uthrow Thunder to move away from a topic, take a shot.

And so this post isn't completely useless, seems to have fallen off the map completely. What happened? I see more puffs and Zeldas doing decently than Bowser Jrs. Is he just that bad?

 

[Nemesis561]

Here's my contribution:

- Every time we use Pikachu Uthrow Thunder to move away from a topic, take a shot.

And so this post isn't completely useless, seems to have fallen off the map completely. What happened? I see more puffs and Zeldas doing decently than Bowser Jrs. Is he just that bad?

Jr’s main problem is that his gameplan is completely one dimensional. He almost completely relies on his side B to get anything started and he thrives against players that flat out don’t know the matchup or feel uncomfortable fighting Jr. (He’s a strange character so some people at low levels of play don’t like fighting him)

This is why Jr at a low to mid level of competition can do good work because when his gameplan does work, Jr can look pretty scary with high damage racking combos, some good aerials that are strong and have nice big lingering hitboxes, pretty consistent kill combo that can start killing as early as 65-70% depending on certain factors, and a decent item in Mecha Koopa that can control the stage and help with approaches and be pretty versatile overall.

But once you play players who are comfortable fighting Jr and know how to exploit his hollow gameplan, that’s when things turn bad for Jr. his ground game is awful, his tilts are not very good, his jab 1 is ok but leads to nothing, his rapid jab is abysmal, he gets basically nothing out of any sort of movement tech, his grab is awful (pivot grab is pretty nice though) and even if you land it you don’t get much out of it. His smash attacks however are nice, f smash can be pretty safe to throw out and is really strong, and up smash is a good out of shield killing option.

Jr is really bad guys, and the future looks bleak because his meta has stagnated. I don’t think he’s quite bottom 5 tho because he has a few things going For him, but yeah thinks don’t look great lol