Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Lord Dio]

feel free to discuss something I'm interested in? 'kay

I'm pretty sure I've asked this before, but what neutral tools does Lucario have outside of Aura Sphere?

What is Game and Watch's tier problem? Lack of representation, part of his gameplay, both, etc ?

The above question, but for Falco, Pac-Man, Ike, and Villager (yes I know he's good but I want to know weaknesses and strengths)

 

[Nemesis561]

Game and watch’s neutral is pretty bad, his kill confirm (down throw up air) can kill really early but is really inconsistent. He can struggle to force approaches, as well as approach himself. And obviously his weight does him no favors

 

[MercuryPenny]

falco's movement is unreasonably bad and doesn't have any ranged pokes to make up for it. he has phantasm but it's kinda slow, kinda laggy and the hitbox doesn't lead to anything. he also kinda dies when he gets hit like fox without his horrifying vortex of doom

his combo game is pretty okay though

 

[|RK|]

feel free to discuss something I'm interested in? 'kay

I'm pretty sure I've asked this before, but what neutral tools does Lucario have outside of Aura Sphere?

What is Game and Watch's tier problem? Lack of representation, part of his gameplay, both, etc ?

The above question, but for Falco, Pac-Man, Ike, and Villager (yes I know he's good but I want to know weaknesses and strengths)

Lucario? Nair for one, which is extremely disjointed and has all of 9 frames of landing lag (and confirms into grabs & can kill at high aura). Ftilt as well, which comes out slowly (frame 12), but has little endlag. Dtilt, which can confirm into a grab and is frame 9 with low endlag.

He also has a monster pivot grab and GREAT dash speed at 1.8. His dair is a really solid get-off-of-me tool, and can confirm into Force Grab. Very low endlag, starts frame 4.

And then, you can't forget bair. It commands so much respect for such a slow move. But then again, it only has 15 frames of landing lag for a move that can be so powerful. Ah, and its risk/reward (like his other moves) become incredibly skewed at high aura. Bair in particular can reach +1 on OOS options. Nair reaches 0.

 

[The-Technique]

feel free to discuss something I'm interested in? 'kay

I'm pretty sure I've asked this before, but what neutral tools does Lucario have outside of Aura Sphere?

What is Game and Watch's tier problem? Lack of representation, part of his gameplay, both, etc ?

The above question, but for Falco, Pac-Man, Ike, and Villager (yes I know he's good but I want to know weaknesses and strengths)

best ikes aren't traveling very much, so representation is lacking. gameplay-wise ike's tools are solid but not quite god tier

 

[Aaron1997]

feel free to discuss something I'm interested in? 'kay

I'm pretty sure I've asked this before, but what neutral tools does Lucario have outside of Aura Sphere?

What is Game and Watch's tier problem? Lack of representation, part of his gameplay, both, etc ?

The above question, but for Falco, Pac-Man, Ike, and Villager (yes I know he's good but I want to know weaknesses and strengths)

Pac suffers the problem of having good to decent Normal's and mobility but just not good enough to help him when his projectile game is being shutdown.

His F-air is tied with Sheik for the fastest in the game but its not safe on hit at low %'s and its Auto-cancel window is horrible for what's supposed to be a "Safe" poke. His Up-air and B-air are decent but they are just not good enough kill moves. His N-air is the only top tier move he really has. His grounded Normals are again decent but not good enough. His Frame data compared to other Zoners is probably the best in the game (F-air,N-air,Up-B). Same goes for mobility. But the Grab is the real killer here. I would say he be somewhere around top of Mid tier if he a functional grab. People don't realize how much better his projectile's would be if opponents can't just press the Shield button everytime something comes there way. Up-B beat Shield but its not safe on hit on 90% of the cast till high %'s.

Now you get to someone like who may be approaching High tier if the Results keep up. He also has very hard time killing but he has a Functional Grab. Pac would be same except with a much better recovery, better Disadvantage state, much better smashes, better kill power on projectlies, better Frame data and kill throw's (Back-throw,Up-throw) but a worse neutral and slightly worse advantage state.

Like I said at a another post. I don't expect him to ever leave low tier unless someone starts putting similar results to 2015 Aba.
Tea is entering a Sumabato on the First week of 2018 so maybe the start of the Year of the Pac?


TL:DR Pac's average Mobilty and Above-average Normal's is not good enough when your main strength (his projectile game) is sometimes a liability at High/Top level. Especially when your grab sucks.

 

[Megamang]

Lucario is terrifying in neutral. The best Lucario around here says the best way to shut him down is to get on him and stay on him, abusing his lack of get off of me options. Bair becomes less scary when you just jump up and stuff it instead of letting it obliterate your shield. But if they start it early, a trade will NOT favor you.


I find this approach works best at high percentages, but I still like campy safe play early on. I find that having little damage when he gets high aura gives you, at most, one more chance to screw up, which is better than just one chance.


His foxtrot and mobility shifting specials give him a terrifying neutral.


I really hope Lucarios don't learn Aura Sphere -> reverse fair -> bair combos, because that **** will kill you at 50% even at a pretty low level of aura (as in, before your kill setups work...).


Uair is gross, fair is surprisingly good at getting things started and throwing a wrench in the 'stuff him' gameplan.



If they know how to land with no lag, his recovery is actually decent. Kinda like Diddy with Zero, you have to learn how to arc around their options and, at worst give them a guess, and at best give them no chance to hit you. Stuff like aerial needles can cover tons of his options, but who gets back to the ledge well vs needles? Even bayo hates those things.


---


I don't know where the overall meta will go, but I predict that developments in disadvantage will be significant. I find myself doing things where I cannot have won, eg dodging into frame traps... but I'm slowly learning to just avoid those situations. I also think with everyone learning to SDI vs Bayo, we will see SDI develop against the likes of Fox and Shiek to make their advantage a little less devastating. Gotta have a shoulder jump button, because if you SDI and just mash airdodge you usually just get some kustom kombos in your face.


Hey, MKLeo escaped Zero's usmash and himself said he used 'SDI like bayo'. It is a transferable skill, maybe it isn't the same as 'you mess up and you die' like bayo, but it will help vs stuff. Just moving a bit during a ZSS ladder is significant, because where you get snatched up makes a big difference to how the kick launches you. I could see a dedicated character main sitting down with a ZSS main and figuring out how to not die to the standard ZSS ladder, and that has real, tangible results that will help you.

People that SDI my shiek ftilts get a shorter combo (though you can adjust, it isn't as easy and you will often have to compromise with a bouncing fish ending before you would like).

MU knowledge will continue to increase, not so much obvious things like X spaces with Y so much as a general idea of what to do as a gameplan, what to never let happen, etc etc etc. When Dabuz shoots to a platform and takes a uair instead of being ledgeguarded for 2 minutes, he surpasses every Rosa that sits there getting ledge drop bair'd or dtilted ad nauseum. EL is right, metas shoot forward and then slow down these days, but there is always something you can do .


I hope that Cloud f17 kill confirm goes no where though. Nothing good can come from him getting more reward for, of all things, his freaking uair. That move is... its like they had all these rules for other characters that were well thought out and balanced the cast extraordinarily well, then they were like 'lets see what happens if we break those rules rofl' and gave him a rising anti air that leads to 60% or death. Ugh. I mean, if its because of his recovery, then Mac should have the same uair >_<

I honestly think Cloud has further to go than Bayo. Cloud feels like if he was smart you just... would never get a chance to hit him. Bayo is flashy and intense, but honestly has tons of holes in her gameplan. Salem goes Nairplane when he doesn't know what to do, and it works on top players... Till void just usmashes him. Stuff like that, what do you do if Cloud is spacing bairs? What if he screws up a dair, what is your highest damage punish out of a run? What about at kill percentages, how do you set him up to die? What if he is 20% away from your kill setup working, can you do the damage and set him up to at least have a chance to fall into your setup? Stuff like that.


Light's fox is an interesting case. He uses fair dragdowns and bair really high to kill airdodges, and really looks like a fresh take on fox.

 

[MistressRemilia]

feel free to discuss something I'm interested in? 'kay

I'm pretty sure I've asked this before, but what neutral tools does Lucario have outside of Aura Sphere?

What is Game and Watch's tier problem? Lack of representation, part of his gameplay, both, etc ?

The above question, but for Falco, Pac-Man, Ike, and Villager (yes I know he's good but I want to know weaknesses and strengths)

I'll throw my thoughts on Game&Watch, Falco and Villager for now. Others i don't have much to say about:

Game&Watch i've always felt has a really awkward neutral game that is hard to apply well without a lot of confidence in what you're doing. He's kind of unsafe in all the spots you wouldn't want him to be, but oddly safe in some unexpected ones. However, with his great air speed & air acceleration, the crossup potential is definitely there. There's just a lot left for Game&Watch to accomplish in Neutral & Advantage: One example is exploit his small size along with his aerials to punish opponents for poor aerial approaches through the use of Neutral Air, which will start a powerful combo, or use the invulnerability of UpSmash at Low% because you can combo off of . Little tricks like that would give Game&Watch much needed variety in his ways of unlocking his advantage, and would throw off people from his grappler nature ( Because yes, you can almost consider G&W one given his insane reward out of one, on a consistent basis even ). But yeah, I think applying all of the tricks needed to play a competent G&W is both difficult & rather inconsistent, hence why i can list a bunch of impressive wins & things G&W has accomplished, but not so much high placings in tournaments. I remain pretty hopeful for the character's future however, as his potential of " Grappler without a bad disadvantage " remains interesting & definitely shows potential. His matchups too, are quite good.

Villager has too many holes in his zoning ( Most importantly, the lack of verticality in his options ) to do good in a metagame where characters have either great means of mixing up their approaches to prevent such a straight forward zoning to work, or just good mobility specs coupled with an half decent ground game. His advantage state lacks practicality overall which means that most of the time Villager will remain in his spot of zoning character that unfortunately, due to the aforementioned options that most top tiers have, can't put the level of pressure needed to pressure his opponents into panic options that could offer him the access to advantage more easily. I don't really think his matchups are that good against Top Tiers, and he rightfully fell off over time. Maybe Ranai or some other Villager will prove me wrong, but i'm not that faithful. Who knows?

Falco feels like an unfortunate mess: I absolutely love his tilts & foxtrot ( Even though he's slow and that doesn't add much to his neutral game unless he's in the lead, at which point his opponent will need to approach ), his combo game's pretty good, and his aerials when taken individually aren't that bad, but god are we missing that Melee Bair, or just a better forward air for neutral purposes. Falco's lack of practical aerials to use along with his bad mobility just kill his abilities to fight other characters in the neutral, and along his pretty subpar disadvantage, just leaves him losing against most of the good characters. However, he remains pretty niche against zoners thanks to his insanely good reflector easing up the neutral against them, so he's not completely worthless either. Not much has been happening for Falco in the 3 years of Smash 4, and i don't expect that to change any time soon, unfortunately. I'd like to see it happen though.

 

[The-Technique]

Stuff like that, what do you do if Cloud is spacing bairs? What if he screws up a dair, what is your highest damage punish out of a run? What about at kill percentages, how do you set him up to die? What if he is 20% away from your kill setup working, can you do the damage and set him up to at least have a chance to fall into your setup? Stuff like that.

a lot of things, actually. when opponents are spacing their aerials they're basically delaying when they buffer their attack, so in that brief period of time you can stuff them out with an immediate rising aerial. and given that cloud's b-air isn't the fastest move in the world and doesn't have the most forgiving autocancel window, well there's quite a bit of counterplay you can do depending on the character you're using. Elegant is a good example to look toward when dealing with cloud.

a bunch of characters can punish a mistimed or mis-spaced d-air from cloud as well

if you watch certain players closely like Tweek and Leo, they're constantly mixing up how they approach and pressure opponents, they're never just resorting to one tactic over and over. that's something a lot of people overlook when they spectate cloud superficially.

cloud has a lot of amazing stuff but he's also combo meat, you only need to touch him once and as long as your combos aren't fraudulent you should be getting a lot of reward from whatever mistake that cloud is making. for instance zero is immaculate and ruthless with his punish game, thats the main reason why tweek and leo look so lost when they try to use cloud against him.

 

[Rizen]

One thing I'd add about Falco is he probably has the best vertical movement in the game. Fast extremely high jumps and a fast fall speed. I think he's low tier but he can be really good at chasing characters up in the air and walling offstage with Fair. His mobility's bad but he has a pretty decent burst game with his good frame data.

 

[Aegislasher]

I know that Falco has a pretty decent combo game, stuff like down throw -> dash attack/fair/nair at low percents depending on the character and up throw -> uair. He can probably get other stuff that I'm not aware of. I'm pretty sure he has the highest jumps in the game, or at least one of the highest. His crappy ground movement in this game, along with the laser nerfs from Brawl to Smash 4, I think is, at least, part of what made him go down so far.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I remember watching a falco video showing that he had a dair frame or autocancel combo.

 

[|RK|]

From my understanding, Falco is similar to Kirby - if the opponent is constantly choosing to be aggressive, he's a good character. But if they choose to be more defensive, he's going to have a rough time.

I think Falco is... not as bad as I initially thought. He's incredibly mediocre, but I feel like he has the tools to do fine in a number of MUs. I know Tsu & Day say Falco goes even with Lucario, for example..

A number of other charts show slight disadvantages.

He's still not good... But he's not miserable either.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I remember watching a falco video showing that he had a dair frame or autocancel combo.

Yes Falco has to land on a specific frame with Dair and it will still hit the opponent but auto cancel he can actually combo another Dair with it like Melee Falco pillar combos, problem is it's incredibly hard to land in a real time match and if you mess up which is likely your Dair'ing a opponents shield which will get you eating a smash attack.

Falco unlike alot of low tiers has a complete kit it's just very undertuned. He has a gameplan in neutral but doesn't have the strengths to execute it. He can't keep people away and still rather not have people on him. Once you realize he can't deal with shields at all he starts falling apart. He does however possess a great off stage game where he is legitimately scary with long lasting aerials that drag down or straight up hit hard, despite relatively bad recovery specials his best in the game jump height allows him to go deep when edge guarding which makes recovering against Falco even more threatening.

Falco is about the cut off for me when it comes to weak characters to just bad ones. People who can do well with him speak alot to their player skill

 

[Shaya]

Falco's dtilt is amazing - it acts as a poke well spaced; visually extending way past what we see.
His down tilt actually wins against Bayo's in footsies. And by wins I means bayo just can't mash down tilt and win at close-ish range like she can against everyone but Sheik.

His damage output and how many hits he can string together is absolutely insane for a low/bottom tier.
Where he starts to fall apart is... proper DI on his options.
The vertical prowess and an entire kit of vertical set up and juggle tools - most high/top tiers would happily trade for what Falco has.
But once your opponent is aware of the match up to the extent which they're properly DI-ing/reacting, his combos stop existing because he lacks any horizontal mobility; anything but immediate buffering of jumps from his hitconfirms due to the aformentioned and slow jump start up (this isn't all negative, his dash skid animation/slide/jump start up has very niche whiff punishing applications but I dont know if its real enough to be a consistent thing) kills him.
His up air frame traps with a large advantage, getting into their bodies with an up air as they air dodge knowing a bair is about to kill them off the top at <100% is great. But again, good DI/aerial acceleration kills it.
He has down throw and up throw DI mix ups which can set up the traps/combo as well (optimal down throw DI sets up for up throw, one of the two 'best' DI options on up throw sets up for dthrow).

There are some possible work-arounds, the way DI is impacted by facing position\angle difference from the bone hitbox that confirms means that the 'just hold away' DI can be more than just a dead end for him. But due to the poor mobility he can't really get to the positions he needs to, to then turn around, to then get that initial DI mess up into insane damage like Zero Suit/Sheik/Cloud/etc can and do (and players will advance heavily in this department over time).
If his behind head hit of up tilt hit low to the ground like Fox; that would glue him together significantly - for the most part what happens is three-quarters of the cast will take one of the two hits then get to hit him for free; but if somehow you do hit them with the back hit properly while they hold away from you, they'll go straight up and suddenly that combos into his entire aerial moveset forever (maybe not dair*). Ganondorf and Rosa are primed to be put into a DAI PINCHI.
His next best thing is reverse up airs for a similar affect.

Nair being 'consistent' (some of the multi hits are 'good' for landing with non-frame disadvantage, while the rest gets you hit for free) would be pleasant.
His jab mix ups work on several floaties (jab1 primarily; well spaced only). The brawl classic. Catching people mid-air (i.e. about to land) with this can be rewarding (hello invincible leg up smash), but again, how's he getting into the position for this with his poor horizontal mobility?

I know that I could turn Falco into an amazingly fun high tier (without the obnoxious implications of his past iterations) with one swoop (ok, I kid, a little bit of tuning necessary). It's not as hard as you'd think, he already is one of the funnest characters in the cast to play 'casually'.
But chances are he's going to stay bad, with the occasional hopeful enthusiast or anecdote of someone not being prepared to DI properly and obliterated like it's almost melee to confuse you and warp your perspectives.

*Falco's dair is kinda similar to Clouds. Sure, no combos into it, but it's late sour hit and the auto-cancel is joyous. Due to his mid air jump he gets to edge guard with it in a way Cloud wishes he could (well, he does get late hit dair into nair >.>; but this is a lot easier with Falco lol)

 

[FeelMeUp]

snip

For the sake of compiling information on lesser-known characters so they don't steamroll solely off of matchup inexperience, what would you say perfect DI on both Dthrow and Uthrow are based on percents?
Proper DI on his laser based kill throws to avoid the lasers(Bthrow and Uthrow) would help as well.

 

[Shaya]

For the sake of compiling information on lesser-known characters so they don't steamroll solely off of matchup inexperience, what would you say perfect DI on both Dthrow and Uthrow are based on percents?
Proper DI on his laser based kill throws to avoid the lasers(Bthrow and Uthrow) would help as well.

Honestly, it's kinda magic (to me).
Opponent trajectory and laser trajectories with rage/vectoring complicate percents. A lot of chars are just going to get hit, or suddenly are immune with up, down, away or (sometimes on up throw and bthrow if KO is possible) in.

Up/Away tends to be good, except on certain characters early with down throw follow ups (so down). Full away tends to also be good, but if that means your path back to the stage/ledge has less leeway, then Falco is happy (so people DI in or high or low depending on their recoveries which lets up throw work).

I'm no man of science when it comes to Falco.
Tend to feel like there is character dependency.

His grab game is alright/fine and there's no perfect answer to it; just he has a slow grab with poor range. It's his normals and aerials that are screwed over by simple DI.

 

[Krysco]

Times like this where I miss some of the posters from the older CCI's. In this case, Ffamran, even though he talked down about Falco a lot, I liked how much he went into frame data and compared stuff to Brawl. I also remember there being 2 noteworthy posters who focused on Pit a lot who are both gone. Can't remember their names though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Great buttons and combos put on a character with no mid range, no run speed and no real way to control or limit his opponent.

 

[ARGHETH]

Times like this where I miss some of the posters from the older CCI's. In this case, Ffamran, even though he talked down about Falco a lot, I liked how much he went into frame data and compared stuff to Brawl. I also remember there being 2 noteworthy posters who focused on Pit a lot who are both gone. Can't remember their names though.

One's probably LancerStaff, no idea who the other one is.

 

[Krysco]

One's probably LancerStaff, no idea who the other one is.

That's one. The other either had 'jazz' in their name or in their thing below their name. So they were a premium member too. Could probably look back in V1 or V2 of the CCI and find the user. I'm sure there's others like them. Only other one that comes to mind is RadicalLarry though he has popped in from time to time back in V3.

Edit: Gheb, Fenny, EternalFlare, Ninety, Fatmanonice, Yikarur, I wanna say Mr. Johan but I swear I've seen him post relatively recently back in V3. Might just be thinking of another Robin profile pic. L9999, Sleek Media, TheGoodGuava, Dunnobro, Zelder. And those are all just from the first 10 pages of V2. Good times, those were. Not to say the current regulars are bad or anything. And watch some of those still be around either lurking or my memory is just that bad

 

[Nu~]

Their name was Wintropy smh

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZHE4OeQwpY

So here's a tech that lets Olimar get better Dthrow combos (at the cost of a lot of grab range) and free 2-frames, while looking sorta easy to set up. Might be a cool thing to discuss?

 

[Y2Kay]

Do not worry friends. When world needs him most, @Zelder will appear again . . . .

EDIT: I miss @Man Li Gi T______T

 

[Lord Dio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZHE4OeQwpY

So here's a tech that lets Olimar get better Dthrow combos (at the cost of a lot of grab range) and free 2-frames, while looking sorta easy to set up. Might be a cool thing to discuss?

Iirc back from when I saw it, one thing I think I saw was some pikmin (blue?) down throw into down air as a combo? Idk, but I looked back and posted about it in november, to no discussion :/
and yeah ti looks like it'll change a few things bout oli

 

[|RK|]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZHE4OeQwpY

So here's a tech that lets Olimar get better Dthrow combos (at the cost of a lot of grab range) and free 2-frames, while looking sorta easy to set up. Might be a cool thing to discuss?

What I've been getting from Olimar players is that this does allow for some more options, but at a lot of costs.

First, most of what Stickmin allows is possible without Stickmin. It's just easier.

Second, the range nerf is real. Personally, as someone who plays characters that like to grab, it will be nice not playing around Olimar's pivot grab anymore.

Third, if you mess up, you cost yourself advantage.

That's what I got from Oli Discord.

 

[falcoferret]

One's probably LancerStaff, no idea who the other one is.

Their name was Wintropy smh

 

[Deleted member]

I missed a lot in this thread, how goes it everyone?

4BR Tier List v4 Competitive Insight & Analysis Drinking Game!

Every time:

°Skeeter Mania ends a post with a question; take a shot.
°Emblem Lord corrects bad players; take a shot.
°People underrate Kirby; take a shot.
°Someone complains about Bayonetta; take a shot.
°Ness and Lucas players rage about you calling them clones; take a shot.

I'll think of more. Maybe.

°Shiny Legendary posting in a thread and then geing pranked by a well - liked Premium use.
°Someone says "x" character has great potential ( Falco ).
°Someone talks about "x" character having flaws ( Bowser Junior ).
° @Opossum and @Swampasaur as well as many other users like you make some funny jokes in the thread.
°Someone talking about "x" character losing an advantage if this happens.

I am not going to complain about you calling me a bad player; oh well. It is probably a joke anyway; I like your style.

Great buttons and combos put on a character with no mid range, no run speed and no real way to control or limit his opponent.

You do have a valid and good point. Are you referring to Ganondorf or Doc or someone else?

Falco's dtilt is amazing - it acts as a poke well spaced; visually extending way past what we see.
His down tilt actually wins against Bayo's in footsies. And by wins I means bayo just can't mash down tilt and win at close-ish range like she can against everyone but Sheik.

His damage output and how many hits he can string together is absolutely insane for a low/bottom tier.
Where he starts to fall apart is... proper DI on his options.
The vertical prowess and an entire kit of vertical set up and juggle tools - most high/top tiers would happily trade for what Falco has.
But once your opponent is aware of the match up to the extent which they're properly DI-ing/reacting, his combos stop existing because he lacks any horizontal mobility; anything but immediate buffering of jumps from his hitconfirms due to the aformentioned and slow jump start up (this isn't all negative, his dash skid animation/slide/jump start up has very niche whiff punishing applications but I dont know if its real enough to be a consistent thing) kills him.
His up air frame traps with a large advantage, getting into their bodies with an up air as they air dodge knowing a bair is about to kill them off the top at <100% is great. But again, good DI/aerial acceleration kills it.
He has down throw and up throw DI mix ups which can set up the traps/combo as well (optimal down throw DI sets up for up throw, one of the two 'best' DI options on up throw sets up for dthrow).

There are some possible work-arounds, the way DI is impacted by facing position\angle difference from the bone hitbox that confirms means that the 'just hold away' DI can be more than just a dead end for him. But due to the poor mobility he can't really get to the positions he needs to, to then turn around, to then get that initial DI mess up into insane damage like Zero Suit/Sheik/Cloud/etc can and do (and players will advance heavily in this department over time).
If his behind head hit of up tilt hit low to the ground like Fox; that would glue him together significantly - for the most part what happens is three-quarters of the cast will take one of the two hits then get to hit him for free; but if somehow you do hit them with the back hit properly while they hold away from you, they'll go straight up and suddenly that combos into his entire aerial moveset forever (maybe not dair*). Ganondorf and Rosa are primed to be put into a DAI PINCHI.
His next best thing is reverse up airs for a similar affect.

Nair being 'consistent' (some of the multi hits are 'good' for landing with non-frame disadvantage, while the rest gets you hit for free) would be pleasant.
His jab mix ups work on several floaties (jab1 primarily; well spaced only). The brawl classic. Catching people mid-air (i.e. about to land) with this can be rewarding (hello invincible leg up smash), but again, how's he getting into the position for this with his poor horizontal mobility?

I know that I could turn Falco into an amazingly fun high tier (without the obnoxious implications of his past iterations) with one swoop (ok, I kid, a little bit of tuning necessary). It's not as hard as you'd think, he already is one of the funnest characters in the cast to play 'casually'.
But chances are he's going to stay bad, with the occasional hopeful enthusiast or anecdote of someone not being prepared to DI properly and obliterated like it's almost melee to confuse you and warp your perspectives.

*Falco's dair is kinda similar to Clouds. Sure, no combos into it, but it's late sour hit and the auto-cancel is joyous. Due to his mid air jump he gets to edge guard with it in a way Cloud wishes he could (well, he does get late hit dair into nair >.>; but this is a lot easier with Falco lol)

This post is very accurate. Falco is underrated. Heck, ZeRo thinks Falco should be a mid tier. People seem to overreact to Falco not having as much of a solid air game as he did in Brawl or Melee. Falco does have some tools and his air game was actually buffed. Down tilt to forward air is actually a good combo and can give characters with poor recoveries some huge trouble. Falco is a very fun character to play "casually", getting that down air spike is a lot more satisfying now as it has been nerfed and it is kind of laggy now.

Reel it in smh

Topics in here can become repetitive, but there's only so much that can be done from discussion alone. Especially in an off-season.

For example, even if we theorize a million ways to complete counter Bayonetta, it would mean little unless someone actually puts it into practice. So I would suggest using this to your own advantages; if there's something you're interested in, feel free to discuss it!

Glad someone said this. The M.E.T.A in Smash 4 has mostly been finding ways to counter Bayonetta. I mean if people just used low tiers more maybe they could have more of a chance if they preformed these counters against Bayonetta. I feel like the threads can sometimes be discussing too much about top tiers or high tiers rather than low tiers. At least Smash 4 is more balanced than Melee and Brawl.

Jr’s main problem is that his gameplan is completely one dimensional. He almost completely relies on his side B to get anything started and he thrives against players that flat out don’t know the matchup or feel uncomfortable fighting Jr. (He’s a strange character so some people at low levels of play don’t like fighting him)

This is why Jr at a low to mid level of competition can do good work because when his gameplan does work, Jr can look pretty scary with high damage racking combos, some good aerials that are strong and have nice big lingering hitboxes, pretty consistent kill combo that can start killing as early as 65-70% depending on certain factors, and a decent item in Mecha Koopa that can control the stage and help with approaches and be pretty versatile overall.

But once you play players who are comfortable fighting Jr and know how to exploit his hollow gameplan, that’s when things turn bad for Jr. his ground game is awful, his tilts are not very good, his jab 1 is ok but leads to nothing, his rapid jab is abysmal, he gets basically nothing out of any sort of movement tech, his grab is awful (pivot grab is pretty nice though) and even if you land it you don’t get much out of it. His smash attacks however are nice, f smash can be pretty safe to throw out and is really strong, and up smash is a good out of shield killing option.

Jr is really bad guys, and the future looks bleak because his meta has stagnated. I don’t think he’s quite bottom 5 tho because he has a few things going For him, but yeah thinks don’t look great lol

Pretty much. Even ZeRo thinks he is bottom three ( which is a bit odd ). The thing is after Tweek dropped Bowser Junior to main Cloud, I do not think Bowser Junior has had proper play. And besides his Smash attacks and other special moves as you said before, he can not do much, maybe ( I do not know honestly ) it can lead to follow ups, probably not. Bowser Junior does not like Rosalina, Cloud and Bayonetta being common in competitive play; which are bad match ups for him. But keep in mind that is the problem with other low tiers and bottom tiers.

Keep up the good work, thread!

 

[Crooked Crow]

Times like this where I miss some of the posters from the older CCI's. In this case, Ffamran, even though he talked down about Falco a lot, I liked how much he went into frame data and compared stuff to Brawl. I also remember there being 2 noteworthy posters who focused on Pit a lot who are both gone. Can't remember their names though.

>yfw you've been a member for 10 years

Every time I lurk an old Smash 64, Melee, or Brawl thread, it really is a trip down memory lane. Dang. Where does time go?

 

[Onua]

I do firmly believe Palutena is largely held back by her almost total lack of representation. Character has a lot of really great strengths and really doesnt struggle that hard in any MU outside of say Sheik, Diddy and Sonic.
No one plays her though (I cant fault them for it since there are better and far easier characters than her) but it baffles me how little she is used sometimes. Character has strong tools to wall people out and a great grab game alongside a decent MU spread. Wish more people would use her or try her out. I doubt that will happen though.

 

[Bowserboy3]

(Lucario) has a monster pivot grab and GREAT dash speed at 1.8

Just a minor correction here, as I knew this was wrong; had to check the exact value though, aha!

Lucario's dash speed isn't that good. It's below average, at 1.55 (still usable though!).

Only reason that stood out to me is because I know Marth's is 1.785 and no way is Lucario faster than Marth looool.

Edit: Unless you're talking specifically about foxtrot speed (which may just be called dash)? That I do not know about.

 

[|RK|]

Just a minor correction here, as I knew this was wrong; had to check the exact value though, aha!

Lucario's dash speed isn't that good. It's below average, at 1.55 (still usable though!).

Only reason that stood out to me is because I know Marth's is 1.785 and no way is Lucario faster than Marth looool.

Edit: Unless you're talking specifically about foxtrot speed (which may just be called dash)? That I do not know about.

Foxtrot, yes! Lucario's run speed is pretty meh.

Sorry, I use "dash" since it's in the movement doc

 

[Frihetsanka]

What's up with B-tier characters? They are supposedly very strong and should thus be played more, yet many of them seem somewhat uncommon. In this post I will hypothesize why that is. Most of this is speculation, so it should be taken with a grain of salt (most of this is based on my observations).

B:

Corrin (): Corrin has a really good MU chart and really good theory, yet she is rarely seen at higher levels (and, from my understanding, she isn't all that common at lower levels either). I believe there are a few reasons for this: Firstly, she is DLC, and the last released character (together with Bayonetta). While Bayonetta gained popularity because she was (and still is) overpowered, Corrin had no such luck. Furthermore, Cloud basically has a similar MU chart that is better in many ways, and is also arguably easier to play (and Final Fantasy VII is a much more popular than Fire Emblem Fates, which might be a factor, especially at lower levels). Additionally, Marth and Lucina are also similar in many ways, and Marth is a Melee veteran who was very popular in Melee and still is popular at lower levels. Ultimately, I believe the strongest reason why Corrin is underplayed is that Cloud is simply better (oh, and losing to Diddy Kong, Fox, Sheik, and Cloud, even if they are just slight losses, is rather annoying if you're a top level player).

Lucina (): Lucina (and Marth) have similar problems to Corrin. Unlike Corrin, Marth and Lucina seem to be very popular at lower levels. If I were to guess, I would place them in top 5 most popular in non-top level play, with Marth likely being more popular than Lucina. Anyway, Marth and Lucina were perceived to be underpowered at the release of the game, which likely reduced their potential playerbase. They eventually got buffed but by then many potential Marth/Lucina players had already moved on to other characters (this is speculation, but it seems plausible). Oh, but the biggest issue might, yet again, be Cloud. Why play Marth or Lucina when you can play Cloud? Regarding Marth and Lucina, they both have some reason why people might not want to play them. Marth: Spacing tippers can be hard, inconsistent, and frustrating. Lucina: Marth is generally believed to be better than Lucina, as are Corrin and Cloud.

Pikachu (): Pikachu is considered by many secretly really, really good. Pikachu is also considered one of the most mechanically difficult character to play, which probably discourages many potential Pikachu mains. If you're willing to play a technical character who struggles to KO, why not play Sheik?

Meta Knight (): Ironically enough, I believe Brawl is a major reason why Meta Knight isn't more popular than he is. When Smash 4 was released, Meta Knight wasn't very good in Smash 4, and going from Brawl Meta Knight to Smash 4 Meta Knight was likely frustrating, so many former Brawl Meta Knight mains moved on. He eventually got buffed, but then nerfed again. Why isn't he played more now, then? Well... This is speculation, but I think one of the reasons is that his gameplay is rather linear, which many top players might find boring (at least when using him as a main, he might be more appealing as a secondary).

Lucario (): Have you seen Lucario's MU chart? It's kind of bad for a B-tier character (which makes me think Lucario should be C-tier, but I digress). Lucario can be stressful to play, since you rely so much on aura in order to win. Lose a stock early and you'll be behind. This stress factor combined with his overall not great MU chart probably turns many players away from Lucario.

Luigi (): Big nerfs hurt, and he can also shares many of Mario's weaknesses (from my understanding), even if Mario and Luigi are very different in this game. The biggest reason, especially at lower levels, might be his down-B. Most players don't know how to mash it well and most don't want to learn how to. Oh, and his air speed is the second lowest in the game and he has the lowest traction in the game (which means that he glides a lot on the ground), which can be annoying when you're not used to it.

Captain Falcon (): If I were to guess, I would say that Captain Falcon is one of the most popular characters in the game at lower levels. Why isn't he used more at higher levels, then? I believe the biggest reason is his MU chart, which leaves a lot to be desired. His playstyle is very different from most characters too, and not everyone might like that. Still, I think his biggest issue is his MU chart.

Peach (): Peach is a very technical character who forces you to learn a whole new mechanic (floating) in order to do well. She's also barely B-tier, which means that the rewards for learning such a technical character aren't that great.

What about C-tier? I think Olimar () and Greninja () have a good chance of being B-tier characters. Olimar got nerfed from Brawl and is a very strange character to play, which is probably one of the reasons why he isn't used more. As for Greninja, I'm not really sure why he's not used more. Too technical with not enough reward to justify using him over a top tier or Pikachu?

 

[SJMistery]

Indeed, the main problem of Falcon, Luigi, Pikachu, Peach, Olimar and Greninja is that they cross the Difficult but Awesome territory to be borderline Awesome, but Impractical.

They require a lot of knowledge and patience, and have quirky mechanics that detract most players. They HAVE massive potential, but when you have something like Cloud, Diddy or Bayonetta, with astounding strenghts, minimal weaknesses, easy learning curve, and the same potential, characters like those above seem like a joke in comparison to the majority of low-level players.
And because almost no one picks them up, even fewer players bother to try and improve with them, meaning you will be able to count with one hand the amount of top level players that use each of those characters efficiently (well, maybe two in case of Pikachu, Greninja and Falcon, due players picking them up due to series popularity or memetic reasons).

 

[Heracr055]

Well, yeah. A tier list's greatest aim is to show what characters have the best chance of winning a tourney for the least amount of effort. That's why you don't see technical characters such as Peach and Luigi on top.
And Falcon isn't difficult to use

 

[|RK|]

What Lucario MU chart are we looking at?

 

[Lukingordex]

When he actually proves it and doesn't get carried off theory. Not a jab at Lucas at all but Lucas doesn't have Ness' results and they both suffer from a lack of consistent showings at tournaments from their mains. People keep saying this but I frankly don't see it.

Lucas has always done relatively well in Japan at least, and Ness has a lot of really crappy Match ups such as Rosalina and Marcina while Lucas doesn't have any MUs that are "terrible", Lucas is a lot more solo mainable than Ness. I think Ness is in the right spot but Lucas could be a little higher

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja does have a lot of good players. It's pretty remarkable, considering his difficulty. Greninja has already done enough to be in B tier, even when considering it was before the results spike.

 

[bc1910]

Why do people still consider Greninja to be difficult to use?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I think it is because he moves fast but has slow moves.
His Water Shuriken cannot be stored and has different properties when charged. Comparing him to Pikachu, his Hydro Pump is slower and harder to control for me. The timing to change angles is different and I think he can choose more directions than Pikachu.