Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MarioManTAW]

Lack of representation usually directly relates to how good or bad a character is. If a character is good more people will pick them up. The cream rises to the top. Even after huge nerfs characters like Diddy and Bayo were found to be good and regained representation. There has been plenty of time for the meta to evolve, people to experiment and characters to be sorted. For the most part the worse a character is, the less results they'll see with a few exceptions like Dark Pit being widely regarded as a worse version of Pit.

That's not entirely true. While character tiers may be a factor in who is common, it is certainly not the only one. Some of the characters that are widely considered to be good are uncommon, either due to being unconventional (), too difficult (), or just plain not fun for many (). Additionally, some characters that are not as good have more representation for being conventional, easy, and fun (). You mention as an exception and that's a fair point, but there are more too. has the same problem compared to , and a lot of characters (especially harder ones) lose potential players to similar, easier (or more rewarding) characters.

 

[Rizen]

That's not entirely true. While character tiers may be a factor in who is common, it is certainly not the only one. Some of the characters that are widely considered to be good are uncommon, either due to being unconventional (), too difficult (), or just plain not fun for many (). Additionally, some characters that are not as good have more representation for being conventional, easy, and fun (). You mention as an exception and that's a fair point, but there are more too. has the same problem compared to , and a lot of characters (especially harder ones) lose potential players to similar, easier (or more rewarding) characters.

Except for Rosa, Sheik and Sonic all have good results. You often see them at high level play. CF, DK and Ness all have respectable results because they're good characters and Ganon doesn't despite also being easy to play. Your point falls apart. Dr.Mario is a much worse character than Mario with significantly worse recovery and mobility and can't be compared to Pit/Dark Pit who are the same except for arrows, sideB angle and Ftilt.

 

[ARISTOS]

That's not entirely true. While character tiers may be a factor in who is common, it is certainly not the only one. Some of the characters that are widely considered to be good are uncommon, either due to being unconventional (), too difficult (), or just plain not fun for many (). Additionally, some characters that are not as good have more representation for being conventional, easy, and fun (). You mention as an exception and that's a fair point, but there are more too. has the same problem compared to , and a lot of characters (especially harder ones) lose potential players to similar, easier (or more rewarding) characters.

Popularity generally follows how good perception is surrounding a character. While memes like Ganon exist, popularity and results follow in a pretty linear fashion.

Here's an example from summer 2016 (a more humble time).

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This is exactly why long term results are so important. Everything you just said backs up my point.

Not really

People don’t like to spend time on what they think is already solved.

New guy: “hey guys, I was wondering, should I main wii fit trainer, or Mario?”

Most people’s opinions: “don’t play wii fit trainer, she’s trash and unviable. if you don’t want to be really competitive, then just choose who you like the most. Otherwise, don’t main her.”

New guy: “Ok thanks!”

Never touches WFT for competitive play again

These scenarios happen, and they happen often. Even when doing character comparisons, this influences how a character is seen. The way you guys are describing Lucas for example, he relies on a zoning game that gets completely nullified by top tiers, with a lackluster grab game, worse CQC game than ness, and has really no redeeming factors (combos are SDIed to death, blah blah blah). If I was a new player, I would interpret that as,” why should I spend my time with Lucas, when looking at this, i should play Ness instead?”

“They’re not the same, stop comparing them!!!” Is what I hear and completely agree with, but I’ve yet to hear of something Lucas is good at. It’s not required for you guys to list what Lucas is good at, that’s on the player to decide, but opinions from experienced players from any outlet will hold significant weight on a players perception on a game whether intentional or not.

This trickles down to character mains telling people how their character ought to be played.

“What’s wrong with that? Clearly they know what they’re talking about, they play their main the most, therefore has objective statements and adjectives regarding their character”

I remember asking in the smash 4 Gabon thread,” how can such a limiting character have versatility in play style?” This is Ganon we’re talking about, Mr. bottom tier, bottom 5ish character. Ray Kalm and Vermanubis (two prominent ganon mains) argued about if a aggressive ganon is viable or not. They ended up agreeing to disagreeing (IIRC), but my point in this example is that regardless of how experienced a player is in their character, they will not remove all the bias they hold. “X character can’t do this, Y character can’t do that, blah blah blah” it just takes a creative player to do something extravagant.


EDIT: on another note, can yall name some people who are like glutonny (becomes one with their chatacter and stuff)?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Not really

People don’t like to spend time on what they think is already solved.

New guy: “hey guys, I was wondering, should I main wii fit trainer, or Mario?”

Most people’s opinions: “don’t play wii fit trainer, she’s trash and unviable. if you don’t want to be really competitive, then just choose who you like the most. Otherwise, don’t main her.”

New guy: “Ok thanks!”

Never touches WFT for competitive play again

These scenarios happen, and they happen often. Even when doing character comparisons, this influences how a character is seen. The way you guys are describing Lucas for example, he relies on a zoning game that gets completely nullified by top tiers, with a lackluster grab game, worse CQC game than ness, and has really no redeeming factors (combos are SDIed to death, blah blah blah). If I was a new player, I would interpret that as,” why should I spend my time with Lucas, when looking at this, i should play Ness instead?”

“They’re not the same, stop comparing them!!!” Is what I hear and completely agree with, but I’ve yet to hear of something Lucas is good at. It’s not required for you guys to list what Lucas is good at, that’s on the player to decide, but opinions from experienced players from any outlet will hold significant weight on a players perception on a game whether intentional or not.

This trickles down to character mains telling people how their character ought to be played.

“What’s wrong with that? Clearly they know what they’re talking about, they play their main the most, therefore has objective statements and adjectives regarding their character”

I remember asking in the smash 4 Gabon thread,” how can such a limiting character have versatility in play style?” This is Ganon we’re talking about, Mr. bottom tier, bottom 5ish character. Ray Kalm and Vermanubis (two prominent ganon mains) argued about if a aggressive ganon is viable or not. They ended up agreeing to disagreeing (IIRC), but my point in this example is that regardless of how experienced a player is in their character, they will not remove all the bias they hold. “X character can’t do this, Y character can’t do that, blah blah blah” it just takes a creative player to do something extravagant.


EDIT: on another note, can yall name some people who are like glutonny (becomes one with their chatacter and stuff)?

That's true and that causes characters to get overlooked but the longer a meta develops the less your going to see a overlooked or unpopular character just become good overnight especially without the discovery of some new techniques or tricks.

Using Melee for example that game has been out for 16 years even in its early days the really good characters were still widely popular and topped tier lists (Sheik, Marth, the spacies) while unpopular or overlooked characters because they were not thought to have any potential like Yoshi, Kirby, M2 remained at the lower end. Fast forward years of development, tech discovery and refinement and overall player improvement and very few characters were able to actually climb past previous though limitations, Yoshi being the most prominent example while everyone else like M2 and Kirby remained at the bottom because they were in fact had not overlooked and were as bad as initially billed no matter how much those character main may had protested.

Smash 4 is still young and who knows what will be figured out and happen to it over the years (I guarantee you people didn't think Melee would last as long as it did and it almost didn't) with more resources and ways to improve coming out each day it will not take long before we have a solid grasp on the abilities of each character, so while the past has shown that you may have some hidden gems lying low they are running out of the to prove so not every character is just waiting for that one player to come by that unlocks their hidden potential. Amsa Yoshi is a uncommon case not the norm

 

[bc1910]

Melee was released in an age where information sharing was a shadow of its current self in both speed and accessibility. It’s often said that Melee has developed more in the last three or four years than it did in its entire lifetime before that.

Smash 4 has been born in an age of instant information sharing and is already many years ahead of Melee in terms of relative development, even when DLC and patches are considered. The game also has a much shallower combat system than Melee.

Whilst I wouldn’t say today’s low tier characters have no potential, being low tier in the third year of Smash 4’s life is more indicative of potential (or lack thereof) than it was in Melee’s third year.

 

[Lukingordex]

Lucas doesn't really have anything all that threatening by comparison. Zair and PK Fire are annoying, but not hugely rewarding and certainly nothing Rosa can't handle. He otherwise isn't all that great at breaking past or dealing with Luma; Rosa's excellent drift can get her out of footstool combos; and his recovery is still rather abusable - Gravity gimps are rare, but his PKT2 is far easier to contest, losing to things like Luma jab. Neither of upB or tether can actually get Lucas to the ledge past a spinning Luma.

Long-winded way of saying "Yeah I could see Lucas doing worse than Ness in the MU".

This is not correct, Lucas has great tools to deal with luma. PK Fire, Ftilt, Dsmash, Dash Attack, all of those are very good tools to get rid of luma.

In neutral, if lucas stays grounded and don't jump for no reason them rosalina doesn't have any special thing that suddenly shuts lucas down. If he PK Fires she can use gravitational pull but Lucas won't get any punishment for that. Even though grabs aren't very frequent in this MU due to luma being in the way, Lucas' oos options such as Nair or Dair still does a good job of dealing damage and also gives luma knockback if she overcommits and hits your shield. Also, Lucas is not all about footstool combos, if he gets a grab, a simple Dthrow to Dair combo is already good enough damage to rosalina which is not a very heavy character.

Lucas will usually recover with zair, not pk thunder. Lucas can deal with Luma jabs at the ledge with a sweetspooted Fair or a simply get up attack which does hit luma out of her jabs (a lot of get up attacks doesn't but Lucas' does). Landing may be hard at times but Lucas has decent aerial speed and tools such as psi magnet to change momentum and avoid Rosalina.

Lucas also has a very potent edgeguard against Rosalina. If she has to use UP B to get to the ledge, them a Dsmash there is guaranted to get hid of Luma and most likely hit rosalina due to Luma extending the hits.

 

[BSP]

feel free to discuss something I'm interested in? 'kay

I'm pretty sure I've asked this before, but what neutral tools does Lucario have outside of Aura Sphere?

What is Game and Watch's tier problem? Lack of representation, part of his gameplay, both, etc ?

The above question, but for Falco, Pac-Man, Ike, and Villager (yes I know he's good but I want to know weaknesses and strengths)

Along with everything Aaron said, I think Pac-Man doesn't have enough top level representation and his playstyle is a bit of a turnoff. For the first point, Sinji is all he really has atm as far as top player in the U.S. goes. He could use more. For the second, Pac-Man is super tedious to play and I find my games/set with him are usually going towards a long haul.

 

[Deleted member]

That's true and that causes characters to get overlooked but the longer a meta develops the less your going to see a overlooked or unpopular character just become good overnight especially without the discovery of some new techniques or tricks.

Using Melee for example that game has been out for 16 years even in its early days the really good characters were still widely popular and topped tier lists (Sheik, Marth, the spacies) while unpopular or overlooked characters because they were not thought to have any potential like Yoshi, Kirby, M2 remained at the lower end. Fast forward years of development, tech discovery and refinement and overall player improvement and very few characters were able to actually climb past previous though limitations, Yoshi being the most prominent example while everyone else like M2 and Kirby remained at the bottom because they were in fact had not overlooked and were as bad as initially billed no matter how much those character main may had protested.

Smash 4 is still young and who knows what will be figured out and happen to it over the years (I guarantee you people didn't think Melee would last as long as it did and it almost didn't) with more resources and ways to improve coming out each day it will not take long before we have a solid grasp on the abilities of each character, so while the past has shown that you may have some hidden gems lying low they are running out of the to prove so not every character is just waiting for that one player to come by that unlocks their hidden potential. Amsa Yoshi is a uncommon case not the norm

I approve of this. I mean people will only play top tiers ( like me ) because they are good and they will win you stuff. I say the Smash meta would get a whole lot interesting if everyone focused on character strengths instead of weaknesses so Smash can be slightly more balanced. The sad thing is that switching into low tiers could cause you a lot of tournaments. Hopefully smart people can use them a lot more often and take a look at their abilities. I mean look at Duck Hunt; started from a low tier in the first tier list to at the top of the lower mid tier ( D ) and has a potential to rise into high - mid tier because many players used him instead of top tiers. I know Lucina was buffed, but Lucina went from a bottom tier to the second best character in high tier as well as Marth being from low tier to top tier. That is because people took time to find their advantages instead of using them top tiers. What I am trying to say is the Smash community should evenly focus on every character instead of mostly top tiers and high tiers.

 

[Rizen]

Not really

People don’t like to spend time on what they think is already solved.

New guy: “hey guys, I was wondering, should I main wii fit trainer, or Mario?”

Most people’s opinions: “don’t play wii fit trainer, she’s trash and unviable. if you don’t want to be really competitive, then just choose who you like the most. Otherwise, don’t main her.”

New guy: “Ok thanks!”

Never touches WFT for competitive play again

These scenarios happen, and they happen often. Even when doing character comparisons, this influences how a character is seen. The way you guys are describing Lucas for example, he relies on a zoning game that gets completely nullified by top tiers, with a lackluster grab game, worse CQC game than ness, and has really no redeeming factors (combos are SDIed to death, blah blah blah). If I was a new player, I would interpret that as,” why should I spend my time with Lucas, when looking at this, i should play Ness instead?”

“They’re not the same, stop comparing them!!!” Is what I hear and completely agree with, but I’ve yet to hear of something Lucas is good at. It’s not required for you guys to list what Lucas is good at, that’s on the player to decide, but opinions from experienced players from any outlet will hold significant weight on a players perception on a game whether intentional or not.

This trickles down to character mains telling people how their character ought to be played.

“What’s wrong with that? Clearly they know what they’re talking about, they play their main the most, therefore has objective statements and adjectives regarding their character”

I remember asking in the smash 4 Gabon thread,” how can such a limiting character have versatility in play style?” This is Ganon we’re talking about, Mr. bottom tier, bottom 5ish character. Ray Kalm and Vermanubis (two prominent ganon mains) argued about if a aggressive ganon is viable or not. They ended up agreeing to disagreeing (IIRC), but my point in this example is that regardless of how experienced a player is in their character, they will not remove all the bias they hold. “X character can’t do this, Y character can’t do that, blah blah blah” it just takes a creative player to do something extravagant.


EDIT: on another note, can yall name some people who are like glutonny (becomes one with their chatacter and stuff)?

I'm not talking about picking characters. I'm talking about character rankings:

Lord Dio And yet [ESAM thinks] Zelda is not Bottom 10. The regional bias is real here. If Sharpy was in SFL he would think Zard is top 30.

This is a good example of why results are important. We have years of data now, "hidden underrated characters" have had plenty of time to get represented and really should have some results to back them. Zelda mains like Ven have done good work but overall Zelda falls comfortably in bottom tier.

If someone wants to make a bold claim like 'Zelda's not bottom' (or 'pikachu's the best character in the game') that bump characters several places and tiers above the norm, they really should have long term results to back it up. It's easy to find a good player like Faress for Zelda and say "that character's underrated" but you could cherrypick single matches like that for any character. Is Palutena top tier because Prince Raymin (name?) beat Zero? No. This is SSB4 and upsets happen. It's easy to spot them because Palutena lacks consistency, just like Zelda lacks anything but bottom tier results.

That doesn't mean Zelda's 'lol low tier garbage' like in Brawl. You need to respect every character and know MUs. But someone has to be bottom tier. People need to get over their wishful thinking and look at the data when making theories.

 

[The-Technique]

can yall name some people who are like glutonny (becomes one with their chatacter and stuff)?

WFT= John Numbers
Elegant = Luigi
San = Ike
KEN = Sonic
Hikaru = DK
ESAM = Pikachu
Cosmos = Corrin
Samsora = Peach

Unrelated to the above, but some players have been putting time into ZSS lately, first Void who has been practicing her for months and now considers her "tournament ready", now Samsora who's gonna play only her at a weekly today.

 

[Minordeth]

Unrelated to the above, but some players have been putting time into ZSS lately, first Void who has been practicing her for months and now considers her "tournament ready", now Samsora who's gonna play only her at a weekly today.

Huh. ZSS for what coverage, though? Sheik does better than ZSS at all the MUs of the players he struggles with. ZSS doesn’t have an advantage over Diddy or Bayo, and his only other problem player is Nairo. I guess maybe ZSS for KEN or DK?

FeelMeUp I know you dual main them, but what was your reasoning again? I forgot.

 

[MH-Jin]

Huh. ZSS for what coverage, though? Sheik does better than ZSS at all the MUs of the players he struggles with. ZSS doesn’t have an advantage over Diddy or Bayo, and his only other problem player is Nairo. I guess maybe ZSS for KEN or DK?

FeelMeUp I know you dual main them, but what was your reasoning again? I forgot.

I'm a Sheik main/ZSS secondary.

He most likely picked them for grapplers such as DK/Bowser. While Sheik can destroy them in neutral.. It's pretty stressful not being able to kill them at an early point (unless you gimp them or get a charged up smash kill). While this is happening the grapplers are gaining rage over time and Sheik is a super light character. It's most likely the reason why VoiD went Fox vs Hikaru at civil war, for the earlier kill power along with having great ground mobilty.

ZSS does amazing vs grapplers with early death combos and edgeguarding. Plus if needed, she can zone them out with zair and has a frame 1 jab as a get off/close quarter disruption.

 

[MH-Jin]

Please delete, I accidentally double posted. Sorry!

 

[FeelMeUp]

If my ledgetrapping is off slightly or I'm dropping edgeguards over and over again, a few matchups become really obnoxious.
A good example is whenever I play Jerm in the matchup. It's so ridiculously hard for Robin to do anything vs ZSS that I'm better off using her if not playing super well.

Midlevel also has a variance factor in that she allows the opponent to interact with her more than ZSS does, meaning you have more opportunities for a mediocre or bad player to hit you with something silly. With you can win neutral 5 times a game and be done with it. So if I drop into Loser's bracket early due to getting upset and need to play non PR'd players, I'll go ZSS to sweep through the games faster and with a lower risk.
Of course, there is also the option of using her when I don't feel comfortable against certain characters(etc) at times on Town or Battlefield.

Edit: VoiD's main reason is probably psychological, however. Using Sheik and having to make a comeback feels like writing a 15 page term paper with a 5 hour deadline, while using ZSS from behind feels like playing the lottery with 1/4 odds.

 

[MH-Jin]

If my ledgetrapping is off slightly or I'm dropping edgeguards over and over again, a few matchups become really obnoxious.
A good example is whenever I play Jerm in the matchup. It's so ridiculously hard for Robin to do anything vs ZSS that I'm better off using her if not playing super well.

Midlevel also has a variance factor in that she allows the opponent to interact with her more than ZSS does, meaning you have more opportunities for a mediocre or bad player to hit you with something silly. With you can win neutral 5 times a game and be done with it. So if I drop into Loser's bracket early due to getting upset and need to play non PR'd players, I'll go ZSS to sweep through the games faster and with a lower risk.
Of course, there is also the option of using her when I don't feel comfortable against certain characters(etc) at times on Town or Battlefield.

Edit: VoiD's main reason is probably psychological, however. Playing Sheik and having to make a comeback feels like writing a 15 page term paper with a 5 hour deadline, while playing ZSS from behind feels like playing the lottery with 1/4 odds.

Definitely agree with the comeback factor. When I'm playing zss..I never feel like I'm losing even though I have a massive percent deficit. With zss we can still win off one conversion/neutral win (nair to flip kick or grab up air upb conversion). Plus rage is actually beneficial to zss.

With Sheik it requires so many more neutral interactions to make a comeback... Even after doing a 60% conversion. Unless you are able to get a gimp or playing against someone with a really exploitable recovery... We have to build damage to get to a kill setup or do a read. Plus rage doesn't help in terms of building percent.

 

[Megamang]

Void also has ZSS PTSD from all kinds of losses. you watch how he dominates the match in neutral and still loses and it really makes you wonder if the MU really is that much in Shiek's favor. I mean, the neutral definitely is... but is Nairo that much better than void, or does having a death grab for half the match (and a character who really can't punish that hard for ZSS missing said grab) kind of even out the neutral problems? It depends on how you define the MU.


ZSS also has great CP utility, not only violently destroying some characters but also basically forces you to ban TaC or DL and then going to the other stage either way.

 

[MH-Jin]

Void also has ZSS PTSD from all kinds of losses. you watch how he dominates the match in neutral and still loses and it really makes you wonder if the MU really is that much in Shiek's favor. I mean, the neutral definitely is... but is Nairo that much better than void, or does having a death grab for half the match (and a character who really can't punish that hard for ZSS missing said grab) kind of even out the neutral problems? It depends on how you define the MU.


ZSS also has great CP utility, not only violently destroying some characters but also basically forces you to ban TaC or DL and then going to the other stage either way.

Sheik definitely wins the matchup.. However it's not crazy in her favor. ZSS has really good frame data (one of the few characters that can contend with Sheik in that area), ridiculous kill power, great mobilty, difficult to edgeguard and a lot of her kill setups work really well on Sheik. However Sheik dominates in neutral and can carry zss horizontally across stage (can kill early on Sheikville with the platform), has the best projectile and can maintain super evasiveness in the matchup along with maintaining stage control. Also luckily ZSS is quite light so Sheik's kill setups work earlier on her than most members of the cast.

Another example is that Mr.R has a winning record on Nairo in the Sheik/ZSS matchup. While he has been rage killed a few times, we see how oppressive Sheik can be with someone like Mr.R's neutral... Which completely stops ZSS from getting her setups started.

 

[|RK|]

Edit: VoiD's main reason is probably psychological, however. Using Sheik and having to make a comeback feels like writing a 15 page term paper with a 5 hour deadline, while using ZSS from behind feels like playing the lottery with 1/4 odds.

Yeah.

I mentioned this a while back, but a lot of people look to counterpick MUs, but just being able to have a mental break is nice. Maybe your secondary covers another half of your playstyle, or makes an MU where you usually need to be perfect a complete steamroll.

It also makes your secondary better IMO, because you don't have to limit yourself to characters you don't like.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik ZSS is horrible for ZSS. You really feel it once you start playing the matchup from ZSS's side of things.

A big thing top Sheiks are missing right now is making the ZSS players "feel" the fact that they whiffed a grab.
Even VoiD, the most efficient Sheik at killing by a significant margin, will autopilot dash grab instead of....say, going for a guaranteed tipper Usmash as Zero Suit stands up from her grab animation.
If your opponent doesn't make your high risk high reward option feel risky, you're incentivized to throw it out as frequently as possible.

 

[Deleted member]

I am fine with Corrin's placement. Corrin actually has solid match ups when it comes to the top tiers, and Corrin does not terribly lose to the top four and Fox. I do not think Corrin is a top tier, but does Corrin still get good consistent results? @Das Koopa 's rankings chart shows that Corrin has more points than Marth and Ryu. ZeRo thinks Corrin is at the low end of high tier though. I have no clue if Corrin's results are lacking or consistent in a good way.

 

[Ángel Caído]

I’ve no idea if this has been discussed in the thread already, since it is too long for me to be able to read it completely in a reasonable amount of time, so I’ll just discuss it myself.

I think this tier list, although probably the most accurate to be found, is still not quite reflective of the true placement of a few characters. For example, I think Meta Knight should be categorized in the A tier. Here is why:

Compared to the previous season of PBG v2, in which he was ranked 14, Meta Knight has actually obtained better results in major tournaments. MK-Leo has brought him back to the Meta game and he defeated ZeRo in GT-X, which scored him a major guaranteed placement in the Losers bracket, although he won the tournament using Cloud and Marth for the most part. The contribution from Meta Knight was minimal, but still significant compared to a complete absence of this character in tournaments from the part of Leo and other Meta Knight players such as Abadango and Tyrant. The same contribution also scored Leo another major tournament win, 2GGC. Plus, we now see more top players bringing Meta Knight as a secondary/counterpick in tournaments to help their MUs, such as Larry Lurr against eSam.

Therefore, if we observe a bigger contribution from Meta Knight in this season than in the previous, should these results not mean that he is a better character in terms of performance? The same type of contribution earned Luigi, DK, and Cloud higher spots than previously. On the other hand, I think that characters such as Lucina and Ryu, who have not changed much in terms of results, gave no business gaining spots in a tier list when other characters deserve it. There are another 3 or 4 characters I think have gotten better results yet received lower placing, but I cannot confirm all that much about them. However, I know Meta Knight performed better this season, so I think Meta Knight belongs in the A tier.

 

[David Viran]

Sheik ZSS is horrible for ZSS. You really feel it once you start playing the matchup from ZSS's side of things.

A big thing top Sheiks are missing right now is making the ZSS players "feel" the fact that they whiffed a grab.
Even VoiD, the most efficient Sheik at killing by a significant margin, will autopilot dash grab instead of....say, going for a guaranteed tipper Usmash as Zero Suit stands up from her grab animation.
If your opponent doesn't make your high risk high reward option feel risky, you're incentivized to throw it out as frequently as possible.

I'm in training mode rn trying to get usmash to tipper on a zss buffering shield and can't get it a single time. The sweet spot seems to always either whiff completely or get PSed. Zss seems to be able to cancel a lot of her get up animation with a shield after a grab whiff especially dash grab which cancels it altogether.

 

[Locke 06]

Something I thought was really cool when watching Sheik vs Zss (specifically Nairo v Void at BootCamp):

When ZSS whiffs a boost kick, Sheik punishes with a drag down up air which forces ZSS into RCO lag. Or even uptilt 1 (actually the coolest) to get them into RCO lag.

Void punishes tether with soft NAir-->Needles-->Bouncing Fish at around 100%.

If you're actually paying attention to things like this, you see how non-autopilot players are. This set is actual insanity though with a million high level spacing interactions that will be missed by someone casually watching.

----

Something I'm thinking more and more about lately is that when ZSS, and Lucas & Olimar to a lesser degree, get grabs a lot of people don't know the follow-ups. Treating these tether characters as proper grapplers and understanding their reward out of grab seems to be scarce knowledge. I play Konga and know enough about Bowser to know what happens at what %'s when you get grabbed and it's fairly straight forward, but ZSS/Lucas/Olimar are much more complicated in their throw follow-ups. Everyone has a feeling when rage ZSS stuff will work, but if you told me that 113% rage ZSS kills Sheik at 14% with a grab, I'd only tentatively agree when it seems to be 100% true. Void dies to dthrow>BAir at the ledge (probably) because he doesn't want to get dthrow>up air>up b which feels like it would probably connect if he DI's in. But maybe this is a gap in my knowledge and not in other players'.

"Don't get grabbed" is a nice thought going into a match, but knowing what happens if you get grabbed is valuable information.

Edit: in Void vs Marss he gets grabbed at 24% and dies from the ground when ZSS has 127% rage. Commentators, Void, and everyone but Marss act similarly perplexed.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I’ve no idea if this has been discussed in the thread already, since it is too long for me to be able to read it completely in a reasonable amount of time, so I’ll just discuss it myself.

I think this tier list, although probably the most accurate to be found, is still not quite reflective of the true placement of a few characters. For example, I think Meta Knight should be categorized in the A tier. Here is why:

Compared to the previous season of PBG v2, in which he was ranked 14, Meta Knight has actually obtained better results in major tournaments. MK-Leo has brought him back to the Meta game and he defeated ZeRo in GT-X, which scored him a major guaranteed placement in the Losers bracket, although he won the tournament using Cloud and Marth for the most part. The contribution from Meta Knight was minimal, but still significant compared to a complete absence of this character in tournaments from the part of Leo and other Meta Knight players such as Abadango and Tyrant. The same contribution also scored Leo another major tournament win, 2GGC. Plus, we now see more top players bringing Meta Knight as a secondary/counterpick in tournaments to help their MUs, such as Larry Lurr against eSam.

Therefore, if we observe a bigger contribution from Meta Knight in this season than in the previous, should these results not mean that he is a better character in terms of performance? The same type of contribution earned Luigi, DK, and Cloud higher spots than previously. On the other hand, I think that characters such as Lucina and Ryu, who have not changed much in terms of results, gave no business gaining spots in a tier list when other characters deserve it. There are another 3 or 4 characters I think have gotten better results yet received lower placing, but I cannot confirm all that much about them. However, I know Meta Knight performed better this season, so I think Meta Knight belongs in the A tier.

Tier lists aren't just indicative of results.

 

[TDK]

This is not correct, Lucas has great tools to deal with luma. PK Fire, Ftilt, Dsmash, Dash Attack, all of those are very good tools to get rid of luma.

In neutral, if lucas stays grounded and don't jump for no reason them rosalina doesn't have any special thing that suddenly shuts lucas down. If he PK Fires she can use gravitational pull but Lucas won't get any punishment for that. Even though grabs aren't very frequent in this MU due to luma being in the way, Lucas' oos options such as Nair or Dair still does a good job of dealing damage and also gives luma knockback if she overcommits and hits your shield. Also, Lucas is not all about footstool combos, if he gets a grab, a simple Dthrow to Dair combo is already good enough damage to rosalina which is not a very heavy character.

Lucas will usually recover with zair, not pk thunder. Lucas can deal with Luma jabs at the ledge with a sweetspooted Fair or a simply get up attack which does hit luma out of her jabs (a lot of get up attacks doesn't but Lucas' does). Landing may be hard at times but Lucas has decent aerial speed and tools such as psi magnet to change momentum and avoid Rosalina.

Lucas also has a very potent edgeguard against Rosalina. If she has to use UP B to get to the ledge, them a Dsmash there is guaranted to get hid of Luma and most likely hit rosalina due to Luma extending the hits.

Using PK Fire in the Lucas-Rosa matchup is generally a bad idea, because

a) She can absorb it and at max range she can do it on reaction, and
b) Lucas moves backwards while using it, meaning unless he fires it up close and she absorbs it he can't punish down-b.

You say Lucas won't get any punishment for down-b, which is true (and one of the reasons why Gravitational Pull is not that good of a move), but this is one of the few matchups where it's very hard for Rosalina to be punished for using down-b because of how Lucas launches backwards. Plus, Rosa can still shield as opposed to absorbing and that's a better option unless Lucas is up close. And Rosalina can afford to get a lead and then just never approach, because Lucas isn't threatening enough in the general space Rosa wants to play (either really far away or mid to far range, watch out for Zair though). Lucas's OoS options are solid if Rosa overcommits, but the second she gets a lead she doesn't actually need to commit to anything in this matchup. Lucas's throw combos are pretty strong on Rosa, but that relies on Lucas getting a grab, and if he misses he'll eat a fairly big punish. Additionally, if Luma's around she can hit Lucas before Lucas can get to Rosa. Down-bing the PK Thunder isn't super relevant because of Zair, but it is still possible and you can put yourself in positions as Rosa to catch both Zair to the ledge and up-B should Lucas try either of them. The bit about get up attack beating Luma is interesting, though, I didn't know that.

This is a solid, high-level set between the two characters that shows off what makes this matchup so difficult for Lucas. Right from the start you see Vinnie put himself in a range to be able to react and punish Zair or PK Fire, while not being close enough for Mekos to grab or hit otherwise. from there, he bullies Mekos offstage twice, forces him to commit to bad decisions, and puts himself in a position to hit or absorb Mekos depending on what option he did and takes the stock in half a minute - all while keeping himself at a range where Lucas effectively can't play the game. Additionally, he employed platform camping when Luma was gone (This seems to work fairly well against Lucas in general?) and got punished for nearly every grab in the set, in some way - be it missing and eating a punish or getting hit out of his throw combos by Luma, which Mekos had a lot of trouble getting rid of because of the range Vinnie kept himself at.

I'm not going to fully analyze this set because it's past midnight and I want sleep, but this is my general take on the Lucas-Rosa matchup. I don't think it's truly abysmal (as the commentators in the above set implied) but it is really tough for him. Rosa is going to struggle more against characters that get in her face in general, and Lucas lacks the tools to approach in general while not being able to deal with a Rosa sitting just outside of Zair range.

I'm also probably the most negative one here about Lucas, but I hope this is as unbiased as possible.

 

[Megamang]

The lucas's in my region have responded to people platform camping them by either moving to secondaries or giving up on Lucas altogether. He really struggles to do anything meaningful, his projectiles are either too slow or punishable to get at you, his uair is small compared to Ness, and he can't really tomahawk you effectively with the slow grab without risk reward being massively against him.


I realize I am fortunate that my main character kind of laughs at platform camping due to uair, not even Bayo/Cloud really benefit from it so much as dragging the game out while they slowly lose their lead. You have to be proactive and can't just uair under then, more using it to corner them/control movement and predictively getting at them. Its awesome for megaman because its a situation where his low-risk zoning projectile actually has pretty amazing reward. Add in how fast he jumps up, how he can use rush to get places not in freefall, and how bair works with his mobility to cut people off with high reward and my opponents have decided it is better to push advantage hard and win neutral rapidly than try and drag things out.

Ironically, platform camping at SV with leaf shield seems to dominate some characters, laughably sonic is among them. I'd imagine lucas has little he can do to stop it.


--


Something I don't really see often is players just taking the platform with a shield and playing out a close range game. They kinda float around below it and never reach Salem. To me, jumping up there and slowly trying to win is the best idea, sure she can jump around and stuff but if you get her off of there you can claim it then start an offense because she doesn't have her platform anymore. Plus, Salem is on that platform when he is winning so the idea of 'get grabbed and die instantly' isnt so scary, if you're losing you might as well bet the horse. Between tomahawks, landing aerials, landing into rolls/dodges/shield, landing into jabs... it seems like Bayo isn't as safe up there as it seems. I also like to wait and when it starts moving back just uair them, but again Air Shooter is a special situation.

Above is about SV platform camping specifically. I geuss people dont want TaC or Triplat camping and end up there? IDK, but I had a headdesk when S4BC had commenators suggesting LYLAT against a campy bayonetta.

 

[PK Bash]

Lucas has no consistent answer to platform camping/general air camping (go to ledge or platforms, avoid landing onstage). The best move he has to cover above him is his up tilt and he can pressure low/distant plats with PK Freeze. His forward air can poke from underneath platforms slightly.

That's pretty much the extent of what he can safely/reasonably do about it.

This is part of why he is so bad at playing from behind. Much like when fighting Sonic, if you can force Lucas to jump to hit you to try to make up the deficit, chances are you are going to win - by not being at ground level, you deny him all his best options by default, and the options he does have to get you back where he wants you or just generally pressure you in this position are not good and can't be relied on.

There are multiple reasons you don't give Lucas FD - this is another important yet oft-overlooked one.

 

[Minordeth]

Something I don't really see often is players just taking the platform with a shield and playing out a close range game. They kinda float around below it and never reach Salem. To me, jumping up there and slowly trying to win is the best idea, sure she can jump around and stuff but if you get her off of there you can claim it then start an offense because she doesn't have her platform anymore. Plus, Salem is on that platform when he is winning so the idea of 'get grabbed and die instantly' isnt so scary, if you're losing you might as well bet the horse. Between tomahawks, landing aerials, landing into rolls/dodges/shield, landing into jabs... it seems like Bayo isn't as safe up there as it seems. I also like to wait and when it starts moving back just uair them, but again Air Shooter is a special situation.

Above is about SV platform camping specifically. I geuss people dont want TaC or Triplat camping and end up there? IDK, but I had a headdesk when S4BC had commenators suggesting LYLAT against a campy bayonetta.

Good post. Once again, it’s Salem counting on the opponent being ignorant.

Speaking of which, I was watching Voids stream a bit ago, and a top 5 player joined... and proceeded to spend an hour complaining about how he hates Bayo. His reasoning being that you can’t ever really adapt to a character like Bayo, she promotes degenerate gameplay, and goes into how she can kill at any time. He expands on Salem’s style, stating that Salem is the only Bayo so far that plays to win.

He basically implied that fighting Bayo is random, so the best thing you can do is do a ditto, as Bayo is the only character that can really punish Bayo.

Some chatters brought up Dabuz, Mkleo, and Esam doing well in the MU despite what this player was saying. From what I saw, he didn’t address Leo and Dabuz’s successes, and as for Esam, his only reason given for Esam’s success was that “his character is small, so it’s easier.”

He also went into how it’s not “fun” to fight her.

Now, I like this player. I like watching him play, and he’s a fun personality. He may have just been acutely salty and blowing off steam, but he’s essentially adopting a scrub mindset, and spreading it into a community where misinformation thrives.

I’m purposefully not naming them because I’m not here to really target them, per se, but rather the mindset at the top - which he says is a common one.

It just boggles my mind. Examples of real counterplay are everywhere, even in this own players matches.

Anyway, Sheik/ZSS is not fun for ZSS, and there’s a reason Nairo hates it.

 

[Rizen]

Lucas has no consistent answer to platform camping/general air camping (go to ledge or platforms, avoid landing onstage). The best move he has to cover above him is his up tilt and he can pressure low/distant plats with PK Freeze. His forward air can poke from underneath platforms slightly.

That's pretty much the extent of what he can safely/reasonably do about it.

This is part of why he is so bad at playing from behind. Much like when fighting Sonic, if you can force Lucas to jump to hit you to try to make up the deficit, chances are you are going to win - by not being at ground level, you deny him all his best options by default, and the options he does have to get you back where he wants you or just generally pressure you in this position are not good and can't be relied on.

There are multiple reasons you don't give Lucas FD - this is another important yet oft-overlooked one.

Can Lucas PKThunder platforms or is that asking to be punished?

 

[PK Bash]

Can Lucas PKThunder platforms or is that asking to be punished?

Not advised. Too slow to move it around, too laggy during and after the move (and very often punishable on hit), not enough reward to justify it by any metric. You can't use it like you can Ness' PKT.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I am fine with Corrin's placement. Corrin actually has solid match ups when it comes to the top tiers, and Corrin does not terribly lose to the top four and Fox. I do not think Corrin is a top tier, but does Corrin still get good consistent results? @Das Koopa 's rankings chart shows that Corrin has more points than Marth and Ryu. ZeRo thinks Corrin is at the low end of high tier though. I have no clue if Corrin's results are lacking or consistent in a good way.

I'm willing to bet that ZeRo is going to place Corrin higher in his next tier list, potentially even top 15. He did lose to Cosmos, after all. As for results, Cosmos has done really well these past months, good enough to make him a potential candidate for top 20 for PGR. Ryuga and Frozen have done decently. Corrin doesn't have the results of a top tier character, which makes sense since she's likely "just" a high tier character. She does (slightly) lose against some common top tiers, mainly Cloud, Diddy Kong, Sheik, and Fox. Bayonetta is debatable, some say she goes even, some say she wins and some say she loses. Aside from those MU, Corrin does really well and either wins or goes even with most of the roster. Her MU chart is better than most high tiers, so I think putting her in top 15 makes a lot of sense. She probably won't be top tier though.

 

[|RK|]

Something I don't really see often is players just taking the platform with a shield and playing out a close range game. They kinda float around below it and never reach Salem. To me, jumping up there and slowly trying to win is the best idea, sure she can jump around and stuff but if you get her off of there you can claim it then start an offense because she doesn't have her platform anymore. Plus, Salem is on that platform when he is winning so the idea of 'get grabbed and die instantly' isnt so scary, if you're losing you might as well bet the horse. Between tomahawks, landing aerials, landing into rolls/dodges/shield, landing into jabs... it seems like Bayo isn't as safe up there as it seems. I also like to wait and when it starts moving back just uair them, but again Air Shooter is a special situation.

Above is about SV platform camping specifically. I geuss people dont want TaC or Triplat camping and end up there? IDK, but I had a headdesk when S4BC had commenators suggesting LYLAT against a campy bayonetta.

Do you know who *does* jump on platform and hold shield?

E L E G A N T

When I was looking up differences between Ally and Elegant vs Bayonetta, that's one of the biggest differences I found.

And of course, Elegant does very well in that MU. He hasn't beaten every Bayo all the time. But you don't need to just to be good at an MU.

 

[MarioManTAW]

WFT= John Numbers
Elegant = Luigi
San = Ike
KEN = Sonic
Hikaru = DK
ESAM = Pikachu
Cosmos = Corrin
Samsora = Peach

Unrelated to the above, but some players have been putting time into ZSS lately, first Void who has been practicing her for months and now considers her "tournament ready", now Samsora who's gonna play only her at a weekly today.

How'd you miss Zack = Bayo?
I'd also say Fatality = Falcon and probably Ranai = Villager.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

@Nobie

I do not think these are gimmick characters. To focus on a few, I'll pick out Shulk, Duck Hunt, and Pac-Man.
Duck Hunt's Wild Gunmen have different properties. There are 5 in total, each with different hitbox timings, range, damage, and knockback angles (in the case of the Sombrero Gunmen, he has a fire vfx if he hits an opponent).
Pac-Man has 8 versions of his Bonus Fruit special. Each version comes with a different projectile trajectory, speed, damage, and knockback, not to forget the bell which includes a stun.
Shulk has his 5 Monado Arts which changes his stats.
Now, players who face these characters may generalize the properties of these moves but then this happens.

"One of the major causes is that information about Shulk is spread usually from people who don't play Shulk to people who don't play Shulk. While people do sometimes say something right about Shulk, the result of this is often some sort of misinformation about the character. Watching ESAM's tier list video confirms what I suspected about his placement on the tier list. They focus a lot on his faults, but do not see how his strengths overcome those faults.

Taken from the Backroom Pass: Now It's Shulk Time article

Linked here:https://smashboards.com/threads/backroom-pass-now-its-shulk-time.444409/

I think the reason the characters Nobie listed as gimmick characters are seen as that, is because they play different than what we consider is normal; and if we were to lose to a gimmick character, players can easily blame "lame" gimmicks for their defeat.
Another reason could be that players are trying to find the easy way out when it comes to learning how to play a match-up. Seeing a list of information, wall of text, or a long conversation about specific details of certain characters could quickly bore or make the player learning the match-up lose interest.
I would also add Bayonetta, Ryu, and Cloud to that list solely due to the community backslash/bandwagon that has happened to those characters within our game's tournament lifespan.

Short video example where Tekken players complained about Akuma in Tekken 7.
It's at the 7:20 to 8:12 mark.

Back to Shulk, his community has labbed plenty of advanced techniques that are documented on Shulk101.com.
The problem is that Shulk's current top/popular player in the U.S, Nicko (he recently said he retired from Smash 4 on his Twitter well from Shulk at least, but that he will still attend locals also he is still a active member in Shulk Discord), chooses to not use them which is very similar to Mekos regarding Lucas.
Regarding that, I think that since players do not see advanced techs being used regularly in tournaments, they may conclude that they must not be useful or extremely hard to pull off.
This reminds me of how Esam described Shulk in one of his tier list videos. He then repeats the same thing in his next tier list video but this time it was not for Shulk, it was for Duck Hunt.
He basically says if you have to put in a ton of work or learn a lot of advanced techniques to go even with another character, then the former character is not good.
Linking both of the videos with timestamps below.
13:18 to 15:11

4:45 to 6:33

-

Baby_Sneak

I agree with the character main bias. In regards to Lucas, I think his footstool combos can help him get around his Nair being SDI'd since they are indeed true combos. Oh and his down throw up to air confirm too (PK Hoohah).

As for listing what Lucas is good at, I think by doing that, I'm trying to help by listing what options Lucas has in different situations to defend himself, instead of just hearing players repeat the same arguement with no opposition or if there is some, they get easily discredited or ignored due to results and personal experience.

Like you said, players have to figure things out for themselves, and that's what I think I'm doing, but since I play Lucas, I'm subject to character bias which can hurt my arguement even though I think I'm using facts since I have tested the stuff I talk about, and have watched other Lucas players matches from his side of the match-up.

-

Lukingordex

Thanks for reminding me of the options Lucas has vs Luma, I totally forgot about that.
Reading all of that information that was about Rosalina's favor defeated me and had me believe that Lucas could not do anything vs Luma.

-

TDK

When I first read your post I was going to respond to it without even watching the video. I was going to say this is not a high level match and that Mekos does not know how to fight Rosalina correctly. He even put Rosalina as a losing match-up for Lucas and gave his opinions in a video, but Lucas Discord heavily disagreed.

Now to watch the match.

I liked how Mekos started the match off. He could of lived at 2:25 if he would have used PSI Magnet to stall his recovery while buying time to re-grab the ledge with Zair, since it takes a little over a second to be able to re grab the ledge again from when a player lasts grabs the ledge.

Mekos keeps putting himself in disadvantage when he PK Fires offstage, rolls around the stage instead of walking, and takes too long to use his double jump to land the up-air. That's the only reason the up-air traded with Rosalina.

I would say he is not confident in landing his up-airs from down throw, but he still shows this habit now, so that's not the reason.
He eats a up-smash from landing on Rosalina with a Nair which is a option that is generally looked down upon when it comes to trading hits.

Lucas's Nair hitboxes barely covers Lucas and if the opponent does trade hitboxes with you they will win.
This is because Lucas's Nair, hits 1-4 only deal 2%,with the final hit dealing 4%. Then Nair's hitboxes have a gap in between each hit where there is no hitbox and that hits 1-4 have low hitstun and low knockback.

Lucas can in theory can allow an opponent to combo him from a move that has long end lag into another move all thanks to Nair's low hitstun interrupting the first attack from the opponent.

Austy was sort-of wrong in saying that Lucas's tether grab has a long cooldown. I've heard from commentators a lot that Lucas may have the shortest tether grab range, but he has the fastest First Active Frame recovery when compared to other characters with a tether grab.

What I've learned from Lucas Discord is that it in is Lucas's best interest to opt for standing grabs over dash and pivot grabs since Lucas only got the grab buff to his standing grab.
It's a 46 First Active Frame (standing) vs a 56 First Active Frame (dash/pivot).

Mekos could have punished attempted to punish Vinnie's landing at the 4 minute mark but he instead rolled away.

At 4:20, Mekos could have landed a second Nair since Vinnie did not SDI it but he chose to land on the ground and try to follow-up with an up-air that Vinne air-dodged.

Mekos lost the first match due to his mispaced PK Fire and at a Luma aerial when he landed on the stage in endlag.
In the second match Mekos plays better in the beginning but now I noticed that he uses the footstool timing method to land his f-airs and up-airs which I think are unnecessary.

At 5:50, Mekos could have chose not to finish his jab combo and instead try to throw out a grab if Vinnie decided to hold shield longer expecting the full jab combo. Mekos could have went for a grab by interrupting jab's 1-2 animation with a grab by using the First Active Frames or the Interruptible As-Soon-As Frames (IASA).
Mekos could have also worked on spacing his f-air and Zair more so he would not get punished.

At 6:50, Mekos could of dash-attacked Luma to send it offstage but instead Vinnie did not punish Mekos standing next to Luma with a attack from Luma.

At 8:40, Mekos could have pressured Vinnie's shield with up-airs and PK Freeze which he would of needed to burn his double jump for it to even reach Vinnie on the right and the middle platforms. He eventually chose to poke with up-airs but by then I it was too late since Lums came up a mere 2 seconds after he decided to be agressive.

At the same time, Vinnie could have attempted to drop through the platform with a dair. I think in that instance if they were to go for a trade, what would matter is who could react first? Seeing as Lucas's up-air comes out on Frame 7 vs Rosalina's Frame 17 D-air.

At the end of the match, Mekos could of avoided being offstage if he would have Zair'd instead of trying to air-dodge onto the stage. I can understand it since he may have thought Vinnie was going to go offstage or edgeguard him.

After Vinne missed the first b-air, Mekos could have drifted towards the stage and tethered.
If Mekos was afraid of getting interrupted during his tether he could have either tethered to the ledge, and immediately let go to try and bait Vinne offstage.
Then he could have tried to punish with a B-air,D-air, or any other option he could think of.

Another option he could of tried was to tether above the ledge and use the Snakeskip and buffer an up-smash to challange whatever move Vinne decides throw out, tanks the hit (due to up-smash's first 4 Frames of invincibility and come out witch a clutch win.

That's all I got for the match. Now for the stuff you focused on.

I do not know how to say this nicely so I apologize in advance if this comes off as rude but Point A and B seems useless to me. Lucas's pushback from PK Fire does not play a major role in that interaction.

Regardless of Lucas's position, he cannot punish Gravitational Pull since it has a lower number First Active Frame vs. Lucas's PK Fire. Gravitational Pull has a First Active Frame of 45 and Lucas's PK Fire has a First Active Frame of 53.

The only way Lucas can reliably punish Gravitational Pull if he conditions the Rosalina to use Gravitational if they expet a PK Fire coming their way. Then and only then, Lucas has only the active frames of the move and the endlag to punish the move if he is near her.

Actually if Lucas uses PK Fire at point blank vs Rosalina and she decides to shield it, just swat the brat away, hopefully he learned his lesson. Oh and for the Mekos vs Vinnie match, Mekos did not use wavebounce PK Fire so you could say he allowed himself to get punished when he chucked them on-stage sometimes.

If Rosalina decides not to approach in any situation, Lucas can sit back with Zair, PK Freeze, and PK Fire as long as he spaces them well. Although PK Fire and Zair do low shield damage, PK Freeze does a lot fo shield damage and hits Luma regardless if Rosalina decides to shield or not. It even knock Luma away at one point and deals a lot of damage.

If Rosalina decides to keep shielding the move her shield can get very low to the point where it breaks. When it gets low enough, PK Freeze can shield poke her or force another defensive option out of Rosalina or even force her to finally decide to approach unless Lucas and Rosalina decide to run out the clock for a time-out.

If Lucas charges a good amount of PK Freeze, lands it on Rosalina's shield, then proceeds to run up to her and up-smash, that is a guaranteed shield break.

As for Lucas not doing well when at a distance from Rosalina, I think the 3 tools I just mentioned do a fine job of pressuring Rosalina, and I do not think Lucas needs to charge at her/approach that bad.

Lucas's tools outrange Rosalina and Luma, Star Bits even, unless Rosalina decides to use Luma Shot to send Luma outside of her range but that comes with the risk of losing Luma unless the Rosalina player calls it back to their side quickly.

As for forcing bad options out of Lucas, I think that comes from the Lucas player panicking and defaulting to PKT2 when put into disadvantage when offstage; I noticed that I luckily talked about it earlier above within a paragraph in this post.

Since you posted a match of Rosalina, I would like to post a match of Rosalina too. Only this time, the Lucas player convinces the Rosalina player to switch characters.

I'll analyze the match later if you would like to continue the discussion. I've been working on this post all day and I'm ready to send it now.

Edit: Correctly spelled regarding.
Edit 2: Correctly spelled convinces.

 

[The-Technique]

How'd you miss Zack = Bayo?
I'd also say Fatality = Falcon and probably Ranai = Villager.

True. I thought about adding Zack but I was worried about basically just naming top players main characters...also Zack has been teaching Salem his quirks too, lol.

 

[Lord Dio]

True. I thought about adding Zack but I was worried about basically just naming top players main characters...also Zack has been teaching Salem his quirks too, lol.

Being the best player of your character kinda helps you become associated as becoming one with them, which is why I kinda want to be doubtful about ranai, san, and cosmos. Best of their character, yeah, but you see Fatality pop off and you think "Yeah, that dude definitely plays Falcon". Little quirks that you'd see in the character (Hikaru doing the taunts, zack doing the same)
Tbh I'd add in Larry.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally think the competitive style and lifetime of Smash 4 is more like Melee. The game is definitely less floaty and it feels fast paced like Melee. I personally think it is slightly to the Melee side than Brawl side.

Judging from the overall meta, does Cloud or Sheik have the better match up spread right now? Is anyone going to talk about how Pac - Man wins the match up against Diddy Kong - - - Why is that? Just Curious.

Also I feel like some people underrate Samus. Her Charge Shot can be reflected, but if she gets far away from you than it can be a huge problem for you. That Charge shot actually kills pretty early and her grab combos are a thing to fear. Her recovery is actually better with her buffed grab range from Brawl and she can now recovery more safely than in Brawl. Also do not underestimate her missiles, that stuff can rack damage fast unless the opponent is very good at defense. The thing is her missiles are a bit predictable, but they are still a key thing to raising damage. Has Esam been playing Samus recently? I like Samus on the raise. I hope Samus rises in the next tier list, eh we will see. Just saying I am also glad to see Rosalina over Mario, Fox and Sonic again.

Also NINTENDO Galaxy has become one with Lucas I think.

 

[Aaron1997]

Is anyone going to talk about how Pac - Man wins the match up against Diddy Kong - - - Why is that? Just Curious.

Diddy Kong without Monkey Flip has some of the worst Air mobility in the game almost in the same tier as Kirby and DDD. Pac is very good punishing that because he can't really deal with Pac camping behind Trampoline and Diddy doesn't like being in the air unless he's in Advantage. (Diddy doesn't have a projectile to force Pac to approach). Pac is on of the best gimping his recovery because he throw Cherry/Strawberry to hit his Barrels and he doesn't have to give up stage control to do it. His only esacpe disadvantge is a laggy and predicable move (Monkey Flip). Its also just hard to get good use out of banana because how hard it can be to pin down Pac.

 

[bc1910]

I personally Is the competitive style and lifetime of Smash 4 is more like Melee. The game is definitely less floaty and it feels fast paced like Melee. I personally think it is slightly to the Melee side than Brawl side.

Judging from the overall meta, does Cloud or Sheik have the better match up spread right now? Is anyone going to talk about how Pac - Man wins the match up against Diddy Kong - - - Why is that? Just Curious.

Also I feel like some people underrate Samus. Her Charge Shot can be reflected, but if she gets far away from you than it can be a huge problem for you. That Charge shot actually kills pretty early and her grab combos are a thing to fear. Her recovery is actually better with her buffed grab range from Brawl and she can now recovery more safely than in Brawl. Also do not underestimate her missiles, that stuff can rack damage fast unless the opponent is very good at defense. The thing is her missiles are a bit predictable, but they are still a key thing to raising damage. Has Esam been playing Samus recently? I like Samus on the raise. I hope Samus rises in the next tier list, eh we will see. Just saying I am also glad to see Rosalina over Mario, Fox and Sonic again.

Also NINTENDO Galaxy has become one with Lucas I think.

Sm4sh is far closer to Brawl than Melee. It's a fair bit faster than Brawl, but its game speed doesn't even come close to Melee's.

I wasn't aware Pac-Man won the MU against Diddy Kong? Has someone in particular said that recently?