Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Rizen]

Diddy Kong without Monkey Flip has some of the worst Air mobility in the game

It can't be that bad; afterall it's the same as Link's- awww I made myself feel bad

Also I feel like some people underrate Samus. Her Charge Shot can be reflected, but if she gets far away from you than it can be a huge problem for you. That Charge shot actually kills pretty early and her grab combos are a thing to fear. Her recovery is actually better with her buffed grab range from Brawl and she can now recovery more safely than in Brawl. Also do not underestimate her missiles, that stuff can rack damage fast unless the opponent is very good at defense. The thing is her missiles are a bit predictable, but they are still a key thing to raising damage. Has Esam been playing Samus recently? I like Samus on the raise. I hope Samus rises in the next tier list, eh we will see. Just saying I am also glad to see Rosalina over Mario, Fox and Sonic again.

IMO Samus should be at the top of this list's D tier and maybe lower C tier. She has great bursts and combos, impressive frame data for her weight, good recovery and mobility, charge shot is strong and Zair combos into it, and she escapes a lot of weight based grab combos due to her weight and floatiness, like Bowser. Currently she's ranked under Robin: what the heck?

From what I understand her camping isn't that good due to laggy projectiles and she gets vortexed hard by CQC characters like Fox and Pikachu. But she still seems better than other D tier characters like Link and Shulk.

 

[Aaron1997]

bc1910 Sinji thinks that Pac wins

https://twitter.com/Sinji93/status/826127175648702471

 

[FamilyTeam]

I don't even know how many people really care, but
Indeed, ESAM did not put Zelda Bottom 10, and
To be completely honest, I am not going to completely disagree with that. In fact, nothing he said about her is wrong - him being biased that he fights a Zelda often or not.
Perhaps the only strange thing he said was when he said that Farore's Wind makes it threatening to hit her shield, which is kind of not true, Zelda's not going to use FW OOS unless you make like a super blatant mistake with an unsafe move, but it's actually still an option. Frame 8 with okay range, too.
Do I believe Zelda's not Bottom 10? Maybe. I thought 6th worse was enough, but I do think she has plenty to offer.

 

[Rizen]

I don't even know how many people really care, but
Indeed, ESAM did not put Zelda Bottom 10, and
To be completely honest, I am not going to completely disagree with that. In fact, nothing he said about her is wrong - him being biased that he fights a Zelda often or not.
Perhaps the only strange thing he said was when he said that Farore's Wind makes it threatening to hit her shield, which is kind of not true, Zelda's not going to use FW OOS unless you make like a super blatant mistake with an unsafe move, but it's actually still an option. Frame 8 with okay range, too.
Do I believe Zelda's not Bottom 10? Maybe. I thought 6th worse was enough, but I do think she has plenty to offer.

Not that I entirely agree with the Reddit MU chart but her spread is easily bottom 5.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6y4nu5/comprehensive_matchup_chart_for_all_characters/

Zelda barely wins against the other bottom tiers and has few even MUs. ESAM had her above Duck Hunt, although that video was over a year old.

Zelda's seemingly good if you play her game i e stay in her limited burst range for air and ground, but not up in her face. But she has no way to force you to. Zoners can safely play outside it, grapplers can shield grab with better grabs/payoff and other burst and combo characters are better at it. Her non-tether grab is f10 or 11. Zelda has an undertuned jack of all trades, master of none thing going on.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Not that I entirely agree with the Reddit MU chart but her spread is easily bottom 5.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6y4nu5/comprehensive_matchup_chart_for_all_characters/

Zelda barely wins against the other bottom tiers and has few even MUs. ESAM had her above Duck Hunt, although that video was over a year old.

Zelda's seemingly good if you play her game i e stay in her limited burst range for air and ground, but not up in her face. But she has no way to force you to. Zoners can safely play outside it, grapplers can shield grab with better grabs/payoff and other burst and combo characters are better at it. Her non-tether grab is f10 or 11. Zelda has an undertuned jack of all trades, master of none thing going on.

I think that was made using the MU charts of a bunch of different players. I don't know which the OP used for Zelda but I saw no shortage of complaints for the other characters, I see no reason to believe why it wouldn't be the case here.
Even within communities of Zelda players it seems like there's often huge disagreements what her MU chart should look like. At most I see the players agreeing she loses a certain MU but never with any real consensus as to by how much. It makes it hard to settle on how well she actually does in MUs, though we can certaintly speculate.
I would make my own MU chart for her, however I do not actually have enough expertise with Zelda to believe I am qualified to do that. It took me 1 3/4 years of maining Lucina and in the middle of that labbing her for over 400 hours in the span of 2 months for me to feel confident enough to make my first MU chart for her, and even then most people disagreed with it, even I can't stand looking at it nowadays.

 

[Deleted member]

Since V4 Backroom came out, they need to update the match up thread in Reddit. I just want to say that the voters "overreacted" to Pikachu, I mean Pika is not 3.0 with Ganondorf. 2.5 - 2.8 is fine. Corrin has better match ups than Mario, Marth and Ryu which is actually pretty cool. Bayonetta and Sheik are to 3.0 Ganondorf in my opinion. Ganondorf is underrated though. Corrin is not top tier but in the higher section of high tier yes. Greninja also has solid match ups and as I said before, he is almost guaranteed a spot in B tier in the V5 Backroom tier list.

Not that I entirely agree with the Reddit MU chart but her spread is easily bottom 5.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6y4nu5/comprehensive_matchup_chart_for_all_characters/

Zelda barely wins against the other bottom tiers and has few even MUs. ESAM had her above Duck Hunt, although that video was over a year old.

Zelda's seemingly good if you play her game i e stay in her limited burst range for air and ground, but not up in her face. But she has no way to force you to. Zoners can safely play outside it, grapplers can shield grab with better grabs/payoff and other burst and combo characters are better at it. Her non-tether grab is f10 or 11. Zelda has an undertuned jack of all trades, master of none thing going on.

The thing with Zelda is her moves are kind of laggy, and being a slow but tall character does not help her. Especially with the likes of Bayonetta. Zelda does have some things going for her, like that up b combo. That is some deadly stuff right there. It does not help that a lot of people put her in the 5th worst to the worst character in the game.

 

[Rizen]

I think that was made using the MU charts of a bunch of different players. I don't know which the OP used for Zelda but I saw no shortage of complaints for the other characters, I see no reason to believe why it wouldn't be the case here.

It says most MU charts were from this list:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/66tock/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v6/
So Ven, Fairess and Onpu. (edit) which imo are very optimistic.

 

[FamilyTeam]

It says most MU charts were from this list:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/66tock/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v6/
So Ven, Fairess and Onpu. (edit) which imo are very optimistic.

V6? But there's a V7 topic out.
The only difference for Zelda is that Ven updated their chart, and if anything it's more optimistic:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I think some of these are a bit... out there? But it again shows how non-standard the opinions of Zeldas can be in MUs.
There's a lot that helps twist the views of Zeldas to be so different from each other. She can be a very unorthodox MU and she has more options than it seems. Some playstyles with certain characters might have a harder time against her. It seems like it's all very region and experience dependant - experience on both sides.

 

[KakuCP9]

Quick question. I was catching up with some 2gg matches and I saw players footstooling Luigi to escape Elegant's regrab situations. Is the escape method character dependant or damage dependant?

 

[bc1910]

V6? But there's a V7 topic out.
The only difference for Zelda is that Ven updated their chart, and if anything it's more optimistic:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I think some of these are a bit... out there? But it again shows how non-standard the opinions of Zeldas can be in MUs.
There's a lot that helps twist the views of Zeldas to be so different from each other. She can be a very unorthodox MU and she has more options than it seems. Some playstyles with certain characters might have a harder time against her. It seems like it's all very region and experience dependant - experience on both sides.

The evens look way off to me. Around half of them could be -1 or worse. If Zelda had that kind of MU spread we’d at least see her make it out of pools more often than she does.

 

[Laken64]

I wasn't aware Pac-Man won the MU against Diddy Kong? Has someone in particular said that recently?

Zero also believes that Pacman can give Diddy trouble operating in neutral as well in his last super detailed mu chart.

 

[bc1910]

I’d have thought Pac would have trouble killing Diddy. I can see why he would give Diddy some trouble in neutral though. Pac’s neutral is pretty good in general. I also find Pac the most troublesome to deal with out of the low tiers when playing as Greninja.

 

[TimG57867]

Zinoto's opinion also comes off potent first hand experience:

Diddy's superior kill setups and ground frame data keep the matchup from spiraling out of his control, but it's definitely an up hill battle that he can't end quickly. Diddy doesn't the have the ground burst options to quickly break through the hydrant, his air speed isn't good enough to dive in over it and the trampoline, and Monkey Flip is too telegraphed to reliably get Pac-Man through that wall. The combination of it and the trampoline also gives him few opportunities to get a banana trip, Key makes grounded Banana Pluck risky, Pac-Man's Up B makes him tough to pin down, and peanuts and banana also don't do enough damage to dispatch of the hydrant from a distance which often forces him hit close up multiple times (like with his his D-Titl).

Lucky for Diddy, Pac-Man has no grab game to punish shielding and poor kill options. But it's still often a slog, especially on FD. If Diddy gets a stock deficit it can get rough and time outs are a very real danger. Looking at that set, Zinoto was probably very glad that Zage made some major flubs in that game 3. Namely that fail on the bell punish at about 12:50 and that desperation grab at 13:09. If Zage had gotten the first kill things might have gotten ugly for Zinoto. Overall the matchup just seems to be a chore for Diddy. Not horrible but not fun in the slightest either if the Pac-Man knows what they're doing.

 

[blackghost]

V6? But there's a V7 topic out.
The only difference for Zelda is that Ven updated their chart, and if anything it's more optimistic:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

That MU chart is absurd. If that chart was remotely avcurate zelda would be an upper mid tier.

Im not convinced players truly understand how to make a good MU chart or what message thier chart sends. As far as i know there is no chance zelda is even with fox, rosa, or corrin. That argument is absurd. And there is no data or theory to support it.
Even the descriptions next to the numbers are off. He is implying that zelda could still lose a mu he has listed at +1.

 

[bc1910]

Not horrible but not fun in the slightest either if the Pac-Man knows what they're doing.

Pac-Man is a pain to fight in general unless you're using Sonic. The hydrant is one of the most annoying moves in the game.

We should probably be grateful he's not a better character. I still have a sneaking suspicion he's better than he's given credit for these days. He does struggle to kill, but his neutral can be incredibly difficult to overcome and you WILL eventually die to stray fruit. Throwing said fruit poses no risk to Pac-Man either.

On the other hand there exists an argument that whilst Pac-Man slows the game down, you never really have much reason to actually get hit by his stuff. It looks like he's doing a lot when in fact he's doing nothing to actually threaten you.

 

[SJMistery]

Not that I entirely agree with the Reddit MU chart but her spread is easily bottom 5.

Zelda barely wins against the other bottom tiers and has few even MUs. ESAM had her above Duck Hunt, although that video was over a year old.

Zelda's seemingly good if you play her game i e stay in her limited burst range for air and ground, but not up in her face. But she has no way to force you to. Zoners can safely play outside it, grapplers can shield grab with better grabs/payoff and other burst and combo characters are better at it. Her non-tether grab is f10 or 11. Zelda has an undertuned jack of all trades, master of none thing going on.

I would love to see the justification for Greninja to be -1,1 against Bayonetta. The matchup is known to be -0,5 at worst. It's a volatile matchup, but Bayonetta does not come even close to countering Greninja.

 

[Routa]

People should abuse Pac-Man's mediocre at best air to air combat and his lack of threat once the fruit is gone. Characters with great weaving ability (like Wario for example) should try to wave in and out with Fair and try to catch fruit with well timed AD. Once you take the fruit from Pac-Man he is in disadvantage. This has to do with his mediocre at best aerials, poor burst options and lack of pressure when he does not have his fruit. While he may have some decent moves they are not enough to keep him together once fruit is gone. He pretty much becomes even worse Wario without Waft and grabgame.
This is one of the reasons why Pac-Man does well against Diddy. Diddy simply cannot weave in and out and take his fruit. Add to that Pac-Man's ability to shut down ground game with down and up-b makes it hard for Diddy to use his greatest strength to the fullest which is his oppressive groundgame.

 

[Finh009]

Umebura T.A.T starts tonight!

And it's very stacked!

Spoiler: Featuring

KEN
Choco
Abadango
Shuton
Earth
DNG | Kameme
HIKARU
T
DNG | Nietono
ikep
Kirihara
bAhuto
Tsu-
Eim
Pichi
Raito
Rain
Shogun
takera
Lea
Mao
Fuwa
Mangalitza
Lickey★
Kome
Ri-ma
Kuro
Matcha
Shu
Kisha
kept
Gackt
RSZ | Umeki
Zaki
Yakara
DIO
Ke-ya
Ginko
FILIP
Brood
Some
Tosshi
Songn
YB
/ / Hero

Pools: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...WvFSMXkbzq32hYXYzevGU2E24/edit#gid=1823127297
Bracket: (Update when available)
Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

 

[Deleted member]

I think Little Mac will always be an E tier character unless Macs continue to improve his game. His ground game is amazing but his recovery and aerial game really holds him back... Little Mac players are doomed to fight a skilled Pikachu and Cloud. Little Mac does have a dangerous ground game, down tilt to KO punch can be a quick zero to death. But a lack of tournament representation and his aerial game keeps him in E. Oh well.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

I also find Pac the most troublesome to deal with out of the low tiers when playing as Greninja.

Really? I enjoy this MU a lot if I'm being honest lol. Do you think it's more a personal or MU inexperience type thing? Or do you feel something about Greninja makes it weird to play?

In regards to the MU, Sinji recently went out and said he thinks Greninja is Pac-Man's worst MU now in a post-stream interview after losing to Venia again. According to his old MU chart, he listed Cloud as the same level of -2 difficulty, but I guess he feels that Cloud is more doable than Greninja in his opinion atm. Not sure how to feel about us being harder than Cloud, but Venia and Sinji play often to the point where Sinji is tired of losing to Greninja and has said he will always use Diddy Kong for that character now instead of Pac-Man in the future. At the very least, I can understand why he thinks it's so difficult for Pac-Man to deal with overall.

Pac-Man, along with a few others that come to mind like Yoshi or DDD is one of those characters that seem better than they are when you don't have solid MU experience or know how to deal with their individual tools, but once you do, their flaws hold them back quite a bit. In the case of Pac-Man, his entire neutral game can be exploited and used against him.

Greninja with his mobility can safely play at a midrange where he can pressure Pac to not safely be able to charge. If they try to stall in the air or offstage his high jump and hydropump can harass there too. Not to mention long range shurikens can interrupt. He can Uair through Pac dropping hydrant to cover himself and still hit.

If Pac-Man is z-dropping fruit too much or its onstage, hydropump can just push it away or offstage. Otherwise, he can steal fruit & camp with shurikens himself or z-drop recatch to still harass with fair or crossup nair while it is still in his hand. Because Greninja falls so fast, at mid-low %s he can still pressure & punish Pac for Up-B OOS cause he is fast enough to chase after on hit. He can harass offstage through shurikens or hydropump which will knock away power pellet before the side-b. He can drop low quickly enough to steal a trampoline bounce too.

If you get good at watching for Hydrant's health, or if you don't get baited into tunnel visioning on it while he's right there and could launch it with a key or something, Greninja can launch hydrant with fair nicely as well or counter it as a mixup. I don't think Pac-Man can punish a safely spaced disjointed fair on shield either. Greninja's jump and low profile when running makes it difficult to pin him down in the first place, it's hard for Pac-Man to do much if he doesn't have the lead; especially if Greninja is in control of fruit. If the Greninja is careful, it's hard for Pac-Man to land kill setups with the way he can maneuver through traps. It's an uphill battle all the way through.

I recommend watching a bunch of Venia vs Sinji sets, they haven't played too often as of super recently, but the way Venia plays the MU is probably the best out of all the Greninja's that i've seen, although it makes sense since they in the same region lol. Only other time I've seen the MU is Elexiao vs iStudying once and iStudying vs Pepespain anyways.

 

[Rizen]

Zinoto's opinion also comes off potent first hand experience:

.

This is a good example of why you should ban FD vs Pac Man (game 2). Even as Link I do this and Link generally out-spams him. Pac's stage control with hydrant, upB and fruits is incredible there.

That MU chart is absurd. If that chart was remotely avcurate zelda would be an upper mid tier.

.

^This.
IMO and according to other Link players Link beats Zelda +1. He can zone outside her range and has a lot of power. Link doesn't have a lot of speed and Zelda pops out of multi-hits like jab2>3 and Fsmash 1>2 so it's still a dangerous MU. You have to watch Zelda at all times to make sure she doesn't snipe you with upB. Din's is really bad and can be dodged on reaction.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Pac-Man, along with a few others that come to mind like Yoshi or DDD is one of those characters that seem better than they are when you don't have solid MU experience or know how to deal with their individual tools, but once you do, their flaws hold them back quite a bit.

Couldn't this apply to every character Link and below on this list?

 

[MarioManTAW]

Couldn't this apply to every character Link and below on this list?

Not necessarily. Some characters are pretty straightforward to beat ()

 

[bc1910]

Really? I enjoy this MU a lot if I'm being honest lol. Do you think it's more a personal or MU inexperience type thing? Or do you feel something about Greninja makes it weird to play?

In regards to the MU, Sinji recently went out and said he thinks Greninja is Pac-Man's worst MU now in a post-stream interview after losing to Venia again. According to his old MU chart, he listed Cloud as the same level of -2 difficulty, but I guess he feels that Cloud is more doable than Greninja in his opinion atm. Not sure how to feel about us being harder than Cloud, but Venia and Sinji play often to the point where Sinji is tired of losing to Greninja and has said he will always use Diddy Kong for that character now instead of Pac-Man in the future. At the very least, I can understand why he thinks it's so difficult for Pac-Man to deal with overall.

I think Greninja wins the MU; "troublesome" is relative to the fact that I feel Greninja wins against all the current low tiers. My own record in the MU is positive; there are just other low tiers that I have an easier time with.

My enjoyment is down to personal preference. I don't enjoy fighting Pac-Man because he barely engages. I don't feel like I'm playing a fighting game when fighting him; it's a case of waiting for him to stop messing around with stuff that probably won't hit you, then you hit him, rinse repeat for 5+ minutes. I just don't find that fun. There are other characters who barely engage in this game, particularly when they have the lead, but besides Sonic I don't find them as un-fun to deal with. Still, few things in Sm4sh give me more satisfaction than smacking Pac-Man in the face with his own Hydrant.

I would take Sinji's assertion with a pinch of salt, it's not uncommon for top players to overreact straight after a loss. I agree with Greninja having an advantage and the record between Sinji and Venia supports this, but to imply Greninja beats him harder than Cloud seems suspect.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

Couldn't this apply to every character Link and below on this list?

It was a pretty general statement, but I was just trying to imply that Pac-Man can sometimes get away heavily off of MU inexperience. A lot of his traps work better when people are baited or overcommit on him when they don't need to. When Pac-Man's tools work and he has stage control, they work well and he can hold his own (I can see the merit he has at least in neutral against Diddy for example). But when he can't fully setup or when he fights a character where his tools aren't an issue to maneuver around, he can't do much to overcome that and can be effectively crippled.

I would take Sinji's assertion with a pinch of salt, it's not uncommon for top players blame the MU once they've lost to a character a couple of times. I agree with -1 for Pac-Man but to imply Greninja beats him harder than Cloud seems suspect.

Maybe, maybe not. While I still think Greninja is legitimately one of Pac-Man's hardest MUs and I would agree with Venia & Sinji in calling it -2, I wouldn't say I have that much of an understanding of Pac-Man vs Cloud to call Greninja harder than Cloud so I can agree with that. Cloud seems to do what Greninja does, but easier and punishes harder in this MU. Although, he might be more susceptible to some of Pac's ledge traps and edge-guarding than Greninja is, among other things because he doesn't have a projectile (not a big deal if he steals fruit or charges limit tho tbh). I've seen Sinji do some creative things to Cloud. The boost in airspeed once he has limit does seem to make it hell once he can swing around and not care about what Pac throws at him while just keeping him in disadvantage.

However, it's not like Sinji doesn't have a lot of Cloud experience. He fights Ralphie & Darkblues pretty often in his region and he has taken sets off them multiples times, while on the flip side he has beaten Venia very few times if at all from what I can remember and they've played a lot as well. Sinji just seems to be more comfortable vs Cloud in general which could be skewing his perception of it possibly. A lot of Pac-Man players would agree with him in saying Greninja is a hard MU but I doubt all of them would say he's harder than Cloud like Sinji would.

He's also stated how Venia isn't the only Greninja he's faced, he's experienced it with other Greninja players when he has traveled to the larger majors a few times. I will say the MU is really uncommon tho, it's really only seen at a high level in one place, especially because Pac-Man is so rare to see these days.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like people underestimate Greninja. Greninja is like Luigi, can be simple at times but has a lot of nice tools to win the game. Shadow Sneak is underrated, it is a solid kill confirm and it can cause careless opponents to die and be surprised. The only thing that downs Shadow Sneak is an opponent can read it with an attack. I may be wrong, so a reply would be nice. Also Greninja's results could continue to increase, because I think IStudying is active again. I feel like as the m.e.t.a grows Cloud and Bayonetta will gradually separate from everyone else in the tier list by skill points.

 

[bc1910]

I feel like people underestimate Greninja. Greninja is like Luigi, can be simple at times but has a lot of nice tools to win the game. Shadow Sneak is underrated, it is a solid kill confirm and it can cause careless opponents to die and be surprised. The only thing that downs Shadow Sneak is an opponent can read it with an attack. I may be wrong, so a reply would be nice. Also Greninja's results could continue to increase, because I think IStudying is active again. I feel like as the m.e.t.a grows Cloud and Bayonetta will gradually separate from everyone else in the tier list by skill points.

You are correct, attacks can stuff Shadow Sneak before Greninja attacks when he reappears. The move would work better with invincibility frames, although due to the hitstun cancel it's probably for the best that it doesn't have them. Shadow Sneak is a bad move on the ground, but it's serviceable in the air and can work well as an edgeguard once you get used to the timing.

Also just FYI, Shadow Sneak is not a kill confirm, it's a kill move. A kill confirm is a move that combos (ie "confirms") into a kill move. For example, Greninja's Dtilt is a kill confirm at close range because it combos into Usmash.

 

[Lukingordex]

Out of curiosity, what happened to Megaman? He seemed to be on the rise some months ago and suddenly dropped again

 

[MERPIS]

Out of curiosity, what happened to Megaman? He seemed to be on the rise some months ago and suddenly dropped again

Poor guy got let down. Kamemushi isn't as good as he used to be...


Oh boy time to shift the conversation
I really been fixing to talk about Olimar and the potential surrounding him. I believe Olimar could be a top 10 character in a couple years if Shuton picks up the pace a little and goes to more tournaments. Our dude is one of the best damage rackers in the game, with his pikmin throw and his real good grab game. His grab is really nice and long ranged without a whole lot of end lag to it. His small size makes him super hard to combo and kill sometimes depending on the opponent's character. He has a nice little combo game as well, mostly from FF nair, jab, dtilt and dthrow, but his combo game is still there. He also has a fair variety of kill power too, especially coming from fsmash and usmash. Olimar also has a real nice upclose game, especially for a projectile heavy character that is meant to wall, jab, dtilt, and grab are all real nice for him, since they all lead into chunky, heavy combos, or can also lead into a quick get off me option, his aerials are also pretty sweet tools, they wall opponents out super damn well since their range, in comparison to olimar's body, is rather long. He is also one of the only characters in the game that can safely rack up damage from a distance while being a general nuisance to his opponent. Since the opponent is going to have to deal with the pikmin latched onto them, if they don't they take even more damage, but if they do then the extra hitlag and hitstun done to them lets olimar study the opponent and punish them for killing the pikmin off with the option they chose.

Olimar is not invincible though, he has some real stinking weaknesses, the biggest among these is his weight class, he's super light which makes him die really early off of slight mistakes, he also gets juggled really hard since his dair has low priority on it and his airspeed and fall speed don't help either, nair can help at times, but only some times. He can also struggle to get a come back in a match if he dies first, and if you stay on top of him he can really struggle to get you off without pikmin. He can also struggle to kill some times if he doesn't feel safe around fsmash or usmash. Which leads to rage and Olimar dying even earlier than usual. But these weaknesses shouldn't be enough to hold him down.

Anyone wanna discuss?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Out of curiosity, what happened to Megaman? He seemed to be on the rise some months ago and suddenly dropped again

For the reason of the decline of MM and Villager..DLC happened. Cloud and Bayo are pretty rough for them blth. Cloud just laughs at thier zoming game and Bayo usually eats them alive in disadvantage and offstage. Mewtwo is also a somewhat poor MU for them both too

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I think players just adapted and Kamemushi needs to be flexible with his playstyle.

Watching the Smash 4 Bootcamp matches of Peabnut, one of the commentators said that Peabnut told him something similar to the point I said, and that Peabnut's Mega Man can change playstyles in a way.

 

[MERPIS]

For the reason of the decline of MM and Villager..DLC happened. Cloud and Bayo are pretty rough for them blth. Cloud just laughs at thier zoming game and Bayo usually eats them alive in disadvantage and offstage. Mewtwo is also a somewhat poor MU for them both too

I'm surprised that the inclusion of DLC frigged over villager and MM, but not (AGAIN FOLKS) Olimar, he's still managing to stay relevant in the gross combo heavy meta we have nowadays.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

From an outside perspective, I do not think the Villager vs. Cloud match-up is that bad. Assuming that Cloud's aerial can nullify Villager's b-air and f-air, I think Villager players could work on creating a grounded focused game-plan around bait and punishes.

As for Olimar, I think in general, the character gets by on match-up inexperience and underestimating his range and damage.

If a player is not scared, they can try to challange Olimar's Smash Attacks with an attack of their own seeing as his Forward Smash, using all Pikmin, has low priority.

Lucas Discord tested it vs. Lucas's sweetspot Zair (does 4%) and the Forward Smash was beaten.

 

[|RK|]

From an outside perspective, I do not think the Villager vs. Cloud match-up is that bad. Assuming that Cloud's aerial can nullify Villager's b-air and f-air, I think Villager players could work on creating a grounded focused game-plan around bait and punishes.

As for Olimar, I think in general, the character gets by on match-up inexperience and underestimating his range and damage.

If a player is not scared, they can try to challange Olimar's Smash Attacks with an attack of their own seeing as his Forward Smash, using all Pikmin, has low priority.

Lucas Discord tested it vs. Lucas's sweetspot Zair (does 4%) and the Forward Smash was beaten.

Olimar's desync smash attacks are used for situations exactly like this. You hit the Pikmin and still get smash attacked.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Just got this video from Olimar Discord. I like this.

 

[MERPIS]

Just got this video from Olimar Discord. I like this.

This makes the bayonetta MU a whole lot easier

 

[Pyrover]

Olimar is a strong character but he suffers from the fact that all his Pikmin attacks have projectile priority, (re: none) including his aerials. Proper spacing mitigates this a lot but it is absolutely his biggest weakness, and the reason he has troubld escaping from juggle situations.

However, he can effectively walk you out while racking up damage very quickly, has decent combos, an eternally threatening grab, and much better kill power than most zoners. The character is good, and probably top 15, but I don't think he'll ever stand at the top of the tier list. The biggest nerf he got from Brawl was the lowered armor frames on whistle, as that was the whole reason you couldn't juggle him before. Now whistle can save him sometimes but the timing is irritatingly specific.

The reason DLC didn't kill Olimar is because he maintained good matchups with the DLC. Mewtwo and kind of Corrin are problems, but he goes even with Bayo, Cloud, Lucas, and Roy while having a slight edge against Ryu. The other zoners did not have those luxuries, and instead gained losing matchups to two of the most meta relevant characters in the game.

Better food for thought. Outside of a bug fix, Olimar was never changed by patches at all. Man's had the exact same kit since day one and it's taken two years for people to recognize his assets.

 

[MERPIS]

but he goes even with Bayo, Cloud, Lucas, and Roy

>Cloud
woah woah woah, when did this become a thing?

 

[Deleted member]

You are correct, attacks can stuff Shadow Sneak before Greninja attacks when he reappears. The move would work better with invincibility frames, although due to the hitstun cancel it's probably for the best that it doesn't have them. Shadow Sneak is a bad move on the ground, but it's serviceable in the air and can work well as an edgeguard once you get used to the timing.

Also just FYI, Shadow Sneak is not a kill confirm, it's a kill move. A kill confirm is a move that combos (ie "confirms") into a kill move. For example, Greninja's Dtilt is a kill confirm at close range because it combos into Usmash.

Thank you for replying to me! I just want to say you put it better than I did. It also kind of works as a recovery. The problem with Shadow Sneak is it is kind of predictable, unless you read an opponent rolling. I had no idea why I said it was a kill confirm. Also I just want to say that Corrin is where she is in the top of the high tier because her results are increasing and she has a better match up spread than Mario and Marth. Corrin is not top tier though.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

Out of curiosity, what happened to Megaman? He seemed to be on the rise some months ago and suddenly dropped again

MegaMan is a character who hasn't had much spotlight in the current metagame and because of this, many seem to think he's a lot worse than he really is. The issue with his results right now and how people perceive the character are partially because of Kameme, and partially because of a lack of opportunities to travel from all the notable MegaMan players.

Kameme's the main Mega people see at the larger tournaments so when he does something good or bad, or lacks in results, everyone's understanding of the character is viewed directly through him. Kameme's playstyle does a lot of things right but he still has an over reliance on the footstool OOS that brought him that 2nd Place at EVO so long ago for example. People are getting better at crossing him up and instead of relying on solid pellet spacing in certain situations, he runs around and shields with blade in his hand and allows people to pressure him when they shouldn't be.

He also doesn't fully utilize Mega's moveset like someone like Scatt does or any of the ever increasing tech MegaMan players elsewhere are adding into their play. I rarely see him edgeguard, use crash bomber, or use leaf-shield where Scatt gets a lot of mileage off it due to his better ledge trapping and offstage pressure. Especially vs Sonic, less pellets and no edge-guarding is hurting him. It was only until recently that Kameme finally switched up his gameplay vs KEN that he won the last 3 sets between them and hasn't lost since. He makes a lot of MUs harder for himself because of things like this.

In regards to falling off similarly to Villager, I'd say he hasn't. Bayonetta & Cloud were mentioned but a lot of notable MegaMan players actually don't think he loses to either (Scatt thinks Cloud even, Peabnut thinks Bayo/Cloud even, etc). It seems hard when you tunnel vision on his disadvantage state tho. Bayonetta he outneutrals and can outcamp. He's good at stuffing her approaches whether ground or aerial, dealing with "planking", has good ledge-traps, and optimization has been done to improve his punish game to keep up.

Cloud can hit thru pellets but the ways he has to do it makes him prone to getting anti-aired, has counterplay, and uair is super good to where Mega doesn't have to challenge the disjoint to do so. MU only gets harder when limit is in play but MegaMan's edgeguarding tools (which still have room for optimization & I don't see people pushing hard enough) are good at making Cloud burn limit on recovery or just putting him in bad situations overall along with other ways he can pressure Cloud to make it harder to charge or play around it once it's in play. Scatt said recently this is one of his favorite MUs, I think he believes Mega goes even atm.

If we look at his MU spread, having rough MUs with Sheik & Fox are definitely troublesome, but overall he doesn't really lose to that many characters due to the way he works. Especially not on the level of Villager anyways. Mega is a hard character to use optimally, but winning MUs over characters like Diddy, Sonic, Luigi, Peach, Heavies, MK, Ryu, Villager, etc will always keep him relevant. Scatt played at a local recently and looked solid. Peabnut had a great showing at Boot Camp. If both of them start traveling and Kameme with his newfound confidence in Mega figures out the holes in his play like he said he would on Twitter, I think MegaMan will be fine.