Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[valakmtnsmash4]

Pretty great showing for Kome, this is shulks first top 8 at a major ever!

 

[Baby_Sneak]

This is proooooobably off topic but I can’t help but notice that tradgedy in your avi... like, god damn lmao

How the hell does Glutonny make that character work 0_o

It’s because he doesn’t play wario;
He plays himself.

-me, December 24, 2017

lol, but it’s true though.

 

[MERPIS]

Umebura T.A.T. (284 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: KEN
2nd: Choco
3rd: Nietono
4th: Shuton
5th: Kameme
5th: Lv.1
7th: Kome
7th: Umeki
9th: Zackray
9th: HIKARU
9th: Takera
9th: Earth
13th: BT.YAMATO
13th: Ri-ma
13th: bAhuto
13th: Shky
17th: Yakara
17th: Abadango
17th: Matcha
17th: T
17th: Rattsu
17th: Eim
17th: Tarakotori
17th: Mao
25th: Rain
25th: Kirihara
25th: Kirbis
25th: Hayato.
25th: Shu
25th: Tatsutsuyo
25th: YOC
25th: Tsu-

Sonic pls, this raises a peculiar question of mine, do we consider KEN a top ten player now?

 

[JB333]

Umebura T.A.T. (284 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: KEN
2nd: Choco
3rd: Nietono
4th: Shuton
5th: Kameme
5th: Lv.1
7th: Kome
7th: Umeki
9th: Zackray
9th: HIKARU
9th: Takera
9th: Earth
13th: BT.YAMATO
13th: Ri-ma
13th: bAhuto
13th: Shky
17th: Yakara
17th: Abadango
17th: Matcha
17th: T
17th: Rattsu
17th: Eim
17th: Tarakotori
17th: Mao
25th: Rain
25th: Kirihara
25th: Kirbis
25th: Hayato.
25th: Shu
25th: Tatsutsuyo
25th: YOC
25th: Tsu-

Pretty sure Kirbis mains Falcon, and correct me if I'm wrong but I think HIKARU used Sheik as well. Also, Choco has very consistent performances in Japan. It's definitely a nice thing to see, and he's really getting some good results for ZSS.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I wonder why all the Cloud and Bayonetta mains are so low?

Because they are not far above every other character like some people like to believe.
In Japan they have dedicated mains that excel at their characters and whenever they find a tough matchup their solution is not to change characters, but to change their gameplan themselves and find better answers.
This top 8 lists 9 unique characters, and it could be 10 if Nietono had used Diddy at all, which speaks volumes of the possibilities of this game.
Then we find on twitter having 7 Bayos in a Top 8 (which some players in the list stated they didn't even use her, or used her for one or two games and lost) and some people seemed to believe the meta is actually dying based on that.

Sonic pls, this raises a peculiar question of mine, do we consider KEN a top ten player now?

Was he ever not a top 10 player?

 

[SJMistery]

As if he didn't get enough reward for FF uair as is, now he can kill at 20% from it? That's disgusting. That's like ZSS levels of ridiculousness
What is the rage level Cloud needs to be at?

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Cloud has to survive until 130-something with the limit activated against heavyweight characters at while doing only around 40% or the opponent will be able to jump out/DI down and get hit by the non-fatal early hitbox (and subsequent audience laughs ). And with his trash recovery, he probably won't be able to take so much damage from a heavy and live to tell the tale.

If you want to curb the Finishing Touch abuse, do like me: If some scrub goes for it and you know you're in the safe percents, let yourself get hit, then say to his face: "There are more efficient ways to rack up damage".

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Sonic pls, this raises a peculiar question of mine, do we consider KEN a top ten player now?

We have considered him a top 10 player for a good portion of PGR v4’s season and he is very likely to be top 10 on the PGR so I don’t see why we wouldn’t consider him a top 10 player

 

[MistressRemilia]

I'll list a bunch of interesting things that have happened at Umebura T.A.T outside of Top 32 that might be worth talking about:

- Off of the players that didn't make it out of pools, we can count Zaki, who lost in Round 1 Pools, and Onpu/DIO/Kuroitsu/Lagnel/Brood/Some all lost in Round 2 Pools. Onpu & Some had a particularly tough Round 2 Pool, with YB & Gain being in the same pool.

- Speaking of YB, this was his 2nd offline tournament, and while he did get 49th, he managed to beat Some, Gain, Rachi ( A solid Fox player ) and Taranito. I'm looking forward to see more of him in tournaments, because his movement is quite impressive.

- While i'm talking about online threats, Hero, more commonly known as //, was also at the tournament. He also got 49th, with only his win against being that noteworthy. Still looking forward to seeing more of him as well: If you've seen his match against Kirihara at another event, you definitely know that he's a good player.

- A good player of Little Mac, but he was far from being alone. If you're just looking at Top 32, you might not think Mac did a whole lot, but he really did do quite a bit of work. Here are the 6 players that were in Top 96 playing Little Mac: Hero, Takatori, Yaminabe, Gain, Gensokyo, Bt.Yamato. Here are the players they beat throughout the event: Onpu, Some, Rain, T, Rachi x2, Shiki, Eim, Gackt, Kuro, Tosshi, Kishiru & Rattsu. So yeah, Mac did noticeably well at the event.

- Among notable losses from the more commonly praised japanese players, we have: Kirihara's loss to Zackray ( He lost to Ri-Ma too in losers ) , HIKARU's loss to Zackray too ( He lost to Kome too ) , Abandango's loss to Kiosk ( A Sheik/Fox main ).

- Lv.1 is for the most part, an online player, who was often considered slightly below the likes of Hayato, Ri-Ma & Sigma. On Umebura F.A.T, after his loss to KEN in WR2 sent him all the way to LR1, he proceeded to beat: Dainosuke, Songn, Jill, Rain, Mao, Ri-Ma, Takera & Umeki until losing to Shuton in LR9.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Rito, a Bowser Jr. player, got 33th at the event, winning his pool over the likes of Zaki & i believe Dainosuke, and defeating Lea's Greninja. While i'm editing this post, i'd also vividly recommend watching bt.yamato's set against T: While i would say T didn't play the matchup well enough, it was a wonderful display of Mac's mobility allowing him to punish Link's rather commital neutral as a whole, even something as simple as picking bombs. This, along with the great awareness of the shield pressure Mac applies to his opponents coming from bt.yamato, and his well thought of retreats when expecting an OoS from T, made the set one of the peak Mac displays out there, along with the aforementioned set of Kirihara vs //.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Umebura T.A.T. (284 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: KEN
2nd: Choco
3rd: Nietono
4th: Shuton
5th: Kameme
5th: Lv.1
7th: Kome
7th: Umeki
9th: Zackray
9th: HIKARU
9th: Takera
9th: Earth
13th: BT.YAMATO
13th: Ri-ma
13th: bAhuto
13th: Shky
17th: Yakara
17th: Abadango
17th: Matcha
17th: T
17th: Rattsu
17th: Eim
17th: Tarakotori
17th: Mao
25th: Rain
25th: Kirihara
25th: Kirbis
25th: Hayato.
25th: Shu
25th: Tatsutsuyo
25th: YOC
25th: Tsu-

8 Yoshi's at this event, including DIO and even a surprise appearance of Mr. Aiba + Mrs. Aiba/Ninomiya, yet only one made it out of pools and went 0-2.
Truly sad.

 

[MERPIS]

8 Yoshi's at this event, including DIO and even a surprise appearance of Mr. Aiba + Mrs. Aiba/Ninomiya, yet only one made it out of pools and went 0-2.
Truly sad.

Extinction

 

[NuzTheMonkey]

In the time I've been hibernating from this place (and my wifi being a potato) they made a new tier list! It looks pretty good! Finally, people understand the threat that is in the current meta. As always I'm ticked off about and 's placement, but oh well what can I do? Also, why is so low? I'm actually concerned. I understand he hasn't been getting very well results but I think he should at least be C tier. I stand by my firm belief that is top 3 but I mean at least she is top 5. should be one spot above .due to his combo game and explosive comeback factor should be one spot above. These all my personal thoughts. What do you guys think?

 

[MERPIS]

Sonic should be top 5 again, Rosa should replace zss, zss shouldnt be top 10. Mewtwo should rise at least one spot JUST ONE good lord. Might as well call mewtwo the definitive tenth character now

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Speaking of top 10 players.Now that the year is nearing its end.. What does everyone think the top 10 players of the year/season are.

Definite choices in no order (my opinion)

ZeRo
MKLeo
Nairo
Salem
Dabuz
Tweek
Larry Lurr
KEN

Who though would be worthy of filling the last 2 spots. Void and/or Mr.R. or maybe even players who have been on the rise lately such as Elegant or Cosmos?

 

[Lord Dio]

Speaking of top 10 players.Now that the year is nearing its end.. What does everyone think the top 10 players of the year/season are.

Definite choices in no order (my opinion)

ZeRo
MKLeo
Nairo
Salem
Dabuz
Tweek
Larry Lurr
KEN

Who though would be worthy of filling the last 2 spots. Void and/or Mr.R. or maybe even players who have been on the rise lately such as Elegant or Cosmos?

Imo it's a toss up between VoiD, Mr R, Ally, Komo, Mistake, and Zack, they're all lumped really closely together and definitive top 15 players.

 

[Deleted member]

Sonic should be top 5 again, Rosa should replace zss, zss shouldnt be top 10. Mewtwo should rise at least one spot JUST ONE good lord. Might as well call mewtwo the definitive tenth character now

Sonic is not top five; for a top tier he has a poor KOing option ( has to over - rely on smash attacks like forward ) to kill. Then again; Sheik kind of has this problem but Bouncing Fish saves her. He is also one of those characters that can die easily if they make a mistake on their attacks; basically his attacks are punishable.

ZSS is top ten; think about Nairo and Marss. Also that grab - up air to up b is insanely powerful.

I do not anything to say about what you said about Mewtwo.

 

[MERPIS]

Imo it's a toss up between VoiD, Mr R, Ally, Komo, Mistake, and Zack, they're all lumped really closely together and definitive top 15 players.

I know I may stir up a recipe for disaster with this, but I think you're giving our dude mistake a bit too much credit

 

[Lord Dio]

I know I may stir up a recipe for disaster with this, but I think you're giving our dude mistake a bit too much credit

I probably am, I'm prolly giving a few others a lil too much credit as well tbh, but oh well.

 

[MarioManTAW]

What about Abadango and ESAM? Also, might be worth noting that the Cloudhead Live Rankings (approximate live PGR) lists the top 10 as the following:
1. ZeRo
2. Salem
3. Nairo
4. MkLeo
5. Tweek
6. Larry Lurr
7. Dabuz
8. KEN
9. VoiD
10. Abadango
The following 5 round out the top 15:
11. Mistake
12. ESAM
13. Mr. R
14. CaptainZack
15. komorikiri
Other players mentioned were close: Elegant (16th), Ally (17th), Cosmos (19th)

 

[MERPIS]

Where would Wadi be on the PGR now?
inb4 40s because pgr is tresh

 

[Lord Dio]

WaDi is definitely top 30, my guess is top 25, top 20 with a bit of luck.

 

[Pyrover]

So my one issue regarding the tier list: What's the deal with Wario?

He has a very high level solo main in the form of Gluttony, who's placed top 8 at almost everything he's attended for two years.
Source: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Glutonny

That consistent level of results usually indicates at least a high tier character. Furthermore, we're talking about a character with strong mobility, a very complete kit, arguably the best comeback factor in the game, and reliable zero to deaths that are proven to work in tournament settings.

It's a character that is absolutely difficult to play, but what more does he need to get out of low tier? Usually a character like this would be seeing a high tier placement in spite of only having one top level rep. So what's keeping Wario so low? Are we just not acknowledging results because he mostly does well in Europe? Is it because Gluttony's only trip to the states ended in 65th (at Civil War, mind, so a respectable placing nonetheless)? There is nothing to realistically hold this character back beyond a terrible Cloud matchup. So what's the deal?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So my one issue regarding the tier list: What's the deal with Wario?

He has a very high level solo main in the form of Gluttony, who's placed top 8 at almost everything he's attended for two years.
Source: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Glutonny

That consistent level of results usually indicates at least a high tier character. Furthermore, we're talking about a character with strong mobility, a very complete kit, arguably the best comeback factor in the game, and reliable zero to deaths that are proven to work in tournament settings.

It's a character that is absolutely difficult to play, but what more does he need to get out of low tier? Usually a character like this would be seeing a high tier placement in spite of only having one top level rep. So what's keeping Wario so low? Are we just not acknowledging results because he mostly does well in Europe? Is it because Gluttony's only trip to the states ended in 65th (at Civil War, mind, so a respectable placing nonetheless)? There is nothing to realistically hold this character back beyond a terrible Cloud matchup. So what's the deal?

How well Glutonny does with Wario is one of the great mysteries of this game. For the most part, Wario isn' t terrible or anything but he just isn' paticually good.

Wario basically lives and does off his Waft kill setups since he really struggles to kill any other way. He has good mobility but lacks any range and struggles with swords and disjointes in general
His up and back air have been heavily nerfed from Brawl do not really kill until high percents. Same with his b-throw as well. It does not help that all his smash attacks are really slow, laggy and punishable as well


I mean, a characters best kill option is regarded to be a move hat takes almost 2 minutes to fully charge and then starts over again after usage... what does that really say about kill potential?

But yea, it doesn' help that Cloud, and to a bit lesser extent Bayo are just..awful.

 

[Lord Dio]

There is nothing to realistically hold this character back beyond a terrible Cloud matchup. So what's the deal?

I mean he's kinda bad against blades and disjoints in general.....

arguably the best comeback factor in the game

Limit Break laughs at waft's time dependency.

 

[TDK]

So my one issue regarding the tier list: What's the deal with Wario?

He has a very high level solo main in the form of Gluttony, who's placed top 8 at almost everything he's attended for two years.
Source: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Glutonny

That consistent level of results usually indicates at least a high tier character. Furthermore, we're talking about a character with strong mobility, a very complete kit, arguably the best comeback factor in the game, and reliable zero to deaths that are proven to work in tournament settings.

It's a character that is absolutely difficult to play, but what more does he need to get out of low tier? Usually a character like this would be seeing a high tier placement in spite of only having one top level rep. So what's keeping Wario so low? Are we just not acknowledging results because he mostly does well in Europe? Is it because Gluttony's only trip to the states ended in 65th (at Civil War, mind, so a respectable placing nonetheless)? There is nothing to realistically hold this character back beyond a terrible Cloud matchup. So what's the deal?

Small update on my Wario matchup chart. This character is a struggle. pic.twitter.com/Ds4v2bcuSM

— Luis Torres (@TheReflexWonder) January 11, 2017

Wario's matchups really don't reflect a high tier character. How Gluto does so well is beyond me.

 

[Heracr055]

Yeah, Waft is something that can be inconsistent, and realistically happens once a game. Lord Dio's reference to Cloud Limit is good since he's pretty much guaranteed it once a stock, and can charge it himself.
Also, crutching on one player isn't the best way to argue a higher placement for a character (not to slight Glutonny or any amazing solo mains who carries their char's results). When you see top tiers or high tiers, you tend to see 3 or more players achieving good results.

 

[BSP]

Umebura T.A.T. (284 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: KEN
2nd: Choco
3rd: Nietono
4th: Shuton
5th: Kameme
5th: Lv.1
7th: Kome
7th: Umeki
9th: Zackray
9th: HIKARU
9th: Takera
9th: Earth
13th: BT.YAMATO
13th: Ri-ma
13th: bAhuto
13th: Shky
17th: Yakara
17th: Abadango
17th: Matcha
17th: T
17th: Rattsu
17th: Eim
17th: Tarakotori
17th: Mao
25th: Rain
25th: Kirihara
25th: Kirbis
25th: Hayato.
25th: Shu
25th: Tatsutsuyo
25th: YOC
25th: Tsu-

My buddies in Pac-Man discord say Ginko was 1 win away from top 32 with in bracket. He used in pools, but idk how much. Still, a good result for a character still believed to be a non-threat.

Props to the Macs though, they went in.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

As far as comeback factors him I say thinks like Lucario's Aura or heck.. even the janky death ladders Bayo and ZSS can do with rage rank above Wario's Waft

 

[Nah]

P Pyrover When it's only one person doing well with a character, chances are that it's just that the person is really ****ing good and not that the character is actually far better than currently thought. This is not to say that Wario cannot possibly ever be any higher on the list than he currently is, but rather that results from one person--regardless of region--is not really indicative of anything. One person alone cannot create a trend. It'd be like if one tried to argue that Robin should higher on the tier list and then quote Dath's results--but Dath is also the only (remotely active) top level Robin player. When it's more than one person (preferably more than 2 really) succeeding with a character, it starts to remove the variable of player skill from the equation and makes for a more convincing reason to elevate a character's rank.

 

[Guido65]

Small update on my Wario matchup chart. This character is a struggle. pic.twitter.com/Ds4v2bcuSM

— Luis Torres (@TheReflexWonder) January 11, 2017

Wario's matchups really don't reflect a high tier character. How Gluto does so well is beyond me.

That's his old chart. He updated it. https://twitter.com/TheReflexWonder/status/930840892096892929. He did provide explanations on some of the matchups in the replies too.

 

[Pyrover]

That's all fair, but Dath isn't really a comparable example when he had one or two good results and fell off, vs a consistent player for two year as.

I feel like Gluttony doing well is because he properly understands the character when most people don't. I don't really trust Reflex's opinions on things because he treats Wario as a camp heavy character who's totally dependent on waft setups. Gluttony's style is a much more aggressive Wario built around baits and footstool combos, treating the waft as a trump card rather than a key move.

For a decent while we all though Duck Hunt was bad, and then the Japanese players proved that over in the States everyone was playing the character incorrectly. This feels like the same deal. Most players don't understand how to play Wario. The one person who succeeds with him has a very different style than all his other players.

 

[|RK|]

Where would Wadi be on the PGR now?
inb4 40s because pgr is tresh

He's likely to be top 15 once everything is factored in.

 

[Lord Dio]

ESAM's low tier opinions are out.
it can be deduced he thinks roy and zard are mid tier.
I'm gonna have to disagree with him about zard......

 

[Krysco]

I do find the Wario discussion interesting since whenever there's a big tournament with Gluttony, everyone is all like 'Gluttony makes Wario look high tier' or whatever (hyperbole btw) and yet, does Elegant not do the same thing for Luigi? I guess we see more of Elegant and I'm not sure if Concon (I'm assuming he's the 2nd best Luigi?) gets better, more consistent results than Reflex (who I'm assuming is the 2nd best Wario)

 

[Nah]

I feel like Gluttony doing well is because he properly understands the character when most people don't. I don't really trust Reflex's opinions on things because he treats Wario as a camp heavy character who's totally dependent on waft setups. Gluttony's style is a much more aggressive Wario built around baits and footstool combos, treating the waft as a trump card rather than a key move.

For a decent while we all though Duck Hunt was bad, and then the Japanese players proved that over in the States everyone was playing the character incorrectly. This feels like the same deal. Most players don't understand how to play Wario. The one person who succeeds with him has a very different style than all his other players.

That could be the case, yeah.

But we also won't truly know if it is until other Wario players adopt Gluttony's playstyle and find similar levels of success.

 

[MERPIS]

ESAM's low tier opinions are out.
it can be deduced he thinks roy and zard are mid tier.
I'm gonna have to disagree with him about zard......

Doesn't Mr. R think zard is like top 20 or somethin?

 

[Lord Dio]

does Elegant not do the same thing for Luigi

it helps that Luigi's, y'know, an actually good character.......and has other rep in concon and Ron

Doesn't Mr. R think zard is like top 20 or somethin?

Idk, you might be thinking of ZeRo.
Either way I'm supicious of Zard being mid tier. He needs his own Gluttony/Elegant/Fatality, etc.

 

[Krysco]

it helps that Luigi's, y'know, an actually good character.......and has other rep in concon and Ron

Idk, you might be thinking of ZeRo.
Either way I'm supicious of Zard being mid tier. He needs his own Gluttony/Elegant/Fatality, etc.

Well the discussion was about how is Wario not higher up despite Gluttony being amazing with him. With Elegant, we get to see him often so we have a good idea of what Luigi can do despite the fact that he's pretty much the only Luigi pulling in the big results. If Elegant was much less active or was in an area with a smaller Smash scene, the same thing could likely apply to Luigi. Though that is why I brought up Reflex and Concon. Take away Elegant and Luigi still has the 2 reps you mentioned. Take away Gluttony and as far as I'm aware, Wario only has Reflex at that point.

I'm not disagreeing with your point mind you, that Luigi is a good character. But Wario could very well be better than perceived too. I personally doubt it though I have a negative bias towards Wario anyways but he at least has Gluttony whereas Roy for example only really has noteworthy players who have him as a pocket.

 

[The-Technique]

That's all fair, but Dath isn't really a comparable example when he had one or two good results and fell off, vs a consistent player for two year as.

I feel like Gluttony doing well is because he properly understands the character when most people don't. I don't really trust Reflex's opinions on things because he treats Wario as a camp heavy character who's totally dependent on waft setups. Gluttony's style is a much more aggressive Wario built around baits and footstool combos, treating the waft as a trump card rather than a key move.

For a decent while we all though Duck Hunt was bad, and then the Japanese players proved that over in the States everyone was playing the character incorrectly. This feels like the same deal. Most players don't understand how to play Wario. The one person who succeeds with him has a very different style than all his other players.

Yeah, a lot of people act like Wario's game plan revolves around waft when Glutonny mainly converts KOs from footstool setups into Fsmash or dair edgeguards offstage. I feel like Wario is misunderstood by most people.

 

[TDK]

ESAM's low tier opinions are out.
it can be deduced he thinks roy and zard are mid tier.
I'm gonna have to disagree with him about zard......

he put Zard in the bottom 10, actually, so bottom tier.

 

[MERPIS]

he put Zard in the bottom 10, actually, so bottom tier.

Eeeeeeh...That's a little too low, even for Zard..