Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[BSP]

This is a really good post. The fact of the matter is, many characters have potential. But some characters need to be piloted by a top tier echelon player to extract enough out of that character to compete with some of the other characters in this game.

Let’s be real, just using this as an example, if Nairo mained Zelda from the beginning of the release of smash 4 up until now, we would have a much higher opinion of Zelda overall than we do now. Now does that mean we would think Zelda is good? No, it’s obvious she is an extremely flawed character. Obviously we would know that Nairos skill is the reason for him doing well, not because Zelda is some secret high tier. But the small bits of potential she possesses would be on full display for us to watch at a high caliber level of play, and therefore we would know Zelda “is capable” of doing well. I’m kind of rambling I hope that makes sense lol

If Nairo mained Zelda exclusively and (somehow) got the same exact results that he does now, why wouldn't we put Zelda as high / top tier? In theory (what we think), Zelda's bad, but if what actually is happening contradicts that, who's wrong? The game or us?

"X makes "character" look better than he/she is" doesn't make much sense to me. How do we know what the character is "supposed " to do results wise? On paper and in practice are two different things.

Instead of saying it, I think we should say "X is the pinnacle of "characters" meta right now".

 

[Rizen]

If Nairo mained Zelda exclusively and (somehow) got the same exact results that he does now, why wouldn't we put Zelda as high / top tier? In theory (what we think), Zelda's bad, but if what actually is happening contradicts that, who's wrong? The game or us?

"X makes "character" look better than he/she is" doesn't make much sense to me. How do we know what the character is "supposed " to do results wise? On paper and in practice are two different things.

Instead of saying it, I think we should say "X is the pinnacle of "characters" meta right now".

Ah the magical world of imagination where Zelda has results. A big reason Zelda lacks results in reality is she's a weak character. There have been good players like Ven who got 40th at majors (**** I can't remember which) and that's really good for a bottom tier. Then you have mid-tiers like Link who got 3rd at civil war. Mid tiers get significantly better placements than Zelda and other bottom tiers. Yeah if Zelda suddenly placed well, and continued to do so I'd revise my theory just like I did for Duck hunt (thought they were low tier due to lack of kill options, light weight and bad recovery. It turns out little mobile characters with great zoning can do alright vs top tiers like Sheik :/ )

Zelda is a bad character. IDK why anyone thinks she could be any higher than low tier and even that's a stretch.

 

[SJMistery]

VS Mario:

Caped F-Smash can kill you as low as forty depending on if you sweet spot yourself, so besmindful of that, but unafraid. Mario should always have to guess whether you're going to smash or grab at max range. Trap landings hard since he has no way to mix you up. Don't be afraid to throw Pikmin because you can just whistle to remove anything that gets caped. When you have a purple, use short hops to mix up side B's and fair timings. Always DI away from him because of your low weight. Don't challenge his aerials unnecessarily because you won't win unless it's his fair.

Anytime he dairs with a Pikmin on you should punish that. He won't do it often if he knows the matchup though. Pretty much just use your grounded options to force jumps and stay outside his burst range. As long a second you catch his landings it's easy enough. Just be wary of his cape and grab combos. Mario doesn't have anything too threatening.

Just try not to play on ledge too much because I think Mario has a guarenteed down throw fair setup on you at 60-ish percent.

VS Bayo:

You fall out of combos easily so take full advantage of that. Attached Pikmin lag her Witch Twists and held aerials like crazy, so you can honestly punish those if you're fast. Offstage you can't afford to get caught so don't be scared to throw all your Pikmin at her and fly under the stage. Latched Pikmin will stall her twists to make chasing you harder and you're quite fast without any passengers.

Attached Pikmin CAN trigger Witch Time if you're in range of her; the range is about equal to your f-smash. You can spotdodge or roll if you read this and she'll extend your invincibility, but it's less than perfect. Air to air you can actually contest her, primarily with fair and up air.

Use up throw combos at lower percentages to maximize damage. Kill her as quickly as possible, either with purple smashes or your kill confirm. Landing nair --> F-Smash also works very well against her around 90% for a kill.

Get as many Purple Pikmin as you can. She can't do anything about their side b in neutral and using their smashes to punish her landing lag can kill her at stupid percents. Get under her and shield whenever she's about to land. If she lands with lag, punish hard with a purple. If she uses Witch Time on landing, you shielded and can still punish.

The key thing is to know that you beat her in neutral and can punish her usually safe options with a latched Pikmin. Get good at escaping from combos and you'll kill her earlier too. The only thing that keeps this out of Olimar's favor is the fact that he gets eviscerated offstage sometimes.

A couple of details you'll appreciate:
Mario's cape has a blindspot on his feet, and it's easiest to hit him there when he is falling. If you aim there (mainly with Up Smash) you can ignore the cape and kill him anyway. I love doing that with the Charged Water Shuriken when he tries to land. Arceus bless that crazy low hitbox.

Not all pikmin trigger the counters. As a Greninja, the Blue/Yellow (can't remember wich one of those two right now, sorry. Olimars aren't exactly common on 3DS Roll Glory) and White pikmin don't trigger Substitute when attached, neither do they trigger Counter Surge. Prioritize those when using Pikmin Throw.

 

[bc1910]

What exactly makes EU weaker on average than US or Japan even though some pretty amazing players hail from there?

It’s purely because there are less competitive players here. Fewer players and characters to practice against leads to a lower chance of finding breakout stars like Mr R, who can compete on the worldwide stage.

I don’t think Europe is significantly weaker than the US; some regions such as Germany are probably just as a strong as a good US region.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I agree with BSP's first sentence.

If nobody questioned Nairo or his character choice due to top player privelege or results, I think everyone would just accept it.

I also think that since players would accept it, they would, on their own, make up or start spouting Zelda misinformation as facts to the point where everyone believes it.

In this case, a top tier unstoppable Zelda.

 

[|RK|]

Everything is dependent upon where we personally are, as there aren't really objective ways to look at things.

If, somehow, someone dominated 56 tournaments as Zelda, she'd easily be top 5, with many explanations. Just like we all thought Monkey Flip was the greatest escape option since sliced bread. Nothing really changed about it. People were just like "what if I predict it?"

Now it's treated like the worst option ever to some people.

 

[MERPIS]

Everything is dependent upon where we personally are, as there aren't really objective ways to look at things.

If, somehow, someone dominated 56 tournaments as Zelda, she'd easily be top 5, with many explanations. Just like we all thought Monkey Flip was the greatest escape option since sliced bread. Nothing really changed about it. People were just like "what if I predict it?"

Now it's treated like the worst option ever to some people.

Is the mentality of the smash community this fickle and easy to change? Do people really think monkey flip is a garbage move just because people can hit diddy out of it when they didn't before?

 

[Rizen]

Everything is dependent upon where we personally are, as there aren't really objective ways to look at things.

If, somehow, someone dominated 56 tournaments as Zelda, she'd easily be top 5, with many explanations.

Not necessarily. There was a SSB64 player named Isai who could win tournaments with Link*, even vs top players. Everyone still regarded Link as low tier and rightfully so. It would take several people pulling top level results with Zelda for her to move up that much.

*notice this is on Dreamland, not Hyrule Castle.

 

[|RK|]

Not necessarily. There was a SSB64 player named Isai who could win tournaments with Link*, even vs top players. Everyone still regarded Link as low tier and rightfully so. It would take several people pulling top level results with Zelda for her to move up that much.

*notice this is on Dreamland, not Hyrule Castle.

Touché. So top 5 is probably an exaggeration. But we've seen how even secondary usage brings characters up (Nairo's Bowser), but then they drop immediately after they stop being used.

Zelda would jump quite a bit if Nairo used her against... say Kirihara or Dabuz.

 

[MERPIS]

Touché. So top 5 is probably an exaggeration. But we've seen how even secondary usage brings characters up (Nairo's Bowser), but then they drop immediately after they stop being used.

Zelda would jump quite a bit if Nairo used her against... say Kirihara or Dabuz.

I find it weird how you say Nairo’s bowser but not his ZSS

 

[|RK|]

I find it weird how you say Nairo’s bowser but not his ZSS

ZSS's position is more controversial. Bowser got a rise and drop based on Nairo's usage.

 

[MERPIS]

ZSS's position is more controversial. Bowser got a rise and drop based on Nairo's usage.

I guess so, on one end you have the "ZSS is top 10" gang, and on the other end you have the much better "ZSS isn't top 10" gang.

 

[Rizen]

"ZSS isn't top 10" gang.

Who else thinks that?

 

[Vyrnx]

I know that this is some low tier bait, but please tell me more about Nairo carrying ZSS:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Team_DRX/status/940656069168259072

 

[MERPIS]

Who else thinks that?

lots, most logical people who figured out her problems.

I know that this is some low tier bait, but please tell me more about Nairo carrying ZSS:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Team_DRX/status/940656069168259072

Only bait if you find yourself triggered by it. But he still carries her.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Marss got 2nd place at TBH7 with ZSS notabally 3-0'ing ZeRo to get there and beating Cosmos who was also on an amazing win streak at the tourney

Choco consistently places in the top 3 at Japan tourneys holding his own with Japan's other too players such as KEN, Komo and Aba.

I think Void also has a ZSS he rarely uses. Sometimes since ZSS has the explosiveness and comeback factor Sheik lacks.


So yea, it's just Nairo carrying ZSS... you deniers keep telling yourselves that

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Nairo in no way carries ZSS. Like the poster above has stated, Marss and Chico both do very well with ZSS whenever they attend an event. Literally this weekend Chico got 2nd at Umebura T.A.T. There’s also other players at a lower skill level like Luhtie, Mistake in some instances, and quik who perform well with the characters. The phrase “Nairo carries ZSS” is so absurd given that so many other players use ZSS very well and get good results

 

[Minordeth]

ZSS has flaws, yes, and a lot of her explosiveness is bolstered by a lack of knowledge of how she works, especially with rage. I’m all about calling out when players autopilot or don’t seem to know things they should.

But...

With that said, ZSS is clearly a top tier character. She’s not as broken as she is made out to be (e.g. ESAM spent an hours worth of video deconstructing her) but! she has top tier tools and mobility.

 

[MERPIS]

May be top tier, but not top ten

 

[FeelMeUp]

May be top tier, but not top ten

Both results and theory completely disprove you. If you want to make outlandish statements this badly, at least back them up with constructive thought. Otherwise you're just wasting space.

 

[Minordeth]

The obsession with whether or not a character is “top ten” in this game is really dumb.

Mostly because the cast is 56 characters.

Top 15 is more applicable and less arbitrary.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ZSS wins majors

We done here or nah?

 

[MERPIS]

She has 3 -2s
Yes we are

 

[Rizen]

She has 3 -2s
Yes we are

Which 10 or more characters would you say are better than ZSS?

 

[Minordeth]

She has 3 -2s
Yes we are

And they are?

Also, -2 is a winnable match up.

 

[MERPIS]

And they are?

Also, -2 is a winnable match up.

Netta, Diddy and Pikachu

Which 10 or more characters would you say are better than ZSS?

Netta
Cloud
Diddy
Sonic
Mario
Marth
Mewtwo
Fox
Rosa
Sheik

The only thing she really has is her ladder combos which are destroyed by rage and her mobility. She has no OOS game or short hop aerials that can hit shorter characters, she isnt safe on shield unless she only spams nair over and over, her grab is 50 shades of terrible and without it or nair she cant combo for crap. And without either she cant kill either

 

[FamilyTeam]

Netta, Diddy and Pikachu

Netta
Cloud
Diddy
Sonic
Mario
Marth
Mewtwo
Fox
Rosa
Sheik

The only thing she really has is her ladder combos which are destroyed by rage and her mobility. She has no OOS game or short hop aerials that can hit shorter characters, she isnt safe on shield unless she only spams nair over and over, her grab is 50 shades of terrible and without it or nair she cant combo for crap. And without either she cant kill either

Marth is not better than Zero Suit Samus not today, not yesterday, not tomorrow, not ever.
I am extremely curious what would even in theory put him above her.

 

[NairWizard]

Netta, Diddy and Pikachu

Pikachu's even or -1 at worst

The only thing she really has is her ladder combos

game-best mobility, top zoning game with z-air/d-smash/aerials (she's one of the few characters in the game who can completely keep out a top-level Luigi; that's saying something, when even hardcore zoning characters like Marth can fail to do it consistently).

which are destroyed by rage and her mobility.

Rage usually favors the ZSS and lets her get the jank kills that everyone knows her for. Mobility helps her chase you into the blast zone and kill you with z-air or something silly that doesn't involve a ladder combo.

She has no OOS game

f1 jab, invincible up-tilt, up-b that kills. OoS isn't top-tier but saying that she has no OoS game is a deep exaggeration

or short hop aerials that can hit shorter characters, she isnt safe on shield unless she only spams nair over and over

b-air on shorter characters

her grab is 50 shades of terrible and without it or nair she cant combo for crap.

her grab is pretty good for punishing things at midrange, misspacing by sword characters especially. She gets plenty of combos out of d-smash, ledge pressure, and just juggling with her air mobility

And without either she cant kill either

b-air, blastzone chases, d-smash at ledge/in CQC



I disagree with you entirely, but there's an argument to be made for sure for ZSS not being top 10. You could bring up her lack of rising aerials and options out of dash, which makes her vulnerable to short hops and dash to shields that enable characters to get into her zone. The arguments presented here seem dated and/or grounded in untruth, however.


But hey, if you want to talk about a top character not being top 10, why don't you try Sonic? He has no short hop game, a blah OoS game with unspectacular rewards, no good hitboxes with which to approach, no consistent kill options below 110%, and difficulty landing against characters with strong juggle games. Ken completely carries the character. Other Sonic mains like Komo have to rely on secondaries like Cloud to get anywhere, even to get past Sonic's supposedly advantageous matchups like Mario.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Usually when we talk about a character's weaknesses and especially when we try to back up bold statements we have to at least defend our views on the matter. When you just come to us and say "ZSS is [bad/not good/not as good as] because of [reason x/reason y/reason z]" you might need to back up why you say such things.

Like, the Rage comment literally makes no sense. Apparently ZSS is bad with rage even after Nairo converted a Falling Up Air at 19% with death against Void once to turn a match around. It doesn't connect.

And you really can't just come and tell us a list of characters that are better than her without saying why you believe each of those characters are better than her. This is supposed to be a thread for us to comment about metagame, not Youtube's comment section.
Like, really, why would Marth be better, when it seems most of us mains of the character don't even put him in Top 10 to begin with anymore? Or Mewtwo? Or even if we're talking about a character most of us agree is better, why is Diddy Kong better than Zero Suit Samus, for example? Could you justify?
You can't just come in and say stuff without backing up said stuff. Or else it's not stuff, it's fluff. It just comes out as a bold comment out of the blue without much thought to back it up. It doesn't do a good job of creating productive discussion.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Not buying into the ZSS isn't top ten, she blatantly proved this and keeps doing so

But I did want to point out smaller characters can infact mitigate her zoning and make her rely more on her speed and falling aerials. A crouching Ness can completely avoid her Zair from any distance and majority of her falling aerials requires really good timing to hit and Ness doesn't even have a top tier crouch. You can even duck under her dash grab if she doesn't space it right and stops right infront of you during its animation so that her arm is stretched above you.

If your character has a good crouch try it more against ZSS it actually can make a small difference in you MU potentially. It's something unexpected that could throw off an opponent once or twice but those two times could make a difference in the strength of your punish. It's also easier to powershield out of crouch due to your shield generating higher than your current position which instantly brings up standing.

Just wanted to bring that up, ZSS is definitely top ten though.

Though I am now interested in hearing about the viability of crouching, I don't see it exploited often except for characters like Kirby or Sheik, you'd be suprised what you can duck under in this game.

 

[Deleted member]

May be top tier, but not top ten

ZSS is top 10. Maybe top seven or six.

Nairo and Marss have fantastic results and as Emblem Lord says, she wins majors. Also everyone underestimates how good her tools are, paralyze is a great way to start a combo. Grab, up air to up air to up b. Works really well and can kill someone at fifty percent. If Nairo thinking she is top seven and Dabuz, ZeRo and the Smash Backroom thinking she is top six, than that says something about ZSS. ZSS also has solid match ups by the way. Results are not the real reason she is top ten, her overall play style and match ups are a huge factor.

Both results and theory completely disprove you. If you want to make outlandish statements this badly, at least back them up with constructive thought. Otherwise you're just wasting space.

ZSS wins majors

We done here or nah?

And they are?

Also, -2 is a winnable match up.

These quotes support my statement. Just because ZSS has some -2's, she can still win them and her results are very large, and she has amazing combos and great tools to win games.

ZSS is top ten. We are done here.

 

[Minordeth]

Netta, Diddy and Pikachu

Netta
Cloud
Diddy
Sonic
Mario
Marth
Mewtwo
Fox
Rosa
Sheik

The only thing she really has is her ladder combos which are destroyed by rage and her mobility. She has no OOS game or short hop aerials that can hit shorter characters, she isnt safe on shield unless she only spams nair over and over, her grab is 50 shades of terrible and without it or nair she cant combo for crap. And without either she cant kill either

Nah.

In addition to the good post by NairWizard , I’ll add a couple things:

1.) All of her aerials are pretty safe on shield. Don’t know why you think it’s just Nair.

2.) You are wrong about why rage can work against ZSS. The main reason rage hurts her is that her Dthrow kill options eventually become useless which hurts her grab game which makes grab non-threatening which leads to the opponent being able to shield for free. This is especially true if they live past the rage ladder percent AFAIK.

3.) I see why you think she isn’t top ten, and I think I see the problem:

Mario

Your “top ten” had an error from 2016.

 

[MERPIS]

Nah.

In addition to the good post by NairWizard , I’ll add a couple things:

1.) All of her aerials are pretty safe on shield. Don’t know why you think it’s just Nair.

2.) You are wrong about why rage can work against ZSS. The main reason rage hurts her is that her Dthrow kill options eventually become useless which hurts her grab game which makes grab non-threatening which leads to the opponent being able to shield for free. This is especially true if they live past the rage ladder percent AFAIK.

3.) I see why you think she isn’t top ten, and I think I see the problem:



Your “top ten” had an error from 2016.

Nope. Still not top ten

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Nope. Still not top ten

Ok, fine if that's what you believe ...well everyone is free to have their own opinion. But like everyone else is saying to you, if you do not think she is top 10, give some details or legit evidence or a reasonably detailed expaination to why you think she is not to try and convince us.
Find some results , statistics or any kid of data to prove your side of the argument like many other posters in the debate have been doing.You know, actually creating a meaningful discussion for this board

Otherwise your argument is on the level of a whiny 6-9 year old crying, Is Not, Is Not!, IS NOT!!! over and over again to an opinion.So do not be surpirsed people on here will treat your opinions with the same merit

 

[Illusion.]

Nope. Still not top ten

If you had given reasonable arguments to back up your claim, people would take you more seriously. People are literally using objective data to refute your claims and your counter-arguments, if they can even be considered to be called that, are lacking in any sort of substance; at this point, it can be considered an objective fact that ZSS is a top 10 character. Facts don’t care about your feelings.

Oh well, at the end of the day, you are entitled to your wrong opinion.

 

[Lukingordex]

I find it hard to believe ZSS has any -2 mus at all when she can at any time get a massive combo to death upon a single mistake against any character.
She definitely does better against diddy than my main who truly goes -2 in this mu, for example

 

[Shaya]

Re: Rage messing up Zero Suit

It's match up dependent, but with highish rage she loses the ability for her jabs to link (this can be really bad, just very few people are ready to smash attack her for it; of course she can not do subsequent hits of her jab too, but you can't really 'react' to her jab not working)
Also her up tilt (very annoying).
And of course her up-b is basically unusable if you have rage and things are tapping your shield beyond point blank + a non-floaty big hurtbox.

Up Smash then becomes the most consistent OoS option she has, but rage can help people fall out of this too - at the least falling out of this shouldn't result in ZSS getting hit like the aforementioned three. 10f+ short horizontal range that may not link at KO percent >_<

Rage helps forward air1 and zair at most % and most characters.
But these aren't (generally, fair is her lowest hitting rising aerial [wait, maybe up air is slightly lower] and has some merits on some chars) oos options.

 

[MH-Jin]

Re: Rage messing up Zero Suit

It's match up dependent, but with highish rage she loses the ability for her jabs to link (this can be really bad, just very few people are ready to smash attack her for it; of course she can not do subsequent hits of her jab too, but you can't really 'react' to her jab not working)
Also her up tilt (very annoying).
And of course her up-b is basically unusable if you have rage and things are tapping your shield beyond point blank + a non-floaty big hurtbox.

Up Smash then becomes the most consistent OoS option she has, but rage can help people fall out of this too - at the least falling out of this shouldn't result in ZSS getting hit like the aforementioned three. 10f+ short horizontal range that may not link at KO percent >_<

Rage helps forward air1 and zair at most % and most characters.
But these aren't (generally, fair is her lowest hitting rising aerial [wait, maybe up air is slightly lower] and has some merits on some chars) oos options.

Rage can help ZSS as well... Just depends on percents of the opponent.

For the jab comment...zss mainly needs her jab 1 to disrupt since it's frame 1 and can get out of danger with her mobilty

Nair to flip kick works on most characters 50-60%. With rage the percentage bracket moves to roughly 40-50%. This really helps when ZSS is at a high percentage deficit or get the 2nd stock when she has high rage on her first stock. Plus the rage helps to lift them above her boost kick when she's going for a rooftop kill.

 

[Shaya]

But I wasn't talking about how rage benefits her, every smasher knows how rage "benefits" her.
A jab that frequently does not link and can be unsafe on hit when buffering shield can be a big problem - the fact it's frame 1 doesn't change that - just for the most part people aren't prepared/learned enough in the match up to abuse this.
Jab1 mix ups when the option of it actually linking/comboing properly is no longer there loses a lot of it's panic response pressure.

TO BE FAIR, it's generally only apparent in the match ups she loses in / gets rage janked by her multihits due to poorly tweeked in-hit animations/hurtboxes of Cloud/Bayo.

 

[Minordeth]

Shaya - I’d imagine you know this, but I haven’t read it as confirmed, but her infamous rage combo isn’t actually a sure thing either, correct?

I’m basically figuring that people forget that in order to not die off the top when ZSS has rage that they need to not DI up, which is what they can do at earlier percents to escape the 7th hit, but rather DI in and towards her, which may not kill depending.