Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Ziodyne 21]

I still say Bayo is probally as bad an MU for Mario as Sonic is. It definetly is a disadavantage for Mario at least on the stages where she can just platform camp all match and Mario can' really do jack-all about it.

At least Luigi has a more effective projectile, grab combos that consistently to better dmg at low % honestly challenge and even gimp Bayo offstage with Cyclone

 

[Rizen]

Should he, though? Like, theory alone, they both aren't great. But we've at least seen something practical from Link; never Yoshi.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Anyway, based on the reddit accumulative MU chart Yoshi has a better spread than Link:
https://i.imgur.com/goREDRa.png
Not that I entirely agree with the chart but it's good for reference when taken with a grain of salt :/

In a sense Yoshi and Link are counterparts. Link walls and has good disjoint but lacks mobility and speed. Yoshi struggles vs disjoints because his lack of range but is mobile and quick. Link does okay vs Cloud and gets wrecked by Sheik; yoshi's the opposite. Both are undertuned in their own way yet capable of succeeding. Put together they'd make a good character named Cloud.

 

[|RK|]

I'm not sure what you're asking. Anyway, based on the reddit accumulative MU chart Yoshi has a better spread than Link:
https://i.imgur.com/goREDRa.png
Not that I entirely agree with the chart but it's good for reference when taken with a grain of salt :/

In a sense Yoshi and Link are counterparts. Link walls and has good disjoint but lacks mobility and speed. Yoshi struggles vs disjoints because his lack of range but is mobile and quick. Link does okay vs Cloud and gets wrecked by Sheik; yoshi's the opposite. Both are undertuned in their own way yet capable of succeeding. Put together they'd make a good character named Cloud.

I'm saying - should Yoshi really be put above Sheik? MU spreads are one thing - but what reality has shown us is that Link can do well at the top level. Yoshi hasn't seen the same success.

And even talking theory - doing well against Cloud is way better than doing well against Sheik. In terms of what characters you're likely to see on a bracket run, anyways.

I suppose the other side of that coin is Yoshi's much better Mario MU. But in either case, I feel like Yoshi's MU spread is still influenced by the idea of his nebulous "potential."

So I'm not sure that the MU charts are a great place to start (also have I mentioned how much I hate the cumulative MU chart).

 

[chefmatthews]

I feel like pac-man should be in a higher tier , but that's my opinion. Also you forgot dark pit.

 

[Deleted member]

I am beginning to think Mario is not top tier but then I see top players putting Mario in the top tier ( usually middle of top tier ) and these tier lists are new. What should I think?

I agree about @Emblem Lord saying Ryu should be high tier. I have said this multiple times I think but Ryu's results are not as good as all of the top tiers and having nine losing match ups is not a great thing for him. Ryu's meta game is interesting; I see a lot of Ryu players utilize some jabs into tilts to carry the opponent in a situation where they are away from the ledge and then the down air happens.

Also you forgot dark pit.

Dark Pit is there; they both just same the rank. He is just Pit. The reason why Dark Pit is not in the picture because to show it is even and plus it saves space. Keep in mind that Dark Pit and Pit are the only ones that have the same exact points and they have even been voted as the same character.

 

[Illusion.]

Also you forgot dark pit.

He is in the exact same spot as Pit since they are counted as the same character.

 

[J0eyboi]

@ShinyLegendary I think that the difference between the lower half of top-tier (anyone past Sonic) and high high-tier (Corrin and Lucina) is pretty negligible, and since low top-tier is where Mario is on this tier list, and high high-tier is where I see people arguing he should be, this discussion is a little bit pointless. But maybe that's just me.

Out of curiosity, though, which top players' lists have you been looking at? Not that I've seen anything to the contrary, more that the only tier list I've seen recently is ESAM's, and I'm curious as to what other people think.

Edit: I figured out how tags work

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

I am beginning to think Mario is not top tier but then I see top players putting Mario in the top tier ( usually middle of top tier ) and these tier lists are new. What should I think?

At this point, Mario is just fine where he is in 9th place on the tier list, which IS in the top tier. While he's not as dominant and competing for the role of "best character" like he was in 2016, he's still a competent character and is popular among top pros. While Ally isn't as dominant as he once was, he still makes top 8 on a semi-consistent basis at worst. His mediocre attack range and lacking approach options is tough to get around. KO setups aren't as reliable as other characters (but this could be worse). However, his aerial game is fantastic, he's got a good amount of combos, has a safe recovery, has many KO moves, and he also has some of the best frame data in the roster. His speed is decent enough for the most part, especially in the air.

He's well-rounded enough at the moment to stay in the top tier because his weaknesses aren't terrible enough yet to drop him down into the high tiers. He's still ranked 7th on Das Koopa's tournament results system after all, and Ally and ANTi still perform decently well in tournaments most of the time. This shows that he's at least popular enough to pose a threat in tournament. On another note, out of the "meta central" characters on the tier list, Bayo is a matchup getting worse for Mario, which poses a bit of a problem. Cloud has been tough for Mario but the matchup has at least stabilized. Diddy Kong is a matchup that Mario goes even with or possibly even wins, so he isn't that bad against the meta central characters. Could be better, but could be far worse.

It's too early to say that he doesn't deserve top tier because his drawbacks aren't severe enough yet. But, it's not impossible for him to fall to high tier. The Bayonetta matchup is getting harder for him lately, since his jump isn't that good against her on tri plat stages. Other characters could become more relevant that are below him. There could be other reasons as to why Mario may fall out of top tier in the future...but is he still a top tier at the moment? I would say yes. He could fall out of the top tiers eventually, but since he hasn't fallen off severely yet, there's no reason for him to be considered "not a top tier" at the moment. Could he fall out of top tier in the future? It's definitely possible. But is he no longer a top tier at the moment? Nah, I wouldn't go that far.

 

[MercuryPenny]

Diddy Kong is a matchup that Mario goes even with or possibly even wins

mario loses to diddy, silly

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

mario loses to diddy, silly

Care to explain why at all?
Typical consensus among top players is that the Mario vs. Diddy matchup is overall even.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/6y4nu5/comprehensive_matchup_chart_for_all_characters/
Not a perfect chart but it does have some good insight into the meta.

Add on edit: and if I had to choose between my initially pitched range of "Mario goes even vs. Mario wins", I would lean towards even since Ally's not as dominant as before.

 

[Frihetsanka]

At this point, Mario is just fine where he is in 9th place on the tier list, which IS in the top tier. While he's not as dominant and competing for the role of "best character" like he was in 2016, he's still a competent character and is popular among top pros.

Here's my take: Mario used to be top tier. DLC (especially Bayonetta, Cloud and Corrin, potentially Ryu) hurt him, as did the buffs to Marth/Lucina (some seem to think Mewtwo slightly wins vs Mario, while others put it as even). Some MUs many players seem to think he loses: Bayonetta, Cloud, Corrin, Marth/Lucina, Sonic, potentially Ryu, Mewtwo, and Rosalina & Luma. Meanwhile, he doesn't seem to win against any top tier (although he does seem to go even with Diddy Kong, Fox, Sheik, and Zero Suit Samus, with potentially a few others, and he does beat most non-top/high tiers).

He's well-rounded enough at the moment to stay in the top tier because his weaknesses aren't terrible enough yet to drop him down into the high tiers.

This shows that he's at least popular enough to pose a threat in tournament.

Oh, no doubt. High tier characters, such as Corrin, Luigi, Marth/Lucina, and Pikachu, can be really scary in this game (and in other games, Salem did well in Brawl with Zero Suit Samus, and Hungrybox and Armada do really well in Melee with Jigglypuff and Peach, respectively). I suspect many of the current Mario players are players who have played Mario for a looong time, from back when he was top tier. Mario is still a really solid character, and none of his bad MUs are worse than -1 (probably). It makes sense that he should continue to do well, at least until/if ANTi and/or Ally fully drop Mario.

There could be other reasons as to why Mario may fall out of top tier in the future...but is he still a top tier at the moment? I would say yes. He could fall out of the top tiers eventually, but since he hasn't fallen off severely yet, there's no reason for him to be considered "not a top tier" at the moment. Could he fall out of top tier in the future? It's definitely possible. But is he no longer a top tier at the moment? Nah, I wouldn't go that far.

We need to keep in mind that there currently isn't a sharp line where "top tier" should be. It doesn't have to be, say, top 10. It could very well be top 8 or top 9, in which case Mario might not make it. I don't see how Mario can be top tier if he loses several MUs against relevant characters and wins no MU against other top tiers.

So, the main alternatives I see are:

#1: Mario isn't top tier.
#2: Mario's MU chart is better than I think.
#3: Mario does lose those MUs, but is still top tier.

#3 doesn't seem very plausible to me, which leaves #1 and #2. I'm inclined to say that #1 is true, although I'm open to the possibility that #2 is correct (perhaps Mario goes even with Corrin/Marth/Lucina/Ryu/Mewtwo/Rosalina, and perhaps he wins against Diddy Kong and/or Sheik, in which case he'd probably be top tier). We have to remember that even if he's high tier, he's still a top 10/top 12/top 15 character in a game with 55 characters (58 if you count Miis). That's not bad, especially since the game is more balanced than previous official Smash games.

 

[Rizen]

1I'm saying - should Yoshi really be put above Sheik? MU spreads are one thing - but what reality has shown us is that Link can do well at the top level. Yoshi hasn't seen the same success.

2And even talking theory - doing well against Cloud is way better than doing well against Sheik. In terms of what characters you're likely to see on a bracket run, anyways.

3I suppose the other side of that coin is Yoshi's much better Mario MU. But in either case, I feel like Yoshi's MU spread is still influenced by the idea of his nebulous "potential."

So I'm not sure that the MU charts are a great place to start (also have I mentioned how much I hate the cumulative MU chart).

1Toon Link hasn't seen success like Link did in civil war either. Yoshi gets better overall results than Link.
1EE: CURRENT SCORES (UPDATED NOVEMBER 22ND, 2017)

Yoshi: 34
Bowser: 32.5
Lucario: 32.25
Lucas: 32
Olimar: 32
Ike: 31
Roy: 30.75
Mr. Game & Watch: 27
Wario: 24
Link: 20.5

Not that results are the best factor to rank characters but it's important to not get blow away by one amazing showing. And I'm not trying to downplay that 3rd place either; T proved Link can be used as a solo character. The thing with Link is he doesn't get countered by anyone. Even Sheik is possible as a solid disadvantage. Link however loses to most of the high and top tiers while not having great MUs vs anyone. Even Zelda and Ganon are merely +1s because Link doesn't have strong options and needs to make good calls.

2 I agree with that but Link still loses against Cloud. Pick your poison; which top tiers are better to only slightly lose to, lol? In terms of solo-viability Link probably does better than Yoshi. On the other hand DK has several terrible MUs but is still a better character due to counterpick value so solo isn't everything. Link loses points imo because he's void of counterpick potential. It's the curse or blessing of well rounded characters.

3 I don't play Yoshi and don't know his MUs :/ The accumulative chart takes top players' spreads into account, including the opponent's perspective so I trust it more than looking only at Yoshi players' charts.

Like I said, Yoshi and Link are counterparts, having what the other lacks.
Yoshi has MUCH better mobility and frame data. He's held back by a cripplingly bad grab game and poor reach but not as bad as Wario's. IMO Yoshi has some pretty respectable stats otherwise. Frame 3 jab and Nair (Link's are both f7), a versatile projectile for zoning although not particularly threatening, good run and walk speed, best non-limit air speed, eggs really help his recovery not be c*** this time around and the same weight as Link at 104. I really don't see why people place him lower than middle mid tier.

Link's mobility is bad and his frame data lacks. He has good reach, shield safety and 3 projectiles+Zair to help make up for it. Something people undertestimate frequently is Link's heavyweight levels of power, especially with rage. I've Naired Sheik>DA the roll and killed her at 85%, a big reason why top tier MUs are manageable. A read goes a long way. Link's landing game is great too with safe low landing lag aerials and bombs so Link loves platforms like on BF.

So why does TL consistently outplace Link in overall results? Same goes for Yoshi? A big trend in the meta is mobility matters. Bowser and mewtwo skyrocketed after mobility (and other) buffs. TL really only has mobility over Link, his slight frame data advantage is balanced by less reach. But he can legitimately camp. If you're facing losing MUs it's better to have mobility than footsies. And Yoshi is in many ways more mobile than top tiers.

 

[Deleted member]

I am pretty shocked to see ZSS above Fox and Sonic. I am not saying she should move, but an explanation would be nice.
Is it because her results being slightly better and her ladder combo still being deadly? I hear many people say she has ( three -2's ), but I think she is up there because of getting better results than Sheik and Rosalina. I guess top players would be satisfied ( including ZeRo ) because most of them put ZSS in top six. ( Except Nairo, he put her in top seven ). So what do you think on ZSS's placing?
ZSS is a top ten character.
Source: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Zero_Suit_Samus_(SSB4)

 

[Frihetsanka]

I am pretty shocked to see ZSS above Fox and Sonic.

Zero Suit Samus, Fox, and Sonic essentially got the same mean (placement), 6.46, 6,56, 6,60. For comparison, Mario is at 9.81. Rosalina is close, 5.99, then there's a gap to Sheik, 4.68. Zero Suit Samus, Fox, Sonic, and Rosalina are basically interchangable on the current 4BR tier list, I'd argue.

Oh, and she probably doesn't have any -2 MUs at all.

 

[FeelMeUp]

During the week-long period Ally spent streaming with ZeRo I asked him what he thought of the Sheik matchup and he said that Mario can't win unless the Sheik messes up badly. Been a long time since even he thought Sheik won the matchup, and ever since that stream the Sheiks have taken turns running through him.

 

[MercuryPenny]

tbh i'm not that familiar with the matchup. i'm mostly going by observation but i find it a pretty reasonable proposition to say that ally is the exception in the diddy matchup like he is with the sonic matchup. not quite as extreme, sonic is -2 whereas diddy is probably -1, but you get the idea.

biggest things with diddy are fair and his ledge trapping. fair is basically mario's back air, except diddy falls faster so it's easier to use in quick succession and you don't have to rar to use it, making it a more viable out of shield option AND better for the neutral game. i'm pretty sure it also has longer range but i'm not 100% sure.

fair can knock you offstage and force you to deal with diddy's ledge trapping, which mario has no more answers to than most of the cast does. diddy doesn't have a hard time catching up to le epin grab if he starts ledge trapping.

mario does gain a desperately needed kill confirm if he gets banana, but that's incredibly unreliable as it relies on diddy to make an error in judgement or execution, and it's entirely possible that he could just never pull out the banana at all. diddy is already pretty good at shutting mario down without it.

granted, the matchup is no worse than marth or cloud since weak nair is crazy good against a diddy recovering low and his back air is still a pretty okay spacing tool, but imo mario either goes even or loses. maybe if i get more experience with it i'll change my mind but in the meantime

although he does seem to go even with [...] Zero Suit Samus

ehh...mario is really susceptible to rage bs and it's basically the cornerstone of zss' gameplan; mario isn't short enough to give zss a hard time with anything; zss has a zair; some other things i'm forgetting right now

fox is probs the only even matchup mario has in the top tier

 

[HoSmash4]

During the week-long period Ally spent streaming with ZeRo I asked him what he thought of the Sheik matchup and he said that Mario can't win unless the Sheik messes up badly. Been a long time since even he thought Sheik won the matchup, and ever since that stream the Sheiks have taken turns running through him.

Precisely - marios combination of low range and weak burst moves (best being approaching bair/dair/nair or dash mixup) means it's very doable to wall him out hard

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Sonic may be Mario's really bad MU, well maybe Bayo on triplat stages .
The rest look around somewhat losing but doable
Fox and maybe Mewtwo are the only other top tiers he seems to go at least even with. Yeah it does not bode to well for Mario.

 

[FamilyTeam]

In case anybody's interested: ESAM finished his tier list today. I'm surprised that this time around I actually agree with a lot on him, even on a lot of very controversial opinions

• Sheik outside Top 5;
• Pikachu ahead of Marth;
• Mario not having fallen off as much as everyone believes he has.

I don't agree with some things, like Samus so high and Mario ahead of Sonic, but at least I think he makes good points to give insight as to why he thinks what he does.

Spoiler: ESAM's tier list

Dark Pit and Lucina are equal to their parent character.

Spoiler: 'Ordered'

Second picture courtesy of Reddit

I think this to me might raise the question again if any characters should separate Marth and Lucina in a tier list. It seems to me literally every top player is grouping them together nowadays and so are most people I see making tier lists. The Marth Hype burned really strong for a few months but the character has been very laid back since those hype days. Just about every character in the current Top 25 had the spotlight shined on them and they were the centre of attention for a while at some point, and even a lot of characters below that treshold (See: Robin). Maybe perhaps not here most of the time but some other parts of the community still seem to treat Marth as if he were in his long gone glory days still.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm saying - should Yoshi really be put above Sheik? MU spreads are one thing - but what reality has shown us is that Link can do well at the top level. Yoshi hasn't seen the same success.

And even talking theory - doing well against Cloud is way better than doing well against Sheik. In terms of what characters you're likely to see on a bracket run, anyways.

I suppose the other side of that coin is Yoshi's much better Mario MU. But in either case, I feel like Yoshi's MU spread is still influenced by the idea of his nebulous "potential."

So I'm not sure that the MU charts are a great place to start (also have I mentioned how much I hate the cumulative MU chart).

Cumulative my charts can be five provided you know where the data is coming from.

That at least gives a baseline for the data being given for if you trust it or not.

 

[Das Koopa]

Days 4 and 5 of LibraRank:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7mpeyd/librarank_2017_day_4_2011/ (20-11)

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7mx0f9/librarank_2017_day_5finale_101/ (Finale, 10-1)

 

[Deleted member]

In case anybody's interested: ESAM finished his tier list today. I'm surprised that this time around I actually agree with a lot on him, even on a lot of very controversial opinions

• Sheik outside Top 5;
• Pikachu ahead of Marth;
• Mario not having fallen off as much as everyone believes he has.

I don't agree with some things, like Samus so high and Mario ahead of Sonic, but at least I think he makes good points to give insight as to why he thinks what he does.

Spoiler: ESAM's tier list

Dark Pit and Lucina are equal to their parent character.

Spoiler: 'Ordered'

View attachment 134696
View attachment 134697
Second picture courtesy of Reddit

I think this to me might raise the question again if any characters should separate Marth and Lucina in a tier list. It seems to me literally every top player is grouping them together nowadays and so are most people I see making tier lists. The Marth Hype burned really strong for a few months but the character has been very laid back since those hype days. Just about every character in the current Top 25 had the spotlight shined on them and they were the centre of attention for a while at some point, and even a lot of characters below that treshold (See: Robin). Maybe perhaps not here most of the time but some other parts of the community still seem to treat Marth as if he were in his long gone glory days still.

Looks like Esam followed Dabuz's opinion on Fox.
Also does Esam think Shulk is bottom sixteen because he is hard to play and does not have results? It is pretty strange that he put Charizard at bottom ten and Pac-Man at bottom five, but I can see his opinion. At least he proves a valid opinion and explanation.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Days 4 and 5 of LibraRank:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7mpeyd/librarank_2017_day_4_2011/ (20-11)

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7mx0f9/librarank_2017_day_5finale_101/ (Finale, 10-1)

Why was JK put on hiatus?

Edit: And also, what did you mean by that comment that 2GG is stepping back? Are they not hosting tournaments anymore?

 

[Das Koopa]

Why was JK put on hiatus?

long story but

CDK and a few other Vegas/SoCal smashers accused him of trying to run him over with a van one night (albeit no charges were filed), twitter exchanges ensued, JK's bizarre and weirdly worded apology was deemed insufficient, and he was banned from Vegas weeklies until he demonstrated he was more mentally stable, and JK announced an extended hiatus/retirement until the scene would accept him back.

Edit: And also, what did you mean by that comment that 2GG is stepping back? Are they not hosting tournaments anymore?

Nothing seems to be fully announced but based on what they've said it seems like they won't host as many and will integrate the the next Championship points by affiliating themselves with non-2GG majors, making it more country-wide. That's the impression i've gotten, anyway.

 

[Shaya]

Oh, so I suppose there was a slight relevancy to the whole, 'whats top tier re: mario', and I did say I would post this diabolical world shattering thing (I probably exaggerate )
The question is whether I should say everything-ish or let some natural interpretations / responses come in first.
Two things to point out - this is mathematically more sound [to me and my current understanding of MATH; but it should be noted I suck at math] after some tweaks to the system's tier/group values since prior versions, and statistically infers the cast is 'top heavy' in terms of balance.
However, I wasn't sure if the world was ready for this (it was close to 50/50 preference in the 4BR), among another gripe I had with it
But lo and behold.

8+:
8:
7:
6:
5:
4:
3:
2:
1: (technically is Jigglypuff)

Ultimately we went with the currently seen tiers, both are 'fair'-ish representations of the data.
I might've already revealed my hand a bit, but I guess I'm asking 'what do you think of this in contrast to what we have?'

If your response is only 'Marth and Lucina in the same tier? SHIP IT', I hate you.
You might want to take a gander at the group score data if you wish to nerd it up.

P.S. fun intentions.

 

[Wintermelon43]

long story but

CDK and a few other Vegas/SoCal smashers accused him of trying to run him over with a van one night (albeit no charges were filed), twitter exchanges ensued, JK's bizarre and weirdly worded apology was deemed insufficient, and he was banned from Vegas weeklies until he demonstrated he was more mentally stable, and JK announced an extended hiatus/retirement until the scene would accept him back.



Nothing seems to be fully announced but based on what they've said it seems like they won't host as many and will integrate the the next Championship points by affiliating themselves with non-2GG majors, making it more country-wide. That's the impression i've gotten, anyway.

Oh good, I thought at first that 2GG wasn't doing any more tournaments. That's better.

As for the first thing though...... what the ****??????? If he really was trying to run them over, I'm never rooting for him ever again. That's messed up. Where is the apology?

 

[KakuCP9]

I apologize if this sounds dumb, but what is the significance of Shaya's list because it currently escapes me.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I apologize if this sounds dumb, but what is the significance of Shaya's list because it currently escapes me.

I believe this is how the tier list would shape if it was ordered by points with certain points being clear cut offs for the next tier given you have a 8+ then a 8 that would say to me top of top tier then top tier, 7 and 6 being high tier, 5 being a High/Mid tier hybrid tier, 4 being mid and 3,2,1 being low tier. That's what I took away from it

 

[Shaya]

If you were to look at the group score cut offs of both lists:
The current list is 9-8, 8-7, etc.
While the above one is 9-8.5, 8.5-7.5, 7.5-6.5, etc

I apologize if this sounds dumb, but what is the significance of Shaya's list because it currently escapes me.

This representation of the data gives basis to a divide between Mario/Ryu/etc and the Sheik/Rosa/etc for top tier.

Seems a growing trend in S4 discourse is that top ten might not be twelve characters, but rather eight :^)

-

4 being mid and 3,2,1 being low tier. That's what I took away from it

This is where it gets precarious. I think this represents the upper portions well, and 4 is undoubtedly 'mid'; 3 is tricky - Mac/Palu/Zard seem to do well with multiple players a lot more often than the rest [and would likely do pretty well at low tier events], is Falco 'mid'?
Around about this point was when it felt wiser to go with the devil we know (as it resulted in a more 'pleasing' [but not necessarily right?] lower portion of the cast).

Cast needs like 5-6 more (that aren't blatantly designed to be top tier) characters to resolve these issues!!11
Wait, Miis? Never heard of em
Would anyone be against tiering Pichu and prepatch Mewtwo for v5?

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, so I suppose there was a slight relevancy to the whole, 'whats top tier re: mario', and I did say I would post this diabolical world shattering thing (I probably exaggerate )
The question is whether I should say everything-ish or let some natural interpretations / responses come in first.
Two things to point out - this is mathematically more sound [to me and my current understanding of MATH; but it should be noted I suck at math] after some tweaks to the system's tier/group values since prior versions, and statistically infers the cast is 'top heavy' in terms of balance.
However, I wasn't sure if the world was ready for this (it was close to 50/50 preference in the 4BR), among another gripe I had with it
But lo and behold.

8+:
8:
7:
6:
5:
4:
3:
2:
1: (technically is Jigglypuff)

Ultimately we went with the currently seen tiers, both are 'fair'-ish representations of the data.
I might've already revealed my hand a bit, but I guess I'm asking 'what do you think of this in contrast to what we have?'

If your response is only 'Marth and Lucina in the same tier? SHIP IT', I hate you.
You might want to take a gander at the group score data if you wish to nerd it up.

P.S. fun intentions.

I like this! So is 8+ 9 or 8.5? How come you did not just put Jigglypuff in 1 and put her in 2? What are the points worth? Glad to see Doctor Mario not in 2 ( bottom ), it makes me happy seeing him not a bottom tier anymore. I like your post! Keep up the good work!

 

[Locke 06]

Seems a growing trend in S4 discourse is that top ten might not be twelve characters, but rather eight :^)

This has been how it has been for a while.

Arguments have been made about Rosa/zss/Sonic dropping out of this club, but mostly due to a lack of results by the people at the top or a slight lull in their metas (only for results to show, yeah, they're still good). Otherwise, if you ask someone for their top 10, these 8 characters consistently show up and then 9/10 are dependent on who they think is stronger from the tier below.

 

[Heracr055]

I think this would be a good time to discuss this year's biggest breakouts and placings at big events, that stirred up or solidified a character's placing. For a few examples:

-Tsu's placing at Frostbite which left people speculating if Lucario has been a secret top tier (which failed to make another big showing)
-Salem taking EVO and several other events, shattering the notion that Bayo "doesn't win majors" by seizing some of the biggest crowns.
-Cosmos and MKLeo's recent placings with Corrin. I know how skeptical everyone was about Corrin's previous placing on the 4BR (I know I was). Seems like she earned it now
-Dabuz's Civil War placing showing that Rosa would stay in top tier (while her results previous to that event put it in question.
-The above for ZSS as well, instead with players such as Nairo, Marss, Luhtie, Choco, etc

Feel free to add anything I may have neglected to mention

Edit: Also, Civil War showing that amazing character diversity is possible in top 8

 

[SorenT]

So, just asking as someone relatively new, but does anybody apart from Zero and me think that lucario is at the bottom end of top tier because he has

1. Some of the trickiest and dangerous wave bounce options in the game as well as good air mobility and acceleration
2. One of the best kill confirms in the game (aura sphere up smash)
3. One of the best projectiles in the game (arguably better than mewtwo's)
4. And generally great frame data

 

[|RK|]

So, just asking as someone relatively new, but does anybody apart from Zero and me think that lucario is at the bottom end of top tier because he has

1. Some of the trickiest and dangerous wave bounce options in the game as well as good air mobility and acceleration
2. One of the best kill confirms in the game (aura sphere up smash)
3. One of the best projectiles in the game (arguably better than mewtwo's)
4. And generally great frame data

I think he's top tier, but his frame data is actually one of his biggest weaknesses. And AS to usmash is a dangerous confirm, but not necessarily one of the best, as it requires you to land on your opponent.

I agree with 1 & 3, though. And to add, he has one of the best ledge traps in the game.

 

[SorenT]

I think he's top tier, but his frame data is actually one of his biggest weaknesses. And AS to usmash is a dangerous confirm, but not necessarily one of the best, as it requires you to land on your opponent.

I agree with 1 & 3, though. And to add, he has one of the best ledge traps in the game.

The biggest thing holding lucario back at the moment is probably his ground movement, which is pretty sluggish, at least compared to other top tiers.
Also, he has a bunch of other confirms too, most of them through the first hit of dair. Tsu uses dair to force palm pretty often as a OoS option.

 

[Deleted member]

While Lucario's place is debatable ( top or high tier is good for me ), I am just glad Lucario rose from the V3 Backroom Tier List to the V4 Backroom Tier List. It's aura sphere edge guard is spot on. Tsu also showed people like ZeRo how good Lucario can be. I know it does not have excellent frame data, but range with aura that was buffed from Brawl makes Lucario a powerhouse to be feared. I also took another look at ZeRo's, Nairo's, Dabuz's and ESAM's tier list and they were actually pretty interesting. All tier lists had Bayonetta as the best and Cloud as second best. I saw these tier lists they first day when came out. Lucario's placement is kind of like Ryu's, Mario's and Pikachu's: debatable.

 

[Nu~]

Aura sphere better than shadow ball? (As a projectile)

I think Shadow Ball is overall more useful at all levels of charge.
Uncharged aura spheres are kinda useless due to the end lag while Mewtwo can follow his mini shadow balls and use them for frame traps.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I recently watched some youtube videos by a Mewtwo main that said an almost charged Shadow Ball gives you less endlag on release than a max charge Shadow Ball. Thought I would share.

 

[Frihetsanka]

8+:
8:
7:
6:
5:
4:
3:
2:
1: (technically is Jigglypuff)

Ultimately we went with the currently seen tiers, both are 'fair'-ish representations of the data.
I might've already revealed my hand a bit, but I guess I'm asking 'what do you think of this in contrast to what we have?'

I actually like this "tier list" much better than the official one. This one puts emphasis on top 8 being stronger than top 9 and top 10, which I think is accurate. 8+ and 8 would be top tier, 7 and 6 would be high tier (Donkey Kong should probably drop to the top of 5), 5, 4, and 3 would be high-mid, mid, and low-mid, 3, 2, and 1 would be low tier (maybe Charizard should be 4, then?). But I think this list more accurately groups the characters. Mario and Marth are closer in power to Corrin than they are Fox or Sonic, in my opinion.

Also does Esam think Shulk is bottom sixteen because he is hard to play and does not have results? It is pretty strange that he put Charizard at bottom ten and Pac-Man at bottom five, but I can see his opinion. At least he proves a valid opinion and explanation.

ESAM sometimes has strange opinions. He used to put Mario top 2, for instance. While I would put Pac-Man and Charizard a bit higher than he did, I wouldn't put them much higher. Both characters have significant flaws keeping them down, especially Pac-Man (having the worst grab in the game hurts).

I think this would be a good time to discuss this year's biggest breakouts and placings at big events, that stirred up or solidified a character's placing. For a few examples:

-Tsu's placing at Frostbite which left people speculating if Lucario has been a secret top tier (which failed to make another big showing)
-Salem taking EVO and several other events, shattering the notion that Bayo "doesn't win majors" by seizing some of the biggest crowns.
-Cosmos and MKLeo's recent placings with Corrin. I know how skeptical everyone was about Corrin's previous placing on the 4BR (I know I was). Seems like she earned it now
-Dabuz's Civil War placing showing that Rosa would stay in top tier (while her results previous to that event put it in question.
-The above for ZSS as well, instead with players such as Nairo, Marss, Luhtie, Choco, etc

This kind of shows how some people put waaaay too much emphasis on tournament results (I sometimes do as well). I've also noticed a trend that if a character does well, then that character is automatically branded top tier/high tier, pretty much. I've seen people call Link, Samus, Donkey Kong, Bowser, etc, high tier after a few strong performances. The truth is, high-mid and even mid tier characters can do well in Smash 4. Even low-mid character could, with a strong enough player (Tweek even used to get respectable results with Bowser Jr., who might be bottom 5).

I think he's top tier, but his frame data is actually one of his biggest weaknesses.

I'm no expert on Lucario, but whenever I look at a Lucario MU chart I see a high-mid tier character at best. It's possible Lucario players are too pessimistic, but which relevant MUs does he win that makes him top tier? Do you think be beats Diddy Kong? Here is Tsu's latest MU chart: https://twitter.com/tkmtbs/status/931995376738975744

According to Tsu, Lucario loses -2 to Fox, and -1 to Wario, Zero Suit Samus, Ness, Cloud, Rosalina, Sheik, Bowser, Corrin, Mewtwo, Captain Falcon, Lucas, and Mr. Game & Watch. He goes even with some relevant characters, such as Marth/Lucina, Mario, Diddy Kong, Bayonetta, Ryu, and Sonic. While he does beat 19 (20 if you count Dark Pit) characters, only Pikachu is high tier, and none of them are top tiers. Some notable wins (+1): Donkey Kong (huh), Mega Man, Villager, Pikachu, Luigi.

That... Is not the MU chart of a top tier character. It is not the MU chart of a high tier character either, in my opinion. A skilled Lucario can win any MU (though Fox is very hard, apparently), but that doesn't make him top tier/high tier. If that were the case, then Pit should have been much higher on the tier list (though Pit probably has more -2 MUs than Lucario does).

Like Mario, we're left with three reasonable options:

#1: Lucario isn't top/high tier.
#2: Lucario's MU chart is better than Tsu thinks.
#3: Lucario does lose those MUs, but is still top/high tier.

Again, I find #3 highly questionable, which leaves #1 and #2. Is Tsu wrong? If so, then Lucario might be high tier (probably not top tier though, unless Tsu is very wrong). If not, then Lucario should drop. I think Lucario should drop and that he's a bit overrated (it should be noted that ESAM put Lucario in mid tier in his latest tier list).

 

[Lavani]

I recently watched some youtube videos by a Mewtwo main that said an almost charged Shadow Ball gives you less endlag on release than a max charge Shadow Ball. Thought I would share.

That isn't true. FAF is 49F from a raw throw or 32F from the point you press B during a charge, regardless of the actual charge level.

8+:
8:
7:
6:
5:
4:
3:
2:
1: (technically is Jigglypuff)

I like this. Separating the consistently-performing top 8 looks more pleasing than the current list stapling on a few extra characters who sometimes make waves, but don't really feel to perform on the same level; "not quite top tiers", who feel more in-line with Corrin and Lucina. On that note, the top half feels better structured in general with the adjusted cutoffs; namely I didn't feel Corrin and Lucina belonged in the same tier as the likes of Pikachu, Falcon, et al. but Olimar and DK didn't belong below them either. The only thing I'd say looks off at all is DK and Bowser moving from sharing a tier to separate ones, but the voting data certainly supports it so it's nothing more than a personal nitpick.

Use this list instead imo