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Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

|RK|

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I'm no expert on Lucario, but whenever I look at a Lucario MU chart I see a high-mid tier character at best. It's possible Lucario players are too pessimistic, but which relevant MUs does he win that makes him top tier? Do you think be beats Diddy Kong? Here is Tsu's latest MU chart: https://twitter.com/tkmtbs/status/931995376738975744

According to Tsu, Lucario loses -2 to Fox, and -1 to Wario, Zero Suit Samus, Ness, Cloud, Rosalina, Sheik, Bowser, Corrin, Mewtwo, Captain Falcon, Lucas, and Mr. Game & Watch. He goes even with some relevant characters, such as Marth/Lucina, Mario, Diddy Kong, Bayonetta, Ryu, and Sonic. While he does beat 19 (20 if you count Dark Pit) characters, only Pikachu is high tier, and none of them are top tiers. Some notable wins (+1): Donkey Kong (huh), Mega Man, Villager, Pikachu, Luigi.

That... Is not the MU chart of a top tier character. It is not the MU chart of a high tier character either, in my opinion. A skilled Lucario can win any MU (though Fox is very hard, apparently), but that doesn't make him top tier/high tier. If that were the case, then Pit should have been much higher on the tier list (though Pit probably has more -2 MUs than Lucario does).

Like Mario, we're left with three reasonable options:

#1: Lucario isn't top/high tier.
#2: Lucario's MU chart is better than Tsu thinks.
#3: Lucario does lose those MUs, but is still top/high tier.

Again, I find #3 highly questionable, which leaves #1 and #2. Is Tsu wrong? If so, then Lucario might be high tier (probably not top tier though, unless Tsu is very wrong). If not, then Lucario should drop. I think Lucario should drop and that he's a bit overrated (it should be noted that ESAM put Lucario in mid tier in his latest tier list).
I mean, even looking at the MUs he loses (and slightly, mind), how many of them are relevant? Cloud, Rosa, Sheik, ZSS, Mewtwo, Falcon.

Of those, we've seen Lucario beat most of them in tournament, multiple times (hi Sheik). Falcon and ZSS are the only two real roadblocks (and I'm not quite sure about Cloud - need to see Tsu vs Tweek going Cloud).

So if we're looking at how his MU spread holds up against the type of bracket you'd see at an S-tier, you'll see Lucario is quite capable of making top 8, and consistently. Very few mid-tiers can say that much.

Beyond that, Lucario's fundamental ability makes all of his -1s volatile. Fox is a -2 because he's in many ways immune to that volatility. He abuses Lucario's frame data, makes him wary of using his top tier projectile, can kill him when he has aura and when he doesn't rather easily, abuses his recovery, prevents him from landing, etc.

Most of his -1s are actually pretty subject to the volatility of aura. That makes them distinctly more winnable for him that most other characters' -1 MUs.

Tl;dr: Lucario's spread has only one, relatively uncommon hard counter. He goes even against most of the best/common characters in the game, and for the instances he doesn't, the volatility of aura allows him a stronger chance than a traditional -1 would show.

Personally, I wouldn't just count "losing MUs" - how bad those MUs are is more important. For example, Leo's Marth MU chart has 10 losing MUs.
 
D

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Are top tiers filling the "competitive" gap more and more as Smash 4 progresses? I am not sure; the only major results I see are from top or high tier characters ( most of the time ). What makes Falco a bottom nine character? I mean sure that down air is much worse and he is huge "combo food" as well as his blaster being weakened, but Falco can still be a threat. I mean he has a great air game and I think he has some decent results from AC and Keitaro. His down tilt to forward air is usually pretty good and maybe you can get an edge guard. If he got more results than I would oppose Falco being in bottom nine.
 

Illusion.

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Super Smash Fight Club (75 entrants: Houston, Texas)

1st. Samsora :4peach:
2nd. ERG | Lima :4bayonetta2: :4zss:
3rd. Karna :4sheik:
4th. GO! | Shadow_PR :4bayonetta2:
5th. SU | Hakii :4zss:
5th. SRC | LightTheLantern :4corrinf: :4zss:
7th. GO! | Bonren :4zelda:
7th. SU | BC :4villagerf:
 
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FeelMeUp

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Yay Bonren for making top 8 playing solo Zelda! He did amazing. Doing University of Houston proud.
Also, I don't believe BC played Cloud at all today. He played Villager to beat me and every other person I saw him go up against.

Edit: Apparently BC went Cloud but lost vs Hakii without taking any games. Bonren did indeed go solo Zelda, however.
 
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Routa

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Every time people talk about Lucario they tend to forget 2 things: He is not threatening without Aura and he has hard time dealing with camping. Camping (especially platform camping) is really hard to deal with Lucario. It is very likely that people didn't count it in when they made the MU spread. This is why I think Lucario struggles with mobile characters that can kill relatively early (this is why Wario is considered to hard counter him).
 

FeelMeUp

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Most people fail to utilize this, but pretty much every character in this game is extremely weak to some form of camping. The only ones that aren't...surprise surprise, are :4bayonetta::4cloud2:. That isn't exactly a bad quality unless it's extremely noticeable (think :4kirby:).
I'll give some examples.
:4sheik:can be weak to shield camping or platform camping
:4fox:can be weak to shield camping
:4diddy:is EXTREMELY weak to platform camping and corner camping
:4mario:is EXTREMELY weak to platform camping and shield camping(matchup dependent)
:4corrinf:can be weak to shield camping
:4metaknight:is weak to corner camping
:4littlemac:is generally weak to platform camping
:4olimar:can be weak to air camping(specifically referring to hovering in certain areas for as long as possible)
:4jigglypuff:is weak to every camping
Too many characters can ditch all attempts at playing neutral and take to the skies, corner, platform, or safety of their shield without much ability for the opponent's counterplay. This wouldn't be as much of a problem had they given more characters absurd options like Cloud Up Air or Witch Twist(or just command grabs/the option to waveland onto platforms, but w/e), but as things stand the issue is likely to only get worse.

This is also *probably* why the top 2 DLC matchups play so oppressively in certain matchups; you don't have to know them. Employ these variations of uninteractive gameplay and it often feels near impossible for the opponent to do anything
 

Minordeth

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This is a matter of degree, but I actually think Cloud is less susceptible to general camping than Bayo, if only because his mobility is so good. There are a handful of characters that can feasibly camp on Bayo, and I’m not sure I can say the same for Cloud.
 

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This is going to sound dumb, but how does Bayonetta avoid camping? I do not think Bullet Arts are that strong.

@ShinyLegendary I think my previous post about Shulk and Duck Hunt covered why Esam put Shulk so low.

I also think that his opinions are based on whether he himself, has trouble with match-ups or not.
 
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FeelMeUp

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Tilt to Up Air/Back Air kills obscenely early and the starter is mostly safe on block. All 3 of her main aerials are positive on shield drop for whatever reason and do a lot of shield damage....then combo into each other.
Witch Twist shieldpokes constantly and is almost unpunishable OoS by most of the cast without significant risk attached. Her aerials frame trap or true combo into themselves which also combos into the specials that lead to death.
The only time she has legitimate issues with camping, in my experience, is when the opponent has long-range options that largely mitigate her mixup potential. Usually on FD.
HOWEVER, this is extremely rare, as they decided to make her airspeed really ****ing high for some reason. So she can jump over and drift past most of your projectiles while potentially landing on you with a Fair, AbK or Nair that also combos and potentially leads to death.

The issue with Bayo isn't the fact that it's impossible to camp her. It's that the risk reward ratio on every interaction in which she decides to actually interact with you is heavily skewed in her favour due to the low-damage tendency of most camping options.
 

Frihetsanka

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I mean, even looking at the MUs he loses (and slightly, mind), how many of them are relevant? Cloud, Rosa, Sheik, ZSS, Mewtwo, Falcon.
And Fox (disadvantage), which is a very relevant MU. Corrin is starting to become a bit more common, at least at higher levels, Ness is used from time to time, as is Bowser (as a counter-pick, mainly).

Of those, we've seen Lucario beat most of them in tournament, multiple times (hi Sheik).
Slight disadvantage is just that, a slight disadvantage. We've seen Cosmos beat Diddy Kong, Fox, Cloud, and Sheik, despite those commonly being believed to be Corrin's worst (-1) MUs. I will give Lucario that: He's similar to Captain Falcon in that he has many -1 MUs but few/no -2 MUs, which makes him very viable. This might make him better than someone like, say, Villager, who might have fewer -1 MUs but has some rather unfortunate -2 MUs.

So if we're looking at how his MU spread holds up against the type of bracket you'd see at an S-tier, you'll see Lucario is quite capable of making top 8, and consistently. Very few mid-tiers can say that much.
I would put Lucario at or near the top of high-mid tier, although I suppose you could make a pretty strong case for Lucario being at the bottom of high tier. I still don't think he should be higher than Olimar, Luigi, Peach, or Captain Falcon (or Greninja for that matter, though in 4BR's case it seems like they placed Greninja too low, does Greninja even lose any MU -2?). I would probably place Lucario around #20-22. He's a borderline case for high tier, and I could see him being near the bottom of high tier. I don't think he has a shot at top tier though.

Speaking of top tier, some characters that have the "potential" to be top tier, according to various people: :4corrinf::4luigi::4mario::4mewtwo::4marth::4lucina::4pikachu::4olimar::4lucario::4ryu:

I personally don't think any of them are top tier in the current meta, although Mewtwo and Ryu are pretty close.

[/quote]Personally, I wouldn't just count "losing MUs" - how bad those MUs are is more important. For example, Leo's Marth MU chart has 10 losing MUs.[/QUOTE]It's not the only factor, but it's an important one. Which MUs a character wins are important as well (as are even MUs).

As for Marth, I think he should be lower on the tier list (probably top 15 still, but not as high as he is now). With that being said, I think MkLeo's MU chart is too pessimistic.

Are top tiers filling the "competitive" gap more and more as Smash 4 progresses?
Yes, quite likely. While there are breakout performances of some high tiers and high-mid/mid tiers from time to time, in general most breakout performances seem to be made by top tier players (such as Mistake's Bayonetta or Light's Fox). Furthermore, there is a tendency for low-mid/low tier players to either retire or replace their character with a top tier or a high tier. I don't see any particular reason why this trend would stop. Running into -2 MUs in a tournament setting is very, very frustrating. Even some characters that used to be high tier were hurt deeply by DLC: Imagine being a Villager or Toon Link main and running into Clouds at (nearly) every tournament. Must be pretty frustrating, right?

Still, the character diversity in Smash 4 will likely remain better than Melee's, Brawl's, and Smash 64's (and worse than Project M's). Partly because of a larger overall roster, and partly because of better balance. But if more people pick up Cloud and Bayonetta (and, to some extent, Diddy Kong and Sheik), players of lower tier characters might be more and more tempted to just pick a better character.
 
D

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It is a little sad to see Little Mac dropping in the tier list; I guess it is because of more players exploting his horrible recovery. Though he does have a great wall jump, his recovery will not save him. I think this is why he does not get enough player representation: they are too afraid of the mobile top tiers ( especially Cloud ). Hopefully Little Mac players learn how to overcome this so he does not fall into the depressing depths of low tier.
Most people fail to utilize this, but pretty much every character in this game is extremely weak to some form of camping. The only ones that aren't...surprise surprise, are :4bayonetta::4cloud2:. That isn't exactly a bad quality unless it's extremely noticeable (think :4kirby:).
I'll give some examples.
:4sheik:can be weak to shield camping or platform camping
:4fox:can be weak to shield camping
:4diddy:is EXTREMELY weak to platform camping and corner camping
:4mario:is EXTREMELY weak to platform camping and shield camping(matchup dependent)
:4corrinf:can be weak to shield camping
:4metaknight:is weak to corner camping
:4littlemac:is generally weak to platform camping
:4olimar:can be weak to air camping(specifically referring to hovering in certain areas for as long as possible)
:4jigglypuff:is weak to every camping
Too many characters can ditch all attempts at playing neutral and take to the skies, corner, platform, or safety of their shield without much ability for the opponent's counterplay. This wouldn't be as much of a problem had they given more characters absurd options like Cloud Up Air or Witch Twist(or just command grabs/the option to waveland onto platforms, but w/e), but as things stand the issue is likely to only get worse.

This is also *probably* why the top 2 DLC matchups play so oppressively in certain matchups; you don't have to know them. Employ these variations of uninteractive gameplay and it often feels near impossible for the opponent to do anything
I want to support this by adding more about camping.
I am sorry if this is inaccurate: I do not understand much about camping. Though I still researched this.
:4dedede:is EXTREMELY weak to projectile camping ( Duck Hunt, Sheik and Mega Man ).
:4falcon:is weak to platform camping and corner camping ( probably not weak to shield camping ).
:4greninja:is slightly weak to shield camping ( Though this is debatable ).
:4pacman:is weak to platform camping and shield camping.
:4sonic:is the master camper himself, but he is weak to shield camping I think.
:4bowserjr:is EXTREMELY weak to platform camping and corner camping.
:4ryu:is weak to corner camping.
:4link:is slightly weak to platform camping and corner camping.
:4ganondorf:is like Jigglypuff: he is weak to all forms of camping.
His up air racks up damage but can Ganondorf go high enough? I also think Cloud up air and Bayonetta's camping tools are annoying for Ganondorf, as he can barely do anything about it. Kind of like King Dedede, huh?

Please forgive me if I made a mistake; I wanted to give a shot at it.
 
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bc1910

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Most people fail to utilize this, but pretty much every character in this game is extremely weak to some form of camping. The only ones that aren't...surprise surprise, are :4bayonetta::4cloud2:. That isn't exactly a bad quality unless it's extremely noticeable (think :4kirby:).
I'll give some examples.
:4sheik:can be weak to shield camping or platform camping
:4fox:can be weak to shield camping
:4diddy:is EXTREMELY weak to platform camping and corner camping
:4mario:is EXTREMELY weak to platform camping and shield camping(matchup dependent)
:4corrinf:can be weak to shield camping
:4metaknight:is weak to corner camping
:4littlemac:is generally weak to platform camping
:4olimar:can be weak to air camping(specifically referring to hovering in certain areas for as long as possible)
:4jigglypuff:is weak to every camping
Too many characters can ditch all attempts at playing neutral and take to the skies, corner, platform, or safety of their shield without much ability for the opponent's counterplay. This wouldn't be as much of a problem had they given more characters absurd options like Cloud Up Air or Witch Twist(or just command grabs/the option to waveland onto platforms, but w/e), but as things stand the issue is likely to only get worse.

This is also *probably* why the top 2 DLC matchups play so oppressively in certain matchups; you don't have to know them. Employ these variations of uninteractive gameplay and it often feels near impossible for the opponent to do anything
This is part of the reason why I believe Greninja could continue to get better as the meta progresses. Like Bayo and Cloud, he isn't extremely weak to any form of camping. He has powerful aerials and good mobility to deal with platform camping, as well as Hydro Pump which can send you flying off unwanted directions. Air camping in general is a risky proposition due to Usmash; staying in Greninja's blind spot (low SH height) can work due to his slow Fair but Bair is becoming increasingly good at covering that spot, and you can't really camp that spot as it requires you to constantly land. Neither shield nor corner camping work well due to Greninja's excellent dashgrab, good throws and strong projectile (plus the shield lock -> dashgrab true combo with the fully charged shuriken). Projectile camping in general can be dealt with using Greninja's own projectiles, good mobility and long dash-to-shield if he is required to approach, not to mention Shadow Sneak and Substitute for high risk, high reward punishes.

Greninja is well-equipped to compete in a meta that favours campy play and hard punishes; he is adept at dealing with, and practising, both. I don't mean to compare his overall strength to Bayo and Cloud, but his adaptability is certainly good; it's a big part of the reason why he (arguably) doesn't have any hard counters. He has a high tier tool to deal with every form of camping. He has a high tier tool to deal with pretty much anything except shield pressure, really.
 

Rizen

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It is a little sad to see Little Mac dropping in the tier list; I guess it is because of more players exploting his horrible recovery. Though he does have a great wall jump, his recovery will not save him. I think this is why he does not get enough player representation: they are too afraid of the mobile top tiers ( especially Cloud ). Hopefully Little Mac players learn how to overcome this so he does not fall into the depressing depths of low tier.

I want to support this by adding more about camping.
I am sorry if this is inaccurate: I do not understand much about camping. Though I still researched this.
:4dedede:is EXTREMELY weak to projectile camping ( Duck Hunt, Sheik and Mega Man ).
:4falcon:is weak to platform camping and corner camping ( probably not weak to shield camping ).
:4greninja:is slightly weak to shield camping ( Though this is debatable ).
:4pacman:is weak to platform camping and shield camping.
:4sonic:is the master camper himself, but he is weak to shield camping I think.
:4bowserjr:is EXTREMELY weak to platform camping and corner camping.
:4ryu:is weak to corner camping.
:4link:is slightly weak to platform camping and corner camping.
:4ganondorf:is like Jigglypuff: he is weak to all forms of camping.
His up air racks up damage but can Ganondorf go high enough? I also think Cloud up air and Bayonetta's camping tools are annoying for Ganondorf, as he can barely do anything about it. Kind of like King Dedede, huh?

Please forgive me if I made a mistake; I wanted to give a shot at it.
For Link, he usually out-camps, and by that I mean zones with projectiles to force an approach. Even characters like Ness have to be very careful using projectiles vs Link because boomerang wind causes freefalling but tbh I've only done that once to Zelda in a game. The removal of ledgehogging killed what little gimping potential the wind had. Even so, Link has 3 projectiles that are very versitile and bombs count as a hurtbox that stops charge shots; I've planted a bomb on the ground vs Samus which stopped her charged shot and hit her an arrow. Reflectors only really hurt Link if he's charged an arrow; returning wind doesn't hurt and bombs can be caught with DA for a nice punish. Zair is also good. Magnets can be baited into non-energy projectiles like arrows and boomerang.

There are a few cases where Link gets out-camped the biggest being toon Link. DH kind of outcamps on the same level but Link can use platforms. Things like Robo beam and bullet climax cut Link down if he's not careful.

What gets Link is if an agile opponent gets the lead and plays keep away. This and ladder combos is why TnC isn't that good a stage for Link in many MUs. So he can be platform camped.

IMO corner camping doesn't really work vs Link since he can zone from midstage safely with no fear of being grabbed and Bthrowed or 2 hit Dsmashed offstage.
 

Myollnir

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Alright I'm just gonna answer a post about Bayo because there's quite a few things I need to correct..

Tilt to Up Air/Back Air kills obscenely early and the starter is mostly safe on block.

U-tilt to U-air kills Sheik at ~115%, B-air will only work at the edge at slightly lower % (after that it doesn't connect), and doesn't work against non-fastfallers. I know you play Sheik but if that's obscenely early to you, you picked the wrong game. U-Tilt is not safe on block (-8 on shield drop).

D-tilt to U-air is never true if you space your D-Tilt, which is the only safe hitbox to throw out. The angle will be too bad to follow-up.
Close range D-Tilt can be shieldgrabbed or punished easily (it's -13 on shield, -6 on shield drop), but it does lead to U-air at ~140% for the kill... Unless you DI it away, in that case you can airdodge it and you won't die.
There are frame traps and stuff, but it's not something you can rely on to close out a stock.
You need specific conditions (% and fall speed) for it to kill or 50-50 reliably.

Tl;dr : D-Tilt/U-Tilt to U-air/B-air doesn't kill early, the starters aren't safe on block and it's not even guaranteed.
(Disclaimer : Still a pretty safe thing to try due to fast FAF on B-air/U-air and extended U-air. I get most of my kills off of airdodge reads after a D-Tilt. U-Tilt is really hard to get, but it's a lot more reliable as a confirm. T&C helps a lot here.)



All 3 of her main aerials are positive on shield drop for whatever reason and do a lot of shield damage....then combo into each other.

B-air is really safe on block (-4, same as ZSS'), N-air is too, and I'm assuming you're talking about U-air then? It's safe if you land the reverse hit (a good set up to pressure shields is SH B-air U-air).
F-air1 is a LOT more laggy than it looks if you don't use F-air2. Still a decent way to pressure shields due to the threat of F-air2, but if you just F-air1, you can get punished.
This is correct. Bayonetta's combo game is amazing and has a lot of starters.


Witch Twist shieldpokes constantly and is almost unpunishable OoS by most of the cast without significant risk attached. Her aerials frame trap or true combo into themselves which also combos into the specials that lead to death.

It doesn't shieldpoke, you just drop shield. Most of the top tiers can punish it. If your character can't, catch the 19 frames of landing lag she has to suffer (that makes her aerials not safe on shield)

The only time she has legitimate issues with camping, in my experience, is when the opponent has long-range options that largely mitigate her mixup potential. Usually on FD.

That is correct (and pure logic), when your vertical mobility is so good, you'll only weak to long range options. Bayonetta will usually ban FD.

HOWEVER, this is extremely rare, as they decided to make her airspeed really ****ing high for some reason. So she can jump over and drift past most of your projectiles while potentially landing on you with a Fair, AbK or Nair that also combos and potentially leads to death.

She has the 36th best air speed in the game. That's showing your lack of experience with her.

The issue with Bayo isn't the fact that it's impossible to camp her. It's that the risk reward ratio on every interaction in which she decides to actually interact with you is heavily skewed in her favour due to the low-damage tendency of most camping options.

Yup, risk/reward is what makes her so good. This is almost the only accurate paragraph in your post, expected more from you considering I usually like your posts.
 
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Lavani

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Wouldn't that still make his statement true tho?
No. You can fully charge and still be in the charging animation for the "faster" throw. Let me rephrase:

16f startup
(optional: 0-∞f charging)
32f throw+endlag

The startup and throw are the same length whether it's a 0% charge, 50% charge, 100% charge, 99% charge, etc. I would guess the confusion from the video in question is from misinterpreting the parantheticals on KH, which only mean to show the data with the 16 startup frames removed i.e. if someone's running at you during the charge and you throw it.
 
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KakuCP9

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:4sheik:can be weak to shield camping or platform camping
I can see platform camping since on their own, none of her aerials are that scary unless you have atrocious DI and get swatted by a Bouncing fish link. But shield camp escapes me since unlike Fox, she can actually kill you off a throw or do you mean the Marthritis she suffers when the opponent is outside of confirm range?
 

Guido65

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Most people fail to utilize this, but pretty much every character in this game is extremely weak to some form of camping. The only ones that aren't...surprise surprise, are :4bayonetta::4cloud2:. That isn't exactly a bad quality unless it's extremely noticeable (think :4kirby:).
I'll give some examples.
:4sheik:can be weak to shield camping or platform camping
:4fox:can be weak to shield camping
:4diddy:is EXTREMELY weak to platform camping and corner camping
:4mario:is EXTREMELY weak to platform camping and shield camping(matchup dependent)
:4corrinf:can be weak to shield camping
:4metaknight:is weak to corner camping
:4littlemac:is generally weak to platform camping
:4olimar:can be weak to air camping(specifically referring to hovering in certain areas for as long as possible)
:4jigglypuff:is weak to every camping
Too many characters can ditch all attempts at playing neutral and take to the skies, corner, platform, or safety of their shield without much ability for the opponent's counterplay. This wouldn't be as much of a problem had they given more characters absurd options like Cloud Up Air or Witch Twist(or just command grabs/the option to waveland onto platforms, but w/e), but as things stand the issue is likely to only get worse.

This is also *probably* why the top 2 DLC matchups play so oppressively in certain matchups; you don't have to know them. Employ these variations of uninteractive gameplay and it often feels near impossible for the opponent to do anything
Hopefully this isnt a dumb question but why is mario so weak to platform camping out of curiosity?
 

ぱみゅ

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All 3 of her main aerials are positive on shield drop for whatever reason and do a lot of shield damage....then combo into each other.
Very minimal cherrypick, and I'm not even trying to refute anything at all from your post, but this makes sense from a design point of view, given this adds up with her Special Lag. If her aerials weren't naturally safeish on block, she'd eat Smashes every time she uses any Special Move.
And that would possibly hinder her ability to be in the top tier, the dev team clearly aimed to craft a top tier character with her and Cloud (and possibly Corrin).

Thinking about it, that could possibly be the case with getting rid of the Special Lag when she grabs the ledge. If she retained it it would affect her when she's just trying to recover.
:196:
 
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BSP

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:4falcon:is weak to platform camping and corner camping ( probably not weak to shield camping ).

:4pacman:is weak to platform camping and shield camping.

Please forgive me if I made a mistake; I wanted to give a shot at it.
For Falcon, idk. He has 2 aerials that do 10%+ with good reach and have low landing lag, so he should be safe from even shield drop punishes while he's wrecking your shield. He is also has a command grab. It's arguably reactable, but it's still there so you can't sit on a platform with full shield and expect to be fully safe from him.

If you put yourself in the corner vs him, you open yourself to stupid Uair confirms that will kill you at stupid low %s or Dthrow -> Nair shenanigans. I wouldn't recommend cornering yourself vs Falcon.

As for Pac-Man, the trampoline can pull you out of shield even on a platform if it's spaced correctly. If he's holding Key, he can threaten you with a projectile that can KO within an unreactable range, and if he gets on top of you he can break your shield instantly. His buffered FH Uair hits top platforms and damages the shield faster than it can regenerate, *and* he can force vertical hydrant water to force you out of shield if you remain over it.

If you roll/jump/whatever to avoid any this, you're susceptible to getting hit with the key.

If his fruit is stolen, it's much harder for him to deal with it but that's the Pac-Man's fault.

Shield camping, kinda. Shield is strong vs him yes, but you're also going to lose if you run up and block all the time vs Pac. It'll take a while, but the trampoline will kill you eventually lol.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
Most people fail to utilize this, but pretty much every character in this game is extremely weak to some form of camping. The only ones that aren't...surprise surprise, are :4bayonetta::4cloud2:. That isn't exactly a bad quality unless it's extremely noticeable (think :4kirby:).
I'll give some examples.
:4sheik:can be weak to shield camping or platform camping
:4fox:can be weak to shield camping
:4diddy:is EXTREMELY weak to platform camping and corner camping
:4mario:is EXTREMELY weak to platform camping and shield camping(matchup dependent)
:4corrinf:can be weak to shield camping
:4metaknight:is weak to corner camping
:4littlemac:is generally weak to platform camping
:4olimar:can be weak to air camping(specifically referring to hovering in certain areas for as long as possible)
:4jigglypuff:is weak to every camping
Too many characters can ditch all attempts at playing neutral and take to the skies, corner, platform, or safety of their shield without much ability for the opponent's counterplay. This wouldn't be as much of a problem had they given more characters absurd options like Cloud Up Air or Witch Twist(or just command grabs/the option to waveland onto platforms, but w/e), but as things stand the issue is likely to only get worse.

This is also *probably* why the top 2 DLC matchups play so oppressively in certain matchups; you don't have to know them. Employ these variations of uninteractive gameplay and it often feels near impossible for the opponent to do anything
All of this. Kirby - sure (I personally auto-ban tri-plats against fast characters). But any time people talk about how weak Lucario is to camping, I can't help but think of how much that's exaggerated in comparison to the rest of the cast.

I'm in the same region as Seryender - you'd be surprised at how many top tier characters I've seen Puff straight up avoid.

Beyond that, Wario isn't just a threat because he can camp. He can camp and charge Waft, which is a huge deal. Then he has to do some damage to Lucario before using it.

Even as Kirby, do you know how the best characters camp? They don't just run away - they do damage to make you feel threatened for coming close. Otherwise (unless there's a small amount of time left) you'll eventually catch them over and over for free. You can't *just* run.

In Lucario's case, that means you're either letting him pressure you for free OR you're giving him aura. Or in some cases, both. No one else in the game has the combination of a consistent, super low risk early kill tool and the ability to just camp Lucario. Cloud is possibly the closest to that description, but now unlike Wario, he's a larger target with less weaving ability - so he's going to throw out attacks when cornered.

EDIT: Regarding the Bayo post - she's actually very average speed - slower than Mario. I always assume when people talk about how fast she is, they're solely discussing her specials.
 
Last edited:

Nu~

Smash Dreamer
Joined
Jun 22, 2012
Messages
4,332
Location
U.S., Maryland (Eastern Time, UTC - 5hrs)
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EquinoXYZ
I’m not sure Meta Knight is all that weak to platform camping. Sure it’s good for weakening the threat of his ladder combo, but that’s only one facet of the character.

If you willingly put yourself in a corner against meta knight, you risk getting put offstage and having to deal with his extremely potent edgeguarding tools.
There’s also the threat of getting pivot grabbed into a back throw which sends you at a terrible angle offstage, or just straight up back thrown towards the stage which leads to a whole slew of combos at lower percents (and possibly more if Meta Knight mains began experimenting with step dash...), continuous Dtilt poking to force you to pick an option (and be able to cover them all due to the ridiculously low end lag), Fsmash pressure, hell, possibly even Dimensional Cape to ledge and landing a surprise attack from behind.

...And so on.
The character has quite a few tools that get overshadowed and underexplored because of the ladder craze.
 
Last edited:

freeziebeatz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 9, 2016
Messages
100
Hey everybody. With the new year dawning in, OrionRank is for 2017 is almost complete. We kept track of a total of 330 players this year based off of our qualification process. Here are the weighted placement averages for 2017 of all the players we looked at.

ZeRo :4diddy: 3.70
cyve :4diddy::4bayonetta: 4.19
Dabuz :rosalina: 5.32
Nairo :4zss: 5.69
Mr.R :4sheik: 5.94
M :4shulk: 6.08
Salem :4bayonetta: 6.22
KillerJawz :4mewtwo: 6.25
MKLeo :4cloud::4metaknight: 6.63
KEN :4sonic: 6.69
Glutonny :4wario: 6.70
Choco :4zss: 6.71
Ito :4metaknight: 7.33
IxisNaugis :4sonic: 7.39
Marss :4zss: 7.53
WaDi :4mewtwo: 7.61
Trela :4ryu: 7.65
9B :4bayonetta: 8.14
Big D :4mario::4falcon: 8.17
Griffith :4bayonetta::substitute: 8.20
VoiD :4sheik: 8.36
Peabnut :4megaman: 8.45
Shuton :4olimar: 8.64
Larry Lurr :4fox: 8.72
Wrath :4sonic: 8.87
Hiro :4bayonetta: 8.88
quiK :4zss:8.98
HyperKirby :4feroy: 9.16
ESAM :4pikachu: 9.20
komorikiri :4cloud: 9.26
Chag :4bayonetta: 9.28
Light :4fox: 9.44
Purple~H :4cloud: 9.82
wusi :4fox: 9.88
Fatality :4falcon: 9.91
Tweek :4cloud: 9.95
Kuma :4sonic: 10.02
Ally :4mario: 10.09
Kirihara :rosalina: 10.14
Mistake :4bayonetta: 10.18
Shoyo James :4diddy: 10.57
Angel Cortes :4diddy:10.77
Edge :4diddy: 10.78
LoNg0uw :4rob: 11.23
Zinoto :4diddy: 11.36
Abadango :4mewtwo::4bayonetta: 11.62
CaptainZack :4bayonetta: 11.76
6WX :4sonic: 11.81
Cacogen :4sheik: 11.94
Elegant :4luigi: 12.32
WormyNugget :4diddy: 12.33
Headshot :4samus: 12.53
ScAtt :4megaman: 12.65
Elexiao :4greninja: 12.80
Ranai :4villager: 12.84
Javi :4cloud::4sheik: 13.07
John Numbers :4wiifit: 13.13
Blacktwins :4cloud: 13.15
Lima :4bayonetta: 13.19
Robo~Luigi :4rob: 13.47
Samsora :4peach: 13.47
Sonix :4sonic: 13.50
Shaky :4ness: 13.63
San :4myfriends: 13.79
ANTi :4mario: 13.82
dekillsage :4fox: 13.89
Manny :4sonic: 14.03
MVD :4diddy: 14.04
Masha :4diddy: 14.08
MJG :4villagerf::4tlink: 14.08
iStudying :4greninja: 14.11
MattyG :4cloud: 14.24
Supahsemmie :4mario: 14.67
DKHo :4sheik: 14.67
LordMix :4bowser: 14.72
tyroy :4bayonetta: 14.93
S1 :4ness: 14.93
Kome :4shulk: 15.04
Dunkmaster Ragna :4ryu: 15.08
Cashmere :4falcon: 15.18
Sharpyzard :4charizard: 15.18
El_Pitikla :4fox: 15.33
Kameme :4megaman::4sheik: 15.47
dyr :4diddy: 15.54
HIKARU :4dk: 15.67
Rizeasu :4marth::substitute: 15.71
Karna :4sheik: 15.85
Meru :4peach: 15.92
J.Miller :4luigi: 15.93
SuperGirlKels :4sonic: 16.00
DarkAura :4greninja: 16.08
Zenyou :4mario: 16.22
Saiki :4sheik: 16.27
Child :4bayonetta: 16.33
Cosmos :4corrinf: 16.33
Ned :4cloud: 16.45
Nietono :4sheik: 16.45
Nova :4lucas:16.48
Koolaid :4sheik: 16.75
TheReflexWonder :4wario: 16.83
Raffi-X :4rob: 17.02
Salt One :4cloud: 17.03
DarkShad :4ryu: 17.10
Earth :4pit::4corrinf: 17.25
yeti :4tlink: 17.50
Deluxemenu :4bowser: 17.68
Myran :4olimar: 17.69
Chrim Foish :4diddy: 17.75
tsu :4lucario: 17.79
The Great Gonzales :4ness: 17.94
falln :rosalina: 18.08
Viviff T. Great :4bowser: 18.10
Ryo :4myfriends: 18.26
KOSSismoss :4gaw: 18.35
Locus :4ryu: 18.44
Mr.E :4lucina: 18.58
ikep :4bayonetta: 19.02
Deathorse :4mewtwo:19.02
WiiASE :4ryu: 19.05
Sim-Max :4rob: 19.17
Captain L :4pikachu: 19.18
Raito :4duckhunt: 19.47
Legit :4diddy: 19.47
RFang :4mario: 19.78
Vivid :4bayonetta::4lucario: 19.82
IC :4diddy: 19.83
Phenom :4ryu: 19.83
Frozen :4corrinf: 19.85
NAKAT :4fox::4ness: 19.90
Donquavious :4greninja: 20.08
RoguePenguin :4mario: 20.09
DandyPenguin :4duckhunt: 20.20
Pugwest :4marth: 20.21
Ryuga :4corrinf: 20.50
bAhuto :4mario: 20.56
Craftis :4sonic: 20.70
Eldin :rosalina: 20.88
Sonido :4sonic: 21.03
Vinnie :4sheik: 21.04
Seth :4yoshi: 21.07
Konga :4dk: 21.07
Mystearica :4bayonetta: 21.24
Gungnir :4ganondorf: 21.25
JK :4bayonetta: 21.25
k9sbruce :4sheik::4diddy: 21.27
Twi :4peach: 21.30
Venom :4ryu: 21.48
Pow :4pacman: 21.50
Biddy :4tlink: 21.68
Barakas :4yoshi: 21.80
Wraith :4bayonetta: 22.05
Seagull Joe :4sonic: 22.06
KDK :4dk: 22.29
NameLess :4diddy: 22.38
THUNDER :4ryu: 22.41
LingLing :4peach: 22.50
Apa~ :4ryu: 22.65
Rideae :4pikachu: 22.74
Sinji :4pacman: 22.75
Bedgar :4sheik: 22.89
Chaos :4bowser: 23.20
Kare~ :4falcon: 23.38
JJROCKETS :4diddy: 23.60
Captain Levi :4feroy: 23.64
Rich Brown :4mewtwo: 23.69
You3 :4duckhunt: 23.69
Ac :4metaknight::4falco: 23.96
Aperture :4sonic: 24.03
Pink Fresh :4bayonetta: 24.05
DSS :4metaknight: 24.05
Ralphie :4cloud: 24.22
Eim :4sheik: 24.42
FuTure :4ness: 24.55
Charliedaking :4fox: 24.70
Nicko :4shulk: 24.71
Regi Shikimi :4gaw: 24.98
Mew2King :4cloud: 25.17
T :4link: 25.44
Tyrant :4metaknight: 25.45
Smasher1001 :4megaman: 25.53
Chanshu :4ryu: 25.78
ZartZu :4littlemac: 25.79
Kisha :4bowser: 25.86
Eon :4fox: 25.89
Luhtie :4zss: 26.07
Dark Wizzy :4mario: 26.35
SS :4villager::4ness: 26.50
takera :4ryu: 26.60
Skorpio :4robinm: 26.61
FOW :4ness: 26.90
Xzax :4fox: 26.91
saj :4peach: 26.99
Suinoko :4diddy: 27.04
8BitMan :4rob::4diddy: 27.05
El_Bardo :4sonic: 27.19
Chavo :4bayonetta: 27.27
Blank :4sheik: 27.60
colinies :4fox: 27.72
Black Yoshi :4bayonetta: 27.93
Mute Ace :4peach: 28.32
Mekos :4lucas: 28.33
MrConCon :4luigi: 28.68
Xaltis :rosalina: 29.08
Stroder :4greninja: 29.30
Rival :4falcon: 29.60
Ross :4tlink: 29.60
DJ Fliphop :4diddy: 29.94
Shel :4luigi::4ryu: 30.00
Sells :4bayonetta: 30.09
AeroLink :4bayonetta: 30.13
BestNess :4ness: 30.69
Kogarasuma :4lucina: 30.90
Lea :4greninja: 31.18
DRAKEML :4pacman: 31.25
False :4sheik::4marth: 31.50
3xA :4tlink: 31.53
TSS :4rob::4cloud: 31.63
Rango :4cloud: 31.75
ImHip :4olimar::4duckhunt: 31.78
Oisiitofu :4greninja: 31.80
Gackt :4ness: 32.02
Rain :4cloud::4diddy: 32.32
Nom :4sheik: 32.33
ZD :4fox: 32.39
Repo :4megaman: 32.50
Gen :4ryu: 32.58
Some :4greninja: 32.92
Razo :4peach: 32.92
Lagnel :4bayonetta::4zss: 33.42
FILIP :4mario: 33.54
Remzi :4zss: 33.83
Dath :4robinf: 34.03
IceArrow :4greninja: 34.03
Crazycolorz5 :rosalina: 34.04
IcyMist :4samus: 34.09
Lui$ :4mario: 34.27
Braixen :4diddy: 34.48
Ri-ma :4tlink: 34.49
Mr.Speedman :4sonic: 34.86
Phoenix :4sonic: 35.47
Bankai :4zss: 35.55
WonderBread :4littlemac: 35.57
PiXL :4ryu: 35.88
Day :4lucario: 35.89
Scizor :4link: 35.91
Poyo :4kirby: 36.38
Umeki :4peach: 36.71
Mumei :4metaknight: 36.75
Sukekokko :4greninja: 36.95
Nyanko :4cloud: 37.48
Jtails :4diddy: 37.79
VaLor :4sonic: 37.81
Pichi :4falcon: 38.08
ewok :4cloud: 38.35
Lazybordem :4littlemac: 38.38
Fwed :4fox: 38.64
Paru :4bowser: 38.65
Seibrik :4cloud: 38.78
Player-1 :4diddy: 38.98
Jan :rosalina: 39.05
TLOrEo :4tlink: 39.30
Meteor :4sonic: 40.34
shky :4zss: 40.86
Zoan :4mewtwo: 41.17
Brood :4duckhunt: 41.25
Ninja :4mario: 41.50
Aarvark :4villager: 41.53
Nanchan :4mario::4fox: 41.56
Jill :4fox: 42.13
Akashic :4greninja: 42.28
Teb :4mario: 43.19
aMSa :4greninja: 43.50
Stealthy :rosalina: 44.08
Dom :4bayonetta: 44.44
KaPMk :4metaknight: 44.75
Waldo :4myfriends: 45.46
Yura :4corrinf: 45.46
Lv.1 :4tlink: 45.60
iTheta :4littlemac: 45.71
Tumultus :4zss: 45.85
Zan :4tlink: 45.90
Puppeh :4sheik: 45.93
JaK :4diddy: 45.96
Zephyr :4cloud: 47.08
Ke-ya :4robinf::4corrinf: 47.10
Sol :4littlemac: 47.54
stilios :4myfriends: 47.88
ven :4zelda: 48.40
bt.yamato :4littlemac: 48.42
Brosinex :4ryu: 48.54
Googs :4olimar: 48.62
Heavy :4cloud: 49.00
adom :4ganondorf: 49.06
TonySherbert :rosalina: 49.18
YOC :4corrinf: 49.34
Hackoru :4mario: 49.39
Ghost :4fox: 49.63
DKWill :4dk: 49.65
TLTC :4palutena: 49.68
Soulimar :4olimar: 50.00
Calculus :4bayonetta: 50.29
NickRiddle :4zss: 50.48
LeeT :4jigglypuff::4miibrawl: 50.64
Lycan :4diddy: 50.65
NCJacobT :4ryu::4pikachu: 51.57
PikPocket :4villager: 51.88
Tosshi :4charizard: 51.94
Diablo :4fox: 52.34
Draxsel :4falcon: 53.68
Zage :4pacman: 56.00
Felix :4fox: 56.58
Tengu :4mario: 57.81
Snoop :4yoshi: 58.02
Cyro :4falco: 58.13
Vash :4littlemac: 58.64
MF DOOM :rosalina: 58.66
Horse :4ness: 59.56
SilentDoom :4charizard: 60.12
Dainosuke :4diddy: 60.13
Ezreal :4pikachu: 63.96
KidG :4mario: 64.11
Bloodcross :4fox: 66.08
Zackray :4corrinf: 69.94
Ookami :4greninja::4megaman: 74.31
King Will :4sonic: 74.75
Z :4pikachu: 75.35
SoCalGohan :4mario: 76.63
Ki :4ryu: 78.38
Hide :4bayonetta: 81.00

Look out on the subreddit tomorrow (I think) for Das Koopa Das Koopa 's first OrionRank post. Also, it is sad I can remember every person's main on this list but not remember some friends' birthdays...
 

ShadowGuy1

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Messages
1,311
Hey everybody. With the new year dawning in, OrionRank is for 2017 is almost complete. We kept track of a total of 330 players this year based off of our qualification process. Here are the weighted placement averages for 2017 of all the players we looked at.

ZeRo :4diddy: 3.70
cyve :4diddy::4bayonetta: 4.19
Dabuz :rosalina: 5.32
Nairo :4zss: 5.69
Mr.R :4sheik: 5.94
M :4shulk: 6.08
Salem :4bayonetta: 6.22
KillerJawz :4mewtwo: 6.25
MKLeo :4cloud::4metaknight: 6.63
KEN :4sonic: 6.69
Glutonny :4wario: 6.70
Choco :4zss: 6.71
Ito :4metaknight: 7.33
IxisNaugis :4sonic: 7.39
Marss :4zss: 7.53
WaDi :4mewtwo: 7.61
Trela :4ryu: 7.65
9B :4bayonetta: 8.14
Big D :4mario::4falcon: 8.17
Griffith :4bayonetta::substitute: 8.20
VoiD :4sheik: 8.36
Peabnut :4megaman: 8.45
Shuton :4olimar: 8.64
Larry Lurr :4fox: 8.72
Wrath :4sonic: 8.87
Hiro :4bayonetta: 8.88
quiK :4zss:8.98
HyperKirby :4feroy: 9.16
ESAM :4pikachu: 9.20
komorikiri :4cloud: 9.26
Chag :4bayonetta: 9.28
Light :4fox: 9.44
Purple~H :4cloud: 9.82
wusi :4fox: 9.88
Fatality :4falcon: 9.91
Tweek :4cloud: 9.95
Kuma :4sonic: 10.02
Ally :4mario: 10.09
Kirihara :rosalina: 10.14
Mistake :4bayonetta: 10.18
Shoyo James :4diddy: 10.57
Angel Cortes :4diddy:10.77
Edge :4diddy: 10.78
LoNg0uw :4rob: 11.23
Zinoto :4diddy: 11.36
Abadango :4mewtwo::4bayonetta: 11.62
CaptainZack :4bayonetta: 11.76
6WX :4sonic: 11.81
Cacogen :4sheik: 11.94
Elegant :4luigi: 12.32
WormyNugget :4diddy: 12.33
Headshot :4samus: 12.53
ScAtt :4megaman: 12.65
Elexiao :4greninja: 12.80
Ranai :4villager: 12.84
Javi :4cloud::4sheik: 13.07
John Numbers :4wiifit: 13.13
Blacktwins :4cloud: 13.15
Lima :4bayonetta: 13.19
Robo~Luigi :4rob: 13.47
Samsora :4peach: 13.47
Sonix :4sonic: 13.50
Shaky :4ness: 13.63
San :4myfriends: 13.79
ANTi :4mario: 13.82
dekillsage :4fox: 13.89
Manny :4sonic: 14.03
MVD :4diddy: 14.04
Masha :4diddy: 14.08
MJG :4villagerf::4tlink: 14.08
iStudying :4greninja: 14.11
MattyG :4cloud: 14.24
Supahsemmie :4mario: 14.67
DKHo :4sheik: 14.67
LordMix :4bowser: 14.72
tyroy :4bayonetta: 14.93
S1 :4ness: 14.93
Kome :4shulk: 15.04
Dunkmaster Ragna :4ryu: 15.08
Cashmere :4falcon: 15.18
Sharpyzard :4charizard: 15.18
El_Pitikla :4fox: 15.33
Kameme :4megaman::4sheik: 15.47
dyr :4diddy: 15.54
HIKARU :4dk: 15.67
Rizeasu :4marth::substitute: 15.71
Karna :4sheik: 15.85
Meru :4peach: 15.92
J.Miller :4luigi: 15.93
SuperGirlKels :4sonic: 16.00
DarkAura :4greninja: 16.08
Zenyou :4mario: 16.22
Saiki :4sheik: 16.27
Child :4bayonetta: 16.33
Cosmos :4corrinf: 16.33
Ned :4cloud: 16.45
Nietono :4sheik: 16.45
Nova :4lucas:16.48
Koolaid :4sheik: 16.75
TheReflexWonder :4wario: 16.83
Raffi-X :4rob: 17.02
Salt One :4cloud: 17.03
DarkShad :4ryu: 17.10
Earth :4pit::4corrinf: 17.25
yeti :4tlink: 17.50
Deluxemenu :4bowser: 17.68
Myran :4olimar: 17.69
Chrim Foish :4diddy: 17.75
tsu :4lucario: 17.79
The Great Gonzales :4ness: 17.94
falln :rosalina: 18.08
Viviff T. Great :4bowser: 18.10
Ryo :4myfriends: 18.26
KOSSismoss :4gaw: 18.35
Locus :4ryu: 18.44
Mr.E :4lucina: 18.58
ikep :4bayonetta: 19.02
Deathorse :4mewtwo:19.02
WiiASE :4ryu: 19.05
Sim-Max :4rob: 19.17
Captain L :4pikachu: 19.18
Raito :4duckhunt: 19.47
Legit :4diddy: 19.47
RFang :4mario: 19.78
Vivid :4bayonetta::4lucario: 19.82
IC :4diddy: 19.83
Phenom :4ryu: 19.83
Frozen :4corrinf: 19.85
NAKAT :4fox::4ness: 19.90
Donquavious :4greninja: 20.08
RoguePenguin :4mario: 20.09
DandyPenguin :4duckhunt: 20.20
Pugwest :4marth: 20.21
Ryuga :4corrinf: 20.50
bAhuto :4mario: 20.56
Craftis :4sonic: 20.70
Eldin :rosalina: 20.88
Sonido :4sonic: 21.03
Vinnie :4sheik: 21.04
Seth :4yoshi: 21.07
Konga :4dk: 21.07
Mystearica :4bayonetta: 21.24
Gungnir :4ganondorf: 21.25
JK :4bayonetta: 21.25
k9sbruce :4sheik::4diddy: 21.27
Twi :4peach: 21.30
Venom :4ryu: 21.48
Pow :4pacman: 21.50
Biddy :4tlink: 21.68
Barakas :4yoshi: 21.80
Wraith :4bayonetta: 22.05
Seagull Joe :4sonic: 22.06
KDK :4dk: 22.29
NameLess :4diddy: 22.38
THUNDER :4ryu: 22.41
LingLing :4peach: 22.50
Apa~ :4ryu: 22.65
Rideae :4pikachu: 22.74
Sinji :4pacman: 22.75
Bedgar :4sheik: 22.89
Chaos :4bowser: 23.20
Kare~ :4falcon: 23.38
JJROCKETS :4diddy: 23.60
Captain Levi :4feroy: 23.64
Rich Brown :4mewtwo: 23.69
You3 :4duckhunt: 23.69
Ac :4metaknight::4falco: 23.96
Aperture :4sonic: 24.03
Pink Fresh :4bayonetta: 24.05
DSS :4metaknight: 24.05
Ralphie :4cloud: 24.22
Eim :4sheik: 24.42
FuTure :4ness: 24.55
Charliedaking :4fox: 24.70
Nicko :4shulk: 24.71
Regi Shikimi :4gaw: 24.98
Mew2King :4cloud: 25.17
T :4link: 25.44
Tyrant :4metaknight: 25.45
Smasher1001 :4megaman: 25.53
Chanshu :4ryu: 25.78
ZartZu :4littlemac: 25.79
Kisha :4bowser: 25.86
Eon :4fox: 25.89
Luhtie :4zss: 26.07
Dark Wizzy :4mario: 26.35
SS :4villager::4ness: 26.50
takera :4ryu: 26.60
Skorpio :4robinm: 26.61
FOW :4ness: 26.90
Xzax :4fox: 26.91
saj :4peach: 26.99
Suinoko :4diddy: 27.04
8BitMan :4rob::4diddy: 27.05
El_Bardo :4sonic: 27.19
Chavo :4bayonetta: 27.27
Blank :4sheik: 27.60
colinies :4fox: 27.72
Black Yoshi :4bayonetta: 27.93
Mute Ace :4peach: 28.32
Mekos :4lucas: 28.33
MrConCon :4luigi: 28.68
Xaltis :rosalina: 29.08
Stroder :4greninja: 29.30
Rival :4falcon: 29.60
Ross :4tlink: 29.60
DJ Fliphop :4diddy: 29.94
Shel :4luigi::4ryu: 30.00
Sells :4bayonetta: 30.09
AeroLink :4bayonetta: 30.13
BestNess :4ness: 30.69
Kogarasuma :4lucina: 30.90
Lea :4greninja: 31.18
DRAKEML :4pacman: 31.25
False :4sheik::4marth: 31.50
3xA :4tlink: 31.53
TSS :4rob::4cloud: 31.63
Rango :4cloud: 31.75
ImHip :4olimar::4duckhunt: 31.78
Oisiitofu :4greninja: 31.80
Gackt :4ness: 32.02
Rain :4cloud::4diddy: 32.32
Nom :4sheik: 32.33
ZD :4fox: 32.39
Repo :4megaman: 32.50
Gen :4ryu: 32.58
Some :4greninja: 32.92
Razo :4peach: 32.92
Lagnel :4bayonetta::4zss: 33.42
FILIP :4mario: 33.54
Remzi :4zss: 33.83
Dath :4robinf: 34.03
IceArrow :4greninja: 34.03
Crazycolorz5 :rosalina: 34.04
IcyMist :4samus: 34.09
Lui$ :4mario: 34.27
Braixen :4diddy: 34.48
Ri-ma :4tlink: 34.49
Mr.Speedman :4sonic: 34.86
Phoenix :4sonic: 35.47
Bankai :4zss: 35.55
WonderBread :4littlemac: 35.57
PiXL :4ryu: 35.88
Day :4lucario: 35.89
Scizor :4link: 35.91
Poyo :4kirby: 36.38
Umeki :4peach: 36.71
Mumei :4metaknight: 36.75
Sukekokko :4greninja: 36.95
Nyanko :4cloud: 37.48
Jtails :4diddy: 37.79
VaLor :4sonic: 37.81
Pichi :4falcon: 38.08
ewok :4cloud: 38.35
Lazybordem :4littlemac: 38.38
Fwed :4fox: 38.64
Paru :4bowser: 38.65
Seibrik :4cloud: 38.78
Player-1 :4diddy: 38.98
Jan :rosalina: 39.05
TLOrEo :4tlink: 39.30
Meteor :4sonic: 40.34
shky :4zss: 40.86
Zoan :4mewtwo: 41.17
Brood :4duckhunt: 41.25
Ninja :4mario: 41.50
Aarvark :4villager: 41.53
Nanchan :4mario::4fox: 41.56
Jill :4fox: 42.13
Akashic :4greninja: 42.28
Teb :4mario: 43.19
aMSa :4greninja: 43.50
Stealthy :rosalina: 44.08
Dom :4bayonetta: 44.44
KaPMk :4metaknight: 44.75
Waldo :4myfriends: 45.46
Yura :4corrinf: 45.46
Lv.1 :4tlink: 45.60
iTheta :4littlemac: 45.71
Tumultus :4zss: 45.85
Zan :4tlink: 45.90
Puppeh :4sheik: 45.93
JaK :4diddy: 45.96
Zephyr :4cloud: 47.08
Ke-ya :4robinf::4corrinf: 47.10
Sol :4littlemac: 47.54
stilios :4myfriends: 47.88
ven :4zelda: 48.40
bt.yamato :4littlemac: 48.42
Brosinex :4ryu: 48.54
Googs :4olimar: 48.62
Heavy :4cloud: 49.00
adom :4ganondorf: 49.06
TonySherbert :rosalina: 49.18
YOC :4corrinf: 49.34
Hackoru :4mario: 49.39
Ghost :4fox: 49.63
DKWill :4dk: 49.65
TLTC :4palutena: 49.68
Soulimar :4olimar: 50.00
Calculus :4bayonetta: 50.29
NickRiddle :4zss: 50.48
LeeT :4jigglypuff::4miibrawl: 50.64
Lycan :4diddy: 50.65
NCJacobT :4ryu::4pikachu: 51.57
PikPocket :4villager: 51.88
Tosshi :4charizard: 51.94
Diablo :4fox: 52.34
Draxsel :4falcon: 53.68
Zage :4pacman: 56.00
Felix :4fox: 56.58
Tengu :4mario: 57.81
Snoop :4yoshi: 58.02
Cyro :4falco: 58.13
Vash :4littlemac: 58.64
MF DOOM :rosalina: 58.66
Horse :4ness: 59.56
SilentDoom :4charizard: 60.12
Dainosuke :4diddy: 60.13
Ezreal :4pikachu: 63.96
KidG :4mario: 64.11
Bloodcross :4fox: 66.08
Zackray :4corrinf: 69.94
Ookami :4greninja::4megaman: 74.31
King Will :4sonic: 74.75
Z :4pikachu: 75.35
SoCalGohan :4mario: 76.63
Ki :4ryu: 78.38
Hide :4bayonetta: 81.00

Look out on the subreddit tomorrow (I think) for Das Koopa Das Koopa 's first OrionRank post. Also, it is sad I can remember every person's main on this list but not remember some friends' birthdays...
One thing that is very intriguing are the European players, Hiro, Peabnut, and Hyper Kirby in the below 10 range. I’m curious how that happened. Is it the other not at big tournaments in those regions?
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
Hopefully this isnt a dumb question but why is mario so weak to platform camping out of curiosity?
From what I understand it's Mario's lack of aerials that can deal with it. His Fair isn't a conventional Fair, Up air is relatively weak on its own, and Dair doesn't help. His Bair is good but only helps with horizontal space not the needed vertical space he needs to be able to threaten to discourage platform camping same with Nair but it lingers which can catch landing opponents and push them off the plat.I don't think he is as hopeless as he seems sometimes, just jumping up and holding shield on a plat can get a reaction from the opponent, Elegant does this with Luigi of all characters against plat campers and Luigi doesn't benefit from air speed like Mario does. But in general if you can't threaten vertical space safely you can struggle with plat camping.
 

Onua

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Messages
415
Location
Liberty, Missouri
If we're talking about camping game I think the Pits are incredibly underrated in this regard. Their ability to run away is silly and something they should in general do more. Multiple jumps plus good recovery plus speed helps em out a lot.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I have been using :4greninja: more; and I have to say his mobility is that of a top tier.
Down tilt to grab or up smash is an amazing start to rack up percents. He also has a really good match up spread ( arguably better than Meta Knight's and Ryu's. ). Even if the voting happened before Greninja's explosive results; he is still a little bit too low.

Also I want to talk about :4drmario:. Nobody really likes to talk about this Mario, because everyone says "lol bad Mario". I am just glad he is rising in the tier list - he was never bottom five in my opinion. he has a good kill move and his back air has low end lag ( I think ). The thing about Doctor Mario is his match ups are terrible, and he does not have great mobility like Mario. Is there even any notable Doctor Mario mains pulling off good results with him? I think B7Games is very important for Doctor Mario right now.
 
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Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
If we're talking about camping game I think the Pits are incredibly underrated in this regard. Their ability to run away is silly and something they should in general do more. Multiple jumps plus good recovery plus speed helps em out a lot.
Too bad nothing about them is scary.
 

valakmtnsmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
708
NNID
yathshiv
New year new predictions.

What do you all thinks gonna happen this year in smash 4? Here's to another great year of this wild game.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
New year new predictions.

What do you all thinks gonna happen this year in smash 4? Here's to another great year of this wild game.
The community could either whine about Bayonetta and Cloud again, or...
The community is going to focus and try to improve of how low - mid tiers can improve on the more difficult and prominent high and top tier characters. Overall; it looks like a good year. Especially with all of the new stuff and results being learned.
Too bad nothing about them is scary.
I agree with this. Sure the Pits have a good recovery; but they are very underwhelming in my opinion. Even more underwhelming than some low tiers. I am not saying they should move to low tier though. And besides Earth, what other people do they have? I can foresee the Pits moving down in the next tier list.
 

Hat N' Clogs

John Tavares is a Leaf
Joined
Feb 9, 2012
Messages
7,858
Location
Southern tier NY state
3DS FC
1650-2469-6836
Switch FC
SW-3519-9567-9870
New year new predictions.

What do you all thinks gonna happen this year in smash 4? Here's to another great year of this wild game.
In this year? Concerning top tiers, I'm predicting that Fox starts competing for top 3. While the Bayo matchup is a tough one, players like Larry Lurr have made the MU seem a little easier over time. He also does ok against Cloud, and with having winnable matchups against the top 2...that's vital, since they're meta-central. I've also seen a few top players say that Fox could certainly be top 5. ESAM placed him in solid 3rd. I know that pros aren't always perfect and still can be wrong sometimes, but even still...the Fox respect is something to consider. I know that Charliedaking and Light have been up and coming recently, so that's two new Fox mains placing well at tournaments rather than Larry alone (with VoiD occasionally pulling out Fox).
 

freeziebeatz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 9, 2016
Messages
100
One thing that is very intriguing are the European players, Hiro, Peabnut, and Hyper Kirby in the below 10 range. I’m curious how that happened. Is it the other not at big tournaments in those regions?
Hiro, Peabnut, and Hyper didnt enter enough majors for it to ruin their score. European players just didnt have enough big majors or didnt go to the US.
 

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
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Jun 13, 2014
Messages
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Texas
NNID
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3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
Hiro, Peabnut, and Hyper didnt enter enough majors for it to ruin their score. European players just didnt have enough big majors or didnt go to the US.
Basically this, yeah. It doesn't skew things terribly hard since the point gaps are so big compared to the outliers these guys present, but it's something I have a solution to for the next iteration based on my LibraRank work (which was exclusively placement data based.)
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,974
Location
Fascist ****Hole Of America
Happy new year everyone.
In this year? Concerning top tiers, I'm predicting that Fox starts competing for top 3. While the Bayo matchup is a tough one, players like Larry Lurr have made the MU seem a little easier over time. He also does ok against Cloud, and with having winnable matchups against the top 2...that's vital, since they're meta-central. I've also seen a few top players say that Fox could certainly be top 5. ESAM placed him in solid 3rd. I know that pros aren't always perfect and still can be wrong sometimes, but even still...the Fox respect is something to consider. I know that Charliedaking and Light have been up and coming recently, so that's two new Fox mains placing well at tournaments rather than Larry alone (with VoiD occasionally pulling out Fox).
I have Fox at 5th best after Diddy/Bayo/Cloud and Sheik. He probably has the best burst game in the game. The fact Fox can punish bat within so effectively shows how formidable and quick he is. Fox's vortex is crazy, good setups with things like Dair, he has a good kill game, good stray hits like Usmash and Bair. Laser can be used to stop corner camping, and should be used more imo. The only areas he is lacking in are reach and disadvantage but those aren't big weaknesses. Fox has a good MU vs Marth iirc so he's quick enough to get around disjoints and his disadvantage isn't horrible with shine stalls, fast falling and sideB as a recovery option. No more N64 Fox who's a sitting duck offstage.
 
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InfinitySoul

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
101
If we're talking about camping game I think the Pits are incredibly underrated in this regard. Their ability to run away is silly and something they should in general do more. Multiple jumps plus good recovery plus speed helps em out a lot.
Do you have any examples about that ?
 
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