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As much as I’d like to continue this kirby and doc convo... (kirby being pretty underrated again unfortunately T_T)
I’d actually like to go back a bit. I remember some posters saying that Ness has bad mobility. I’m not sure why I keep seeing this.
Watching S1 play, I’m not sure how anyone can come to that conclusion. When you combine his high air acceleration, the strong gliding ability ness’ strange second jump adds, dair to halt his upwards momentum and land quickly with no lag, extended dash dancing back and forth, and ness’ excellent dash grab + attack as burst options... where does the weakness in mobility factor in?
Sure he has low run speed and air lower air speed, but his ability to weave and dance around is incredible. His neutral honestly doesn’t seem that bad when he can simultaneously make himself so hard to hit (that airdodge is just adds insult to injury) and approach from so many angles in the air with his giant aerials.
Edit: I didn’t even factor in down B. Goddamn this boy can move.
I agree that order within tiers is counterproductive, but on the subject of DK and Bowser, I seem to recall Hikaru (who plays both) saying that he thinks Bowser is slightly stronger. Obviously he prefers DK regardless, and DK seems to be the more popular and effective pick. However, it seems to me that they both serve more or less the same function; as player-based counterpicks or for muscling through unstable matchups with their unga bunga power.
Maybe this is silly, but I'd argue for them occupying the same spot, or at the very least they ought to be in the same tier. Now, that may give more weight to theory than results, so feel free to disagree. But honestly, they're the same character. One just happens to be more popular at top level right now.
I want more results from Bowser first before I can agree to that. Bowser's meta is still in works, and it shows tremendously. See: Nairo vs. ZeRo at DreamHack Atlanta 2017.
That being said, Bowser's two trump cards are his Whirling Fortress out of shield and his grab kill confirm, which is said to be more accurate than DK's, despite lower kill percents. He also gets two more landing options, which include Dair and Bowser Bomb at the ledge.
DK has more range, disjointed arms, and earlier kills. Right now, Tweek's work has shown how strong the character is against even top tiers, like Sheik. All-in-all, I'm more than willing to be one of the Bowser users (secondaries) to see how far the character's meta can go. But right now, for this tier list at least, I feel it only fitting that Bowser is a tier lower than DK, or at the very least, on the opposite end of the spectrum.
Bowser has more grab range, and also has disjointed arms. On more moves than DK actually, considering Bowser has arm intangibility on jab and DK doesn't.
For Kirby vs. Doc, one potentially fruitful way to compare them is to ask, "If I was a master of both and had to take one of the two into battle versus [top tier character], who would I choose?" I don't know either character well, but I definitely not pick one over the other across the board.
For example, Kirby's compact size and offstage play would probably be a better fit vs. Cloud, but I think Doc's sheer power off of stray hits is a better thing to have vs. Mewtwo.
There's a lot of top tiers in this game, so it's not like they can all be discussed at once, but feel free to bring up whichever top tier you think Kirby/Doc do better at than the other.
As much as I’d like to continue this kirby and doc convo... (kirby being pretty underrated again unfortunately T_T)
I’d actually like to go back a bit. I remember some posters saying that Ness has bad mobility. I’m not sure why I keep seeing this.
Watching S1 play, I’m not sure how anyone can come to that conclusion. When you combine his high air acceleration, the strong gliding ability ness’ strange second jump adds, dair to halt his upwards momentum and land quickly with no lag, extended dash dancing back and forth, and ness’ excellent dash grab + attack as burst options... where does the weakness in mobility factor in?
Sure he has low run speed and air lower air speed, but his ability to weave and dance around is incredible. His neutral honestly doesn’t seem that bad when he can simultaneously make himself so hard to hit (that airdodge is just adds insult to injury) and approach from so many angles in the air with his giant aerials.
Even with all of that Ness can still struggle to get in but you aren't lying S1 and Gackt make Ness look aloooot more mobile than he should be and the reason you'll see people still believe he has no mobility is because people simply don't research enough and still look towards FOW when they think Ness who didn't use these things, they also just aren't used by alot of Ness players in general because the character can get by without using his movement options so Ness players don't bother to learn to incorporate it in their play. However I do feel that S1 and Gackt's movement is the future for Ness and it should be adapted by all Ness players to make him a much more threatening character in neutral and to play around disjoints better.
Below are two two gifs demonstrating how fast you can make him look just grounded and a S1 set he demonstrates fantastic movement allowing him to run over Sonic of all characters, for those unfamiliar
No, I hear what you're saying. But it all sounds like defending Doc as a character - and he does have very good tools. The issue is that nothing he has really puts him over Kirby. I'll take care to respond point-by-point here.
For the first paragraph: Doc's autocancel is great, for sure. But Kirby's is meant to have a couple different uses. First, when thrown out from a SH, it's a faster option than Doc's. Even moreso when you consider how air acceleration improves SH game. It becomes a burst option you can indeed throw out. Second, you want to land with the move more often than not, as despite the landing lag, it's meant to pancake under moves, increasing safety and the ability to avoid moves. Doc's bair is still stronger, mind. But it's not so much stronger that their bairs are incomparable. And on that note, Kirby also has a really good sh airdodge and fh airdodge. But the issue I think we're ignoring is that you shouldn't rely on aerial approaches so frequently anyways, especially with poor airspeed and acceleration. You see, that's why Doc's momentum shifting also doesn't matter so much. When he reverses his momentum, he can't do much afterwards. Kirby can punish a commitment from above right afterwards.
Second paragraph: Advantage state includes combos, but isn't just about combos. Without even getting into frame tight combos, Kirby can do 30% easily, and upwards of 70% depending on the opponent. But again, not just about combos.
Kirby is also stronger at ledge, due to his jab acting like a slightly worse version of Falcon's. It's not too hard to react to a number of ledge options just from holding it.
Kirby is also stronger offstage, due to the ability to chase opponents incredibly deep without significant threat to himself. He can place his aerials pretty much anywhere as a result, as opposed to a particular spot.
Finally, Kirby is also stronger when an opponent is landing. Due to (again), the better ground game and speed, he is able to more effectively chase the landings of his opponents. His turnaround speed is actually among the quickest in the game, allowing him to shift directions pretty easily, and his utilt annd usmash are effective anti-air options. The latter move is slower, but has incredible vertical range.
As for killing, Doc mainly performs better due to his kill confirm and usmash. I acknowledge both tools are solid (especially usmash), but the angle of usmash often keeps it from being as solid as the other Mario brothers. Furthermore, his kill confirm isn't as effective with enough rage. On the other hand, Kirby has more situations in which he can secure a kill, due to having more neutral tools on the ground, better edgeguarding and a vertical kill throw. I see Doc like Zelda in this regard - yes, there is a powerful kill confirm. But it's typically not going to be as effective due to opponents being able to outstrip him in neutral. That said, I will give him a solid edge in kill power.
Taken together, these attributes make Kirby stronger in every state of advantage. Comparatively, Doc may perform better if he's chasing an opponent in the air, due to slightly better airspeed and quick uairs. He will also perform better if he's able to get the grab he needs for his confirm.
Finally, disadvantage. Regardless of the airspeed of many of his opponents, Kirby is able to escape pressure and return to ledge more easily than most characters. Getting to land back on stage is no easy task, but few characters enjoy the privilege of being able to jump away from Rosalina's uairs instead of jumping out of them. Or jumping out of Fox's vortexes. So on. Airspeed only matters so much here, as ultimately, most characters have just one extra jump. After that's exhausted, they need to land before putting on more pressure. This inhibits their ability to chase Kirby down fully.
A similar point is applicable offstage. As Kirby can pull back offstage, he is able to force the opponent to exhaust their ability to chase. With this window of opportunity, Kirby is able to make it back to stage. He can also simply choose to recover high (or low if really needed). His up b isn't good at all - I'll be the first to call it trash. But if that's your main thought when it comes to Kirby's recovery, it's not the right direction.
So with these responses, I believe that should explain everything. You have agreed that Kirby has a better ground game, however slight. Disadvantage is clearly in Kirby's favor, with little room for comparison, I think. Advantage is also solidly proven. The only areas I believe you could reasonably argue for are the following:
- Whether Kirby's superior ground game is enough to say he has a superior neutral
- Whether Doc's kill power alone makes his advantage better than Kirby's
I believe that's a "yes" and "no" respectively. Again, all of this is before getting into MU specific copy abilities, which can objectively put his neutral, advantage, and disadvantage leagues ahead of Doc's depending on the MU.
EDIT: And before I forget, I want to reiterate that Kirby has better top-level results than Doc as well (despite both being admittedly tragic). So this covers both theory and reality.
You've made some fair points, but i'd like to come back on a few points before we finish the conversation ( I think the people are starting to get overwhelmed with it anyway, but feel free to PM me if you want to keep the discussion going ):
I'd question the strength of Kirby on the ledge over Doc because, while his jab, as you've said, covers efficiently the ledge akin to the likes of Falcon, Doc posesses once again, some more lethal options in his arsenal when it comes to this matter: Doc Tornado is a move that covers both regular & getup option with solid knockback. His Upsmash can also do a similar job when spaced correctly, along with potentially covering some direct jump getups. For the jump getup, if you're reading it, you can go for Fair or Bair depending on how flexible you wanna be, and your confidence on said read. Finally, for the option of dropping out of the ledge, Doc may simply react to what's being done: If the opponent throws out an attack, it's usually going to be easily punishable by Doc's UpB/UpSmash OoS. If not, you can react and throw out a Jab 1/2 and react to their option out of it, or anything else really. So yeah, i'm not disagreeing, they may be on an even playing field out there, but excel in different areas. Once again though, Doc remains the more lethal of the two. Even at Mid%, getting blown away by a Doc Tornado may put you in a situation that can be somewhat tough to come back from, assuming your disadvantage state isn't one of the best in the game.
On to what you've mentioned about Kill confirms, I think you're underselling the lethality of Doc's Out of Shield options: While not applicable against every single character, a healthy amount of the cast will have to result to poking Doc's Shield ( In an attempt to poke & kill Doc in these numerous situations where you're looking to get the kill ). And as i've mentioned before, Doc has some of the quickest Out of Shield options in the game, on top of even being able to cover crossups really well with the 2 main lethal options, being UpB & UpSmash. This gives Doc a certain bit of freedom in neutral during those situations, as he can play the neutral as he usually does with his relatively lagless options, and punish his opponents for any tiny mispacing mistake.
So yeah, to kind of end on the same note as you, I'd say that Doc's wide array of mixups & fair consistency in some of his flexible aerials, along with some under-appreciated jumping specs, give him a slight edge in the Neutral Game against a fair amount of the cast. And i do also believe the lethality i've been mentioning throughout my paragraphs also renders Doc's Advantage better than Kirby's against an healthy amount of the cast.
As for matchups, since Nobie
asked... It's pretty awkward honestly. Doc & Kirby nearly have the same bad matchups when it comes to Top Tiers: Sonic & Rosalina. I do not have enough experience with Sonic to talk about who's better at it, but when it comes to Rosalina, i can say Doc has his Tornado that renders the matchup more tolerable: It blows the f*ck out of Luma, and is pretty good at intercepting Rosalina's recovery ( If she's positioned to aim for the ledge: If not, You'd have to bait her into not going there, but that's another story ). It's a bit less insufferable than we first thought, but it's not good either. Both Kirby & Doc have Fox as their best Top tier matchup. Kirby has, I believe, Sheik, ZSS & Ryu that are noticeably better. I would however say that Doc has a fair shot against Diddy, Mewtwo & Mario. It all boils down to either Doc outdamaging his foes while not being severely beaten in the neutral ( No rough ways of being lamed out, Trades are positive, Doc can make more out of the openings granted by these characters ). Mewtwo is more about the anti-zoning prowess Doc can achieve, and with good spacing, penalize Mewtwo for even trying to get his starters, on top of lethality being at its highest with such a light character. I think Rich Brown had expressed being afraid of Doc.
Small Edit to answer |RK|
: Another fair point, I did mention options that did not cover all the options out there, and i didn't have the pretention to write them off as equivalents to the unholy Nair of Sheik at the ledge. However, they do cover enough options to be serviceable, on top of the aforementioned lethality. And about matchups, Mario vs Doc is very much of an even matchup: Mario's raw mobility & ability to chase Doc in Advantage stack up to Doc's rougher damage output, higher kill potential & stronger edgeguarding on the other ( Doc's Dair will spike Mario's UpB on Trade with it, producing an effect akin to Luigi's Tornado Spike )
For Kirby vs. Doc, one potentially fruitful way to compare them is to ask, "If I was a master of both and had to take one of the two into battle versus [top tier character], who would I choose?" I don't know either character well, but I definitely not pick one over the other across the board.
For example, Kirby's compact size and offstage play would probably be a better fit vs. Cloud, but I think Doc's sheer power off of stray hits is a better thing to have vs. Mewtwo.
There's a lot of top tiers in this game, so it's not like they can all be discussed at once, but feel free to bring up whichever top tier you think Kirby/Doc do better at than the other.
I would honestly pick Kirby in every MU with the possible exceptions of Mewtwo, Rosa, and Diddy. And even in the Rosa MU, they share the problem of getting walled/juggled/edgeguarded/avoided. But Doc is heavier, and can punish certain options harder, like Rosa dash attack.
---
Kirby:
Bayo - Bullet Climax from one grab. Means that she ultimately can't camp Kirby as well as she can Doc and Mario. Ban triplats.
Cloud - Already stated. But any character that wants to be in the air a lot doesn't like Cloud at all.
Sheik - This one is already well-established.
ZSS - Camps both characters super hard, but hates fighting Kirby up close more.
Fox - Also well-established. Can actually kill off of one grab if you catch Fox in the right position.
Sonic - It's a tie, they both lose
Mario - I feel like they both slightly lose, but fine for both? Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, results show this as a solid MU for Kirby.
Marth - KIDGoggles already convinced Pugwest this MU isn't that bad a while back. Better speed means easier whiff punishes. Crouches under some common neutral tools for Marth, including grab & jab. Also, again - a good ground game means better ability to face disjoint characters, as you can abuse shield more. That and disjoint characters are typically more fearsome in the air.
Ryu - I think this MU is even, as does Komota. Only examples of this MU at a high-level (in bracket) we have are SGK vs Venom & Poyo vs THUNDER. Both had Kirby coming out victorious.
---
Diddy is one I grapple with, because I don't think it's awful. Komota agrees, and he has plenty of Zinoto experience. But there's really no good examples of this MU being played out at a top level (outside of locals). Also, I'm kind of assuming Doc has similar advantages over Diddy as Mario. But ZeRo does have both in the same place vs Diddy, so *shrug*.
And finally, Mewtwo... kill power is certainly useful, but more importantly is super sheet IMO. Being able to effectively remove Shadow Ball's ubiquity in the MU is amazing, because then you don't have to rush in as much. So Mewtwo's neutral is diminished against Doc in a way Kirby doesn't really replicate.
EDIT: I don't really have a long response MistressRemilia
- it basically seems like you favor lethal coverage over broad coverage. Which is fine, of course. I'm familiar with Doc's immense kill power; I just don't necessarily think it overrides consistency - unless you have both. Which is why Sheik is still considered to have one of the best advantage states in the game, despite noticeably lacking in kill power.
And you're right about the jumping specs - Kirby's low jumps will always make platform camping a bigger issue for him.
There are a few minor things I disagree with, but I really like this tier list overall. Kind of sad to see Mega Man (my very first main) being put in C and Sheik being no longer in S, but how about Rosalina and ZSS making moves. After watching Dabuz and Nairo play this year and picking up ZSS myself, there is a lot of potential in them. If Dabuz, Nairo, and other Rosalina and ZSS mains keep on placing high in tournaments, I won't be surprised if either character will making a return to S Tier in the future.
As much as I’d like to continue this kirby and doc convo... (kirby being pretty underrated again unfortunately T_T)
I’d actually like to go back a bit. I remember some posters saying that Ness has bad mobility. I’m not sure why I keep seeing this.
Watching S1 play, I’m not sure how anyone can come to that conclusion. When you combine his high air acceleration, the strong gliding ability ness’ strange second jump adds, dair to halt his upwards momentum and land quickly with no lag, extended dash dancing back and forth, and ness’ excellent dash grab + attack as burst options... where does the weakness in mobility factor in?
Sure he has low run speed and air lower air speed, but his ability to weave and dance around is incredible. His neutral honestly doesn’t seem that bad when he can simultaneously make himself so hard to hit (that airdodge is just adds insult to injury) and approach from so many angles in the air with his giant aerials.
Glad it's not just the Ness mains who see it
Someone mentioned on the other page about making the distinction between mobility and burst mobility. Matters a lot for Ness. His mobility in broad strokes is not all that there, he's good at weaving in the air but the strengths stop there with relatively slow grounded movement options (his dash to shield is a little slow, which is a big shame, and I'm pretty sure Marth can walk faster than Ness can run) and an overall air speed that's nothing to shout about.
It's his burst mobility and how he can influence bursts of momentum that is at the core of what S1 abuses. And it's also these traits of Ness that give way to Gackt's really strong playstyle of dancing around the opponent's ranges and punishing them when they push buttons or move into the wrong zone.
I'm not too sure what you mean by dair halting his upwards momentum, sounds like you mean PSI Magnet cancels? Great tool to have regardless. Dair cancelling does have a lot of cool applications for his movement, e.g. lagless landing as you said, letting you fastfall to a platform and not go through it, shifting Ness' hurtbox to touch the floor earlier if he has double jumped, instant turnaround potential which is nice for uair/bair, stuff like that, in isolation or combination.
Also nice for someone to acknowledge that neutral isn't about running at the opponent in a beeline, trying to approach them and constantly getting steamrolled for it. Because when people talk about Ness' neutral, that's the sort of thing they seem to be thinking of without appreciating the dynamism of the neutral state and Ness can do a little bit more than grab.
Where his neutral is a bit awkward is when he is trying to get the hits in himself cos he can't really approach too well and his zoning is a little awkward. Gackt is amazing at recognising these opportunities to get hits in and playing the neutral to maximise the possibility of these hits coming. He's got good knowledge of when and how to push the boundaries of the opponent's zone of control, something I feel was particularly notable in his set with Ally at Little Big House.
If you're not crazy good at this game, another workable neutral strategy is to use Ness' burst options in tandem with other tools like SH Nair/rapid dtilt to pressure OOS options/other defensive options, which lets Ness cover a lot of them though not all at once (and is a little character-dependent), and mould your gameplan around that and your opponent's reactions. Ness' ability to pressure a shielding opponent and generally interact with shields + how strong his own shield is for him is an important part of his neutral and one reason why it isn't totally bad. A lot of this pressure comes from his burst mobility as you mentioned.
(incidentally, it's a tangent but another important reason as to why his neutral isn't totally awful is that most of the time, in most matchups that aren't Marth/Cloud/Corrin, Ness can simplify a lot of interactions by just threatening to trade with nair, bair or uair. Don't underestimate that factor of his neutral, the threat of that trade which will often leave Ness better off and in a positon of outright control gives him more control over the neutral than some people will give him credit for. obviously not a watertight strategy but often worth consideration.)
Great list.
I'm not one to argue over ultimately unimportant semantics like one or two character spaces.
Almost every single character placement seems fantastic to me, though.
Only issue is ZSS being a bit too high. Nairo basically admitting she has 4 6:4 matchups and being shown to struggle so much vs the top 2 that he'd rather play half the cast is telling of a character that doesn't deserve such a high placement. She's similar to Mario in the "sucks but doesn't really sucks" mindset I and a lot of other ZSS players seem to have.
Bowser has more grab range, and also has disjointed arms. On more moves than DK actually, considering Bowser has arm intangibility on jab and DK doesn't.
Yeah but DK's jab is 2 frames faster. DK's everything (with a few exceptions) is faster than bowser and his intangibility is frame 1 on F/DTilt while Bowser's intangibility on normals is frame 10 at fastest. DK's normals flat out beat bowser's. Bowser does have better landing options and more useful specials though. Bowser has grab range but loses in startup and FAF speed. DK's js is frame 6, Bowser's is 8. DK's also more mobile, although Bowser has a slightly faster run his air speed is considerably worse.
It'll come out in more detail with a follow up article (probably), but Japan has a VERY low opinion of Wii Fit.
Going by the voting data from Japanese players, they're looking at Jigglypuff and Wii Fit as the worst in the cast. I forget if some voted Jigglypuff over Wii Fit but I wouldn't be surprised.
Please Europe and South/Central America, give me your powers!!!
It'll come out in more detail with a follow up article (probably), but Japan has a VERY low opinion of Wii Fit.
Going by the voting data from Japanese players, they question which of Jigglypuff or Wii Fit is the worst in the cast.
You wouldn't happen to know if Japan has any good Wii Fits currently, would you? I haven't heard of RIN at all since G3 and maybe the complete lack of her in a region where everyone has someone is why this happened?
I personally believe Doc wins, he goes well against Kirby's tools in most situations. He can take him well in the neutral, keep a strong advantage state with his damaging combos and ability to catch Kirby's landing/ledge options with Up-Smash. I feel Kirby has to work harder to take neutral from Doc, along with by-passing his fast, low lagless moves and strong kill power going against Kirby's lighter weight. Not to mention that jab 1 into Up-B is kill confirm against Kirby at high percents due to his lightweight and floaty nature..
Keep in mind both characters can edgeguard each other hard.
Overall, it's not a curbstomp battle, Kirby can certainly put up a fight but I think Doc has a significant advantage on Kirby.
Okay I'm agreeing to disagree with this Doc V Kirby topic.
Doc is higher on the tier list, yet Kirby has more results.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Dust in the wind to most players.
You wouldn't happen to know if Japan has any good Wii Fits currently, would you? I haven't heard of RIN at all since G3 and maybe the complete lack of her in a region where everyone has someone is why this happened?
Heavysmoker is most likely the 2nd best Wii Fit of Japan, and he's a mostly inactive Wii Fit that would more commonly play online: That's how abysmal Wii Fit's representation in Japan is. I think i can count more mains of any character from Japan, than i count for Wii Fit in Japan. That's probably a factor.
While we're on the subject of Japan, not to rub salt into the wound, but doesn't Japan have a pretty bad opinion of Kirby?
It'll come out in more detail with a follow up article (probably), but Japan has a VERY low opinion of Wii Fit.
Going by the voting data from Japanese players, they're looking at Jigglypuff and Wii Fit as the worst in the cast. I forget if some voted Jigglypuff over Wii Fit but I wouldn't be surprised.
Please Europe and South/Central America, give me your powers!!!
Hearing people talk about one of as the worst has gotten old, but Wii Fit being considered the worst? That's an interesting claim some Japanese players are making. It feels weird thinking that with what John Numbers has done, but at the same time, I can't quite dismiss the claim outright with how she functions. I look forward to this followup.
Bowser has more grab range, and also has disjointed arms. On more moves than DK actually, considering Bowser has arm intangibility on jab and DK doesn't.
Good to know. I always figured DK had the intangibility because of his DTilt, which has ridiculous range and can confirm into a grab if used with trip.
Unlike Bowser, DK can also confirm Jab 1 into a grab at later percents, which is beyond ridiculous. Plus he has Dair for range.
You wouldn't happen to know if Japan has any good Wii Fits currently, would you? I haven't heard of RIN at all since G3 and maybe the complete lack of her in a region where everyone has someone is why this happened?
Hearing people talk about one of as the worst has gotten old, but Wii Fit being considered the worst? That's an interesting claim some Japanese players are making. It feels weird thinking that with what John Numbers has done, but at the same time, I can't quite dismiss the claim outright with how she functions. I look forward to this followup.
Yeah it was surprising to see it, but it also isn't out of the ball park considering, as you put it, how she functions.
Predominately viewed as a character who thrives off lack of patience (particularly in ledge/off stage situations, feinting), has tools that negate crossover option spreads which is a staple mix up at all levels (but horrible OoS ability otherwise due to poor hitboxes/animations), you can see how in a gaming culture where true patience isn't seen as a rarity that someone like Wii Fit is relegated so low.
Probably would need to interview/ask those players directly. When it comes to outside votes (especially non-English backgrounds) we don't get to prod or discuss.
I personally believe Doc wins, he goes well against Kirby's tools in most situations. He can take him well in the neutral, keep a strong advantage state with his damaging combos and ability to catch Kirby's landing/ledge options with Up-Smash. I feel Kirby has to work harder to take neutral from Doc, along with by-passing his fast, low lagless moves and strong kill power going against Kirby's lighter weight. Not to mention that jab 1 into Up-B is kill confirm against Kirby at high percents due to his lightweight and floaty nature..
Keep in mind both characters can edgeguard each other hard.
Overall, it's not a curbstomp battle, Kirby can certainly put up a fight but I think Doc has a significant advantage on Kirby.
Okay I'm agreeing to disagree with this Doc V Kirby topic.
Doc is higher on the tier list, yet Kirby has more results.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Dust in the wind to most players.
Even, IMO. Doc's bair is reaaaalllllyyyyy effective against Kirby. Otherwise, playing the MU the same way you would Mario is extremely effective. Box him out and run away.
Japan has a VERY low opinion of Wii Fit.
Going by the voting data from Japanese players, they're looking at Jigglypuff and Wii Fit as the worst in the cast. I forget if some voted Jigglypuff over Wii Fit but I wouldn't be surprised.
Hoping this is alright to ask, but I think someone pointed this out, I noticed a good deal of the voters were ones I recognized were from Japan, Eur. ,etc. out of NA in general, and I was wondering if this would be mentioned in the followup post, as well as how so many non-NA voters may have impacted the list, since WFT seems to have been impacted by it.
Good to know. I always figured DK had the intangibility because of his DTilt, which has ridiculous range and can confirm into a grab if used with trip.
Unlike Bowser, DK can also confirm Jab 1 into a grab at later percents, which is beyond ridiculous. Plus he has Dair for range.
Mario is fine where he is in the tier list - for now.
Do top players edge guard Mario? It is actually pretty easy, though fear the cape and the forward air. Do people edge guard Mario, remind me. I feel like edge guarding Mario is under utilized. His recovery is actually not that good and a careful, patient player can easily edge guard an impatient Mario thrusting for cape and forward air disrespect. They still do have to be aware of the cape and the dunk, but that is it. Even Doctor Mario can do a fine job edge guarding Mario with back airs - that is if he makes it back.
Mario is fine where he is for know because he actually does pretty well for a top tier in results, but I do not think Mario can achieve being top eight or higher at this point.
Given how many matchup charts I see with -1 and -2 being the absolutely worst a given character can have, most characters are straight up solo viable. Without getting into how Smashers are weird with MU numbers, I can’t think of an actual, real hard counter in this game outside of maybe Ganon/Bayo.
Top players switch off of characters all the time, it may or may not have anything to do with an actual advantage character X brings to the MU over character Y. It’s almost always because they want a change up to see if character X can do better and/or because it will likely throw their opponent off.
Obvious instance: Komo switching off of Cloud to go Roy doesn’t mean that Cloud can’t beat Bayo.
Even more obvious: Leo has stated multiple times that he basically counterpicks or whatever by how he feels at a given time.
I totally agree with this. For example, Smash 4 is more balanced so it now depends on skill. A skilled Ganondorf can still hard read Bayonetta and win the game. A Kirby can punish a Sonic even, the match up is not impossible or nearly like Meta Knight vs Ganondorf in Brawl. It all depends on skill.
I totally agree with this. For example, Smash 4 is more balanced so it now depends on skill. A skilled Ganondorf can still hard read Bayonetta and win the game. A Kirby can punish a Sonic even, the match up is not impossible or nearly like Meta Knight vs Ganondorf in Brawl. It all depends on skill.
I agree with the general premise of this statement but in the specific case of Ganon vs Bayo it's a terrible MU. Bayo shuts Ganon down with bullet climax and zones him extremely well. Approaching her is hard. Then bayo has huge payoff from juggles going for her too. It's one of the few MUs that feels Brawl levels of bad.
You’ve got Ness as a grappler with surprisingly strong aerials, and Lucas as an effective zoner with greater combo ability and a significantly better recovery.
I've heard Lucas called a grappler and a zoner in this thread. I think something that can be one of Lucas's strengths could be mixing up these playstyles instead of heavily relying on one.
This can help prevent a Lucas player from driving themselves into a corner when one playstyle fails to work in a match.
I'd say a "zoner" Lucas revolves around pressuring the opponent with the following:
PK Fire -
A mix of ground and short hop PK Fire (includes wavebounce and B-Reverse PK Fire)
PK Freeze spam -
Literally.
Even commentators have caught on to Mekos doing this recently for better or worse.
Lucas can do this at the start of the match or whenever Lucas finds himself fullscreen (read as huge gap/distance) from his opponent. PK Freeze has a lot of shield stun and very low endlag to boot. So regardless if the opponent chooses to spotdodge, shield, or airdodge, Lucas is able to get out his 2 frame jab 1 or a shield which can lead into a grab if the opponent uses an unsafe attack onto Lucas's shield or just runs at him.
If Lucas is vs. an opponent like Marth who uses Dolphin Slash or another opponent that either has a frame 1 move or a quick move with invincible/intangible startup. (think Ryu's Shoryuken) they may be able to bypass PK Freeze's endlag and Lucas's jab 1 (I'm not too sure on this last part, it will need to be tested).
Furthermore, if an opponent decides to airdodge PK Freeze, Lucas can charge the move slightly longer to catch the opponent after the airdodge. However, if Lucas's opponent has a counter, reflector, Game & Watch's Bucket, or a PSI Magnet they can avoid the setup entirely.
Slightly unrelated but if an opponent counters PK Freeze near Lucas it can result in him taking a ton of damage or a stock (Corrins have taken stocks off of me when I get PK Freeze happy). I forgot exactly but I'm pretty sure that if Game & Watch buckets PK Freeze, no matter how much Lucas charges it, he gets a full bucket so I find it best to avoid using that move vs him unless you find challanges fun and they make you play better.
I don't see the merit in zair to approach to be honest because it's very difficult to reliably follow up on it unless you're so close that it's not longer safe on block.
I use this move to space and slowly inch my way towards the opponent while at the same time, annoying them with this low damage and low knockback move similar to Megaman's Mega Buster. I use it to to stop sudden approaches. Think of it like you are poking a friend with a long pool noodle until they snap on you. In smash terms to me, this becomes either a dash attack or the opponent runs at Lucas.
You can also use it as a substitute for PK Fire as a mixup if you think your opponent is expecting it or if you just want to mix it up. Occasionally I'll full hop with this move to catch attempts to jump over Lucas.
As for the followups from a sweetspot Zair, Lucas is able to start another version of his footstool repetition or if the opponent is above 100%, Lucas is able to land an up smash, get a maximum of 3 down tilt locks into a kill move of his choice, or a dash attack that can take the stock. Keep in mind that being hit by sweetspot Zair above 120% can either send the opponent into a tech situation or the untechable spin animation.
Link to video of the specific footstool repetition I was referring
to.
I've managed to reproduce this on other members of the cast in training mode, but not to kill percent... yet; and for some characters it seems like you are not able to lock them until kill percent with this method. I think if Lucas mains can get this down, we can possibly do this on Battlefield so we do not have to worry about platforms anymore.
The inputs are fast and tight, but I believe there is a rhythm to it; and yes Lucas does have enough time in-between each lock to choose which side he wants to land on and is even able to push the opponent a short distance during his dair endlag.
Ok, more about zair. The easiest and most consistent way I find Lucas is able to land sweetspot Zair instead of just doing it in neutral, is off of a footstool lock. Sweetspot Zair at mid percents (think like 60-90%) is able to true combo into PSI Magnet to send the opponet offstage or a fair.
Lucas can also true combo a sweetspot Zair into a dash grab at low percents. Lucas can easily land this after a lock.
This video should solve your Nair problem with Lucas.
The answer I usually see to SDI Lucas's Nair is down and away or just SDI the opposite direction Lucas is moving.
Do keep in mind that Lucas can still follow your SDI and land Nairplanes on you (up to 3 Nairs back to back; usually involves the use of a double jump).
If Lucas is able to land a full Nair on an opponent, he can convert it into a footstool lock, an upair, a dair, or a bair if the Lucas still has his double jump and the opponent is sent in a favorable position when leaving the last hit of nair.
If nairplanes are the Lucas player's primary way to deal damage and you manage to SDI out of it (Lucas's Nair has a 2.0 SDI multiplier, slight exxageration, but the slightest SDI will allow you to escape the move with ease) they will probably have a tough match.
People like to hype up his PKT1 for edgeguarding/gimping and think it's better than Ness' because it goes through them. This is a misguided opinion imo because a) Lucas PKT is slow as hell, and has tighter turning circles - it covers/threatens much less space and is generally easier to play around for that reason; b) Lucas' PKT holds the opponent in their position and gives them time to think, unlike Ness' which forces people to fall immediately - obviously vastly preferable; c) Lucas PKT has a lot of endlag, meaning his pressure stalls when the PKT ends and you've got to start it up again from first gear. Lucas can also struggle to keep people on the ledge if they keep their getup obscure.
Points A & B I have not actively thought about. A for being easier to play around and less space to threaten, B for giving opponents the time to think.
All I think I can add to this (which you already know) is that some Lucas players decide to aim PKT1 at Lucas right before the move ends or when they have decided they are done edgeguarding the opponent to send themselves across the stage to safety for the most part.
Characters like Pit can use Palutena's Bow to inflict damage on Lucas if they (Pit) manage to get back on stage in time, while characters with charge shots (Samus, Mewtwo, Wii Fit Trainer, Lucario, and Mii Gunner) can just let it rip and watch a helpless Lucas get blasted.
Characters with fast running speed like Captain Falcon and Sonic can just simply follow Lucas's escape and punish with whatever they feel like.
As far as Down Throw to Dair leading into a tech chase, I think that is news to me. I'm familiar with dair to no tech leading into the following: upair, footstool to dair lock into create your own combo, sour bair to sweetspot bair spike, a fair, 2 sweetspot bairs, an up air after a sweetspot bair, or if opponent DI's away from Lucas during a sweetspot bair that is usually a free stock.
I'll agree that using Dair as a tech chase may not be reliable and it sounds really odd to me at that, but if the Lucas does decide to follow the opponent after they tech, Lucas can a either land with a sweetspot bair (while still allowing Lucas to drift away from his opponent) or a retreating sweetspot fair on the opponent's shield if they decide to shield to make his landing as safe as possilble or he could fall with a cross-up nair where Lucas would land on the opposite side of his opponent from where he started the nair for a situational mixup.
But most likely I can see him getting punished for even thinking of trying to land on the opponent's shield unless he gets the chance to up air the opponent or their shield close to the ground, then that is safe.
A little more abour nair.
Lucas can use a short hop nair to fast fall cross up if he is next to his opponent and they decide to shield it. He can even use an approaching/retreating short hop nair to cover rolls as an edgeguard which is I believe PK Bash was getting at with this.
Lucas does have his nair which is cool for this but it can be a little risky for my tastes and again, you really have to commit to it and hope you guessed right.
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I know I talk about characters having stream representation and performance a lot, and how it plays a big role in how the community views the roster's viability.
I found this comment in the 4br V4 tier list news article and thought I would share it since I share a similar and I think this user put a lot of thought and time into their post.
If you ask me...Robin's biggest problem is perception.
Here's one example: Robin's frame data isn't anything to write home about, but it's not exactly "weak" like Ganondorf's or Shulk's or et cetera. Quite a few of Robin's moves--especially his aerials--start slow but end fast. People see the slow startup but overlook how freakishly low commitment some of his moves are for their power and comboability. For example: Did you know Robin's forward air (FAF 34, hits on 12-18) finishes faster than Marth's does (FAF 38, hits on 6-8)? Or that he has the earliest overall autocancels of any sword user? Seriously! But these kinds of things get overlooked because they aren't obvious on the surface.
It shows up in bigger ways, too. So when you think of a disjoint zoner, what do you picture? Probably Marth, right? Melee Marth specifically, hammering people's shields with lightning fast low commitment sword swings in a way that's really more pressure than zoning? That's what a lot of Smashers picture when they think of, well, any character who wields a sword, and they tend to expect Marth from them and dock points from them if they don't play like Marth and don't have any standout overpowered tools like Corrin's pin or Cloud's Limit mechanic. But Robin's disjoints don't work like Marth's, as you've noticed: he can't throw out walls of hitboxes with knee-jerk levels of reaction. Instead, his disjoints are designed to swing first and then end fast before they can be punished. It's different, it works when used properly, but since it's not what a disjoint zoner is expected to do, it gets overlooked and Robin's swordplay gets written off as "slow Marth" rather than a different but still effective style of zoning.
Then again, think of how many times Robin's disjoints get overlooked entirely! When Smashers see projectile zoners, they usually expect hardcore long range camping like you see from For Glory Links and Samuses. It's not even optimal for them, mind you, but it sticks since at that low level it feels like their natural tendency and it's frustrating as hell to deal with until you learn the counterplay to it. And so Robin gets expected to do that, too. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone assume Robin auto-loses any matchup to any character with a reflector or low crouch due to them assuming 100% of Robin's neutral must be mindless projectile spam! Thing is, that's not what his spells are geared for at all--Robin's projectiles work best at midrange or just past it, he prefers to be more proactive and take control of the stage rather than sitting back and pitching a tent, and hell, Arcfire's an advantage state tool, not a neutral one! But since characters with projectiles are expected to be long range campers, Robin gets docked for not doing that very well while his projectiles' actual strengths are overlooked.
"Wait a minute", you may be wondering, "If this is all true, why don't more people know about it?" Well, when's the last time you've seen a Robin on stream at a big tournament? It's been a while, hasn't it? Not only is Robin one of the rarest mid tiers out there (I think only Olimar and the Pits are rarer?), Robin players have this frustrating tendency of never getting to go on stream even when they're doing well. How many Robin sets were streamed at Fire Emblem Saga's main tournament? One. How many were streamed at Smash Con, where three Robins made it out of pools and Ke-Ya beat Larry Lurr on the first day? Zero. Maybe it's a long series of coincidences, maybe it's due to a lot of big name Robins being under the radar, maybe it's that frustratingly prevalent assumption that Robin must be slow and campy and boring to watch. But whatever the reason, high level Robin play is almost never seen by the greater Smash community, and so there's never a chance for those incorrect impressions to be disproved. And then since no one realizes when a Robin main does something notable due to them never being on stream (shout out to Skorpio getting 7th at Midwest Mayhem last month), people don't notice what results he has!
It's a giant self-fulfiling prophecy. I honestly don't know how to fight it, it's not easy to get noticed when your character gets written off left and right for not fitting a really rigid mold (shout out to Dath going on a ridiculous run last year, only for Robin to fall three spots in the v3 tier list that immediately followed).
Apologies for blowing up the comments. This just happened to be a good segue into something that's had me at my wit's end for months.
An example I found for Lucas players took place months ago. This was at a big tourney which had a stream ( I think a main and a secondary for Smash 4) and it also had a good portion of the Smash 4 community watching it. I recall Mekos and Nova being there, Pauleke too and several other Lucas mains they had gathered and formed a meeting spot in the venue for all the Lucas mains in attendance. Anyway, there was one Lucas player at the tourney who was not a member of Lucas Discord at the time, but during the week of the tourney, in Lucas Discord and maybe on Twitter, I really forgot, players in the venue and the members of Lucas Discord at the tourney were talking highly of a Lucas main who in their descriptions said that he was really on point and consistant with his footstool combos. I vaguely remember finding his name in bracket on smash.gg and saw that he got really far in the tourney, yet to my dismay he was never on stream.
Thinking about it now in relation to Delzethin's quote, multiple players saying that Lucas's footstool combos are too hard or inconsistent (these comments usually come from people who do not play Lucas or are new Lucas mains who quickly ditch the character due to refusal of learning his footstool combos which some Lucas mains consider is required for optimal Lucas play), and the PK Blueberry video I linked in the 2nd September 20th spoiler tonight got me thinking that Lucas could of had a chance for a strong or popular showing outside of montages, locals, and combo videos. But due to reasons not known by me or something I fail to understand, it did not happen. That's what I was trying to say.
I think the difficulty for his footstool combos are blown out of proportion unless Lucas is doing it to a character that can drift really far and fast, no matter how many times I'm told that Taiheita messes them up too.
Or perhaps I'm really biased towards footstool combos since I have been practicing them since Day 1 of Lucas's release when PK Blueberry released his first Lucas footstool video on Lucas's release day.
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This right here is all extra but it is more Lucas information.
These spoilers contain all of my Lucas posts I could find with information on him dating back to the V2 Tier List. The spoilers are marked by dates. Inside each spoiler is a link that should jump you to a specific post.
These spoilers are not necessary to read but if you enjoy Lucas, would like to know more about him, or are new to the threads and/or missed the previous comversations about him or need a refresher, these should catch you up.
The one I really want you guys and gals to read is PK Bash's amazing Lucas essay and my long post in the spoiler tab immediately below that. I believe those two have the most useful Lucas information in it.
Enjoy!
P.S: I added a video under the second September 20th spoiler that shows a new video that I believe I have not shared in the forums.
I know this post is very long so I'll be reposting this under the Lucas forum in case a Lucas main or I want to find this stuff for easy access.
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...nsight-analysis.445990/page-116#post-21790184 In regards this post, I once fought a Charizard in Charizard Discord who second guessed if he should Dair meteor smash Lucas's PKT2 recovery when I was below the stage. He jumped off the stage as if to get the timing for his Dair right, then all of a sudden he double-jumped back on stage (it was on Battlefield), let me grab the ledge, and then attempted to punish my getup. I forgot how the rest of the match went since it was months ago, but I remember aaking him why he did not spike me and he said that he thought my PK Thunder was just like Ness's. I basically told him to not hold back next time and go for it.
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...nsight-analysis.445990/page-174#post-21841289 This video can help clear up misconceptions players may have when performing Lucas footstool combos.
Here is the description of the video for those who may have missed it: "Just wanted to make this incase there are some still confused on when to do the footstool, or didn't know you can react to their DI."
EDIT 1: Decided to add even more extra stuff that crossed my mind during and after I posted this, but I held off on it because it was getting me side-tracked while I was typing the main post.
Added a paragraph after Delzethin's quote
Added a short segment covering 2 Lucas techniques that I did not mention so far below this bullet point list
Added a video of my match showing a potential reset Lucas can use on opponents, although I chose to use it because I decided to avoid using the footstool lock in this match below this bullet point list.
Correctly spelled refresher.
Edit 2: Done editing this post
Edit 3: Added "not" after "I have" in the parenthesis sentence below where I talk about a potential Lucas re-grab or pseudo chain grab with down throw to Jab 1-2 to a second grab.
Extra Lucas Tech: Lucas is able to auto/frame cancel (forgot which one is which) his bair and dair.
He can cancel his bair by inputting a short hop airdodge (can also work if you buffer the airdodge, I believe) and inputting bair or buffering it near the end of his airdodge. This works because Lucas's Bair has an autocancel window at the very beginning of the move, 2 frames if I am right.
Lucas can also cancel his dair from a short hop and a full hop with a very delayed fast fall timing. I have tested thison the lower Battlefield platforms, the Smashville platform, and multiple Town and City platforms at different heights (not all the platform transitions I believe) with short hop method and they work. I cannot recall off the top of my head if they work on Lylat and Dreamland though. All credits go to Lucas Discord.
To my knowledge, these 2 techs are not actively used and are just lying around gathering dust.
I think these tactics can be used to bait opponents into attacking with an unsafe move so Lucas can get a punish similar to how Shulk Discord different Shadow Eye and Vision Eye methods which would consist of; being in a certain Monado Art or Vanilla (default) Shulk, using an array of jumps, double jumps, airdodges, and aerials just so they could land on the stage with frame percect timing that will never fail so they can always execute their advance tech.
In short, do a lot of movements to make it appear like you are landing with endlag or mispaced an aerial and then counter your opponent's agression with a suprise punish. I think Lucas cpuld almost pass for a discount Shulk in this regard since the first few frames of his Up Smash are intangible so Lucas could use that once he lands with his auto/frame cancel moves.
Or he could just shield the attack and use his own punish after or even press a button to beat out the opponent's move. What just flew through my head right now is throwing out a f smash to all those who dare throw a charge shot my way.
Around 12:28 in this video, I land a down throw into a up air, into a second down throw that leads into a bair spike with a missed tech that leads into one more grab with an up air.
I got this idea from a fellow Lucas Discord member who would start his matches with me off like this and I quickly grew fond of it.
Now I know this is sloppy, but I think it may be able to work on fastfallers at low percent. By "it" I mean the grab to quick up air into a regrab. It may have a chance as a mixup if the opponent does not expect it.
If the opponent were to pop too high in the air from the down throw and up air, Lucas can simply mash jab 1-2 or time jab 1-2 to hit the opponent once Lucas is done with his down throw animation, since henis able to act extremely early from his down throw, almost before the opponent is launched from it.
Using that Lucas can do a down throw to jab into a free regrab at low or rather any percent (I have not tested if Lucas can get the jab at high percent, so that right there is pure theory) he chooses too for a mixup. If the opponent buffers an aerial, or a reversal type special move (think Marth's Dolphin Slash or Ryu's Shoryuken) Lucas can either shield and punish however he sees fit or parry it with his up smash's start up invulnerabilty, or even charge/begin a smash attack to bait or punish an attempted air dodge that will result in the opponent landing on the ground in even more end lag.
This is not tier list related but about tournament and rankings. Since Japan have a lot of good players and that the newest Japan Power Ranking may be coming in early 2018, I want to hear some predictions of what players will enter top 30 of Japan Power Ranking and the players who will drop out of top 30. I'm interested to see your predictions!
I agree with the general premise of this statement but in the specific case of Ganon vs Bayo it's a terrible MU. Bayo shuts Ganon down with bullet climax and zones him extremely well. Approaching her is hard. Then bayo has huge payoff from juggles going for her too. It's one of the few MUs that feels Brawl levels of bad.
Well Gannon vs Pre-patch Bayo was likely Brawl Gannon vs MK levels of complete utter futility and hoplesness. Now it' possibly winnable for Gannon....maybe.
Also as soon as Bayo gets Gannon offstage. In almost all cases he IS NOT getting back on with the same number of stocks.
You're right in the sense that Greninja highly benefits from trickery (I mean it fits the character's essence): confusing the opponent with movement and mixing players up has always been one of the keys to success with Greninja.
However, I get the sense that you're thinking of it as a crutch and I disagree with that. Salem and Stroder, for instance, mostly rely on fundamentals to succeed and focus on just using the right moves for each scenario. While Greninja's frame data isn't the best (though with buffs overtime, I don't think it's horrible), each move has characteristics that demand respect in either neutral or advantage. His f-air, for instance his slowest aerial apart from d-air at frame 16, but its range commands respect from absolutely everyone, it's huge and outranges most sword character's attacks. Combined with its damage output, I see it as a beautiful neutral tool. No tricks around it at all. And then his u-air and b-air at frame 7 and 5 respectively give him just the tools he needs to juggle and edgeguard. They're not crazy on their own, but when you put them on a character with Greninja's aerial mobility, his advantage state becomes really strong just at a fundamental level. Even on the ground he's got a respectable frame 3 jab, a really long f-tilt, a disjointed u-tilt that anti-airs well alongside f-tilt and can lead to big rewards with the strong hit, and a moderately long ranged and quick frame 5 d-tilt to take advantage of his crawl and low stature. And he's got a quick projectile another form of long-range control in Hydro Pump. Lack of "get-off-me" options aside, you have a character with a really complete kit with the attributes to take advantage of it. That does not sound like a character that needs smoke and mirrors to me.
Btw, I do appreciate that you took the time to watch these Greninja players and use them as references in your post. I feel too often that people who think lowly of Greninja just don't watch the right players, so it's interesting to see this perspective.
Tru, tru. I might have been underselling Greninja’s tools just a bit. I like this lol
However, there’s one nitpick I have and that’s the usefulness of Greninja’s fair. While powerful and big, I don’t think it’s quite powerful or large enough to warrant that frame data. You say it out ranges most sword char’s attacks but whenever I see venia and Mr.E play, I see venia constantly struggle to contest Marth’s bubble and get in to deal his damage. He usually tries to stand back and throw shurikens until either his impatience gets the better of him (dude absolutely hates camping lol) and he runs into a bair/fair/ftilt, or he successfully punishes Mr.E for whiffing an overly eager button. There’s also the fact that the hitbox is a straight line and lacks the arc that pretty much all swordies have that allows them to control more space.
Comparing Greninja’s fair to the spacing tools other sword characters have, it feels really lackluster. Seeing Venia wield that thing so well is incredible but I can’t help feeling like his opponents aren’t punishing it has hard as they can. When venia is doing his classic full hop fair approach, why do so few people powershield it? It’s so hard to not telegraph Greninja’s fair, I feel.
I agree that order within tiers is counterproductive, but on the subject of DK and Bowser, I seem to recall Hikaru (who plays both) saying that he thinks Bowser is slightly stronger. Obviously he prefers DK regardless, and DK seems to be the more popular and effective pick. However, it seems to me that they both serve more or less the same function; as player-based counterpicks or for muscling through unstable matchups with their unga bunga power.
Maybe this is silly, but I'd argue for them occupying the same spot, or at the very least they ought to be in the same tier. Now, that may give more weight to theory than results, so feel free to disagree. But honestly, they're the same character. One just happens to be more popular at top level right now.
I think it's time for people to stop considering Bowser and DK as effectively the same character/close enough to be the same spot or always right next to each other.
They're really not the same character. They have their similarities (they're both fatties with grab shenanigans and stupid limb intangibility), but there's more to them than that. DK has better overall mobility. DK has better overall frame data. DK has actually usable aerials. There is a significant gap in results between DK and Bowser. The differences are enough that I don't see how we can treat them as we do Marth+Lucina or the Pits, even if they perform the same role. They're more like Ness and Lucas where they've been tethered to each other for a long time despite them being different enough to not warrant doing so.
I think it's time for people to stop considering Bowser and DK as effectively the same character/close enough to be the same spot or always right next to each other.
They're really not the same character. They have their similarities (they're both fatties with grab shenanigans and stupid limb intangibility), but there's more to them than that. DK has better overall mobility. DK has better overall frame data. DK has actually usable aerials. There is a significant gap in results between DK and Bowser. The differences are enough that I don't see how we can treat them as we do Marth+Lucina or the Pits, even if they perform the same role. They're more like Ness and Lucas where they've been tethered to each other for a long time despite them being different enough to not warrant doing so.
Bowser has a number of unique strengths all his own, though. If I recall correctly, Hikaru said he thought Bowser was better a while back.
Ultimately, it's one of those things that needs to be resolved in practice instead of in theory. Until we see a Bowser on the level of Hikaru, we'll never really know. Remember, there was a large gap of time between DK getting Ding Dong and the level of results we're used to seeing now.
Bowser has faster run speed, a shorter dash to shield, an air usable command grab that effectively always autocancels, unique physics that actually get him out of some combos, better OoS, much better recovery distance, and mostly better ground moves (jab is safer and has better frame advantage; ftilt is safer, kills much earlier, doesn't become weaker when tilted down to "2-frame", and doesn't have z-axis issues; dtilts differ greatly between the two, but they both have their purposes). I mentioned the better grab range previously, but it bears repeating that Tsu finds Bowser's pivot grab more difficult to play around than DK's as Lucario, and the combination of faster run speed and more actual range makes Bowser's dash grab that much better as well.
I don't think it's strictly that people say "oh they both pivot grab and (cargo) uthrow>uair they're the same character" so much as their other unique traits come down to playstyle preference or matchup rather than one strictly being better than the other.
For Kirby vs. Doc, one potentially fruitful way to compare them is to ask, "If I was a master of both and had to take one of the two into battle versus [top tier character], who would I choose?" I don't know either character well, but I definitely not pick one over the other across the board.
For example, Kirby's compact size and offstage play would probably be a better fit vs. Cloud, but I think Doc's sheer power off of stray hits is a better thing to have vs. Mewtwo.
There's a lot of top tiers in this game, so it's not like they can all be discussed at once, but feel free to bring up whichever top tier you think Kirby/Doc do better at than the other.
You wouldn't happen to know if Japan has any good Wii Fits currently, would you? I haven't heard of RIN at all since G3 and maybe the complete lack of her in a region where everyone has someone is why this happened?
RIN is currently the highest-ranked (and only PR'd) main in Japan, at 192nd. OCEAN (38th) and Ginko (59th) are the only other PR players listed as using , both as secondaries.
For comparison, all other characters' highest mains (and highest solo mains, if different; if no PR mains, highest secondary):
So, all things considered, there's no surprise Japan doesn't think much of . Only and arguably are less valued on their PR, and especially considering most of the arguables are less popular/worse clones, it makes sense that Japan would see Wii Fit as bottom 2.
I agree that order within tiers is counterproductive, but on the subject of DK and Bowser, I seem to recall Hikaru (who plays both) saying that he thinks Bowser is slightly stronger. Obviously he prefers DK regardless, and DK seems to be the more popular and effective pick. However, it seems to me that they both serve more or less the same function; as player-based counterpicks or for muscling through unstable matchups with their unga bunga power.
Maybe this is silly, but I'd argue for them occupying the same spot, or at the very least they ought to be in the same tier. Now, that may give more weight to theory than results, so feel free to disagree. But honestly, they're the same character. One just happens to be more popular at top level right now.
I feel like DK is better than Bowser and they both are not together ( The Pits are together because they have practically the same moves ). Bowser and DK do not and they can both to different things. DK is better because his recovery is slightly better than Bowser's, and DK actually has a more soild horizontal game with a good back air. And one more reason is DK gets better results than Bowser and he has a better match up overall.
Browser has better mix-ups, better hit for hit damage, better mobility, and overall slightly greater survivability.
I FEEL like DK is better just due to safety on his buttons. Being able to touch a shield and not fear retaliation is kinda sorta maybe really a big not exactly negligible thingamajig
Of all things that are better on DK compared to Bowser, I can assure you recovery is not one of them.
Also, as far as a horizontal game, DK is burdened by his lack of a good forward-facing option, whereas Bowser's Fair is pretty good and ACs in a short hop.
Tru, tru. I might have been underselling Greninja’s tools just a bit. I like this lol
However, there’s one nitpick I have and that’s the usefulness of Greninja’s fair. While powerful and big, I don’t think it’s quite powerful or large enough to warrant that frame data. You say it out ranges most sword char’s attacks but whenever I see venia and Mr.E play, I see venia constantly struggle to contest Marth’s bubble and get in to deal his damage. He usually tries to stand back and throw shurikens until either his impatience gets the better of him (dude absolutely hates camping lol) and he runs into a bair/fair/ftilt, or he successfully punishes Mr.E for whiffing an overly eager button. There’s also the fact that the hitbox is a straight line and lacks the arc that pretty much all swordies have that allows them to control more space.
Comparing Greninja’s fair to the spacing tools other sword characters have, it feels really lackluster. Seeing Venia wield that thing so well is incredible but I can’t help feeling like his opponents aren’t punishing it has hard as they can. When venia is doing his classic full hop fair approach, why do so few people powershield it? It’s so hard to not telegraph Greninja’s fair, I feel.
Lol, imagine greninja running around with a marth fair. A forward facing aerial on a character that fast would absolutely suck for people who aren't Greninja.
