Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MERPIS]

Yo what's the actual deal with Corrins bair? is it really safe of shield when spaced properly? What can you do after you land one on an opponent's shield? Since they'll be looking to punish you. AND, what is the best way to hit with corrins bair?

 

[Rizen]

Yo what's the actual deal with Corrins bair? is it really safe of shield when spaced properly? What can you do after you land one on an opponent's shield? Since they'll be looking to punish you. AND, what is the best way to hit with corrins bair?

Looks like her Bair is +1 on drop, which isn't bad or great. 14f landing lag's decent too.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...OWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=943524191

 

[The_Bookworm]

Major update: Midwest Mayhem 11 will be B Tier as well. That means that there will be two B Tier events this weekend.

Also, a new PGR'ed event just sprouted out: Battle for Vegas, which will also be B Tier as well.

Again, here is the link the thread of keeping track of PGR'ed events, plus PGR v4 recap:
https://smashboards.com/threads/pgr-v5-updates-and-pgr-v4-recap.453122/

Edit: Also Umebura 31 is happening on 3/21/18, and is, unsurprisingly, a C Tier event.

 

[Aaron1997]

Got to put this here right now but.....

SMASH SWITCH CONFIRMED THIS IS NOT A DRILL

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

SMASH 5 IS HERE!!!!!

 

[The_Bookworm]

SMASH 5 IS HERE!!!!!

What where?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Looks like the meta is changing. Also new smash is likely a smash 4 port and not a new smash based off the logo and the time it’s coming out which means we won’t have a huge game change, but a pretty sizeable one

 

[Shaya]

Alright.

Agreed. I'd imagine most players would be better off picking Lucina. Even Mr. E, a top level Marth player, seems to prefer Lucina in many MUs (then again, Lucina is somewhat better than Marth in some MUs).

Conjecture. Mr E's success has seemingly only gone downwards as he's upped his usage of Lucina instead of maintaining his Marth.
He may find her more comfortable whilst also having a more concise victory condition, but the latter goes both ways, especially against a fundamentals spacing character like Marth and Lucina.

P.S. One day I really hope people stop acting like tippers are some sort of random mechanic.
They've somehow been able to not be a random mechanic in two previous iterations of Smash.

Corrin's up-air, bair, neutral-B, up-throw, and side-B are all better than Marth's. In general, I'd say Corrin has a somewhat easier time killing than Marth, though Marth does have some pretty good options (like jab to f-tilt, or side-B near the ledge, or backair, or tipper f-smash).

Corrin's bair? Better at killing? Maybe in some raw-numbers only world? Better in general??? The bias here is unreal.
Marth's bair is a huge move that tippers close to his body on start up. In this match up in particularly this move punishes and beats out essentially all of Corrin's zoning tools (including pin).
Also hilarious that you forgot almost every move Marth has kills.
Being literally better in some sort of vacuum universe is a shallow way of arguing.
Corrin's up throw is better at KOing, but is it easier for Corrin to get a grab?
Pin is an amazing and centralising tool, but holy moly, Dancing Blade is one of the best Smash moves of ALL TIME. They exist in slightly different paradigms where the main difference you seem to focus on is one is overtuned/overloaded while the other is not. Both are bread and butter to them. However, Marth would still function to some extent without Dancing Blade (although prior to them fixing it up his status as a low tier was an easy observation) while Corrin would barely function as a character anymore.

He goes even with Corrin and goes even or slightly loses against Cloud. It's not bad, but it's n.ot exactly "good counter-pick".

I'm not sure Corrin is even; Marth's sword is effectively bigger and his bair and nair push through the zones Corrin's entire game focuses around.
But to be fair I rarely see this match up played at higher+ levels. However, Marth by design naturally excels and overwhelms the FE cast one way or another; Corrin's "brokenness" can surely even that up a bit, but fancy losing footsies, losing in disjoint and not being able to recover? That's what Marth does to basically all the Emblemers.

Marth "kills much earlier"? I'm not sure if I really agree there. Anyway, it's true that Marth is faster, but Corrin is heavier. "no horizontal recovery", are you forgetting that Corrin can use her bair to assist her recovery, if needed? And her up-B does travel quite a bit if you angle it. Corrin's can also hit through the stage for some stages (like Battlefield) if you angle it correctly.

You mean, using bair, in the opposite direction of where it's hitbox is that's hugely telegraphed?
People aren't really edge guarding Corrin yet either - the character's up-b is slow start up and they're completely exposed to the side/below them.
If you cover for/take away their option to mix up recovering high, traditional smash edge guarding (i.e. timing a dropping from the ledge -> aerial or jump aerial) is very effective against Corrin - not vs Ganondorf effective but people are horrendous at trying to end stocks off stage in Smash4, Corrin is a very susceptible case.

On the opposite end, edge guarding Marth is underutilized too, but not too many characters have the right type of aerials for it.
Ledge drop bair from Mario will trade almost every time but not always favourably (Sheik has it even worse; but there are some weird sweetspot percent where sour dolphin slash trading with bair gives her a very strong BF follow up likelihood), yet Doctor Mario does it better because his bair actually strong enough to stop Marth from being able to come back after one success. Ironically, again, low tier power, but Falco's down air being a large hitbox with long duration AND low end lag (after the hitbox ends) means that he can either spike Marth or get a sour hit into back air (or fair).
Traditional edge guarding is harder on Marth depending on the stage (you want space in front of Marth), but while Falco or Zero Suit can't just ledge drop bair (usually; for Falco the risk of a trade is still worth it), them timing a ledge drop and rising up with their bairs against Marth forced to up-b is a dead Marth.

.
Now for the rest of your post, those 3 match ups are likely easier for Corrin. Primarily because of the power of certain tools.
Marth doesn't have any exuberant tools like that for sure. He's a lot more smash-skill based than abusing tools based.
But he definitely has more diverse tools.
So who is actually worth more in the meta?
Well if you only focus on match ups in such a way that revolves around the super-strong tools and neglect most of everything else, Marth's going to look weaker.
Top 10 area is a lot more evenly matched, barring Bayonetta, than people tend to give credit for IMO.

Corrin could come out on top in the long run, but Marth will always have more options at his disposal.

 

[The_Bookworm]

OMG I just saw the direct. Cool to see Bowser's Inside Story (although I never played the original) getting remade, and N Sane Trilogy going to switch. In the teaser, I noticed that Link looked loosely off of Breath of the Wild...

 

[Deleted member]

Looks like this thread is going to be kind of over soon, considering Smash for Switch. I am really excited to see the Smash for Switch's meta and what characters are bad, decent or good. Honestly, Inklings are guaranteed or Smash for Switch so I wonder what they will do and how well will they place in the meta. Also ZeRo might make a comeback could happen. Smash 4's dark times are over, as Smash for Switch will hold the torch to victory. The Smash for Switch hype is real man.

 

[blackghost]

People need to reel in this smash 5 talk real quick. Things like botw looking link could just be new costumes. We don't know if characters will be heavily changed or touched at all. But i really dont think this will be a new game to the competive scene. Maybe the 3ds modes and stages and a new character or two.
Speaking of new character im laughing so hard right now because i was so off and because knowing this community when the hype dies off if the inkling arr keep away zoners pple will hate them.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Looks like this thread is going to be kind of over soon, considering Smash for Switch. I am really excited to see the Smash for Switch's meta and what characters are bad, decent or good. Honestly, Inklings are guaranteed or Smash for Switch so I wonder what they will do and how well will they place in the meta. Also ZeRo might make a comeback could happen. Smash 4's dark times are over, as Smash for Switch will hold the torch to victory. The Smash for Switch hype is real man.

Considering that Nintendo is promoting the Bayonetta franchise, alongside winning the ballot, she seems to be likely to return.
However, considering what Sakurai did to Sheik, it wouldn't be without nerfs. It is not going to be a direct port, even if the game is inspired by SSB4 gameplay and mechanics.

 

[NotLiquid]

Looks like the meta is changing. Also new smash is likely a smash 4 port and not a new smash based off the logo and the time it’s coming out which means we won’t have a huge game change, but a pretty sizeable one

Smash 4 came out 4 years ago and the DLC was developed mostly by a skeleton team. That's a long time ago by game dev standards that feels shorter by virtue of the DLC characters still coming out. Odds are this version of Smash was put in development sometime in 2015-2016, when the final batches of DLC characters were rounding out development.

The fact that this is coming out in 2018 and revealed in this way, when other Wii U ports got less glitz and glamor, and more upfront about them being deluxe versions, tells me that Nintendo are probably going to market this as a sequel, a Turbo/Rev 2 if you will, and that would be an easy thing to do. Smash is at a point where I don't think the developers are gonna jettison years of the work they put into every facet of it, so it's better to just rebalance the game, possibly adjust some game play stuff, add new characters, upgrade the aesthetics, update stuff like visual portraits/UI, add new stages, add new modes, but basically build it off of Smash 4, and there's your new game.

Basically Smash Switch is probably going through the same thing Splatoon 2 went through; start the game off with the intention of being a port, yet ballooned into becoming it's own new game in a way as more things got added. They wouldn't have held this port off for so long otherwise.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Actually, this is likely Smash 5. There is no title, production hasn’t even started yet, it’s a different logo, BOTW Link. Also, this is def not gonna be out in 2018. It hasn’t started development according to Sakurai so yeah


EDIT: Translation: While we haven't gotten to the point where we can announce the game's title, I've been working on the title in silence day after day. Please look forward to new information and when the title goes on sale!!

So the early dev was just a Mis translation.

 

[MERPIS]

I hope that:
1: Villager, Wario, and Kirby recieve buffs
2: Netta and more or less Cloud get nerfed into heck
3: They don't screw over Mewtwo like they did the last 2 times
4: ICs return
5: Either Bandana Waddle Dee becomes a newcomer, or they remove 2 FE reps, FE is nowhere even close as popular as pokemon, mario, zelda or kirby, but that's a topic or agrumentfor another day...

 

[NotLiquid]

Actually, this is likely Smash 5. There is no title, production hasn’t even started yet, it’s a different logo, BOTW Link. Also, this is def not gonna be out in 2018. It hasn’t started development according to Sakurai so yeah

You're misreading his tweet. He said he's working on it every day, and that right now they can only announce it's existence. That doesn't mean it isn't already ways into development, and that 2018 date wouldn't have been put in there otherwise. What this really means is that Nintendo probably want to wait until closer to E3 so they can do this whole Smash promotion thing again and have a reveal blowout + tournament, and they already have Kirby Star Allies + Mario Tennis Aces that they want to focus on marketing right now. Throwing out Smash info and details right now is just gonna distract them from their currently relevant products.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Let's "switch" this speculation on a different thread, and get back on topic. (Like the two B Tiers happening this weekend / Marth vs Corrin discussion)

 

[Rizen]

Looks like the meta is changing. Also new smash is likely a smash 4 port and not a new smash based off the logo and the time it’s coming out which means we won’t have a huge game change, but a pretty sizeable one

Wonderful, now everyone will play the same game on a console I don't have.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

We can migrate here for Smash 5.

https://smashboards.com/threads/sup...tion-discussion.434391/page-411#post-21937328

This thread will finally be used by me. And here I thought Smash Switch Speculations were hopeless. So glad I am wrong now!

 

[The_Bookworm]

As expected, the character support threads are going ham. XD

 

[UnknownM]

Woah that Ness placement is not what I had expected but understandable, personally hope he receives a recovery buff in Smash 5. :D

 

[ARGHETH]

Does this mean "plz nerf/buff X" discussions are coming back?

 

[J0eyboi]

Does this mean "plz nerf/buff X" discussions are coming back?

Probably.

buff shulk roy roy and robin

 

[Gunla]

Please use the speculation forum for the next game's discussion. When the time comes, then things will shift over.

But right now, the game is still active. I suppose this sort of wheel keeps turning and turning...

 

[The_Bookworm]

Please use the speculation forum for the next game's discussion. When the time comes, then things will shift over.

But right now, the game is still active. I suppose this sort of wheel keeps turning and turning...

This game might still be active even after the new smash's release, similar to how Melee is still being played. Time will tell.

Anyways, what do you guys think of Link and Falcon in the current metagame, as a change of pace.

I am going to count the number of days it will take for someone to reply to this thread, once the speculation-apocalypse calms down.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Anyways, what do you guys think of Link and Falcon in the current metagame, as a change of pace.

Proper timing with the possible change to BOTW Link, eh?

 

[WiFi]

You realized it was BOTW Link too? I didn't see that coming.

If it is a port, expect a Bayonetta nerf.

To prevent this from being a red post, I'm going to say that Marth is where I believe he belongs on the tier list at this time.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Proper timing with the possible change to BOTW Link, eh?

So much for the day counter.

Aside from the BOTW Link reveal, I am interested to see what people thinks of Link in the metagame since T is probably going to stay in Japan for a while.
I think Link would somewhat hold his position, as T gets good results in Japan, particularly his 9th placement at EVO Japan. All we could do is what and see.

 

[WiFi]

Hyrule Saga is coming around the bend.

 

[The-Technique]

I didn't catch the Direct, what makes everyone think that characters will get nerfed beyond the announcement of a new smash game/characters?

 

[Lord Dio]

Looks like this thread is going to be kind of over soon

I wouldn't necessarily say that.
Odds are that the number of people watching and playing smash 4 will decrease, but I think it'll still be alive. More so than brawl.
I mean, there's melee threads active last I checked.

Editing for safety's sake, is there a list of all invitees to Hyrule saga?

 

[WiFi]

I didn't catch the Direct, what makes everyone think that characters will get nerfed beyond the announcement of a new smash game/characters?

Dunno, Inklings were confirmed though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Woah that Ness placement is not what I had expected but understandable, personally hope he receives a recovery buff in Smash 5. :D

We kinda talked about the Ness drama several a few pages ago, most recently at page 74.

I didn't catch the Direct, what makes everyone think that characters will get nerfed beyond the announcement of a new smash game/characters?

If Bayo returns (which seems likely considering that Nintendo is supporting the series, and she was the smash ballot winner), it seems likely that she would be nerfed again considering what Sakurai did to Sheik. The game will change from SSB4, with the Inkling and BOTW Link revealed.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

To steer the discussion from Smash 5 hype and speculation I present this new Cloud edge guard method dubbed the Cloud Killer. All credit goes to Tato and DRBatt of the Nesscord.

TL;DW: You can use your ledge grab intangiblity to protect yourself from Cloud's up b and stage spike him with any drop off aerial/move. This is possible because of the beefy smash doods video where Cloud is unable to tech during a certain part of Climhazzard's animation.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=GBsCYnFx484

Thoughts?

 

[The_Bookworm]

The the discussion from Smash 5 hype and speculation I present this new Cloud edge guard method dubbed the Cloud Killer. All credit goes to Tato and DRBatt of the Nesscord.

TL;DW: You can use your ledge grab intangiblity to protect yourself from Cloud's up b and stage spike him with any drop off aerial/move. This is possible because of the beefy smash doods video where Cloud is unable to text during a certain part of Climhazzard's animation.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=GBsCYnFx484

Thoughts?

"tech", not "text"
I've known this for a while now. Just to add insult to injury with his recovery.

 

[zzmorg82]

This game might still be active even after the new smash's release, similar to how Melee is still being played. Time will tell.

Eh, I'm skeptical; Melee came in from a different era of gaming, and the technical skills for that game has a long lasting effect and competitiveness drive.

I feel like this new Smash game and Smash 4 will be similar in gameplay mechanics aside from a few tweaks and new characters; I wouldn't be surprised if Smash 4 has a fallout out like Brawl did (although a few tournaments are still held every now and then).

You're right though; time will tell.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Great find, Nesscord. I originally asshumed this video was going to be about using ledge get-up attacks to stage-spike Cloud.

For the buff/nerf/remove arguements that I have seen with patches and wishful thinking for Smash 6 (not wishful anymore huh?) I have not been a fan of them. I always see them as players wanting to get rid of the characters that are roadblocks for them competitively.

 

[Minordeth]

Oh, Marth, again? Oh he’s overrated this week? Cool. Cool.

So, we are gonna pretend like Marth is actually honest?

Like we are gonna overlook stuff as if he doesn’t have one of the most busted jabs in the game which frame traps and combos into itself, lives off of traps that a handful of characters can deal with, has safe aerials with dumb range, and the best ground game of all the swordies between stupid strong Dtilt and DB?

We are gonna overlook that almost every move he has can kill, that there are actually set ups into these moves, and that he can walk faster than some characters run?

So this week is “Marth is actually not incredibly oppressive, no, really” week?

Sweet.

Shaya I think you missed the memo. Which is weird, since I’m pretty sure I saw it on your desk.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Very few characters have tilts that are safe up close. Literally the only one that comes to mind is Diddy's dtilt. Spaced, Marth's Dtilt is very safe, as is his jab.



-16 on shield drop looks awful on paper, yes, and should be easily punishable, but you fail to account for the human aspect of it. The move is just too fast with too little shieldlag to actually punish on reaction.

As for pin, you are entirely correct. Especially because Corrin really likes having stage.

You sound young.

-16 is VERY reactable.

If you can't do that then train harder.

 

[J0eyboi]

You sound young.

-16 is VERY reactable.

If you can't do that then train harder.

You're right, that's totally reactable. For some reason, I thought it was -12, not -16 (despite writing that it's -16, yes), but even then, that's still pretty reactable, so I'm not sure what I was thinking.