Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The_Bookworm]

I'm actually surprised that the meme and talks of pocket Cloud has died down. We used to see those everywhere to the point where some players meme'd that they do not believe that ANYONE does not have a pocket Cloud. Now I guess this is replaced by Bayonetta. I was really surprised when I was going through VODS of a tourney from a few months ago that had Locus as Bayonetta in the thumbnail. I was disappointed, but players do what they feel is necessary to stay in bracket. Yesterday, I saw Locus on stream using Bayonetta, and the commentators were talking about it as if it was normal which was odd to me, but I'm glad that it is working for him. For a minute, I was worried that he was going to drop Ryu for Bayonetta

Locus had a secondary Bayonetta for a while now.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Not sure if it's relevant, but I wonder if Locus picked up Bayonetta because of 9B. I remember at some point he mentioned 9B as a major source of inspiration for his Ryu, so that may have carried over.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Not sure if it's relevant, but I wonder if Locus picked up Bayonetta because of 9B. I remember at some point he mentioned 9B as a major source of inspiration for his Ryu, so that may have carried over.

Never thought of that. I miss 9B (especially since he is the inventor of the "9B Dive", which is SD'ing using Bayo's downward angled ABK).

Is is just me, but is ROB on the rise lately?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I miss 9B's Shulk.

 

[The-Technique]

Not sure if it's relevant, but I wonder if Locus picked up Bayonetta because of 9B. I remember at some point he mentioned 9B as a major source of inspiration for his Ryu, so that may have carried over.

Locus mainly picked up Bayo because he deemed Sonic and Rosa to be hopeless matchups for Ryu to deal with

 

[Minordeth]

Some tourney weekend recap:

Dabuz does what Dabuz do: lab and win. I don’t think Rosa is as good as Dabuz is, but her ability to dumpster characters is almost unparalleled.

Mr. R played uncharacteristically sloppy this weekend, and I’m not sure what the deal was. But when he tightened it up, he made it look like he was playing single player. Especially in moments from his set with Ally. Sheik is busted.

Props to Cpt. Zack for being the closest Bayo to beating Leo’s Marth. He was playing rather well this weekend, and his mix-ups, neutral, and restraint kept the games close.

WaDi got into Grands, but seemed lost against Tweek. He has always had some bad habits, and I think he got torched, in part, because Tweek either studied them, or caught on quick. Mewtwo is one of the few characters that can really force the approach from Bayo, and instead of playing more reactively, he almost wanted to buck the “flowchart” Mewtwo.

Which is weird, cause flowchart Mewtwo is dumb strong.

Tweek is taking Salem’s place right now, slowly but surely. But he has also avoided both Dabuz and Leo, and even ESAM, who was going on a hard Baystruction run. Can’t deny he adapts quite well, and has some excellent awareness in game. He’s reduced his autopilot quite a bit and doesn’t get as flustered.

Props to Zinoto for taking out Leo and also making it to grands. After a stretch of underperformance, beating a contender for the best player in the world is a strong return to form. Diddy ain’t dead yet.

It’ll be interesting to see what happens when all the major players meet up again. We’ve had a conspicuous absence of Nairo outside of Japan, who is the only player that has a recent history of stopping both Dabuz and MKLeo. Sleeping giants, and all that.


Also, I kind of loved Zero’s exuberant commentary during top 8.

 

[The-Technique]

Chicago.

EGLX 2018 (172 Entrants) (Ontario)

1st: Tweek
2nd: WaDi
3rd: ESAM
4th: Mistake
5th: Lima
5th: Ally
7th: Samsora
7th: ANTi
9th: Mr. R
9th: Larry Lurr
9th: Smokk
9th: MVD
13th: LetsTickle
13th: Venom
13th: K9Sbruce
13th: THUNDER

Tweek went Cloud for exactly 1 game, vs Samsora. He's seeming to become a Bayo main now.

And everyone thought Tweek and Leo were just memeing when they said "Cloud sucks"

 

[Lord Dio]

Tweek is taking Salem’s place right now, slowly but surely.

Been thinking about this for a while now, and decided to vent it.
I think Tweek will be the best smash 4 player in the world. Not Salem, not Leo, not Nairo.
wall of text incoming

Spoiler

First off, he's insane skilled as a player, top 5 in terms of neutral and ability to adapt.

Second, he pretty much, mains bayo and secondaries cloud, with that pocket DK. He plays three of the 5 best counterpick characters in the game, which cover any and all matchups. The only characters considered by a majority of people to go even with or win against all three are sheik and diddy, and even then, he's covered by both his skill with his three characters, as well as a possibility of playing sheik or diddy against the opponent. Tweek said after Frostbite he was skilled at essentially the whole cast. While I personally doubt that, it says a lot. Both Nairo and.....Ally? idk, it was two people at the same tournament who cp'ed diddy against salem, oen of which was Nairo. Plus the history of top players, top ten included, of picking up secondaries (Nairo a ton of people, Ally and Mr R Cloud, VoiD's experimenting with zss, larry has a diddy now),,,,,it would not surprise me if Tweek was having trouble against a sheik or diddy and pulled out a sheik or diddy of his own, partially due to his skill, and partially due to how good he is at dittos (for the most part).

Third, opposition. I'm pretty sure the last time Tweek lost to someone outside top 20 was ZeRo saga, quite a while ago. In addition, Tweek is incredibly rough for even the top 20 to take out now. Samsora went game 5, and he lost to Ally and WaDi at the championship, but usually when I think of Tweek losing a set, it's when he fights ZeRo or a few other peopl. So with ZeRo gone, let's take a look at people who have consistently either given him trouble, beaten him, or are just really good and might pose a problem.
Komorikiri: Komo has notoriously bested Tweek in the Cloud ditto, but komo struggles against bayo, and is picking up Roy in response. Because he usually loses the ditto, Tweek goes Bayo, and until Komo can answer this and beat Tweek's bayonetta, he might as well be taken out of the picture.
Dabuz: Not a problem for Tweek usually, but still here for being a top 5 player. Dabuz struggles against Tweek's Cloud, and it's only on those rare days like Frostbite where he pulls through. If he can become as consistent at slaughtering Cloud as he is Bayonetta, he'll become a definite problem for Tweek, and maybe a contender for best in the game. But until he consistently beats Tweek, he's not a problem.
Nairo: Nairo gives Tweek trouble in the past with his Bowser. Now that Tweek has Bayo, I foresee their matches becoming either Nairo's diddy vs Tweek's bayo, or tweek's bayo vs nairo's zss, both of which I see tweek winning. So no real evidence to back it up, except that Tweek is much more proficient with his bayo than nairo with his diddy, and zss suffers against bayo. It all points to Tweek being a problem for Nairo.
Salem: Another example where I'm not really completely sure of what I say because I don't and have not watched their sets. But from general knowledge, Salem's bad at the ditto, and Tweek is good at the ditto. Which would mean Salem would have to really train up his Greninja. So for now I don't see Salem giving Tweek problems.
MKLeo: Possibly the most complex matchup for tweek due to his characters. Tweek has always been Leo's demon, constantly destroying him at the cloud ditto. However, they're proving to be moving past the ditto, which is where things get tricky. Tweek beat Leo's MK with his DK at Leo saga, but Leo might have gotten over that considering he made short work of Konga at Genesis 5. Leo likely would play Marth against Tweek's bayo and beat Tweek there. But Leo also has the pocket corrin, so there's a multitude of matchups to be considered: Tweek's DK vs Corrin, Cloud, and Marth. Tweek's Cloud vs MK, Corrin, and Marth. Tweek's Bayo against MK, Cloud, and Corrin. 9 possible matchups or so. I see their future fights as possibly being giant counterpick battles, each person counterpicking the other with a new character (this probably won't happen and they'll stick to one matchup but it'd be really funny to see). So Leo is definitely a complex MU for Tweek, but I think in the end tweek edges out.
Those are really the only people worth mentioning imo since they'll be top 5 along with Tweek this season, and any close matches or losses he's had from the rest of top 20 can be considered a fluke (considering WaDi got boped by Tweek this weekend, that victory from the championship looks like a bit of a fluke tbh).

In conclusion, Tweek being really good at the game, the characters he plays (as well as the ability to play other characters), and little to no opposition, I think he'll be the best in the world.

 

[The_Bookworm]

And everyone thought Tweek and Leo were just memeing when they said "Cloud sucks"

They were memeing lol. A lot of the Cloud players were either absent this weekend, or in Midwest Mayhem.

Been thinking about this for a while now, and decided to vent it.
I think Tweek will be the best smash 4 player in the world. Not Salem, not Leo, not Nairo.
wall of text incoming

Spoiler

First off, he's insane skilled as a player, top 5 in terms of neutral and ability to adapt.

Second, he pretty much, mains bayo and secondaries cloud, with that pocket DK. He plays three of the 5 best counterpick characters in the game, which cover any and all matchups. The only characters considered by a majority of people to go even with or win against all three are sheik and diddy, and even then, he's covered by both his skill with his three characters, as well as a possibility of playing sheik or diddy against the opponent. Tweek said after Frostbite he was skilled at essentially the whole cast. While I personally doubt that, it says a lot. Both Nairo and.....Ally? idk, it was two people at the same tournament who cp'ed diddy against salem, oen of which was Nairo. Plus the history of top players, top ten included, of picking up secondaries (Nairo a ton of people, Ally and Mr R Cloud, VoiD's experimenting with zss, larry has a diddy now),,,,,it would not surprise me if Tweek was having trouble against a sheik or diddy and pulled out a sheik or diddy of his own, partially due to his skill, and partially due to how good he is at dittos (for the most part).

Third, opposition. I'm pretty sure the last time Tweek lost to someone outside top 20 was ZeRo saga, quite a while ago. In addition, Tweek is incredibly rough for even the top 20 to take out now. Samsora went game 5, and he lost to Ally and WaDi at the championship, but usually when I think of Tweek losing a set, it's when he fights ZeRo or a few other peopl. So with ZeRo gone, let's take a look at people who have consistently either given him trouble, beaten him, or are just really good and might pose a problem.
Komorikiri: Komo has notoriously bested Tweek in the Cloud ditto, but komo struggles against bayo, and is picking up Roy in response. Because he usually loses the ditto, Tweek goes Bayo, and until Komo can answer this and beat Tweek's bayonetta, he might as well be taken out of the picture.
Dabuz: Not a problem for Tweek usually, but still here for being a top 5 player. Dabuz struggles against Tweek's Cloud, and it's only on those rare days like Frostbite where he pulls through. If he can become as consistent at slaughtering Cloud as he is Bayonetta, he'll become a definite problem for Tweek, and maybe a contender for best in the game. But until he consistently beats Tweek, he's not a problem.
Nairo: Nairo gives Tweek trouble in the past with his Bowser. Now that Tweek has Bayo, I foresee their matches becoming either Nairo's diddy vs Tweek's bayo, or tweek's bayo vs nairo's zss, both of which I see tweek winning. So no real evidence to back it up, except that Tweek is much more proficient with his bayo than nairo with his diddy, and zss suffers against bayo. It all points to Tweek being a problem for Nairo.
Salem: Another example where I'm not really completely sure of what I say because I don't and have not watched their sets. But from general knowledge, Salem's bad at the ditto, and Tweek is good at the ditto. Which would mean Salem would have to really train up his Greninja. So for now I don't see Salem giving Tweek problems.
MKLeo: Possibly the most complex matchup for tweek due to his characters. Tweek has always been Leo's demon, constantly destroying him at the cloud ditto. However, they're proving to be moving past the ditto, which is where things get tricky. Tweek beat Leo's MK with his DK at Leo saga, but Leo might have gotten over that considering he made short work of Konga at Genesis 5. Leo likely would play Marth against Tweek's bayo and beat Tweek there. But Leo also has the pocket corrin, so there's a multitude of matchups to be considered: Tweek's DK vs Corrin, Cloud, and Marth. Tweek's Cloud vs MK, Corrin, and Marth. Tweek's Bayo against MK, Cloud, and Corrin. 9 possible matchups or so. I see their future fights as possibly being giant counterpick battles, each person counterpicking the other with a new character (this probably won't happen and they'll stick to one matchup but it'd be really funny to see). So Leo is definitely a complex MU for Tweek, but I think in the end tweek edges out.
Those are really the only people worth mentioning imo since they'll be top 5 along with Tweek this season, and any close matches or losses he's had from the rest of top 20 can be considered a fluke (considering WaDi got boped by Tweek this weekend, that victory from the championship looks like a bit of a fluke tbh).

In conclusion, Tweek being really good at the game, the characters he plays (as well as the ability to play other characters), and little to no opposition, I think he'll be the best in the world.

MKLeo rarely loses the Cloud ditto to anyone. The thing that annoyed Leo is Tweek's DK, which Leo theoretically now has an answer to in his MK.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

A quick rundown of the last year for top players in the ditto:

Zack
SCR Saga – Captain Zack 3-1

Lima
They haven't met in bracket this year, afaik

Mistake
G5 – Mistake 3-0
SSC2017 – Mistake 3-0
SCR – Mistake 3-2, Salem's Greninja won 2 games

Tweek
Frostbite 2018 Tweek 3-1

Abadango goes Mewtwo now, because why not?.

Looks pretty good!

Some tourney weekend recap:

Dabuz does what Dabuz do: lab and win. I don’t think Rosa is as good as Dabuz is, but her ability to dumpster characters is almost unparalleled.

Mr. R played uncharacteristically sloppy this weekend, and I’m not sure what the deal was. But when he tightened it up, he made it look like he was playing single player. Especially in moments from his set with Ally. Sheik is busted.

Props to Cpt. Zack for being the closest Bayo to beating Leo’s Marth. He was playing rather well this weekend, and his mix-ups, neutral, and restraint kept the games close.

WaDi got into Grands, but seemed lost against Tweek. He has always had some bad habits, and I think he got torched, in part, because Tweek either studied them, or caught on quick. Mewtwo is one of the few characters that can really force the approach from Bayo, and instead of playing more reactively, he almost wanted to buck the “flowchart” Mewtwo.

Which is weird, cause flowchart Mewtwo is dumb strong.

Tweek is taking Salem’s place right now, slowly but surely. But he has also avoided both Dabuz and Leo, and even ESAM, who was going on a hard Baystruction run. Can’t deny he adapts quite well, and has some excellent awareness in game. He’s reduced his autopilot quite a bit and doesn’t get as flustered.

Props to Zinoto for taking out Leo and also making it to grands. After a stretch of underperformance, beating a contender for the best player in the world is a strong return to form. Diddy ain’t dead yet.

It’ll be interesting to see what happens when all the major players meet up again. We’ve had a conspicuous absence of Nairo outside of Japan, who is the only player that has a recent history of stopping both Dabuz and MKLeo. Sleeping giants, and all that.


Also, I kind of loved Zero’s exuberant commentary during top 8.

I already brought it up before, but do you expect any of these players to take you seriously?

And before anyone writes this off as trolling, notice how the very top tier of players rarely comment on boards such as this. Heck, I even heard from other top players like ESAM that Smashboards really isn't that good for advice.

 

[TDK]

Rickles confirmed for Hyrule Saga.

I'm really hoping one of these Ganons can do something, since there seems to be a lot of them incoming.

 

[Minordeth]

I already brought it up before, but do you expect any of these players to take you seriously?

And before anyone writes this off as trolling, notice how the very top tier of players rarely comment on boards such as this. Heck, I even heard from other top players like ESAM that Smashboards really isn't that good for advice.

I’ve literally explained why I make breakdowns like this before.

So yeah, I’m writing this off as trolling.

 

[Dream Cancel]

I already brought it up before, but do you expect any of these players to take you seriously?

I haven't seen Minor's reasoning for why he isn't bothering with your reply, but regardless, top players are not immune to criticism or feedback. In my opinion, feedback from intelligent sources is something they require for continued improvement.

Even if the criticism in question is wrong, at least it is relevant enough for them to supply a necessary counter-argument as to why it's wrong. This defense of their decision-making can be used as a base for further improvement, either for solidfying their understanding of the game, or for further re-evaluation of their gameplay (in case of further discussion).

Even if they don't post their counter, it's still useful for them to check out anything is being mentioned about them, imo.

And before anyone writes this off as trolling, notice how the very top tier of players rarely comment on boards such as this. Heck, I even heard from other top players like ESAM that Smashboards really isn't that good for advice.

While I agree that top players rarely comment, that does not serve as a deterrent for productive discussion. If anything, we can benefit from it and bolster our understandings of the game we have invested so much into.

Lastly, I'm sure top players like ESAM have their reasons, but players like them probably have better resources to draw from, such as the feedback of other top/high level players, and/or the feedback of a more specialized community like high-level Pikachu mains. Again though, this does not serve as deterrent for productive and insightful discussion as, imo, most of us here stand to benefit from an enhanced understanding of Smash 4.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

but players like them probably have better resources to draw from, such as the feedback of other top/high level players, and/or the feedback of a more specialized community like high-level Pikachu mains.

If anything, that provides even less of a reason to give criticism to them on these boards.

 

[Minordeth]

If anything, that provides even less of a reason to give criticism to them on these boards.

that does not serve as a deterrent for productive discussion. If anything, we can benefit from it and bolster our understandings of the game we have invested so much into.

And/or

defense of their decision-making can be used as a base for further improvement, either for solidfying their understanding of the game, or for further re-evaluation of their gameplay (in case of further discussion).

Plus

Again though, this does not serve as deterrent for productive and insightful discussion as, imo, most of us here stand to benefit from an enhanced understanding of Smash 4.

Anyway,...

Waiting for MKLeo to give Sheik a go in tourney, one of these days.

 

[Heracr055]

Top players do take advice on Discord, so they are subject to criticism in the name of improvement. Coincidentally enough, we got Dabuz asking about ZSS in the zsscord not too long ago. So there's your answer Skeeter. Which is a good sign since:
1) The work done by labbers and character mains are valued by top players (and shows we don't just talk about this stuff for nothing)
2) Top players demonstrate their desire to become better players and aren't above gathering knowledge from the masses

 

[The_Bookworm]

Top players do take advice on Discord, so they are subject to criticism in the name of improvement. Coincidentally enough, we got Dabuz asking about ZSS in the zsscord not too long ago. So there's your answer Skeeter. Which is a good sign since:
1) The work done by labbers and character mains are valued by top players (and shows we don't just talk about this stuff for nothing)
2) Top players demonstrate their desire to become better players and aren't above gathering knowledge from the masses

The problem is that top players eat whatever info given to them, leading to characters (like characters that are considered underrated) placing higher or lower in their tier lists than what the metagame and results are saying.

The first of the Smash Masters League tournaments is Battle for Vegas, which is right now a B Tier event, happening in 3/25/18. These are the notable participants so far:

PRG'ed:
Salem
MKLeo
Larry Lurr
VoiD
Cosmos
Konga
Fatality
K9sbruce

Non-PGR'ed, but notable:
FOW
Captain L
Z
pu55yking
Kiraflax

[no one is replying thus so far]
[trying my best to avoid double posting warning]

 

[Frihetsanka]

The first of the Smash Masters League tournaments is Battle for Vegas, which is right now a B Tier event, happening in 3/25/18.

Cosmos, Konga, Fatality, FOW, two Pikachus and a Little Mac; this tournament could be pretty fun to watch. Why is FOW listed as "not notable", though?

 

[WiFi]

ESAM got 3rd at EGLX 2018! Pikachu is coming back! In all seriousness, ESAM is staring to outplace players like Larry this season. I'm guessing ESAM is probably going to be just outside of the top 10 this season.

I dual-main Cloud and Fox at this point, but I'm thinking of going solo-Cloud. Pocket Cloud is a dead meme.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

The problem is that top players eat whatever info given to them, leading to characters (like characters that are considered underrated) placing higher or lower in their tier lists than what the metagame and results are saying.

The first of the Smash Masters League tournaments is Battle for Vegas, which is right now a B Tier event, happening in 3/25/18. These are the notable participants so far:

PRG'ed:
Salem
MKLeo
Larry Lurr
VoiD
Cosmos
Konga
Fatality
K9sbruce

Non-PGR'ed, not notable:
FOW
Captain L
Z
pu55yking
Kiraflax

[no one is replying thus so far]
[trying my best to avoid double posting warning]

FOW=Not Notable...Why?

 

[Minordeth]

ESAM’s doing well this season because he happens to enjoy running over Bayonetta players. This is outside of the set that Lima gift wrapped and handed to him, ofc.

Actually, ESAM’s Pika is pretty well tuned to beating up Cloud and Bayo right now.

His only MU barrier seems to be... Mewtwo?

I’ll have to look back, but the last time I recall him beating a top Mewtwo (WaDi/Aba) was Smashadelphia? He clearly wasn’t feeling Pika against WaDi this weekend.

 

[MarioManTAW]

His only MU barrier seems to be... Mewtwo?

I’ll have to look back, but the last time I recall him beating a top Mewtwo (WaDi/Aba) was Smashadelphia? He clearly wasn’t feeling Pika against WaDi this weekend.

What about Sonic?

 

[Frihetsanka]

His only MU barrier seems to be... Mewtwo?

Mario and Ness are likely -1 MUs for Pikachu, Corrin could be as well (either that or a difficult even for Pikachu). Pikachu is a good character, top 15 easily.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

ESAM’s doing well this season because he happens to enjoy running over Bayonetta players. This is outside of the set that Lima gift wrapped and handed to him, ofc.

Actually, ESAM’s Pika is pretty well tuned to beating up Cloud and Bayo right now.

His only MU barrier seems to be... Mewtwo?

I’ll have to look back, but the last time I recall him beating a top Mewtwo (WaDi/Aba) was Smashadelphia? He clearly wasn’t feeling Pika against WaDi this weekend.

Pikachu has little to no -2 MUs out there. Realistically and without ESAM bias,

Pikachu loses to...
* Mario
* Ness
* Sonic
* Mewtwo

* Maybe Corrin, Rosa, Cloud, and Mr. Game & Watch but It can go even.

Pikachu is obviously top 15 character and I place him at 13th place in my tier list. He is basically above Ryu/Peach/Luigi and below Marth/Mario/Corrin. (No order).

 

[MarioManTAW]

Mario and Ness are likely -1 MUs for Pikachu, Corrin could be as well (either that or a difficult even for Pikachu). Pikachu is a good character, top 15 easily.

Pikachu has little to no -2 MUs out there. Realistically and without ESAM bias,

Pikachu loses to...
* Mario
* Ness
* Sonic
* Mewtwo

* Maybe Corrin, Rosa, Cloud, and Mr. Game & Watch but It can go even.

Pikachu is obviously top 15 character and I place him at 13th place in my tier list. He is basically above Ryu/Peach/Luigi and below Marth/Mario/Corrin. (No order).

Was he talking about the character or the player? If he was talking about the player, ESAM uses Samus for Mario.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Cosmos, Konga, Fatality, FOW, two Pikachus and a Little Mac; this tournament could be pretty fun to watch. Why is FOW listed as "not notable", though?

FOW=Not Notable...Why?

OPPS THAT WAS A TYPO. THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO SAY "but notable". If it was "not notable", then I would simply list the rest of the pools.

Pikachu has little to no -2 MUs out there. Realistically and without ESAM bias,

Pikachu loses to...
* Mario
* Ness
* Sonic
* Mewtwo

* Maybe Corrin, Rosa, Cloud, and Mr. Game & Watch but It can go even.

Pikachu is obviously top 15 character and I place him at 13th place in my tier list. He is basically above Ryu/Peach/Luigi and below Marth/Mario/Corrin. (No order).

I recently put Pika over MK at exactly 15th, thanks to ESAM's strong performances right now. I do agree that the Bayo's in the brackets is what boosted ESAM up the bracket. I do consider Mario and Ness -2 matchups for Pika, but overall a solid matchup spread.

 

[UnknownM]

I'd say the matchups suffers in the most would be or , would probably be -2 had it not been for him struggling off stage.


Btw, does anyone still consider to have a +0.5 or +1 advantage against ?

 

[Minordeth]

What about Sonic?

Mario and Ness are likely -1 MUs for Pikachu, Corrin could be as well (either that or a difficult even for Pikachu). Pikachu is a good character, top 15 easily.

Pikachu has little to no -2 MUs out there. Realistically and without ESAM bias,

Pikachu loses to...
* Mario
* Ness
* Sonic
* Mewtwo

* Maybe Corrin, Rosa, Cloud, and Mr. Game & Watch but It can go even.

Pikachu is obviously top 15 character and I place him at 13th place in my tier list. He is basically above Ryu/Peach/Luigi and below Marth/Mario/Corrin. (No order).

So, uhhh....

Was he talking about the character or the player? If he was talking about the player, ESAM uses Samus for Mario.

Yeah, I’m talking about ESAM as a player. It may also be that Pika doesn’t have good answers for Mewtwo in general.

This actually leads into a bit of top player psychology:

The cause of the level of difficulty of a match-up varies greatly depending on level of play.

Low level players will find any MU that they are not familiar with as difficult, even if their character doesn't innately struggle. This can lead to an attribution error where these players believe that an MU is unfavorable to their character, rather than to them. This mostly happens when their knowledge of the game is limited and they don't know what they don't know. It can also be tough to admit that you suck because you are still learning the game. Tiers, as a thing, don't generally exist here for obvious reasons.

Mid to high level players generally have a broader MU knowledge base, and have gained the capability to understand why top level players may not struggle in an MU that they themselves have trouble in. Greater game understanding leads to the ability to analyze at a higher level and try to address gaps in individual play. Tiers can have some degree of relevance at this level.

At the top level, the idea is that you know any given MU extremely well and thus, finally, tier differences become more easily discernible. Individual performance can matter as well, but only in as much as a players skill compensates for tier gaps.

So how does this relate to ESAM?
I'll get there.

Some top players have a tendency to be cautious when attributing wins and losses to either character or skill. You can either attribute difficulty to the character, lack of specific knowledge, or player performance.

Given that top level players have spent thousands of hours with their characters, they are more likely to attribute difficulties to their character and will attempt to increase their skill to compensate. But in a non-team game with 56 characters, lack of knowledge is still a very real issue.

Okay, so?
Well, you see this cautiousness with say, Dabuz and Zero, who think their characters lose more MUs than most of us would think. Zero was notoriously pessimistic about Diddy, and Dabuz always tries to balance how good of a player he is when evaluating an MU. They are more likely to tie in character difficulties to losses rather than the reverse.

Oh, this is where it ties in.
Yeah, because ESAM is the opposite. He is more likely to attribute losses to himself, rather than the character. He truly believes Pika is top 10ish and this is reflected in his MU charts and general discourse. Rather than emphasizing weaknesses, he sees vast potential in the character that he hasn't brought to fruition yet. Which is why he sees Pika only really losing maybe two MUs, as of his tier list video series.

As much as he gets ragged on, I do admire how much of a lab monster he is, and how much he believes in his character. I do think he ends up carrying Pika more so than vice versa, but whatever.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

Btw, does anyone still consider to have a +0.5 or +1 advantage against ?

I personally still consider it Slight Advantage in G&W's favor. Onstage lingering aerials and a partially invincible Up-Smash that works similarly to how Mario can use it against Pikachu helps him contest quick attack, Pikachu can't be careless with jolt camping because of bucket, G&W has a strong damage output and Pikachu doesn't want to trade, and overall I'd say he kills easier; especially with a decently large toot toot window to work with.

Offstage, G&W's recovery is hard for Pikachu to challenge which limits one of his main strengths while G&W can attempt to harass Pikachu offstage back. I feel like this is one of G&W's better relevant MUs. I haven't seen this MU at a high level outside of KOSSismoss beating Captain L a few times however, Esam seems to believe d-tilt alone swings it into Pikachu's favor from what I remember of him trying to explain it in the past.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I'd say the matchups suffers in the most would be or or, would probably be -2 had it not been for him struggling off stage.


Btw, does anyone still consider to have a +0.5 or +1 advantage against ?

Those two matchups have been Pikachu's bane for years now. Both of them are slightly less prominent than in 2015/2016, which aids Pikachu in the long run (as mentioned by False Swipe Gaming). Due to how rare Game and Watch (and Pikachu) is, it is kinda hard to put the matchup to the test, although Game and Watch seems to do well against Pikachu.

I personally still consider it Slight Advantage in G&W's favor. Onstage lingering aerials and a partially invincible Up-Smash that works similarly to how Mario can use it against Pikachu helps him contest quick attack, Pikachu can't be careless with jolt camping because of bucket, G&W has a strong damage output and Pikachu doesn't want to trade, and overall I'd say he kills easier; especially with a decently large toot toot window to work with.

Offstage, G&W's recovery is hard for Pikachu to challenge which limits one of his main strengths while G&W can attempt to harass Pikachu offstage back. I feel like this is one of G&W's better relevant MUs. I haven't seen this MU at a high level outside of KOSSismoss beating Captain L a few times however, Esam seems to believe d-tilt alone swings it into Pikachu's favor from what I remember of him trying to explain it in the past.

Of course, a single tilt moves the matchup to ones favor. #esamlogic

 

[TDK]

A couple more donation goals:

https://www.gofundme.com/espeonathyrulesaga
- Espeon•CH , the best Link in canada and a solid candidate for top 3 worldwide. It'd be his second out-of-canada tournament and he's more likely than any Link but T to make it out of pools.

https://www.paypal.com/pools/c/82CHurUEeY
This one's for Team France, consisting of ten top French players:

- Dr.DORF (Top 2 Ganon in Europe behind Adom)
- VinS (Top 2 Link in Europe behind Cat?)
- Glutonny
- Griffith
- Homika (Best Rosa in Europe)
- Elexiao (Best Greninja in Europe, possible candidate for best Greninja worldwide?)
- TheFlow (Best Roy in Europe)
- Ogey (Best Falcon in Europe)
- Ntai Kei
- Shido

 

[The_Bookworm]

I noticed how general the threads that I create are, such as the Best/Worst Custom Moves for Each Character threads, and my PGR v5 and PGR v4 Recap thread. I am planning to create one stating the order of each character's best/worst incarnation in the franchise, as a recap prepping for Smash Switch.

I will keep this thread informed of any new notable attendees to Battle for Vegas. Btw, what are your guys opinion of Ike?

 

[JustCallMeJon]

I noticed how general the threads that I create are, such as the Best/Worst Custom Moves for Each Character threads, and my PGR v5 and PGR v4 Recap thread. I am planning to create one stating the order of each character's best/worst incarnation in the franchise, as a recap prepping for Smash Switch.

I will keep this thread informed of any new notable attendees to Battle for Vegas. Btw, what are your guys opinion of Ike?

Ike generally have good hitboxes and powerful kill power but he held back very far by his sluggish frame data, linear recovery, slow mobility, predictable moveset aside of his bair, and being combo-food. Despite his cons slightly overshadow his strengths, his strengths are good enough to allow him to place decent results in tournmants like San placing top 8 on GOML 2017

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ike generally have good hitboxes and powerful kill power but he held back very far by his sluggish frame data, linear recovery, slow mobility, predictable moveset aside of his bair, and being combo-food. Despite his cons slightly overshadow his strengths, his strengths are good enough to allow him to place decent results in tournmants like San placing top 8 on GOML 2017

Do you agree with his current placement, or do you think it should change? I personally put him above Game and Watch, but that is it.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Yeah, I’m talking about ESAM as a player. It may also be that Pika doesn’t have good answers for Mewtwo in general.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Does ESAM not have a Sonic problem?

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Do you agree with his current placement, or do you think it should change? I personally put him above Game and Watch, but that is it.

It's difficult to where I place him, but I would place him at 42nd behind Mr. Game & Watch and Roy. Game & Watch is better because his strengths are more pronounce and his weaknesses are less glaring (He also handles better against Top Tiers and High Tiers than Ike). Roy is worse than Game & Watch but his results thanks to Levi and komorikiri lets him place 1 spot over Ike.

I do believe Ike is a rather underrated character tho and that he could be placed higher but right now, 42nd is my placement for Ike. Still 40th is fine by me.

 

[The_Bookworm]

It's difficult to where I place him, but I would place him at 42nd behind Mr. Game & Watch and Roy. Game & Watch is better because his strengths are more pronounce and his weaknesses are less glaring (He also handles better against Top Tiers and High Tiers than Ike). Roy is worse than Game & Watch but his results thanks to Levi and komorikiri lets him place 1 spot over Ike.

I do believe Ike is a rather underrated character tho and that he could be placed higher but right now, 42nd is my placement for Ike. Still 40th is fine by me.

The only (significant) thing komo's Roy have done is take a set off of Captain Zack. Levi is doing well in his region, but I feel like players like Ryo, San, and Soan are getting a bit more commendable results.

 

[The-Technique]

Ike generally have good hitboxes and powerful kill power but he held back very far by his sluggish frame data, linear recovery, slow mobility, predictable moveset aside of his bair, and being combo-food. Despite his cons slightly overshadow his strengths, his strengths are good enough to allow him to place decent results in tournmants like San placing top 8 on GOML 2017

Ike's frame data is only particularly bad with regards to his smash attacks, everything else ranges from decent (frame 4 jab, frame 7 b-air and d-tilt) to meh (frame 12 f-air and n-air) which is offset by the general shield safety and reward of his moves.

His recovery is linear but difficult for a lot of characters to edgeguard consistently (albeit very easy for a handful of characters) given that Ike can pick between recovering above the stage or toward the ledge, and covering both options is difficult (unless you're that handful of characters who can).

Ike's mobility isn't a particular hindrance save for a handful of matchups where there's a lot of cat and mouse involved (zoners basically). Optimal Ike gameplay is the opposite of predictable, you're constantly pressuring the opponent with either safe shield pressure or tomahawks followed by guaranteed combos and 50/50 kill setups.

Being combo food is whatever, but one thing Ike benefits from Smash 4's mechanics is Rage thanks to being borderline superheavy.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

The only (significant) thing komo's Roy have done is take a set off of Captain Zack. Levi is doing well in his region, but I feel like players like Ryo, San, and Soan are getting a bit more commendable results.

I could recognize that though. Ike's results were getting better.

Ike's frame data is only particularly bad with regards to his smash attacks, everything else ranges from decent (frame 4 jab, frame 7 b-air and d-tilt) to meh (frame 12 f-air and n-air) which is offset by the general shield safety and reward of his moves.

His recovery is linear but difficult for a lot of characters to edgeguard consistently (albeit very easy for a handful of characters) given that Ike can pick between recovering above the stage or toward the ledge, and covering both options is difficult (unless you're that handful of characters who can).

Ike's mobility isn't a particular hindrance save for a handful of matchups where there's a lot of cat and mouse involved (zoners basically). Optimal Ike gameplay is the opposite of predictable, you're constantly pressuring the opponent with either safe shield pressure or tomahawks followed by guaranteed combos and 50/50 kill setups.

Being combo food is whatever, but one thing Ike benefits from Smash 4's mechanics is Rage thanks to being borderline superheavy.

Also taken into account that Ike has a weak out of shield potential. His below-average grab range and very low traction hinder his viable grab game, while at the same time, Ike lacks legitimate options to immediately retaliate because the overwhelming majority of his grounded moves have moderate start-up lag (Like you mention before, his quickest attack other than jab is bair which comes out at frame 7 but requires reverse air rush to do it. D-tilt has fast start-up but has some end lag which can be punishable.)This compounds his susceptibility to pressure.

The mediocre frame-data of his moveset hinders his overall approach since it renders his grounded approach as predictable whereas his aerial approach, while decent, needs proper spacing and time in order to function.

 

[The-Technique]

Also taken into account that Ike has a weak out of shield potential. His below-average grab range and very low traction hinder his viable grab game, while at the same time, Ike lacks legitimate options to immediately retaliate because the overwhelming majority of his grounded moves have moderate start-up lag (Like you mention before, his quickest attack other than jab is bair which comes out at frame 7 but requires reverse air rush to do it. D-tilt has fast start-up but has some end lag which can be punishable.)This compounds his susceptibility to pressure.

The mediocre frame-data of his moveset hinders his overall approach since it renders his grounded approach as predictable whereas his aerial approach, while decent, needs proper spacing and time in order to function.

Ike's OOS options are limited but still demand respect, he can drop shield to jab and even d-tilt when characters land poorly spaced attacks on him. Having a few slow grounded moves isn't a huge issue when Ike's jab combined with his d-tilt pretty much cover all of his needs when it comes to boxing up close and playing a grounded game. D-tilt only has 2 frames more endlag than Bayo's d-tilt so it's really only punishable if your opponent is both insanely fast on the ground and has good options out of dash, but decent Ike's don't just recklessly whiff attacks to give those opportunities.

When Ike approaches from the ground he isn't just haplessly waddling toward opponents trying to grab people, you're alternating between the air and ground, constantly threatening an aerial approach as well as a grounded one. With how flexible Ike's jab and d-tilt are, he basically creates a moving wall where opponents either have to roll past him or approach in the air to break through it, both of which Ike has tools to retaliate against. Or they just do nothing and let Ike control the stage which is where he's most comfortable.

It's true that Ike's grab range and traction aren't very good, but that's where conditioning comes into play. The more your opponent shields, the easier it becomes to get grabs. For instance when you're poking someone's shield with aerials, they get accustomed to ducking in shield and retaliating afterwards, so instead of hitting their shield with an aerial, you fast fall land and grab them, a tomahawk basically.