Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Krysco]

Welp, once Smash 5 comes out, I'll be done hanging around here. Sm4sh is my least favourite entry in the series and I lost interest in seeing the meta evolve thanks to Bayo and Cloud and all the drama surrounding them. Mostly stuck around to give me something to do during breaks but I've been skimming past a lot of posts as of late. I might see about posting here a few more times with stuff from the old threads but that'll probably be it. Not that I expect anyone to care since I'm not a very knowledged poster but this post at least informs others about the project.

 

[conTAgi0n]

Does anyone know if there is data compiled somewhere on the ledge snapping range for each character? I don't think it's the same for every character, but I don't know that I've ever seen this info anywhere. Forgive me if it's a dumb question.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I've seen an image gallery floating around on Twitter. No clue where it is now. If someone finds it, it may need to be stored somewhere. Actually wait, I'm thinking of the ledge grab image gallery.

I think the new mobile smash site that has gifs for all of the roster's moves may have it. I recently saw it referenced in that Cloud Killer video. The name escapes me now, but I have should have a link to the site on my phone somewhere.

...

Found it. Try googling react app or struz smash move viewer.

 

[TDK]

Opana confirmed for Hyrule Saga.

And here's the weekend thread since there's two 150+ man tournaments this weekend: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-eglx-2018-and-midwest-mayhem-11-discussion-thread.453427/

EDIT: @adom4 is fully funded for Hyrule Saga! Good luck!

 

[Shaya]

Shaya I think you missed the memo. Which is weird, since I’m pretty sure I saw it on your desk.

I may have also orchestrated the brainwashing of the guy into writing said memo.

My tone was underselling Marth in ways, but not really intending to infer he does not have top qualities.
I'm also biased in another way, I'm pretty good vsing the character, so when someone acts like Marth isn't ridiculously strong, I can relate (although not even remotely coming from a similar perspective, usually).

 

[The_Bookworm]

Opana confirmed for Hyrule Saga.

And here's the weekend thread since there's two 150+ man tournaments this weekend: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-eglx-2018-and-midwest-mayhem-11-discussion-thread.453427/

I suggest that you guys check out that thread.

Anyways, two new C Tiers have shown up. Overclocked II (3/17/18) and Rise 2018 (3/19/18).

 

[Deleted member]

You know, I will probably be a lot less active in here due to Smash for Switch speculation and NintendoZone 6.0 getting a lot more interesting as well. It was nice knowing you guys, keep up the good work!

Thank goodness that Smash for Switch arrived, because that solved or at least toned down the Bayonetta ban and really fast. I think this is the last tier list discussion thread, because Smash for Switch will most likely kill off Smash for Switch's meta entirely.

So back to the Smash 4 meta discussion:

I may have also orchestrated the brainwashing of the guy into writing said memo.

My tone was underselling Marth in ways, but not really intending to infer he does not have top qualities.
I'm also biased in another way, I'm pretty good vsing the character, so when someone acts like Marth isn't ridiculously strong, I can relate (although not even remotely coming from a similar perspective, usually).

I think a lot of people had a tone that undersold Marth, which is understandable. Marth does have some notable flaws indeed. This thread talked about Marth and how he is "overrated" quite a lot at the beginning. I am pretty good with the Marth match-up as well, so I do see people's reasoning for dissing Marth. Marth has been benefiting a lot from MKLeo though. The good attributes I say Marth would have is nice disjointed range and has good mobility with low landing lag. People say Marth is outclassed by Cloud, but I highly disagree. Marth is not outclassed by anyone at almost anything he does.

Got to put this here right now but.....

SMASH SWITCH CONFIRMED THIS IS NOT A DRILL

A blessing from Daddy Sakurai. <3

Goodbye Everyone!

 

[The_Bookworm]

You know, I will probably be a lot less active in here due to Smash for Switch speculation and NintendoZone 6.0 getting a lot more interesting as well. It was nice knowing you guys, keep up the good work!

I am goodness Smash for Switch arrived, because that solved or at least toned down the Bayonetta ban and really fast. I think this is the last tier list discussion thread, because Smash for Switch will most likely kill off Smash for Switch's meta entirely.

So back to the Smash 4 meta discussion:

I think a lot of people had a tone that undersold Marth, which is understandable. Marth does have some notable flaws indeed. This thread talked about Marth and how he is "overrated" quite a lot at the beginning. I am pretty good with the Marth match-up as well, so I do see people's reasoning for dissing Marth. Marth has been benefiting a lot from MKLeo though. The good attributes I say Marth would have is nice disjointed range and has good mobility with low landing lag. People say Marth is outclassed by Cloud, but I highly disagree. Marth is not outclassed by anyone at almost anything he does.

A blessing from Daddy Sakurai. <3

Goodbye Everyone!

A new SSB4 tier list may be released before the smash switch's release.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'm not a fan of players saying Smash 5 will save them if they believe that a lack of problematic match-ups were all that was holding them back. Who's to say that Bayonetta, Cloud, and the rest of the gang that players complain about get buffed in one way or another for Smash 5; even that in itself is speculation.

-

I'll still be here until Smash 5 comes out. I abandon ship with each release. What memo are you guys referring to?

 

[KakuCP9]

Same. I'm staying here until the game comes out, especially since there are still hype tournaments to be held. Plus the most you can do is speculate blindly about the game and exchange wishlists ATM which doesn't appeal to me.

 

[TDK]

I don't want to jump ship on smash 4 Wii U right away, but I'll probably migrate to Smash Switch (Smash 5? Smash 4 Deluxe?) when it comes out. If you give me a week or so to get the character icons down, I'll be fine.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I don't want to jump ship on smash 4 Wii U right away, but I'll probably migrate to Smash Switch (Smash 5? Smash 4 Deluxe?) when it comes out. If you give me a week or so to get the character icons down, I'll be fine.

Same. When the game comes out, I want to quickly compare each character to their SSB4 (or SSBB if Snake, Wolf, or ICs return) counterparts to see if I can determine viability from there. I am sticking SSB4 even after release, but I may be switching gears as well.

 

[Heracr055]

I'm not a fan of players saying Smash 5 will save them if they believe that a lack of problematic match-ups were all that was holding them back. Who's to say that Bayonetta, Cloud, and the rest of the gang that players complain about get buffed in one way or another for Smash 5; even that in itself is speculation.

-

I'll still be here until Smash 5 comes out. I abandon ship with each release. What memo are you guys referring to?

My thoughts exactly. People complaining about Bayo and Cloud now will complain about the next character (s) they perceive as overpowered and advocate for their ban next game.

As for me, I'm going to push my game understanding and execution further in preparation for the next games.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Corrin's bair? Better at killing? Maybe in some raw-numbers only world? Better in general???

The spacing utility is really valuable, making Corrin's bair one of the best in the game. Marth's bair is really good too though. You could make the case that Marth's is better, I suppose, but I don't think it's obviously superior.

Being literally better in some sort of vacuum universe is a shallow way of arguing.

Agreed, which is one of the reasons why I think it's better to compare how characters do in different MUs instead of comparing their moves.

Corrin's up throw is better at KOing, but is it easier for Corrin to get a grab?

It's easier for Marth to get grabs, sure. It's also easier for Corrin to live longer thanks to being a borderline heavyweight.

Pin is an amazing and centralising tool, but holy moly, Dancing Blade is one of the best Smash moves of ALL TIME. They exist in slightly different paradigms where the main difference you seem to focus on is one is overtuned/overloaded while the other is not. Both are bread and butter to them. However, Marth would still function to some extent without Dancing Blade (although prior to them fixing it up his status as a low tier was an easy observation) while Corrin would barely function as a character anymore.

Dragon Lunge is arguably Corrin's best tool and easily one of the best side-Bs in the game. I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make here, though. Sure, remove Dragon Lunge and Corrin will plumet to maybe something like top 30, while Marth likely would be top 20 still without Dancing Blade (maybe). That's hypothetical, but Corrin does still have Dragon Lunge.

I'm not sure Corrin is even; Marth's sword is effectively bigger and his bair and nair push through the zones Corrin's entire game focuses around.

I won't say I'm 100% sure it's even, but I'm 90% sure. It's also worth noting that every notable Corrin and Marth main put it as even.

However, Marth by design naturally excels and overwhelms the FE cast one way or another; Corrin's "brokenness" can surely even that up a bit, but fancy losing footsies, losing in disjoint and not being able to recover? That's what Marth does to basically all the Emblemers.

Last I checked, Marth doesn't actually win +2 against any Fire Emblem character, but just +1 against most of them (not Corrin or Lucina). Guess who else wins +1 against every FE character (aside from Marth and Lucina)? That's right, Corrin.

I would say that Corrin does noticeably (1 step, generally) better in the following (somewhat noteworthy) MUs:
Marth:

She generally does better than Marth vs mid and low tiers as well (Marth generally just wins +1, while Corrin has more +2 wins), with the notable exception of Samus, who Marth is better at dealing with. This is the main reason why I think Corrin is better in practice, because her MU spread is generally better than Marth's.

Top 10 area is a lot more evenly matched, barring Bayonetta, than people tend to give credit for IMO.

Corrin could come out on top in the long run, but Marth will always have more options at his disposal.

Oh, he probably does have more options, a lot of Corrin's gameplay boils down to using her best moves at the right time. Marth has a better grab game and a better edgeguard game. I think Corrin is a bit better than Marth because she has fewer losing MUs and is a bit better against non-top 10 characters (and a bit better against Rosalina and Sonic in 10, at the cost of being a bit worse vs Cloud and Fox). It's not like the gap between the two is huge though. They're pretty close either way (from around 7 to 15 all seem pretty close to me, anyway).

I think Marth should be somewhere around #12-14, with Corrin a bit higher than Marth. It's hard to say for sure since there are so many moving variables, especially since many of the MUs haven't been explored fully (and probably never will be unless Smash Switch is a port).

 

[The_Bookworm]

The spacing utility is really valuable, making Corrin's bair one of the best in the game. Marth's bair is really good too though. You could make the case that Marth's is better, I suppose, but I don't think it's obviously superior.

Agreed, which is one of the reasons why I think it's better to compare how characters do in different MUs instead of comparing their moves.

It's easier for Marth to get grabs, sure. It's also easier for Corrin to live longer thanks to being a borderline heavyweight.

Dragon Lunge is arguably Corrin's best tool and easily one of the best side-Bs in the game. I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make here, though. Sure, remove Dragon Lunge and Corrin will plumet to maybe something like top 30, while Marth likely would be top 20 still without Dancing Blade (maybe). That's hypothetical, but Corrin does still have Dragon Lunge.

I won't say I'm 100% sure it's even, but I'm 90% sure. It's also worth noting that every notable Corrin and Marth main put it as even.

Last I checked, Marth doesn't actually win +2 against any Fire Emblem character, but just +1 against most of them (not Corrin or Lucina). Guess who else wins +1 against every FE character (aside from Marth and Lucina)? That's right, Corrin.

I would say that Corrin does noticeably (1 step, generally) better in the following (somewhat noteworthy) MUs:
Marth:

She generally does better than Marth vs mid and low tiers as well (Marth generally just wins +1, while Corrin has more +2 wins), with the notable exception of Samus, who Marth is better at dealing with. This is the main reason why I think Corrin is better in practice, because her MU spread is generally better than Marth's.

Top 10 area is a lot more evenly matched, barring Bayonetta, than people tend to give credit for IMO.

Oh, he probably does have more options, a lot of Corrin's gameplay boils down to using her best moves at the right time. Marth has a better grab game and a better edgeguard game. I think Corrin is a bit better than Marth because she has fewer losing MUs and is a bit better against non-top 10 characters (and a bit better against Rosalina and Sonic in 10, at the cost of being a bit worse vs Cloud and Fox). It's not like the gap between the two is huge though. They're pretty close either way (from around 7 to 15 all seem pretty close to me, anyway).

I think Marth should be somewhere around #12-14, with Corrin a bit higher than Marth. It's hard to say for sure since there are so many moving variables, especially since many of the MUs haven't been explored fully (and probably never will be unless Smash Switch is a port).

I think Marth does better in the Mega Man matchup. Corrin's tools (such as pin and nuetral B) gets boxed out by pellets.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think Marth does better in the Mega Man matchup. Corrin's tools (such as pin and nuetral B) gets boxed out by pellets.

I think it's +1 for Corrin. Cosmos puts it at even, Ryuga puts it at +2, Frozen puts it at +1. It's not really a MU I've studied all that much though, so you might be right, and Mega Man isn't really all that noteworthy in the meta anyway, so I'll remove him from the list. Perhaps I should remove Bowser and DK as well? Not sure, but not getting counter-picked is nice.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think it's +1 for Corrin. Cosmos puts it at even, Ryuga puts it at +2, Frozen puts it at +1. It's not really a MU I've studied all that much though, so you might be right, and Mega Man isn't really all that noteworthy in the meta anyway, so I'll remove him from the list. Perhaps I should remove Bowser and DK as well? Not sure, but not getting counter-picked is nice.

Mega Man still gets good regional results. Kameme placed 3rd at EVO Japan (although he used some secondaries).

 

[JustCallMeJon]

I think it's +1 for Corrin. Cosmos puts it at even, Ryuga puts it at +2, Frozen puts it at +1. It's not really a MU I've studied all that much though, so you might be right, and Mega Man isn't really all that noteworthy in the meta anyway, so I'll remove him from the list. Perhaps I should remove Bowser and DK as well? Not sure, but not getting counter-picked is nice.

Outside of counterpicks, DK and Bowser have a couple of glaring and sucky MUs. Zss, Rosa, Cloud, and Bayo are super sucky for these two heavyweights.

They have up throw to up air finishers but when you remove them, they struggle.

Still I wouldnt place them super badly, Donkey Kong has results thanks to HIKARU, Konga, and Tweek and Bowser rack some upsets thanks to Nairo.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Outside of counterpicks, DK and Bowser have a couple of glaring and sucky MUs. Zss, Rosa, Cloud, and Bayo are super sucky for these two heavyweights.

They have down throw to up air finishers but when you remove them, they struggle.

Up throw to up air, but yes. They suffer from glaring matchup weaknesses that other characters in their tier have. With both of their results dropping so far in 2018, they might drop as well, especially since some characters ranked below them are obtaining better results. Time will tell.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Up throw to up air, but yes. They suffer from glaring matchup weaknesses that other characters in their tier have. With both of their results dropping so far in 2018, they might drop as well, especially since some characters ranked below them are obtaining better results. Time will tell.

Its only a matter of time before Smash Switch being released this year.

 

[Rizen]

Its only a matter of time before Smash Switch being released this year.

If it isn't delayed like Brawl and Zelda BotW were, several times. Nintendo's not the best at keeping a schedule.


I can see Bowser and DK staying in their current tier but dropping to the lower part of it, under Greninja. Ness should be moved to the upper part.

 

[The_Bookworm]

If it isn't delayed like Brawl and Zelda BotW were, several times. Nintendo's not the best at keeping a schedule.


I can see Bowser and DK staying in their current tier but dropping to the lower part of it, under Greninja. Ness should be moved to the upper part.

I thinking of moving both Mega Man and Ness four places higher from their current position on the official list. Villy and Greninja should switch spots, and DK/Bowser can move below Villy. They don't necessarily need to be ranked next to eachother. That is how I see it anyways.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

Damn, so close. I'm upset lol. Literally just watched this set on stream, but Samsora's Rosalina definitely impressed me. Down against Tweek's Bayonetta with Peach, he pulls out his secondary Rosa and almost goes on to reverse the entire set by taking two games.

He even forced Tweek off Bayonetta and onto Cloud for a last hit last stock situation Game 5 despite Tweek 3-0ing Dabuz in the past in the same MU. The way he handled juggle scenarios, ledge trapping, and neutral as a whole was interesting to see and compare to how other Rosa's have been executing it.

I need to re-watch it though, might be a good set to analyze in regards to what I've talked about before on how I don't believe Rosalina gets shut out in neutral.

@|RK| I remember you mentioned this in an earlier post questioning how Rosa should play it and what happens against a "Bayo like Tweek". Tourney still going on however so it won't be uploaded for a while, unfortunately.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Damn, so close. I'm upset lol. Literally just watched this set on stream, but Samsora's Rosalina definitely impressed me. Down against Tweek's Bayonetta with Peach, he pulls out his secondary Rosa and almost goes on to reverse the entire set by taking two games.

He even forced Tweek off Bayonetta and onto Cloud for a last hit last stock situation Game 5 despite Tweek 3-0ing Dabuz in the past in the same MU. The way he handled juggle scenarios, ledge trapping, and neutral as a whole was interesting to see and compare to how other Rosa's have been executing it.

I need to re-watch it though, might be a good set to analyze in regards to what I've talked about before in regards to how I don't believe Rosalina gets shut out in neutral.

@|RK| I remember you mentioned this in an earlier post questioning how Rosa should play it and what happens against a "Bayo like Tweek". Tourney still going on however so it won't be uploaded for a while, unfortunately.

Both players are insane.

 

[TDK]

Midwest Mayhem 11: European Tour (288 Entrants) (Midwest)

1st: Dabuz
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Captain Zack
5th: Sinnyboo242
5th: S1
7th: Locus
7th: Griffith
9th: Sells
9th: Ned
9th: Skorpio
9th: Glutonny
13th: PowPow
13th: Midnight
13th: IxisNagus
13th: Marcbri

 

[Rizen]

Midwest Mayhem 11: European Tour (288 Entrants) (Midwest)

1st: Dabuz
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Captain Zack
5th: Sinnyboo242
5th: S1
7th: Locus
7th: Griffith
9th: Sells
9th: Ned
9th: Skorpio
9th: Glutonny
13th: PowPow
13th: Midnight
13th: IxisNagus
13th: Marcbri

Wow, Zinoto placing higher than Leo. Good for him. He and MVD give Diddy hope of a top 8 presence at large events. Also Skorpio snuck Robin in there.

Where did this take place exactly?

 

[The-Technique]

And people doubted Diddy's viability after Zero retired, and now Zinoto beat the arguable #1 In the world in a dominant fashion. Great tournament all around.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Midwest Mayhem 11: European Tour (288 Entrants) (Midwest)

1st: Dabuz
2nd: Zinoto
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Captain Zack
5th: Sinnyboo242
5th: S1
7th: Locus
7th: Griffith
9th: Sells
9th: Ned
9th: Skorpio
9th: Glutonny
13th: PowPow
13th: Midnight
13th: IxisNagus
13th: Marcbri

Pretty sad that there are so many European team kills (QuiK vs Ixis, S1 vs Gluttony) that there are only 2 European players placing top 8 (S1 and Griffith).

Otherwise, the Europeans did really well in this tournament despite people calling them the weakest region. S1 did great in Midwest Mayhem and nearly took down CaptainZack twice, and Gluttony made the unthinkable by beating DarkShad in a reverse 3-0. I am happy that Ixis hugged S1 after his last battle because, not only Ixis is a friend of S1 and he is proud of him, but the Europeans are proud of him and themselves as well. They know they can do it, they know that have the potential to place well, they know they have the potential to beat top players well. As long the Europeans stick together as a region and show confidence that they can do it, they have the potential to be the best. That is the magic of confidence and hopefulness from the Europeans and I am proud of them.

 

[Lord Dio]

Europe showing up. Lowest placing player got 17th, highest placing play got 5. Dang.
Also very curious as to how this will impact people's opinions of wario, 'specially gluttony's.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Europe showing up. Lowest placing player got 17th, highest placing play got 5. Dang.
Also very curious as to how this will impact people's opinions of wario, 'specially gluttony's.

Actually 49th at lowest, Izaw. He is a Swedish Link player. You know from the Art of Smash videos.

Pretty Happy for Gluttony taking Wario pretty far in a major, even though it is a B-Tier. Also very happy for S1 showing Ness once again that Ness is still viable and can place well at majors.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Here is the list of Europeans' placings in Midwest Mayhem 11:

5th: S1
7th: Griffith
9th: Gluttony
13th: Ixis
13th: Marcbri
17th: quiK
33rd: Patrino
49th: Izaw

Highest European Player Placing: S1 at 5th. Lowest European Player Placing: Izaw at 49th.

 

[Frihetsanka]

It's worth mentioning that Izaw was not active enough in Sweden to get ranked on the Swedish PR this season. There are arguably several better players in Sweden alone (although Izaw is, perhaps, more notable, since he creates somewhat popular YouTube videos). S1's placing is quite notable, although he was lucky and didn't have to run into any Rosalina's or Corrin's (Cosmos couldn't make it due to car pool trouble). Ness is not a terrible character, although he does have some rather unfortunate -2 MUs against fairly common characters. Luckily for him, his worst MU (according to the Ness Discord), Corrin, isn't super common. He still struggles quite a bit versus characters like Rosalina, Marth, and Cloud, and has a bunch of stray -1 MUs as well. Still, with some bracket luck a skilled Ness player can do quite well.

Wario is not that good, but Glutonny is. If Wario gets notable buffs in Smash 4 I could see Glutonny making PGR (if he travels enough, anyway).

 

[Ilikebugs]

Cagt also got 65th so thats something

 

[TDK]

Where did this take place exactly?

Chicago.

EGLX 2018 (172 Entrants) (Ontario)

1st: Tweek
2nd: WaDi
3rd: ESAM
4th: Mistake
5th: Lima
5th: Ally
7th: Samsora
7th: ANTi
9th: Mr. R
9th: Larry Lurr
9th: Smokk
9th: MVD
13th: LetsTickle
13th: Venom
13th: K9Sbruce
13th: THUNDER

Tweek went Cloud for exactly 1 game, vs Samsora. He's seeming to become a Bayo main now.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Tweek went Cloud for exactly 1 game, vs Samsora. He's seeming to become a Bayo main now.

It makes sense to primarily play characters you want to practice at smaller events, although yes, it is a possibility. It seems more likely that Bayonetta returns for Smash 5 than Cloud, after all, and most players (even top players) struggle to counter-play Bayo properly.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

It's worth mentioning that Izaw was not active enough in Sweden to get ranked on the Swedish PR this season. There are arguably several better players in Sweden alone (although Izaw is, perhaps, more notable, since he creates somewhat popular YouTube videos). S1's placing is quite notable, although he was lucky and didn't have to run into any Rosalina's or Corrin's (Cosmos couldn't make it due to car pool trouble). Ness is not a terrible character, although he does have some rather unfortunate -2 MUs against fairly common characters. Luckily for him, his worst MU (according to the Ness Discord), Corrin, isn't super common. He still struggles quite a bit versus characters like Rosalina, Marth, and Cloud, and has a bunch of stray -1 MUs as well. Still, with some bracket luck a skilled Ness player can do quite well.

S1 is a bit lucky but he also have Cloud as a secondary to take down -2 MUs such as Corrin and Rosa.

Not in topic but S1 is very great against Sheiks thanks to training with Mr. R. He 2-0 sinnyboo and 3-1 big_mak. In Europe, he defeated Ho and Light. He even took few games against Mr. R too.

 

[The_Bookworm]

S1 is a bit lucky but he also have Cloud as a secondary to take down -2 MUs such as Corrin and Rosa.

Not in topic but S1 is very great against Sheiks thanks to training with Mr. R. He 2-0 sinnyboo and 3-1 big_mak. In Europe, he defeated Ho and Light. He even took few games against Mr. R too.

Those pocket Clouds though.

EGLX seems like a Frostbite repeat considering that three Bayos made it top 8 again. Granted that Leo and Dabuz was at Midwest, but I can definitely see more backlash from the community. In my eyes, this shouldn't be a surprise. She is the best character in the game for a reason (plus the Bayo players this weekend were El Fuego), and she lacked a lot of tournament wins for being the best / broken character, especially in comparison to Melee Fox and Brawl MK.

Am I the only one who doesn't mind watching / playing Bayo (unless it a Sonic-campy Bayo)?

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I managed to see Locus use SDI or at least the commentators talked about it, so I assumed he did since I could not tell. If so, that is great to know that some players are making progress.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Those pocket Clouds though.

Gonna put this in...I'm sorry...

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I'm actually surprised that the meme and talks of pocket Cloud has died down. We used to see those everywhere to the point where some players meme'd that they do not believe that ANYONE does not have a pocket Cloud. Now I guess this is replaced by Bayonetta. I was really surprised when I was going through VODS of a tourney from a few months ago that had Locus as Bayonetta in the thumbnail. I was disappointed, but players do what they feel is necessary to stay in bracket. Yesterday, I saw Locus on stream using Bayonetta, and the commentators were talking about it as if it was normal which was odd to me, but I'm glad that it is working for him. For a minute, I was worried that he was going to drop Ryu for Bayonetta