Still, the fact that people think Marth isn't top tier is surprising.
Not really. People confused MkLeo's skill with Marth being a top tier. Marth is a very solid high tier character (somewhere around #12-14, I'd say) with a reasonable MU chart, but he has several losing MUs and doesn't really do all that well against any top 10 character. Pugwest had Marth with 10 losing MUs, MkLeo 10, Mr. E 14, and false 2. Marth, as a character, seems to lack that little something extra to make him truly, truly scary. Don't get me wrong, he's still a good character, but characters like Mewtwo and Corrin have more "stupid tools", like Mewtwo's fair or Corrin's pin.
Marth is a very skill-based character, you need to have good spacing skills to work with him, as well as having a good microspacing game as well.
Agreed. I'd imagine most players would be better off picking Lucina. Even Mr. E, a top level Marth player, seems to prefer Lucina in many MUs (then again, Lucina
is somewhat better than Marth in some MUs).
Marth, unlike Corrin, has tippers on everything, leading to Marth having overall better killpower.
Corrin's up-air, bair, neutral-B, up-throw, and side-B are all better than Marth's. In general, I'd say Corrin has a somewhat easier time killing than Marth, though Marth does have some pretty good options (like jab to f-tilt, or side-B near the ledge, or backair, or tipper f-smash).
This also makes Marth a good counter-pick against other swordsmen, as they fight in his favorite range.
He goes even with Corrin and goes even or slightly loses against Cloud. It's not bad, but it's not exactly "good counter-pick".
Corrin does do better at close range, but Marth is faster, has a better recovery (Corrin's recovery is actual garbage, no horizontal recovery aside from Pin, and Up-B covers half the distance of Marth's, Marth's also hits through the stage), and kills much earlier (Tipper nair at ledge with Marth at 70% rage kills at ~60-80%).
Marth "kills much earlier"? I'm not sure if I really agree there. Anyway, it's true that Marth is faster, but Corrin is heavier. "no horizontal recovery", are you forgetting that Corrin can use her bair to assist her recovery, if needed? And her up-B does travel quite a bit if you angle it. Corrin's can also hit through the stage for some stages (like Battlefield) if you angle it correctly.
Corrin, while the character is good, relies heavily on stage control, and Corrin's safest option, that being Pin, often sees Corrin giving stage control to the opponent.
There's some risk, but the reward can be pretty good if you use it properly. In some MUs (like Fox or Captain Falcon) pin is weaker in general, but against most of the cast it's a very important tool (and it's still used vs fast characters, just not as often).
Corrin isn't better than Marth, they are around the same in terms of power.
Corrin loses 3-4 MUs and might win against Mario and/or Rosalina. Marth likely loses more than that, doesn't do as well against mid tiers or low tiers as Corrin does, and doesn't really beat any top tier character (unless you consider Mario a top tier, I suppose). In practice, Corrin has a better MU spread against relevant character than Marth, which means that Corrin should be higher on the tier list (and it makes her a better meta-pick).
And then there's Cloud who is better than both Corrin and Marth for most MUs (with a few exceptions, like Pikachu). The playerbases for Corrin and Marth likely suffered
A player can chase Kamui during the kick, while they are unable to act out of it.
When I see Kamui players on stream, I rarely see the retreat option punished since we tend to say it is safe on shield. Which has lead to players saying "that there is nothing they can do vs. Dragon Lunge since the move is safe, so Kamui can spam it all day", hence some players began to call then brain-dead or noon-friendly.
If this opinion is not true, then my information is outdated. I have not watched much of Kamui recently besides a few of Cosmo's sets.
It's character-specific. Some characters can punish kick-away, some can't.
I would say slowly as the meta evolves, Marth sinks into high tier, being tied with Lucina. Marth is better than Corrin indeed though, and MKLeo has used Marth quite a lot actually recently. More than Cloud even.
MkLeo actually stated that he believes that Corrin is better than Marth. I'm inclined to agree with him (though I came to that conclusion before he tweeted it, mostly from studying various MUs and seeing that Corrin does better in many relevant matchups and has a better MU spread than Marth does). I highly doubt Marth will drop deeper than, say, #14, though.
Who does have good landing options? Just curious.
Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Bayonetta.
I was asked, some time ago, to explain why I think Corrin does better than Marth in the following three MUs: Sonic, Mewtwo, and Rosalina. I suppose I'll just post what I have thus far and elaborate more if needed. I should note that I'm generally more knowledgeable about Corrin than Marth (she is, after all, my main).
@Minordeth
Sonic
: This is a pretty good MU for Corrin. It's possible that she has a slight advantage, though I think it's most likely even. Sonic has some issues playing his game against Corrin, and landing can also be hard since Corrin has good anti-landing tools, and pin is a really good tool in this MU in general (though Sonic can punish kick-away to some extent, since he's really fast). Her disjoints are pretty good against Sonic in general, too. Corrin has an easier time to secure KOs than Sonic, which also helps. Oh, and it's also worth mentioning that Corrin has an easier time to combo Sonic than Marth does, which means that she likely will have to play neutral less than Marth will, which is good, since Sonic's neutral is really, really good. DFS can also be used in some situations to trade with (or even beat) spin dash, which means that Sonic has to be careful when approaching.
Sonic vs Marth is considered slight disadvantage for Marth (and Lucina might be a little better at the MU, since it can be hard for Marth to consistently land tippers). Many consider Sonic Marth's worst MU. It also seems likely to me that Marth's playstyle, which often resolves around stray hits, is better for Sonic since it means they'll reset to neutral more often, while Corrin tends to get longer strings of aerials.
Mewtwo
: Shadow Ball is really useful for Mewtwo in this MU, since he can use it to force Corrin to approach and use it to punish landings and even occasionally get some KOs with it. Corrin has better anti-air frametrap options than Marth does, making it easier for Corrin to punish Mewtwo's landing options (for instance, nair deals with his airdodge pretty well). Counter can also be a good option for hard reads against Shadow Ball. Oh yeah, and both pin and up-air are incredibly good for killing Mewtwo, due to him being so light. Back-air can also KO Mewtwo fairly early. Her up-throw being stronger than Marth's also helps; in a game against Abadango, MkLeo gets a grab at 127% (with his Corrin being at 42%) and gets the KO (on Town & City). I think this MU is likely even for Corrin (though on the hard side, probably one of the hardest even MUs).
For Marth, I think it's either slight disadvantage or even. This MU is worse for Marth than it is for Corrin (the MU might be a bit better for Lucina, actually). It's somewhat hard for Marth to space tippers against Mewtwo due to Mewtwo's movement options (including a frame 2 airdodge) and the fact that Mewtwo either gets really close to Marth or stays far away. Marth is also 8 units lighter than Corrin (thus often dying earlier) and it's arguably easier for Mewtwo to edgeguard Marth, too.
Rosalina
: I think Corrin wins this MU, but it could be even. Corrin has several good tools in this MU. She's really good at killing Luma with bair and pin. She can juggle Rosa quite well and kill her early. Rosa, however, has two really, really good moves in this MU: Up-air and down-air. Up-air has the ”Luma” factor and can KO at like 50% (against many characters, I should add, not just Corrin), and it's really hard for Corrin to land vs Rosa. Then again, it's really hard for Marth to land against Rosa as well. Rosa's down-air can gimp Corrin quite easily, which can be a problem. In a best of 5 with a top level Rosa, it's quite likely that you'll see at least one gimp from Rosa. Still, I think Corrin's tools are enough to make it slight advantage for her, although many believe it's even. It's even or slight advantage for Corrin.
Marth, on the other hand, has much more trouble dealing with Luma. He doesn't have Dragon Lunge or Corrin's bair, which means approaching Rosa can be trouble (especially with Luma walling him out). His up-air isn't as good at killing as Corrin's, and securing the KO can be hard at times (tipper f-smash kills early, but it can be hard to get the spacing right if Luma is around). Overall, this seems like a slight disadvantage or even for Marth, which is worse than Corrin, who either wins or goes even.
