Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Rizen]

Ness vs Fox, from what I seen, in low-level/mid-level of play, Ness beats Fox but the tables has turned a bit when it comes top level of play. IMO that is an dead even Matchup. It is wildly debated whether Fox or Ness will take advantage in extreme cases.

For Ness: . Fox is combo food for Ness since he is light-weight, fast-faller, and has poor air speed. Ness can quickly take massive damage against the uncareful Fox in ease because of this. Ness can simply do down throw to fair all over Fox repeatedly or throw Fox upwards and juggle him with Ness's PK Thunders, giving Fox massive damage. Fox being light helps Ness to kill Fox much earlier than other characters with his raw kill power (Uair and B-Throws are infamous examples). Ness's biggest advantage against Fox is when Fox is offstage. When Fox is at offstage, Fox will do two ways: Up-B or Side-B. Side-B can be easily interrupted by Ness's aerials, PK Fire, and PK Thunder and Up-B can be snuffed by dair, PK Fire, or Bair since Ness has good aerial mobility. Because of this, Ness contest well against Fox in the air and offstage.

For Fox: . Fox can do well against Ness. Fox is one of the fastest characters in the game and Ness is pretty much below average in the ground. Ness couldn't contest that well in the ground against Fox because of his slow mobility. Similar to how Ness can juggle Fox pretty well in the air, Fox can juggle Ness in the air by his repeated uair strings and up tilts strings. Ness is floaty character. This means that, although Ness has better aerial mobility than Luigi and Ness can drift, Ness can get stuck by Fox heavy combos and can be frame trapped. Because of this, Ness's floatiness and below average ground speed allows Fox to contest Ness on the ground pretty well (Unless Ness grabs Fox, then Fox can have trouble). Comparing to Ness edgeguarding Fox, Fox can edgeguard Ness...but not very effectively. Fox can go offstage and hit Ness's PKT2 but it is too risky since Fox falls like a rock (He has the fastest fall speed compared to any other character in the game). So Fox must rely on his up tilts and his down smash to edgeguard Ness...which can be a hit or miss at times.

TLDR, Ness can beat Fox well since he can easily cripple Fox's glass-cannon mobility and recovery further by his good aerial mobility, Fox can beat Ness well since Ness is floaty and has a below-average ground mobility. Both can juggle each other hard by their powerful uair strings and both can be abused each either because of slow mobility (Ness) or glass-cannon mobility (Fox). Either way, while Ness can destroy Fox, Fox can destroy Ness.

FOW vs Larry Lurr at Civil War: and S1 vs Wusi at CCE:R. These videos shows how both Fox and Ness can beat each other up hard from one another.

I've noticed Ness has some MUs that are better than many top tiers, like Pikachu. Ness' Fair and DA are hard to contest, even for a sword character like Link. The quick rising of Ness' jump and long hitbubble duration of Fair make a great defensive wall. He's a good aerial fighter and has Bthrow on the ground. Like I said a few pages ago imo Ness should be above DK.

Having a scary throw paired with a good grab is huge in this, and every, smash game. A problem Link has is he can't tomahawk, although Nair is great for landings. He gets 2-4 frames of lag just from landing then his jab is f7 and grab f12. I do think slow grabs considerably hold characters like Link, ZSS and Lucas back although they do have some options normal grabs lack due to tether range. Link's so slow he would have a hard time landing a normal grab, like Robin, but ZSS and Lucas would benefit from one.

Many people will disagree but I'd rank Lucas behind Bowser and DK and Ness above them, in large part for this reason. I also think Lucas is weaker to opponents who can avoid playing his game by platform camping or forcing him to approach. Lucas' superior recovery isn't enough in this game of early stage kills from ding dongs and limit CS. Getting off the ledge is bigger than getting to it in terms of disadvantage.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

I've noticed Ness has some MUs that are better than many top tiers, like Pikachu. Ness' Fair and DA are hard to contest, even for a sword character like Link. The quick rising of Ness' jump and long hitbubble duration of Fair make a great defensive wall. He's a good aerial fighter and has Bthrow on the ground. Like I said a few pages ago imo Ness should be above DK.

Having a scary throw paired with a good grab is huge in this, and every, smash game. A problem Link has is he can't tomahawk, although Nair is great for landings. He gets 2-4 frames of lag just from landing then his jab is f7 and grab f12. I do think slow grabs considerably hold characters like Link, ZSS and Lucas back although they do have some options normal grabs lack due to tether range. Link's so slow he would have a hard time landing a normal grab, like Robin, but ZSS and Lucas would benefit from one.

Many people will disagree but I'd rank Lucas behind Bowser and DK and Ness above them, in large part for this reason. I also think Lucas is weaker to opponents who can avoid playing his game by platform camping or forcing him to approach. Lucas' superior recovery isn't enough in this game of early stage kills from ding dongs and limit CS. Getting off the ledge is bigger than getting to it in terms of disadvantage.

Lucas does have a down throw to up air combo like DK and Bowser.

I agree somewhat that he has SOME advantages against some of the higher tier characters (Outside of C Tier) like Pika and Lucario. However, MU against most of them from Ness are either even (Fox/ZSS/Luigi/Ryu etc.) slight losses (Peach/Mewtwo/Diddy/Bayo etc.), or pretty bad (Marth/Corrin/Rosa/Cloud etc.).

Ness deals with a couple of MUs against Top Tier a bit better in comparison to some or most high or mid characters like Bowser and DK who both have super glaring MUs. Also, Ness is one of the few mid tier to do well against Fox unlike most high/mid tier characters. His slight losses are not that bad tho imo. But he has some BAD matchups.

Ness as solo viable can be tough (Tough MUs are against his favor), but it is possible (TGG placed 5th at Royal Flush, Gackt placed 17th at TBH 7 FOW placed 13th at Nairo Saga all solo Ness). His results and representation is consistent according to Das Koopa as he is consistenty placed 25th-16th throughout 2017 & 2018.

I do see him placed higher than 28, but it is super tough to go through top 20. The top 20 are super good: they have less glaring match-ups, more representation and results, and can handle top tiers pretty well to the point that they can even beat top tiers. So 23-32 Is the best estimate of Ness placement but placing him higher than that range is a bit of a stretch, especially dealing with some bad MUs and the negative bias in the Smash Community.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

Fox has strong burst options and massive ground mobility. I don’t think Cloud can be as safe or dominant against Fox as he can against most of the cast. Fox, like Sheik, can actually get in. Some of Cloud’s best aerials are not actually that safe on shield without good spacing, and it’s not hard for Fox to get in, and under.

Yea I can agree with this. All of Fox's MUs are plenty doable regardless, this one included. Even if Cloud is well spaced, getting perfect shielded against someone as fast as Fox both in mobility & frame data can easily get him punished when you take in account the landing lag of his aerials. Often times it comes down to just their punish games alone and like you said, Cloud especially with limit can be combo food for Fox.

"Fox has been, "You better not make too many mistakes!" since Melee. Him being a combo dummy in training mode does little to sway me. Like, every character looks like they have a baller advantage state against Fox. It's Fox."

This is true. In regards to Esam's training mode combos, I have seen him replicate them perfectly fine in bracket with consistency and they are pretty devastating on Fox at various % ranges, but as you pointed out, Pikachu is definitely far from the only character who can do this kind of stuff to him.

"He can maneuver around Rosa fairly well. Rosa is not super good at cross ups, as the backhit of Dsmash is frame 17, IIRC. Fox's airspeed is not the best, but his air acceleration is good, consistent with his burst game, and his jumpsquat is frame 4 which compounds Nair and Bair being stupid safe."

Yea I hear you. I was initially under the mindset that Rosalina naturally and constantly forcing Fox off the ground to deal with luma could slow him down to a more manageable level because of his air-speed but I might have over-stated it to an extent. It's not too bad when you consider how fast he can fall back to the ground and he still has strong aerials to cover himself.



Good discussion. This talk only seemed to reinforce my love/hate relationship for this character cause good lord is he actually insane lol. The natural state of Fox being combo food, light, and having an exploitable disadvantage as a whole is something Fox always has to deal with and it can honestly be stressful when you don't play MUs correctly or your movement isn't on point among other things. It's easy to lose to a lot of things or characters he shouldn't if you aren't careful or know what you need to do to make it more doable. Sometimes things just happen. But that reminds me of a tweet I saw earlier. I for one fully welcome a Fox who can combine all the various playstyles and tricks I see different top foxes utilize seamlessly:

Pro Tip #39 - Character Potential

This one is a bit of tough love for those of you that are frustrated with specific matchups or your results. You have to be able to push your character's strengths, even if they aren't the strengths that come naturally to you. pic.twitter.com/NByvNeCX1m

— Ultimate ProTips (@SsbProTips) March 3, 2018

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Pro Tip #39 - Character Potential

This one is a bit of tough love for those of you that are frustrated with specific matchups or your results. You have to be able to push your character's strengths, even if they aren't the strengths that come naturally to you. pic.twitter.com/NByvNeCX1m

— Ultimate ProTips (@SsbProTips) March 3, 2018

Looks like my character's community could use some of this.

 

[Minordeth]

Quick note:

I see this popular mindset that is basically like, “Oh no, my opponent got a lead! I better ‘approach’”, where approaching means going toward them.

First, forcing an approach is only as powerful as the context it is being used in. If your opponent has a ten percent lead, and there are five and a half minutes left in the game, and they want to run to a platform to camp, they totally can.

But you don’t actually have to do anything. Stand there, for God’s sake. At that point, it’s a battle of wills more than anything else. They have to demonstrate that they are actually are committed to their current tactic. There is no rule that says “you better get that lead back as soon as possible!” when you are down.

The vast majority of top players pay lip service to this concept, but rush in when they are down (or up?) ten percent.

A Smash 4 lead is a stock up until the final minute-ish of the game. Then you can worry about percent.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Quick note:

I see this popular mindset that is basically like, “Oh no, my opponent got a lead! I better ‘approach’”, where approaching means going toward them.

First, forcing an approach is only as powerful as the context it is being used in. If your opponent has a ten percent lead, and there are five and a half minutes left in the game, and they want to run to a platform to camp, they totally can.

But you don’t actually have to do anything. Stand there, for God’s sake. At that point, it’s a battle of wills more than anything else. They have to demonstrate that they are actually are committed to their current tactic. There is no rule that says “you better get that lead back as soon as possible!” when you are down.

The vast majority of top players pay lip service to this concept, but rush in when they are down (or up?) ten percent.

A Smash 4 lead is a stock up until the final minute-ish of the game. Then you can worry about percent.

I don't know why this was never figured out before. Are Sm4sh players really that paranoid when it comes to situations like this?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Lucas does have a down throw to up air combo like DK and Bowser.

I agree somewhat that he has SOME advantages against some of the higher tier characters (Outside of C Tier) like Pika and Lucario. However, MU against most of them from Ness are either even (Fox/ZSS/Luigi/Ryu etc.) slight losses (Peach/Mewtwo/Diddy/Bayo etc.), or pretty bad (Marth/Corrin/Rosa/Cloud etc.).

Ness deals with a couple of MUs against Top Tier a bit better in comparison to some or most high or mid characters like Bowser and DK who both have super glaring MUs. Also, Ness is one of the few mid tier to do well against Fox unlike most high/mid tier characters. His slight losses are not that bad tho imo. But he has some BAD matchups.

Ness as solo viable can be tough (Tough MUs are against his favor), but it is possible (TGG placed 5th at Royal Flush, Gackt placed 17th at TBH 7 FOW placed 13th at Nairo Saga all solo Ness). His results and representation is consistent according to Das Koopa as he is consistenty placed 25th-16th throughout 2017 & 2018.

I do see him placed higher than 28, but it is super tough to go through top 20. The top 20 are super good: they have less glaring match-ups, more representation and results, and can handle top tiers pretty well to the point that they can even beat top tiers. So 23-32 Is the best estimate of Ness placement but placing him higher than that range is a bit of a stretch, especially dealing with some bad MUs and the negative bias in the Smash Community.

Ditto.

Tbh, Lucas is MUCH more comparable in terms of strengths, weaknesses, and playstyle, to fellow mid tier characters ROB and Robin. All three of these characters specialize in zoning, and have good grab combos off of down throw (with all three having a kill confirm and a kill throw). Both zoning and grabbing with these three characters also has a noticeable flaw to hold them back.

 

[WiFi]

Are there any characters you think are -2 or -3 against Fox (or rather how many would you say there are)?

Not too many. I don't really know many of the low tier matchups. I can say that Fox should technically destroy DK and Bowser, but they can kill him in three grabs, which is really annoying for Fox. Charizard gets pretty badly beaten by Fox, but he can also very easily kill Fox. Fox does have +2 matchups against Lucario and the zoners, being a zone-breaker, but the Lucas matchup is more annoying than the other zoners. Corrin is another -2 matchup as of now, but I think it is a -1 matchup. Pac-Man is definitely one the more "free" matchups Fox has, because Fox can zoom up to Pac-Man before he can do Fruit stuff, and destroys Pac-Man at all ranges. I actually agree with Larry's MU chart, just look at the advantages Fox has and he beats them either -2 or -3. Fox also destroys Megaman for similar reasons that Sheik does. The Fox matchups are all very weird, because they really depend on the skill level of the players. Since you main Yoshi, and I know the Yoshi matchup well, I can safely agree with Larry that its an even or +1 matchup in Fox's favor. Yoshi is one of the few characters with the frame data to match Fox, and that alone makes the matchup very even. Fox can still easily vortex Yoshi, but he has to be more careful in approaching. This is from my level of play, I don't really see how the matchup changes at higher levels.


Also, since I know other people get annoyed when I say destroy, I'm just a dramatic person, don't take it too seriously. It just means that it is a very easy matchup for Fox to win.

Please tell me more about Bayonetta being able to run away from Fox.

Also please don't double post.

Didn't mean to double post. I actually pressed the wrong key by accident, and posted the edit as it's own comment.
Bayonetta can't run away though, don't know where I was going with that. Bayonetta beats Fox for different reasons, but unlike Larry, I don't think its -2 anymore, but rather a -1 matchup. I don't think Fox has anything worse than a -1 matchup.

Edit: Fox is a very stressful character to play, along the lines of Sheik, due to even one mistake meaning the end of one's stock. People who don't use all of Fox's tools don't necessarily have to, but seeing all top Fox players going all hyper-aggressive is really annoying, considering Fox doesn't have to have an aggressive playstyle. Lasers are better than people think, even with the nerfs it obtained going into SSB4.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

What nerfs did Fox's Blaster get?

As for not approaching when the opponent has a lead, it has been figured out. It's just pushed aside or forgotten in the heat of the moment. In analysis or conversations when players talk about one having the lead over the other, we default to saying that the player who is behind has no other option but to approach.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

What nerfs did Fox's Blaster get?

Obviously the fact that firing lasers no longer has auto-cancelled landing lag (Fox now goes through the whole animation of putting his gun back into his holster).

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

What nerfs did Fox's Blaster get?

As for not approaching when the opponent has a lead, it has been figured out. It's just pushed aside or forgotten in the heat of the moment. In analysis or conversations when players talk about one having the lead over the other, we default to saying that the player who is behind has no other option but to approach.

Well for one it is slower and has a FAF of 40 if you want to input another action. The main nerfs were the loss of the auto cancel upon landing, the loss of wave dashing and the loss of momentum being carried when you jump.

Since it doesn't auto cancel on landing he's stuck in lag while the opponent is able to close space since they don't flinch from lasers. The fact he can't wavedash anymore means he can use lasers as he's retreating (or approaching) in combination with short hops that allows him to shoot lasers more freely and safely and again the auto cancel on landing lets him have a ton of options he can take after shooting a laser.

He can't do any of this in Smash 4, when he commits to laser he's commit to giving up stage and putting him at a risk of the opponent cornering him. His options after lasering are much more limited making it more often dangerous for him to use them except from a longer distance (which is more reactable for the opponent). Smash 4 lasers aren't gutted or useless now and Fox players should definitely use them more however giving the options they have after firing them I can see why many Fox players are more conservative with them. You aren't going to find a lot of opportunities to just safely pop lasers at your opponent in smash 4 and it be the optimal option even against Ganondorf.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Well for one it is slower and has a FAF of 40 if you want to input another action. The main nerfs were the loss of the auto cancel upon landing, the loss of wave dashing and the loss of momentum being carried when you jump.

Since it doesn't auto cancel on landing he's stuck in lag while the opponent is able to close space since they don't flinch from lasers. The fact he can't wavedash anymore means he can use lasers as he's retreating (or approaching) in combination with short hops that allows him to shoot lasers more freely and safely and again the auto cancel on landing lets him have a ton of options he can take after shooting a laser.

He can't do any of this in Smash 4, when he commits to laser he's commit to giving up stage and putting him at a risk of the opponent cornering him. His options after lasering are much more limited making it more often dangerous for him to use them except from a longer distance (which is more reactable for the opponent). Smash 4 lasers aren't gutted or useless now and Fox players should definitely use them more however giving the options they have after firing them I can see why many Fox players are more conservative with them. You aren't going to find a lot of opportunities to just safely pop lasers at your opponent in smash 4 and it be the optimal option even against Ganondorf.

Unfortunately, while this nerf is an inconvenience for Fox, it pretty much plucked Falco down. His lasers was the backbone of the character in Melee and Brawl because without it, he has no way to reliably forcing approaches and he has to deal with his own slow movement speed.

 

[Lukingordex]

Lucas does have a down throw to up air combo like DK and Bowser.

I agree somewhat that he has SOME advantages against some of the higher tier characters (Outside of C Tier) like Pika and Lucario. However, MU against most of them from Ness are either even (Fox/ZSS/Luigi/Ryu etc.) slight losses (Peach/Mewtwo/Diddy/Bayo etc.), or pretty bad (Marth/Corrin/Rosa/Cloud etc.).

Ness deals with a couple of MUs against Top Tier a bit better in comparison to some or most high or mid characters like Bowser and DK who both have super glaring MUs. Also, Ness is one of the few mid tier to do well against Fox unlike most high/mid tier characters. His slight losses are not that bad tho imo. But he has some BAD matchups.

Ness as solo viable can be tough (Tough MUs are against his favor), but it is possible (TGG placed 5th at Royal Flush, Gackt placed 17th at TBH 7 FOW placed 13th at Nairo Saga all solo Ness). His results and representation is consistent according to Das Koopa as he is consistenty placed 25th-16th throughout 2017 & 2018.

I do see him placed higher than 28, but it is super tough to go through top 20. The top 20 are super good: they have less glaring match-ups, more representation and results, and can handle top tiers pretty well to the point that they can even beat top tiers. So 23-32 Is the best estimate of Ness placement but placing him higher than that range is a bit of a stretch, especially dealing with some bad MUs and the negative bias in the Smash Community.

Nowadays i get the impression that Lucas is a better option than Ness for solo-maining specifically because he has an okay MU chart all-around with no terrible loses, while ness has some really bad mus. However, as a counterpick character, Ness is a much better option than Lucas, because he has good number of even mus with the high/top tiers while lucas goes -1 with a lot of them.
In this meta, Lucas seems to be neglected because there are much better options than him to solo-main out there. Ness may have his bad mus, but he'll never lose his usefullness of being a CP character thanks to his good mus against some important characters and the fact you'd probably avoid playing him on his bad mus in this scenario anyway.

 

[Minordeth]

I don't know why this was never figured out before. Are Sm4sh players really that paranoid when it comes to situations like this?

Oh, it’s figured out. It’s just not “fun.”

And I don’t think it’s even so much paranoia, as a compulsion to “do something.” They treat non-engagement/camping/zoning as this thing that needs an immediate/slightly delayed reaction, rather than patience. It’s as if they aren’t “allowed” to do the same thing if they got hit by two bullet art shots or something.

I hear commentators say, “oh, player X got hit, so he has to approach player Y now, which is just what player Y* wants.”

And there’s five minutes on the clock.









*Salem, ofc.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Nowadays i get the impression that Lucas is a better option than Ness for solo-maining specifically because he has an okay MU chart all-around with no terrible loses, while ness has some really bad mus. However, as a counterpick character, Ness is a much better option than Lucas, because he has good number of even mus with the high/top tiers while lucas goes -1 with a lot of them.
In this meta, Lucas seems to be neglected because there are much better options than him to solo-main out there. Ness may have his bad mus, but he'll never lose his usefullness of being a CP character thanks to his good mus against some important characters and the fact you'd probably avoid playing him on his bad mus in this scenario anyway.

The impression came from players who think Lucas is underrated. Lucas's matchups over the top tiers isn't as polarizing, but he struggles against them nevertheless, while he loses against more characters outside of the top 15.
Lucas as a solo main, isn't doing too good in the current meta, which is shown in Das Koopa's chart, and his lack of good peaks throughout 2017. Ness, as a solo main, is doing better, and has been doing better throughout the majority of SSB4's lifespan.

 

[WiFi]

Well for one it is slower and has a FAF of 40 if you want to input another action. The main nerfs were the loss of the auto cancel upon landing, the loss of wave dashing and the loss of momentum being carried when you jump.

Since it doesn't auto cancel on landing he's stuck in lag while the opponent is able to close space since they don't flinch from lasers. The fact he can't wavedash anymore means he can use lasers as he's retreating (or approaching) in combination with short hops that allows him to shoot lasers more freely and safely and again the auto cancel on landing lets him have a ton of options he can take after shooting a laser.

He can't do any of this in Smash 4, when he commits to laser he's commit to giving up stage and putting him at a risk of the opponent cornering him. His options after lasering are much more limited making it more often dangerous for him to use them except from a longer distance (which is more reactable for the opponent). Smash 4 lasers aren't gutted or useless now and Fox players should definitely use them more however giving the options they have after firing them I can see why many Fox players are more conservative with them. You aren't going to find a lot of opportunities to just safely pop lasers at your opponent in smash 4 and it be the optimal option even against Ganondorf.

Even though people say Fox may/may not be top 5 (or even 3), I think that with his old lasers from Melee, Fox could easily be top 3. He would have the best long-range damage output in the game, on top of his already amazing close-quarters game. Auto-Cancel lasers is absolutely fantastic in Melee, and in since the laser have transcendent priority, his Neutral-B would be as good or even better than Sheik's needles. Though Sheik's needles are the best Neutral-B in the game, autocancel lasers could give it a run for its money.

 

[J0eyboi]

Nowadays i get the impression that Lucas is a better option than Ness for solo-maining specifically because he has an okay MU chart all-around with no terrible loses, while ness has some really bad mus. However, as a counterpick character, Ness is a much better option than Lucas, because he has good number of even mus with the high/top tiers while lucas goes -1 with a lot of them.
In this meta, Lucas seems to be neglected because there are much better options than him to solo-main out there. Ness may have his bad mus, but he'll never lose his usefullness of being a CP character thanks to his good mus against some important characters and the fact you'd probably avoid playing him on his bad mus in this scenario anyway.

Who cares? For one, most characters are pretty viable solo mains; a -2 is still extremely winnable, if not exactly fun. People in this community tend to overstate how much -2s impact solo viability because it's not like Hbox is #1 on the Melee PR or anything.

For another, Ness and Lucas still aren't comparable characters, so it would be just as relevant, if not more relevant, to say Pit is a better solo main than Ness for the same reason.

Also, you're getting the idea that Ness is played as a counterpick character from where? I can't think of a single person with a Ness secondary off the top of my head, though I could be extremely wrong on that.

Even though people say Fox may/may not be top 5 (or even 3), I think that with his old lasers from Melee, Fox could easily be top 3. He would have the best long-range damage output in the game, on top of his already amazing close-quarters game. Auto-Cancel lasers is absolutely fantastic in Melee, and in since the laser have transcendent priority, his Neutral-B would be as good or even better than Sheik's needles. Though Sheik's needles are the best Neutral-B in the game, autocancel lasers could give it a run for its money.

And if Puff had her Melee Bair and air accel, she wouldn't be garbage tier. This might surprise you, but it turns out giving a character better tools tends to improve the character's viability.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Who cares? For one, most characters are pretty viable solo mains; a -2 is still extremely winnable, if not exactly fun. People in this community tend to overstate how much -2s impact solo viability because it's not like Hbox is #1 on the Melee PR or anything.

For another, Ness and Lucas still aren't comparable characters, so it would be just as relevant, if not more relevant, to say Pit is a better solo main than Ness for the same reason.

Also, you're getting the idea that Ness is played as a counterpick character from where? I can't think of a single person with a Ness secondary off the top of my head, though I could be extremely wrong on that.

You are right about the Ness vs Lucas debate in the recent meta, Ness and Lucas are different characters in terms of wildly different movesets, playstyle, and MUs. They have their own strengths and weaknesses. They can be dangered if the debate goes too hard but it must go that way.

 

[Rizen]

^This is the competitive impressions thread. We compare all kinds of characters; it doesn't mean we think they're clones or are putting down the worse one. A month ago we were comparing Marth to Corrin, now it's Lucas and Fox to Ness. It's not toxic.

People like the juxtaposition of Ness vs Lucas or DK vs Bowser because they are different. Which style is better in the meta, a defensive more rounded or more aggressive but polarized style?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Bowser and DK results are pretty similar, though they seem to be on the decline lately.

 

[MERPIS]

we were comparing Marth to Corrin

Corrin is better in almost every way, marth and him should switch places,

 

[Deleted member]

Unfortunately, while this nerf is an inconvenience for Fox, it pretty much plucked Falco down. His lasers was the backbone of the character in Melee and Brawl because without it, he has no way to reliably forcing approaches and he has to deal with his own slow movement speed.

I think you also forgot that Falco's back air and down air because a lot less useful. Falco's down air was a great finisher and edge guarding tool because that spike lasted a long time compared to other moves. In Smash 4 it is a lot less powerful and it has more end lag, which makes it only useful for trying to disrespect for "show" at this point.

Falco's back air was replaced with Wolf's back air for some reason. It comes out faster at frame 4, but the range that can help do something like another edgeguard is gone. It does have Falco Brawl's back air had more range than Smash 4 Falco's back air. I would say they nerfed Falco a little too hard. He is considered low tier for a reason, I mean he does have a good air game but his neutral and the overall changes of Smash 4 which removed his combos from Brawl, and that did hurt him.

Falco's lasers are too slow and you can not short-hop auto cancel them, which is not good. That may of been a bad nerf, but there were others that added on to the nerf as well.

 

[ARGHETH]

Corrin is better in almost every way, marth and him should switch places,

Except speed, safe grounded options, and recovery. I love Corrin and all, but I really don't see him over Marth.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think you also forgot that Falco's back air and down air because a lot less useful. Falco's down air was a great finisher and edge guarding tool because that spike lasted a long time compared to other moves. In Smash 4 it is a lot less powerful and it has more end lag, which makes it only useful for trying to disrespect for "show" at this point.

Falco's back air was replaced with Wolf's back air for some reason. It comes out faster at frame 4, but the range that can help do something like another edgeguard is gone. It does have Falco Brawl's back air had more range than Smash 4 Falco's back air. I would say they nerfed Falco a little too hard. He is considered low tier for a reason, I mean he does have a good air game but his neutral and the overall changes of Smash 4 which removed his combos from Brawl, and that did hurt him.

Falco's lasers are too slow and you can not short-hop auto cancel them, which is not good. That may of been a bad nerf, but there were others that added on to the nerf as well.

Yeah, the back air and down air nerf did hit him hard as well.

As I said before, Lucas is MUCH more comparable in terms of strengths, weaknesses, and playstyle, to fellow mid tier characters ROB and Robin. All three of these characters specialize in zoning, and have good grab combos off of down throw (with all three having a kill confirm and a kill throw). Both zoning and grabbing with these three characters also has a noticeable flaw to hold them back.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

^This is the competitive impressions thread. We compare all kinds of characters; it doesn't mean we think they're clones or are putting down the worse one. A month ago we were comparing Marth to Corrin, now it's Lucas and Fox to Ness. It's not toxic.

People like the juxtaposition of Ness vs Lucas or DK vs Bowser because they are different. Which style is better in the meta, a defensive more rounded or more aggressive but polarized style?

Sorry..
I respect Smashboards. It is filled with good discussions and data. I could see arguments come up with good detail and people who defend or agree also give good reason of why they defend or agree.

BUT...
I am just worried of the Ness vs Lucas debate OUTSIDE of Smashboard, such as Twitter or Reddit. They are different than Smashboard because they recieve the most radical opinions and usually believes more bias than fact (Bayonetta bias from Twitter/Reddit is a very good example).When someone compares two characters outside SmashBoard such as Ness vs Lucas, they can use some sort of bias to overpraise or overcriticize them. From this, the character who got criticized hard even though it is a good character, like Ness, can dropped hard because of these said criticism. Instead of figuring out the facts of Ness vs Lucas, they usually criticized the character like Ness for being unviable and praise the character like Lucas for being underrated. Same goes the other way around for Ness and Lucas. I know that it is their opinions, but if that negative and positive opinions, with little to facts and evidence to make it true, spreads to the community, the community will believe in and then it will eventually go so far that it will affect the top players as well. This is what I am worrying about.

 

[WiFi]

^This is the competitive impressions thread. We compare all kinds of characters; it doesn't mean we think they're clones or are putting down the worse one. A month ago we were comparing Marth to Corrin, now it's Lucas and Fox to Ness. It's not toxic.

People like the juxtaposition of Ness vs Lucas or DK vs Bowser because they are different. Which style is better in the meta, a defensive more rounded or more aggressive but polarized style?

There's not really a clear answer to that question. Fox and Zero Suit Samus both do fine with an aggressive style, but as you may have noticed, the majority of top tiers have a more bait-and-punish style. As of right now, most top players agree that a defensive but rounded style is better. ZeRo had that style, and look at how it worked out for him.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Lucas does have a down throw to up air combo like DK and Bowser.

I agree somewhat that he has SOME advantages against some of the higher tier characters (Outside of C Tier) like Pika and Lucario. However, MU against most of them from Ness are either even (Fox/ZSS/Luigi/Ryu etc.) slight losses (Peach/Mewtwo/Diddy/Bayo etc.), or pretty bad (Marth/Corrin/Rosa/Cloud etc.).

Ness deals with a couple of MUs against Top Tier a bit better in comparison to some or most high or mid characters like Bowser and DK who both have super glaring MUs. Also, Ness is one of the few mid tier to do well against Fox unlike most high/mid tier characters. His slight losses are not that bad tho imo. But he has some BAD matchups.

Ness as solo viable can be tough (Tough MUs are against his favor), but it is possible (TGG placed 5th at Royal Flush, Gackt placed 17th at TBH 7 FOW placed 13th at Nairo Saga all solo Ness). His results and representation is consistent according to Das Koopa as he is consistenty placed 25th-16th throughout 2017 & 2018.

I do see him placed higher than 28, but it is super tough to go through top 20. The top 20 are super good: they have less glaring match-ups, more representation and results, and can handle top tiers pretty well to the point that they can even beat top tiers. So 23-32 Is the best estimate of Ness placement but placing him higher than that range is a bit of a stretch, especially dealing with some bad MUs and the negative bias in the Smash Community.

Lucas seems to have better tools than Ness overall as well. Note that Lucas has ascended the tier list while Ness descends. I don't see him going much lower, but I can see Lucas going higher. Lucas has better grounded KO potential than Ness, decent aerial KO potential (like Ness), a kill throw (like Ness), better damage racking tools in his neutral aerial and tilts (than Ness), and a significantly improved recovery (over Ness). While Ness's matchups may be good against some top tiers, most of them can gimp his recovery. This is especially evident with characters with decent recoveries or good jump heights like Luigi or Lucario. Lucas is much more dangerous to intercept or gimp without a reflector and his matchup spread is not that much worse than Ness and can be better in cases where a character relies on gimping and edgegaurding his recovery to win.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Except speed, safe grounded options, and recovery. I love Corrin and all, but I really don't see him over Marth.

Corrin and Marth and Lucina could be equally ranked at the bottom of top tier or something.

 

[SwagGuy99]

What nerfs did Fox's Blaster get?

As for not approaching when the opponent has a lead, it has been figured out. It's just pushed aside or forgotten in the heat of the moment. In analysis or conversations when players talk about one having the lead over the other, we default to saying that the player who is behind has no other option but to approach.

Fox's blaster only revived one nerf: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Fox_(SSB4)#Special_moves

It doesn't auto cancel.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Lucas seems to have better tools than Ness overall as well. Note that Lucas has ascended the tier list while Ness descends. I don't see him going much lower, but I can see Lucas going higher. Lucas has better grounded KO potential than Ness, decent aerial KO potential (like Ness), a kill throw (like Ness), better damage racking tools in his neutral aerial and tilts (than Ness), and a significantly improved recovery (over Ness). While Ness's matchups may be good against some top tiers, most of them can gimp his recovery. This is especially evident with characters with decent recoveries or good jump heights like Luigi or Lucario. Lucas is much more dangerous to intercept or gimp without a reflector and his matchup spread is not that much worse than Ness and can be better in cases where a character relies on gimping and edgegaurding his recovery to win.

Lucas's recovery isn't too great either, despite it's improvements from Ness. Lucas struggles to KO, as it relies heavily on edgeguarding or overreliance on his somewhat slow grab (with both his kill throws and kill confirm killing later than Ness's back throw, while Ness has much more reliable KO options such as his aerials). Lucas's combo game in general is overreliant on his grab. His grounded KO potential is mainly relegated to his slow smash attacks.

The main reason why they are rising/falling on polar ends of the tier list, despite a large (and growing) gap in results between them (with Ness's being on the positive end of the spectrum) is like what JustCallMeJon said: some people believe that Lucas is an underrated character, while at the same time, they spread negative bias about Ness. With Taiheita out of the picture, Lucas's results in Japan are now worse than Ness's results in Japan, which I believe will lower the bias.

Some of his matchups are somewhat determined by his recovery, but it is not the full matchup. Despite Cloud having an arguably worse recovery than Ness, he is still ranked 2nd in the tier list thanks to his array of strengths.

 

[MERPIS]

Except speed, safe grounded options, and recovery. I love Corrin and all, but I really don't see him over Marth.

Marth doesn't have a good recovery either, it's extremely intercept-able since it barely goes anywhere at all, just hit it and you're gold, people don't get that at all. Corrin has safe grounded opnions, dtilt is usually safe on any character as long as they aren't up close to him. side b is almost always safe unless the opponent plays a character like Sonic and they can just run to catch him, corrin doesn't need speed as much as you'd think, he has side B, that's good enough. And if you say "well yes he does he can't be top tier if he doesn't." What is Bayonetta, my good foe?

 

[Nah]

Corrin has safe grounded opnions, dtilt is usually safe on any character as long as they aren't up close to him.

idk why this idea that Dtilt is a poke still persists:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/htmlview#

25 frames of endlag
-12 on shield drop
has average range

unless my definition of "safe" is different from everyone else's

also yeah if you kick away pin is safe vs most characters in that you don't eat a direct punish for whiffing it/it hits their shield, but kicking away also means you give up stage control, and that can be bad in it's own way too

 

[MERPIS]

idk why this idea that Dtilt is a poke still persists:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/htmlview#

25 frames of endlag
-12 on shield drop
has average range

unless my definition of "safe" is different from everyone else's

also yeah if you kick away pin is safe vs most characters in that you don't eat a direct punish for whiffing it/it hits their shield, but kicking away also means you give up stage control, and that can be bad in it's own way too

Cause it is, iits literally a faster disjointed version of nettas dtilt, and let me ask you, what tilts do Marth have that are safe point blank or up close?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Cause it is, iits literally a faster disjointed version of nettas dtilt, and let me ask you, what tilts do Marth have that are safe point blank or up close?

All of them in a lot of scenarios.

 

[MERPIS]

All of them in a lot of scenarios.

I smell a solid lie

 

[J0eyboi]

Cause it is, iits literally a faster disjointed version of nettas dtilt, and let me ask you, what tilts do Marth have that are safe point blank or up close?

Very few characters have tilts that are safe up close. Literally the only one that comes to mind is Diddy's dtilt. Spaced, Marth's Dtilt is very safe, as is his jab.

idk why this idea that Dtilt is a poke still persists:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/htmlview#

25 frames of endlag
-12 on shield drop
has average range

unless my definition of "safe" is different from everyone else's

also yeah if you kick away pin is safe vs most characters in that you don't eat a direct punish for whiffing it/it hits their shield, but kicking away also means you give up stage control, and that can be bad in it's own way too

-16 on shield drop looks awful on paper, yes, and should be easily punishable, but you fail to account for the human aspect of it. The move is just too fast with too little shieldlag to actually punish on reaction.

As for pin, you are entirely correct. Especially because Corrin really likes having stage.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

What makes an attack a poke?

 

[J0eyboi]

What makes an attack a poke?

To my knowledge, a poke is a move that has good range and is safe on shield and pretty safe on whiff when spaced, but isn't safe closer up, as opposed to pressure tools, which are safe or even advantageous on shield drop (though not necessarily oos), but generally have very short range.

Cause it is, iits literally a faster disjointed version of nettas dtilt, and let me ask you, what tilts do Marth have that are safe point blank or up close?

Bayo's dtilt is a bit longer and 6 frames safer (active 5-7, FAF 31 vs active 7-9, FAF 27). Corrin's is only better for its disjoint, which hardly matters on a dtilt anyway due to priority.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

My mind is screaming "footsies". It's an FGC term.

A poke is generally an attack that comes out fast, is generally safe when used in neutral (not hitting the opponent), non-commital (you are not likely to get punished throwing this move out at the start of the match, since you have distance from your opponent), and the move can usually be spammed on block/shield with no punishment besides pushing you and/or your opponent away from each other. This can slowly push someone into a corner/ledge and has the added benefit of setting up for a longer range "poke" move if the character in question has one. Or that short gap between the players can be used for mind-games; such as: who has less patience and presses a button first (usually an attack).

Edit: Each time I think of footsies and pokes, my mind defaults to playing a gif of Ryu spamming st.LP at point blank on block (in Street Fighter 4), until he has created space between him and his opponent. While typing this, the Ryu reveal trailer for Smash 4, came to mind. A slight example shown in the trailer could be his down-tilts on shield which then lead into a Collarbone Breaker for the shield break.

Edit 2: Another example could be Shulk in Buster Art connecting a forward-tilt, b-air, or down-tilt with an opponent's shield, in all scenarios, Shulk is safe on shield.

 

[WiFi]

People forget that Marth isn't supposed to be safe up close. Still, the fact that people think Marth isn't top tier is surprising. Marth is a very skill-based character, you need to have good spacing skills to work with him, as well as having a good microspacing game as well. You can't just pick up Marth and be good at him, in this aspect, he's much like Sheik, good Marth players are immensely skilled at the game in general. Marth, unlike Corrin, has tippers on everything, leading to Marth having overall better killpower. This also makes Marth a good counter-pick against other swordsmen, as they fight in his favorite range. Corrin does do better at close range, but Marth is faster, has a better recovery (Corrin's recovery is actual garbage, no horizontal recovery aside from Pin, and Up-B covers half the distance of Marth's, Marth's also hits through the stage), and kills much earlier (Tipper nair at ledge with Marth at 70% rage kills at ~60-80%).

Corrin, while the character is good, relies heavily on stage control, and Corrin's safest option, that being Pin, often sees Corrin giving stage control to the opponent. Corrin isn't better than Marth, they are around the same in terms of power. Also, don't listen to Marcina mains complaining about matchups, Marcina mains seem to love bashing their own character, and they tend to see some hard even matchups as losing matchups.