Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[WiFi]

Ike and Cloud play so differently its basically like saying there's no point in playing any character besides Cloud because everyone else is lower tiered.

Also I just wanna point out that a bunch of Ike's moves are basically just better versions of Cloud's, namely b-air f-air jab d-tilt, plus his grab game.

Ike's b-air is good, but I'd argue Cloud's is better. Slightly less power behind it, but it is much easier to space with and has a much, much bigger hitbox. I was wrong in saying that they had the same playstyle though, Ike is much more grab-based. Cloud is still a much better character by a large margin though.

 

[Deleted member]

Ike is a poor man's Cloud. Cloud literally makes it so that there is no real reason to play Ike, kind of like how Mario does the same thing to Dr. Mario.

Ike's b-air is good, but I'd argue Cloud's is better. Slightly less power behind it, but it is much easier to space with and has a much, much bigger hitbox. I was wrong in saying that they had the same playstyle though, Ike is much more grab-based. Cloud is still a much better character by a large margin though.

Ike is completely different from Cloud, why would you compare it to Cloud?
Do you see top Ikes fishing for up-airs like Cloud? Not really. Cloud is faster but Ike has more range. Ike and Cloud are honestly all too different to compare. If Cloud and Ike are not even considered semi-clones, why compare them? Cloud prefers trying racking up damage through a mix of fast air attacks while Ike relies more on grabs and follow-ups to get things going. I think Ike's air attacks have bigger hitboxes than Cloud by a little bit, am I wrong?

 

[The-Technique]

Ike's b-air is good, but I'd argue Cloud's is better. Slightly less power behind it, but it is much easier to space with and has a much, much bigger hitbox. I was wrong in saying that they had the same playstyle though, Ike is much more grab-based. Cloud is still a much better character by a large margin though.

If you view the hitbox viewer, Cloud's b-air hitbox is only slightly bigger than Ike's (hitbox doesn't even cover the tip of the Cloud's sword). Also the power of Ike's b-air isn't just slightly greater, it basically kills 20% earlier, on top of coming out on a much earlier frame (frame 7 > Cloud's 11).

The main reason Cloud's b-air is good is because it belongs to a character with a quick jump squat and high air mobility. Otherwise there's a bunch of other b-airs he would be even more effective with.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Cloud's Bair is a better move than Ike's Bair when you see that it's +2 on drop with that disjointed range and favorable hitbox placement. Unless you character is fast or has range that can challenge that if Cloud Bair's your shield (with good spacing, which isn't hard for him given his air speed) there is nothing you can do about it aside guess his next option right. This is all amplified when you take into account his other attributes like Limit.

I'd also argue his Up air being better than Ike's. Ike has good aerials but Cloud's Up air and Bair are what make his air game so oppressive, could you imagine if he had Ike's grab game? The developers atleast knew what they were doing when they gave him bad throws.

 

[Rizen]

Cloud can get away with a f11 Bair because his f5 Nair is fast and covers literally everything around him. In a vacuum Ike's Bair is better but Cloud's is better for him. Cloud's Uair is one of the best in the game and he has Sheik's f4 jump squat to further enhance it.

 

[Bigbomb2]

I keep forgetting that Cloud and Bayo have 4 frame jump squats :v. Ike has a 7 frame JS so Cloud is going to generally be spacing with it while Ike is generally trying to threaten your life with it. Least that's how I see it.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The Mexican Power Rankings should be finalized today. Since no one is really paying attention to the actual news thread of the power rankings anymore, I will post it there and here.

Ike's up air serves as a pressuring tool, due it's speed and power, and can serve as a devastating 50/50 off of an up throw.

Cloud's up air serves as one of the best juggling tools in the game, due to it's speed and duration, and can pressure shields because it starts near Cloud's feet.

Cloud's up air is ultimately a better move (as it goes along with Cloud's faster jumpsquat), but Ike's is very good on what it does too.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Even in a vacuum I'd still claim Cloud has a better Bair than Ike when you look at numbers

Ike Bair- Active 7-9, FAF 55, 14 Damage, BKB 30, KBG 100, 19 frames landing lag and auto cancels after frame 35. The move is also -2 on shield drop and -9 on OOS and deals 10 frames of blockstun

Cloud Bair- active 11-13, FAF 42, 13 damage, BKB 20, KBG 95, 14 frames of landing lag and auto cancels after frame 37. The move is also +2 on shield drop and -5 OOS and deals 9 frames of blockstun

Looking at the hitboxes Ike definitely covers more space initially especially above him with Bair however he swings into the Z-axis where as Cloud starts lower than Ike's Bair and swings up higher effectively allowing him to cover plenty of space, which is helpful against smaller opponents when he's landing.

While Ike's Bair is faster and packs a bit more of a punch it's not that much stronger than Cloud's and Cloud's still covers the space Ike's does. Cloud's is safer (especially given it's size which makes OOS options less effective) but Ike's isn't that unsafe either. It's ultimately up to whether you want a bit faster start up and power at the cost of safety and space coverage or a bit more safety at space coverage at the cost of a slower start up and a bit less power.

Obviously comparing moves in a vacuum isnt that helpful as both moves are good and serve their character well but if I was designing a character I'd take Cloud's Bair over Ike most of the time.

 

[Routa]

A friend of mine said it well: "You want to use Ike's Bair against airborne opponents when in the other hand you want to use Cloud's Bair against grounded opponents."
Ultimately Cloud has better air to air and air to ground combat than Ike while Ike has better ground to ground combat. Cloud outdoes what Ike does.
Then again we should be comparing Ike to other grapplers like Bowser and DK.

 

[The_Bookworm]

A friend of mine said it well: "You want to use Ike's Bair against airborne opponents when in the other hand you want to use Cloud's Bair against grounded opponents."
Ultimately Cloud has better air to air and air to ground combat than Ike while Ike has better ground to ground combat. Cloud outdoes what Ike does.
Then again we should be comparing Ike to other grapplers like Bowser and DK.

Cloud doesn't entirely outdo what Ike does, and Ike and the grapplers are entirely different characters.

 

[TDK]

I feel like it's been a while since I got to post this, but the compendium for Hyrule Saga is up, featuring:

IzAw
Glentendo
Tsage
Purple Guy
Onpu
Meru
MaXy
Karna
Light (Not to be confused with Light, the PGR Fox main)
Kibzu~
DKHo
Biddy
Yeti
MJG
Adom
Opana
Rickles

https://smash.gg/tournament/2gg-hyrule-saga/shop/2ggift-shop-19

EDIT: Here's a list of all the at least somewhat notable LoZ character mains I could find confirmed to be attending so far:

Spoiler

VoiD
K9Sbruce
Blank
Espeon•CH
Arrow
7
T
RIN (Not to be confused with RIN, the JP Wii Fit trainer)
BaSK 3xA
HeroOfWinds
TLOrEo
ItsSonic
TastyComaWife
L.U.C.Y
Ri-Ma
Sigma (!!!)
JDizzle
Bloodynite
Pon
The Forkies
Koskinator
Lord Bahamut
The Countess
Diamond
Bonren
Rizeasu (!!!)

Obviously a lot of these guys are going to drown in pools but it's cool to see how many there are. Sigma and Rizeasu making their NA Debut is gonna be awesome.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Might as well post it here as well:

SSB4 Mexican Power Rankings 2017
50. Frijolito (Second: )
49. Simi (Second: )
48. 4NG
47. Master Puffy
46. Manzano (Second: )
45. Lalo (Second: )
44. Brian (Second: )
43. Mr. Wamu
42. Klein
41. SRK
40. Yasuo (Second: )
39. Artik (Second: )
38. Fabz
37. Pineda
36. Vyral (Second: )
35. Ramos
34. Lazh
33. SBGera (Second: )
32. Maister
31. Daimy (Second: )
30. Chaplin (Second: )
29. Bernie (Second: )
28. Richy
27. Emm
26. Fuerzadon
25. Elvis
24. Reflet
23. I-C
22. Nalga (Second: )
21. EZ
20. QROG
19. Dano
18. Richi
17. Laloba
16. Waymas
15. Pollo
14. BryanZ (Second: )
13. Pablo (Second: )
12. Bedgar (Second: )
11. Sou
10. Captain Levi (Second: )
9. Salva
8. Serge (Second: )
7. Rox (Second: )
6. Wonf
5. Hyuga
4. Regi Shikimi
3. Chag
2. Javi
1. MKLeo (Second: )

 

[ARGHETH]

Light (Not to be confused with Light, the PGR Fox main)

So there's Light, the Fox main, Light, the Sheik main, and Light The Lantern, the ZSS main?

 

[The_Bookworm]

So there's Light, the Fox main, Light, the Sheik main, and Light The Lantern, the ZSS main?

Now we need one to main a Kid Icarus character. XD

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just saw I got a few shout outs.

Just want to say the only reasons I no longer post are because

1) Dragon Ball FighterZ dropped.

2) As long as Rosalina exists Ryu will never ever be a consistent threat at majors.

3) Once I accept that my character cannot overcome a match-up, I get really bored with the game I am playing.

4) Currently playing Final Fantasy XV along with DBZF. Generally I need one RPG and one fighting games to occupy my gaming time and I am good to go.

 

[|RK|]

Just saw I got a few shout outs.

Just want to say the only reasons I no longer post are because

1) Dragon Ball FighterZ dropped.

2) As long as Rosalina exists Ryu will never ever be a consistent threat at majors.

3) Once I accept that my character cannot overcome a match-up, I get really bored with the game I am playing.

4) Currently playing Final Fantasy XV along with DBZF. Generally I need one RPG and one fighting games to occupy my gaming time and I am good to go.

Incredibly off-topic and hypocritical, but I'd love to know what team you're running.

And yes, Ryu seems to have a number of bracket roadblocks, which is kind of unfortunate. IMO, better to have many -1 MUs than any -3s. Maybe even any -2 MUs.

It's one of those things that reinforces my faith in Lucario. The fact that Tsu beat Larry 2-0 twice also helps.

 

[Deleted member]

Just saw I got a few shout outs.

Just want to say the only reasons I no longer post are because

1) Dragon Ball FighterZ dropped.

2) As long as Rosalina exists Ryu will never ever be a consistent threat at majors.

3) Once I accept that my character cannot overcome a match-up, I get really bored with the game I am playing.

4) Currently playing Final Fantasy XV along with DBZF. Generally I need one RPG and one fighting games to occupy my gaming time and I am good to go.

Welcome back man! Just what this thread needed, not being sarcastic. I can see what you mean with DBZ Fighters. A lot of SmashBoards users are into Dragon Ball Fighter Z, that game is going to EVO 2018 I can imagine. I feel a little concerned for Ryu in this meta, I personally think he is a high tier as well. With already not a lot of Ryus running rampant enough and all of the many Rosalina players out there, Ryu does struggle. Ryu's match up is not on par with the top tiers as well, so that is why I think he is high tier. Do not give up just because Ryu struggles with the Rosalina match-up, you must learn your opponent. I see a lot of Rosalina players juggle with up air. Develop counter-play. You should really post here more often. That is your choice though. Remember when you called me drunk at the V3 Competitive Analysis? Good days for me.

Incredibly off-topic and hypocritical, but I'd love to know what team you're running.

And yes, Ryu seems to have a number of bracket roadblocks, which is kind of unfortunate. IMO, better to have many -1 MUs than any -3s. Maybe even any -2 MUs.

It's one of those things that reinforces my faith in Lucario. The fact that Tsu beat Larry 2-0 twice also helps.

This. There are always players who have to fight their opponent and the opponent is usually stronger, and has a stronger main that has a +2 match-up over you. For example the Ness and Cloud match-up. That player can beat him if he tries his best, it is honestly all about playing and not the character. When people chose secondaries, they should not chose them because "oh this character has a really good match-up". It should be about what play-style works against the character you are fighting.

I currently have depression, but I will learn to overcome it. Keep up the good work you users who contribute to this thread every day.
-Shiny

 

[Frihetsanka]

IMO, better to have many -1 MUs than any -3s. Maybe even any -2 MUs.

I agree. This is the main reason why I believe that Donkey Kong and Bowser are overrated, they have too many -2 and possibly even -3 MUs to relevant characters (like Rosalina, Sonic, and Zero Suit Samus). This is also one of the reasons why I think Mario is a bit overrated (he's still somewhere in top 15 but not top 10, that Sonic MU is pretty bad for him).

I wonder why Ryu is higher than Corrin on the 4BR tier list when Ryu has a -2 MU (Rosalina) while Corrin has no MU worse than -1. Is it because he might beat Fox?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu beats Foxes that refuse to press the B button.

Which is every Fox that will ever exist because they all need Adderall.

As far as counter play goes....

There is no counter play when one character invalidates another.

Rosa's tools nullify Ryu's.

Simple as that.

Right now I run 16, Vegeta, Cell.

Tier whoring is the only way to be.

Playing Ryu in this game re-enforced that harsh lesson.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I agree. This is the main reason why I believe that Donkey Kong and Bowser are overrated, they have too many -2 and possibly even -3 MUs to relevant characters (like Rosalina, Sonic, and Zero Suit Samus). This is also one of the reasons why I think Mario is a bit overrated (he's still somewhere in top 15 but not top 10, that Sonic MU is pretty bad for him).

I wonder why Ryu is higher than Corrin on the 4BR tier list when Ryu has a -2 MU (Rosalina) while Corrin has no MU worse than -1. Is it because he might beat Fox?

Ryu does have an advantageous matchup against Fox. I don't think Ryu's matchups against the rest of top tier is that bad, although the Rosa matchup is pretty bad, and a few characters below him, such as Ness, can give him a bit of trouble.

The matchup issue that is haunting DK and Bowser is becoming a bit more apparent in the current metagame. His grab confirms are powerful, but they seem to be a little overhyped. With both of their solo results going down, they might drop to D tier. For Mario, I think his matchup issues is a bit overexaggerated. Sonic isn't a real issue, although the Cloud and Rosa matchups are (although not to the same extent as his brother).

Corrin's matchup spread lacks any -2 matchups at all, but her advantageous matchups against the relevant characters isn't as strong as characters above her.

 

[WiFi]

Ryu does have an advantageous matchup against Fox. I don't think Ryu's matchups against the rest of top tier is that bad, although the Rosa matchup is pretty bad, and a few characters below him, such as Ness, can give him a bit of trouble.

The matchup issue that is haunting DK and Bowser is becoming a bit more apparent in the current metagame. His grab confirms are powerful, but they seem to be a little overhyped. With both of their solo results going down, they might drop to D tier. For Mario, I think his matchup issues is a bit overexaggerated. Sonic isn't a real issue, although the Cloud and Rosa matchups are (although not to the same extent as his brother).

Corrin's matchup spread lacks any -2 matchups at all, but her advantageous matchups against the relevant characters isn't as strong as characters above her.

Nah, Ryu-Fox is dead even. Ryu can do some nasty stuff to Fox, but as Emblem said before, pressing the B-Button helps a lot. Fox can play really campy in this matchup and rack up quick damage with lasers, and edgetraps Ryu for free. Ryu, however, will win most trades and can kill Fox at 60%. The Fox Discord also operates by this logic as well. Fox mains no longer see Ryu as a bad matchup.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nah, Ryu-Fox is dead even. Ryu can do some nasty stuff to Fox, but as Emblem said before, pressing the B-Button helps a lot. Fox can play really campy in this matchup and rack up quick damage with lasers, and edgetraps Ryu for free. Ryu, however, will win most trades and can kill Fox at 60%. The Fox Discord also operates by this logic as well. Fox mains no longer see Ryu as a bad matchup.

Congrats to the Fox community.

It only took you guys 2 years to reach the same conclusion I did in a single day.







Somebody kill me.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Fox Ryu has never been that bad. It's just obnoxious if you're approaching constantly.
Up Throw+Up Air and lasers make the matchup hellish to deal with as Ryu. Fox can play it similar to the way Sheik does.

 

[ぱみゅ]

A lot of characters are obnoxious if you approach all the time, approach options suck and are generally unsafe through the entire cast.

 

[|RK|]

A lot of characters are obnoxious if you approach all the time, approach options suck and are generally unsafe through the entire cast.

Fox and Falcon mains are probably the most allergic to this.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Up Throw+Up Air and lasers make the matchup hellish to deal with as Ryu.

The first one isn't even a combo.

approach options suck and are generally unsafe through the entire cast.

Why is that, and couldn't approach options be considered conditionally useful?

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

Up throw and then catch the landing either with up air, grab, or dash attack

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Up throw and then catch the landing either with up air, grab, or dash attack

Up throw doesn't stun the opponent for long enough for these to be legit.

 

[The_Bookworm]

A lot of characters are obnoxious if you approach all the time, approach options suck and are generally unsafe through the entire cast.

Something that I noticed (and I think I pointed this out in a earlier post), is that a lot of the characters considered "underrated", possess a poor approach against most of the cast.
Issues approaching are generally a bigger problem in the faster paced world of Melee, but some players seem to overlook this glaring issue in this game.

 

[|RK|]

Up throw doesn't stun the opponent for long enough for these to be legit.

It's not about the stun. It's more about Ryu's not-so-hot disadvantage.

 

[Rizen]

Fox's 2 hit Uair is perfect for vortexing Ryu.

About approaching, the reason Link doesn't lose to everybody in neutral is he forces 95% of the cast to approach him. Only a few characters out-camp Link. TL because superior mobility, ROB's beam snipes Link as he spams, DH kind of stalemates with Link. Olimar at pikmin range can be dangerous and shut down Link's spam. A few others have decent anti-camping games but ultimately are forced to approach like Falco and Zelda. Zair and bomb f throw>catch with DA are great anti-reflector tools.

This leads into stage control issues. IMO it's not worth losing stage control to retreat and keep spamming. You can only true "camp" for a few seconds before shifting into swordie zoning and footsies, which still forces approaches. TL and DH are the only characters who can really camp as a strategy.

Stages are chosen to limit circle camping and that's a good thing. It does hurt Link though; in ssb64 Link had much better MUs on Hyrule Castle than Dreamland. The time limit also forces interactions.

The roundabout point I'm trying to make is camping is but a small part of forcing approaches. Rosalina is the best example of winning through making the opponent come to you. Luma is the ultimate zoning tool. Debuz beats Bayo players because he's a master at pressuring through zoning. I can see why he seconds Olimar who has a similar mindset. More characters can get the upperhand with zoning pressure than you might first think. Fox's lasers are a great example. Salem's Bayo beat Elegant and Captain Zack lost due to this fundamental difference in their styles; Zack's flashy and aggressive. I think players of half the cast could benefit from these examples, some more than others. Get in the mindset that it's the beginning of CQC rather than a separate, full aspect of gameplay. A fireball or laser in place of rushing in is all it takes.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I can see why he seconds Olimar who has a similar mindset.

Speaking of which, I can't recall the last time he's ever used Olimar.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Speaking of which, I can't recall the last time he's ever used Olimar.

He still uses Olimar in locals, but the last time I seen him use Olimar was during the Championship against Samsora (at least to my memory).

 

[Skeeter Mania]

DH kind of stalemates with Link

I thought Link had a strong MU with Duck Hunt (which I still don't get why this is the case)?

 

[The_Bookworm]

I am bored, so I might as well do this:

PGR v5

Link to thread of the list, plus recap on PGR v4:
https://smashboards.com/threads/pgr-v5-updates-and-pgr-v4-recap.453122/

C-Tier
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: KEN) (2nd: Nietono) (3rd: Choco)
Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Kirihara) (2nd: Rizeasu) (3rd: Ron)
Noods Noods Noods: Melee Edition (1st: falln) (2nd: Elegant) (3rd: Eon)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 1 (1st: MkLeo) (2nd: Shuton) (3rd: shky)
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 2 (1st: Shu) (2nd: Zackray) (3rd: Tsu-)
Sumabato 23 (1st: Raito) (2nd: DIO) (3rd: Shotgun)
XenoSaga XIII (1st: Dabuz) (2nd: Light) (3rd: dekillsage)
King of the Springs 3 (1st: Tweek) (2nd: Fatality) (3rd: Dabuz)
No Fun Allowed 2 (1st: Elegant) (2nd: SaSSy) (3rd: Jumbolias)
Xanadu: End of an Era (1st: Ralphie) (2nd: Remzi) (3rd: Mr. E)
EGLX 2018 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Midwest Mayhem 11 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Full Bloom 4 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Sumabato 24 (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)
Collision XV (1st: TBD) (2nd: TBD) (3rd: TBD)

B-Tier
Umebura T.A.T. (1st: KEN) (2nd: Choco) (3rd: Nietono)
EVO Japan 2018 (1st: MKLeo) (2nd: Abadango) (3rd: Kameme)
Niconico Tokaigi 2018 (1st: Nairo) (2nd: MKLeo) (3rd: KEN)

A-Tier
Genesis 5 (1st: MKLeo) (2nd: Mistake) (3rd: Salem)
Frostbite 2018 (1st: Dabuz) (2nd: Tweek) (3rd: Mistake)


Upcoming PGR'ed Events: EGLX 2018 (3/11/18), Midwest Mayhem 11 (3/11/18), Full Bloom 4 (3/24/18), Sumabato 24 (3/24/18), Collision XV (3/31/18)

Insight on how the season rankings work:
https://panda.gg/blogs/tournament-tier-system/tournament-tier-system-update-for-the-pgrv5-season

To look forward to: Our next big event so far is GOML 2018 at May. In the meantime, we have a bunch of C-tiers for March and April so far.

Current v5 state: The top players, particularly MKLeo and Dabuz, are taking the majority of majors in v5. Salem, while still placing high, seems to have faltered a little bit. Most PGR'ed tournaments so far is from Japan (this is posted 2/17/18). The players ZeRo and JK, will no longer compete in tournaments until an unspecified amount of time. Fatality, who dropped in v4 due to a lack of Momocon and Civil War placings, placed very well in Frostbite, which may result in a increase in the future. Mistake seems to be stepping up to his first-half-of-v4-run, with a very strong run in both Genesis and Frostbite, even taking out the current best Bayo Salem. Kameme placed very well in EVO Japan 2018, which may result in an increase in the future. Cosmos' and Samsora's run at Frostbite shows that they are not done placing high.
That is what I got so far.

 

[Kofu]

So there's Light, the Fox main, Light, the Sheik main, and Light The Lantern, the ZSS main?

There's also Raito the Duck Hunt main

 

[The_Bookworm]

There's also Raito the Duck Hunt main

I never knew "raito" in English is "light". OMG.

 

[Kofu]

I never knew "raito" in English is "light". OMG.

 

[The_Bookworm]

LOL WHAT?!?!?!?

One more week awaits two stacked C Tier events. What to expect from:

EGLX 2018
PGR'ed:
Larry Lurr
Mr. R
Mistake
Ally
AnTi
ESAM
Samsora
MVD
Fatality
K9sbruce

Non-PGR'ed, but notable:
THUNDER
Venom
False
SuperGirlKels
Blacktwins
Z
Ray Kalm
Hungrybox

Midwest Mayhem 11 (1000 dollar pot bonus)
PGR'ed:
ZeRo (not competing, but present)
MKLeo
Dabuz
Cosmos
DarkShad
NAKAT
tyroy

Non-PGR'ed, but notable:
Locus
Gluttony
S1
quiK
Ixis
Griffith
Izaw

 

[Rizen]

Izaw

What good players has Izaw beaten in an actual tournament?