Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Y2Kay]

Good luck to Zero in his future endeavors, I'm sure he will be fine in whatever he does next. He has earned a break, and I feel the new race to the top will give smash 4 a nice dose of hype.

 

[|RK|]

If this leads to Diddy Kong dropping out of top 5, then that would show how easily people are influenced by player skill rather than character strength. Diddy Kong is still a top 5 character, regardless of whether ZeRo is playing the game or not.

I'd argue the opposite with the same premises... Diddy may actually end up outside of top 5 *because* people conflated player skill with character strength.

 

[Lord Dio]

The king, the god of smash 4, the holder of the title of the longest run of victories in a row in esports history, is retiring indefinitely.
This is the end of an era, and while it saddens me to know I won't be seeing him showing up and winning everything, it also means there will be new battles to be fought. He was the demon of many players, and with this absence, seeing who comes out on top will be quite the sight. Let the new battles begin, and good luck to ZeRo in all future ventures, and thank you for being here, for being a role model, a goal to aspire towards, and so much more.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'd argue the opposite with the same premises... Diddy may actually end up outside of top 5 *because* people conflated player skill with character strength.

I'm inclined to agree, at least to some extent. Diddy shouldn't be essentially tied with Cloud when Cloud has a much better MU spread. Anyway, I see four main possibilities now:

#1: Diddy deserves to be top 5, but he drops because of a lack of results. This would prove that people put too much emphasis on results.
#2: Diddy deserves to be top 5, and stays in top 5.
#3: Diddy does not deserve to be top 5, and drops. This would also prove that people put too much emphasis on results (he shouldn't have been top 5 to begin with, much less tied for top 2).
#4: Diddy does not deserve to be top 5, but stays anyway. In this case, people might have misjudged Diddy's potential, or they put too much emphasis on ZeRo's results.

I hope that #2 will end up to be the case, and that Diddy will remain in top 5 for the remainder of Smash 4's lifetime, but we'll see.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I already think we put too much on results. Seeing as how Toon Link dropped because of Hyuga, Duck Hunt rose due to Brood and company, the same with Donkey Kong and Bowser.

 

[Krysco]

With ZeRo retiring, who holds the title for best Diddy Kong now? Zinoto? Dyr? MVD? And as others have said, best of luck to ZeRo.

 

[|RK|]

I actually want to open up a different topic: Witch Time and how it affects Bayonetta.

I believe I've said it before, but I think WT is by far the biggest reason every Bayo feels so different (compared to every other character in the cast). You can prep for and deal with any and all of her tools IMO, but WT usage is probably the biggest wild card.

WaDi got 3-0d by Chag earlier, and he commented that he didn't expect all of the Witch Times. And I think - everyone always says that WTw is a bigger deal, but I think WT constantly shapes how you play neutral against Bayo, and as a result affects the potency of her tools.

But the thing is - there's never any cut and dry response for Witch Time except to be unpredictable - and if you can, avoid triggering it as much as possible. But the thing is - you can't necessarily be unpredictable to everyone, yeah? So every punish that isn't grab-based becomes a little more suspect.

Some of it is defeated by sheer knowledge - knowing how much lag she gets at all times. But other parts remove the ability to be confident in simple frame traps. So ultimately Bayo is able to escape for free without pressing a button. That's likely why people are so afraid of nair - not because they don't think they can trade... They're just not sure when it ends exactly. And that's part of the bait.

Idk - I think if there's some counterplay to WT that didn't involve actively baiting it out, it would be easier to employ the other counterplay. That's just my theory, of course. Thoughts/bitter invectives?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I actually want to open up a different topic: Witch Time and how it affects Bayonetta.

I believe I've said it before, but I think WT is by far the biggest reason every Bayo feels so different (compared to every other character in the cast). You can prep for and deal with any and all of her tools IMO, but WT usage is probably the biggest wild card.

WaDi got 3-0d by Chag earlier, and he commented that he didn't expect all of the Witch Times. And I think - everyone always says that WTw is a bigger deal, but I think WT constantly shapes how you play neutral against Bayo, and as a result affects the potency of her tools.

But the thing is - there's never any cut and dry response for Witch Time except to be unpredictable - and if you can, avoid triggering it as much as possible. But the thing is - you can't necessarily be unpredictable to everyone, yeah? So every punish that isn't grab-based becomes a little more suspect.

Some of it is defeated by sheer knowledge - knowing how much lag she gets at all times. But other parts remove the ability to be confident in simple frame traps. So ultimately Bayo is able to escape for free without pressing a button. That's likely why people are so afraid of nair - not because they don't think they can trade... They're just not sure when it ends exactly. And that's part of the bait.

Idk - I think if there's some counterplay to WT that didn't involve actively baiting it out, it would be easier to employ the other counterplay. That's just my theory, of course. Thoughts/bitter invectives?

Because bayo is so common and outclasses zard so much I simply throw out moves to see what works and what doesn't. I've noticed that's zard's flamethrower can cancel out witch time (if bayo is hit after witch time is activated the effect is cancelled) does Bowser's fire breath work the same way?

 

[Rizen]

Good for him.

Streaming is how you make real consistent money once you make a name for yourself.

I can't tell if this is sarcastic cynicism or sincere cynicism.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Because bayo is so common and outclasses zard so much I simply throw out moves to see what works and what doesn't. I've noticed that's zard's flamethrower can cancel out witch time (if bayo is hit after witch time is activated the effect is cancelled) does Bowser's fire breath work the same way?

Bowser's Fire Breath does work the same way sometimes. His breath covers more range, but it doesn't make foes flinch when being hit by the outer part of the fire, making it theoretically easier to Witch Time and punish.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Thank you so much! Wow, this sounds like why I stopped playing. You just lose the passion after awhile. You look back and say "Well, I've accomplished everything I want to accomplish, what else is there left to do? Time to hang it up for now."

Makes sense why ZeRo would get tired of Smash 4. Many people are. The meta right now, and as of late, isn't exactly the most exciting thing.

I understand why you quit ZeRo. Best of wishes to you in the future.

If I was ZeRo:

• My new name would be LazyBarrios or something.
• I would be maining the random button and my feelings
• Have it as more of a hobby than a career.
• And like he said, focus more on streaming, exercise, learning new things, just stretching out the interests in my life.

And if you’re tired of the meta atm, don’t be in it. Just do what you want to do. Play WFT. Play bowser jr. Play bayo and spam witch twist until you grow a beard. Freestyle your play, instead of having the typical, rigid structure most smashers have when competing and stuff.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

If I was ZeRo:

• My new name would be LazyBarrios or something.
• I would be maining the random button and my feelings
• Have it as more of a hobby than a career.
• And like he said, focus more on streaming, exercise, learning new things, just stretching out the interests in my life.

And if you’re tired of the meta atm, don’t be in it. Just do what you want to do. Play WFT. Play bowser jr. Play bayo and spam witch twist until you grow a beard. Freestyle your play, instead of having the typical, rigid structure most smashers have when competing and stuff.

Not to misinterpret what you're saying but are you suggesting that he even force himself to play smash? Because from the looks of things that's what has him doing this in the first place.

 

[TDK]

PAX South day 1 is over: The following players made it to top 8:

Ally
VoiD
Salem
Cosmos
Dabuz
Captain Zack

The following players are put into a redemption bracket, where two of them will claim the last two spots in top 8:

ANTi
Samsora
WaDi
Javi
Larry Lurr
Karna

The following players have been eliminated:
MVD
Chag
Marss
Mistake

 

[The_Bookworm]

I joined Smashboards a few days ago, and can you guys tell how you did (for example):

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://twitter.com/SeraphySmash
↑
have you ever been so drunk you wanted to drop the hottest post of 2017 onto smash boards?

↑
I will start taking hostages if this somehow leads back to a Marth vs Lucina discussion.
#1213TDK, 1 minute ago

 

[The-Technique]

I can't tell if this is sarcastic cynicism or sincere cynicism.

its the truth, look no further than nairo and mango. nairo plans to travel less and stream more, at least as of right now.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Not to misinterpret what you're saying but are you suggesting that he even force himself to play smash? Because from the looks of things that's what has him doing this in the first place.

No, he was just suggesting that ZeRo just have fun and do whatever he wants when playing the game. which really is kinda what he's doing, except he's not doing any tournaments at all. He's not quitting Smash 4 altogether because he still likes it, he just isn't participating in tournaments. He's just gonna play it for fun and stuff, sometimes on stream I assume.

With ZeRo retiring, who holds the title for best Diddy Kong now? Zinoto? Dyr? MVD? And as others have said, best of luck to ZeRo.

I was wondering this too. Either Zinoto or MVD probably, not sure which is considered the best though. MVD placed higher on the PGR though.

Diddy Kong's representation is going to be really weird now actually, one of the best in the game but with Mewtwo-level results (probably even less) in the very top areas (although way more in lower levels because there are still tons of players). It's gonna be weird for Diddy to very rarely show up in top 16 of nationals. I never really thought of the possibility of a top tier like Diddy Kong losing its top player. People have talked about what would happen if that kind of thing happen, but I never really thought about it really happening.

I joined Smashboards a few days ago, and can you guys tell how you did (for example):

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://twitter.com/SeraphySmash
↑
have you ever been so drunk you wanted to drop the hottest post of 2017 onto smash boards?

↑
I will start taking hostages if this somehow leads back to a Marth vs Lucina discussion.
#1213TDK, 1 minute ago

You can add stuff to your signature. go to the bar that comes down when you put the cursor on your username on the top of the screen (near the notifications) and click the signature button.

 

[TDK]

I joined Smashboards a few days ago, and can you guys tell how you did (for example):

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://twitter.com/SeraphySmash
↑
have you ever been so drunk you wanted to drop the hottest post of 2017 onto smash boards?

↑
I will start taking hostages if this somehow leads back to a Marth vs Lucina discussion.
#1213TDK, 1 minute ago

In the top right corner, near alerts, you should see an image of your avatar and your name. If you click on that, and click on Signature, you should be able to add whatever you'd like there.

EDIT: 'd

 

[Game7a1]

PAX South day 1 is over: The following players made it to top 8:

Ally
VoiD
Salem
Cosmos
Dabuz
Captain Zack

The following players are put into a redemption bracket, where two of them will claim the last two spots in top 8:

ANTi
Samsora
WaDi
Javi
Larry Lurr
Karna

The following players have been eliminated:
MVD
Chag
Marss
Mistake

They haven't finished with pools, so this could all change tomorrow (okay, maybe not all of it). From there, we will know who plays in bracket on Sunday.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

When I think of Witch Time. i wonder can players use it as a punish to a move on reaction or start-up frames rather than a read.

I think part of the reason Witch Time may seem overpowered is because a lot of players use it in the same way and that other characters with counters that can be just as strong as Bayonetta's (taking a stock) aren't used as much as Bayonetta players use their own counters. So it may seem lop-sided.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Not to misinterpret what you're saying but are you suggesting that he even force himself to play smash? Because from the looks of things that's what has him doing this in the first place.

IF I was ZeRo, knowing how draining and all-consuming competing can be, I’d take time, to relax and unwind in the game, so it doesn’t become work. Hop online and make custom matches with items and stuff. Play random. Play someone I’d never played before. Etc... if he don’t feel it, then he don’t.

I’d just try to keep it from work as much as possible. Heck, I might even try to do a side-tourney (knowing my clout) with special smash on (I’d have the tail or rocket feature on). Now that would be godlike.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm true, the stifled formatting on matches can get pretty dull if there are only so many. Heck, I hop on crazy orders because I find FG to be boring.

 

[Myollnir]

Witch Time is the best move in the entire game, it forces the opponent to play accordingly and respect this option at almost all time.

Against high level opponents, you don't even have to use it for it to impact your games. Just the threat of it will prevent your opponent from pushing too many buttons.

Against mid to low level players, since they won't adapt (they're not high level for a reason) you'll get entirely free stocks once you've noticed a certain habit or just go for a raw read with it.

Without WTi, Bayonetta would be a LOT weaker. This move is the only reason why she has so much freedom with such a bad start-up on all of moves, and why she can get away with so much weird/unsafe stuff.

That being said, actually resorting to using Witch Time is still a big risk, with a FAF of 50, every top tier in the game will make her eat at the very least 20% damage, in addition to her next Witch Times being weakened for ~22 seconds ; I'm assuming the Bayo won't use it if she has a risk of dying in the process, as the move's purpose is to have a higher reward than the risk.

WTi also gives you a free approach against projectiles, as you're granted a lot of invincibility if your WTi is triggered (by the way, it's here for a reason, WTi doesn't stop the time, it just slows your opponent to 1/8 of their speed, so without the invincibility, Bayo would get hit by the slowed hitbox after using WTi), with just the cost of the move not being as threatening for ~22 seconds.

Remember that if the WTi activates on the bat within part, its effect is a lot weaker and Bayonetta doesn't get as much invincibility. After landing a successful WTi but getting the bat within part, it's sometimes worth to use another WTi because going for another move will get you hit by th (very) long-lasting hitbox.

There's also a strong mix-up that not enough Bayonettas do. If you land on a platform during the first frames of WTi, you'll drop through it. It can trick your opponent into thinking you're landing on a platform with the WTi so they try to punish it but instead you're now below them and you can U-Tilt. If you want to do that on smashville's moving platform, please remember that it doesn't count as if you landed on the ground, so by doing that you will NOT get your jump and specials back.

TL;DR : Best move in the game. Covers Bayo's biggest weakness (safe attacks thrown at her multiple times, her moves having a slow start-up). It's almost like giving M2's U-Throw to Sheik lol (just an example, Sheik with such a killthrow would be a lot better than current Bayo and have her own tier lol)

 

[Lord Dio]

PAX South day 1 is over: The following players made it to top 8:

Ally
VoiD
Salem
Cosmos
Dabuz
Captain Zack

The following players are put into a redemption bracket, where two of them will claim the last two spots in top 8:

ANTi
Samsora
WaDi
Javi
Larry Lurr
Karna

The following players have been eliminated:
MVD
Chag
Marss
Mistake

is there a bracket link anywhere or no?

Tbh, this looks hella easy for Loser's Larry, only real opposition for him would be Salem

 

[Onua]

Bayo in general just has some of the best tools in smash. I think her bair is honestly one of the best in the game for example, I think its better than Clouds lol. (Unpopular opinion but yeah)

 

[MercuryPenny]

for how much pain that move dishes out, it has literally no reason to be safe-ish on shield and usable twice in a shorthop

 

[|RK|]

When I think of Witch Time. i wonder can players use it as a punish to a move on reaction or start-up frames rather than a read.

I think part of the reason Witch Time may seem overpowered is because a lot of players use it in the same way and that other characters with counters that can be just as strong as Bayonetta's (taking a stock) aren't used as much as Bayonetta players use their own counters. So it may seem lop-sided.

To be fair, with Witch Time, all you need to know is when your opponent will press any button.

For other counters, you need to know whether it's going to give enough reward. After all, one Witch Time on anything can mean a stock. A Marth or Corrin that uses their counter any time they expect a button is going to have to throw it out more frequently.

That said, traditional counters do have that trick where you powershield and activate counter simultaneously... But only useful if you're on the ground.

 

[Rizen]

WTi is much better than other counters. It doesn't matter how powerful the attack that hits it is, any non-projectile hit that triggers it slows the character meaning there are no safe pokes on WTi, and it lets Bayo choose her followups. WTi offstage- Dair spike, low %- ladder starter, kill %- smash, near the ceiling- WTwist fixed kb 1st hit chain.

OT
If Mr.R was a pirate he'd be Mr.Aaaaarrrr. Sorry, I'm tired.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I was unaware that you could powershield and counter the same move. Is that like a frame perfect input, or does it only work on multi-hits?

 

[InfinitySoul]

I was unaware that you could powershield and counter the same move. Is that like a frame perfect input, or does it only work on multi-hits?

when you shield/pshield a move, the hitbox cannot hit you anymore but it stays active. And counter only checks for active hitboxes.

 

[The_Bookworm]

In the top right corner, near alerts, you should see an image of your avatar and your name. If you click on that, and click on Signature, you should be able to add whatever you'd like there.

EDIT: 'd

Thanks! Also, can anyone tell me how to find and copypaste those character icons like the Greninja one in the above quote?

 

[Myollnir]

Bayo in general just has some of the best tools in smash. I think her bair is honestly one of the best in the game for example, I think its better than Clouds lol. (Unpopular opinion but yeah)

Yeah it's definitely a really good B-air, but the most important thing is that the low FAF fits the characters really well. I still think Cloud's B-air is better due to having a better range and no sourspot for the same start-up (hitbox out at frame 11). A much better neutral tool. Bayo's B-air is still obviously amazing.

for how much pain that move dishes out, it has literally no reason to be safe-ish on shield and usable twice in a shorthop

That's great, because you can't do that. You can however SH B-air U-air, but it's nowhere near as safe.

And the move is as safe on shield as ZSS' B-air (-4 on block) while being 3 frames slower and killing later. However, the FAF is amazing.

Most B-air from top tiers are amazing, honestly.

One of the biggest drawback of having a frame 11 B-air, though, is that you need an almost perfect trump in order to get a kill, especially for Bayonetta compared to Cloud since his B-air hits lower than hers. ZSS' B-air, paired with her tether trump and higher KB than the other two, is flat out devastating.

All three moves are easily S tier for a B-air, though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I can't tell if this is sarcastic cynicism or sincere cynicism.

Cant be trying to provide a future for your family off a game that gets no support from its parent company.

I am 30 years old.

My world view is different from most of you.

 

[WiFi]

I'm kind of sad and excited at the same time that Zero left. The three players that will rise to take his place will probably be Salem, Nairo and Mkleo. However, Sheik might be above Diddy on the next tier list due to results, the two top Sheiks, Void and Mr.R are on the same level of skill so losing one wouldn't effect Sheik as much. ZeRo was the reason why I got into competitive Smash, and I think he should get the 0 ranking for the next Pgr, due to the impact he had on the game for its first four years. Still, we might see some exciting things this season without ZeRo top threeing everything.

 

[Browny]

I've also literally never heard anyone say M2 doesn't have disjointed moves he has been called a semi-swordsman since release.

If you're not a Mewtwo main, you wouldn't know. I tried to watch every time notable mewtwo mains were on stream and I well and truly lost cost of the amount of time commentators said he didn't have a disjoint. There is no way that commentators are their own unique class of ignorant players, the ratio of commentators who didn't know it would match the ratio of all players who didn't know.

For sure, its better now but there was a solid year of people massively underestimating Mewtwo and getting basic facts wrong about him.

Allow me to point out that none other than Zero was probably the leading cause of misinformation about Mewtwo with his god-awful analysis video that he so desperately rushed to be the first of. Mew2king was also a culprit when he played Mewtwo on his stream regularly and consistently said wrong things about why he was losing.

They were obsessing over his lack of a dthrow combo, saying "he has no combos." They were saying with a straight face, that his uthrow wasn't even that good at that many characters have stronger ones (refer to my sig). They were repeatedly trying to ride the lip with his teleport like sheik does and died to it when they could have you know... just aimed at the ledge?

 

[Deleted member]

About Diddy Kong, I feel like he is going to drop out of S tier next tier list. He has a good chance of being top five, but Sheik could potentially be better than Diddy Kong ( maybe ). I feel like these three are going to compete for the number one with ZeRo gone: Salem, Nairo and MKLeo. But you never know, there might be more players ready to get into that action. I actually feel this might benefit ZSS and Meta Knight, because of their bad match up against Diddy Kong now that ZeRo ( The best Diddy in the world by far ), is retiring from competitive Smash 4. This season got very interesting.

 

[Rizen]

Anyone who thinks Diddy is dropping out of top 4 needs to look up videos by other top diddy players like MVD and Zinato. IDK all the good Diddy players can someone help me out? Diddy was consistently top 3 in overall results. ZeRo wasn't the only player carrying him.

Losing ZeRo is a huge loss though. Diddy had the #1 player representing him and now he doesn't even have a top 10 player, maybe top 20. That's going to hurt.

 

[Blitz Rawket]

My main is D tier? Sweet. No wonder it made people so salty when I beat them handily. Link should be higher though, imo. Great KO potential off the vast majority of his normal moveset--like pretty much all of them sans neutral standing A will kill, even bAir at a high enough percent. He has a hitconfirm off Ax2 that you can make inescapable at certain percents. Bomb recovery still as strong as ever. His main flaw is getting walked off the stage with relative ease but he's so versatile everywhere else I'd put him low B at worst. D would mean he's bad based on how the game rewards certain styles of play and Link can Do Everything. Just got some holes in his D (no pun intended).

 

[Wintermelon43]

Samsora 3-0 Salem

 

[Nah]

inb4 everyone starts saying that Peach definitively has a +1 MU with Bayo and that maybe she's secret top tier and they totally knew it all along =p

 

[The_Bookworm]

inb4 everyone starts saying that Peach definitively has a +1 MU with Bayo and that maybe she's secret top tier and they totally knew it all along =p

The current Smash playerbase in a nutshell tbh. Congrats on Samsora for this upset, proving why Peach is indeed top 20!