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Regarding the Lucina vs Marth debate: I've seen pretty much every theoretical argument why Marth is better than Lucina. Going forward, I'd like to see those proposing that Marth should be several spots higher than Lucina to provide some comparative MU charts. If Marth truly is several spots higher than Lucina, then his MU chart should reflect that. If it turns out that Lucina and Marth have basically the same MU chart, then it'll be hard to justify Marth being much higher than Lucina.
I think some of her biggest issues are with movement speed are related to chargable projectiles. It's relativelity easy to get full charges against Corrin, though eventually she'll find an opening and approach you. This is one of the reasons why characters like Mewtwo and Samus likely go even with Corrin. Still, it's not really that bad.
I do think Marth and Lucina should be paired together; they play nearly identical with the exception of a few confirms iicr Marth has jab>Ftilt and Lucy has Nair>Fsmash. There might be more, idk.
With that said, Marth is the better of the 2 and the Link MU shows this. Link loses to Lucina -.5 and Marth -1 imo. Marth has good enough movement and curving normals to space fine. There's 1 place where Marcina can reach Link and he can't reach them: tipper distance.
I'LL ADDMORE WHEN MY DUMB Cat stops walking on the keyboard.
Can we appreciate for a moment that the only one who took a single set from Cosmos at Pax Arena was Dabuz. Cosmos is such an incredible player. He seems to have a Dabuz problem though (which is understandable, Dabuz is crazy good and has a good shot at top 3 this season).
With that said, Marth is the better of the 2 and the Link MU shows this. Link loses to Lucina -.5 and Marth -1 imo. Marth has good enough movement and curving normals to space fine.
I agree that there may be some slight differences in some MUs, some Marth does slightly better in, some Lucina. Pretty small differences though, not enough to even justify having Lucina 2 spots lower than Marth. I think Lucina is probably 1 spot lower than Marth at top level.
Yes, and Cosmos only lost to Dabuz, no one else. Cosmos' run was pretty insane: He took one set off Dabuz, Larry Lurr, Mistake, Samsora, Marss, Javi, and Karna, and two sets from Captain Zack. He lost three sets to Dabuz (once in pools, once in Winner's Finals, and once in Grand Finals, set 2, game 5). Cosmos was 1 game away from winning Pax Arena (which was fairly stacked). He's such an incredible player.
I have one question. ZeRo dropped Diddy Kong so what is his future most likely? He is guarenteed dropping out of S tier at this point though, but maybe top five. ZeRo was the one who really held the torch for Diddy and set him up to be top three. I feel like Diddy has no top representatives and Sheik might be above him. He is still a neutral monster though, but he is no longer the best at high play.
Captain Zack did, I saw it live.
Also, Mistake was versing someone ( might be Javi ) and he SD'd multiple times. As someone mentioned it was probably because of frustration.
Cosmos was so close. Dabuz adjusts well and he spots your habits extremely quickly. Cosmos had several things that I noticed that got him into trouble:
1.) He kept air dodging into the ground.
2.) He kept panic air dodging.
3.) He didn’t abuse pin enough.
4.) He kept staling his Uair.
5.) He kept rolling in predictably.
6.) He didn’t mix up his tomahawks enough, this is related to 3.
7.) He stopped consistently trying to contest Dabuz’s return to the ledge.
Otherwise, he was much improved for the Grand Finals sets.
I have one question. ZeRo dropped Diddy Kong so what is his future most likely? He is guarenteed dropping out of S tier at this point though, but maybe top five. ZeRo was the one who really held the torch for Diddy and set him up to be top three. I feel like Diddy has no top representatives and Sheik might be above him. He is still a neutral monster though, but he is no longer the best at high play.
Diddy Kong still has strong players like MVD and Zinoto, although his representation will obviously be significantly worse without ZeRo. This doesn't really change Diddy's strength, though, and Diddy will continue to do really well at various regional scenes, even if we won't see as many Diddy's in top 8 at majors. I highly doubt Diddy will drop out of top 5.
Diddy has been ranked 9, 1, 2, 3 (basically tied for 2). The first 4BR list had a very different meta, with different patches and no DLC. Diddy should remain in top 5.
Maybe it's just from me playing a character that's super light, but Corrin's UAir is actually a really dumb kill move for its speed and range. With NAir and Fair also hitting characters vertically I don't see much of a reason to use UAir to juggle past 50-60% or so. Corrin's landing traps are really scary too between Counter Surge, Dragon Lunge, and Dragon Fang Shot (and just plain NAir). I'd want to keep a kill move as reliable as UAir as fresh as possible, personally.
I don’t get this whole “Diddy is going to drop out of top 5” or “ZeRo carried Diddy” that I keep hearing. Excluding him from the current PGR, there are still 5 other Diddy Kongs on it. Just looking at results that have been posted throughout this thread and the other thread that is stickied, he is not singlehandedly responsible for Diddy Kong consistently being in the top 5 of Koopa’s results project for over a year.
Results aside, we all know his theory is just bonkers too.
Nair hits the same area (and more), is a frame faster, has more active frames to catch opponents, and the more you stale it, the better it is for comboing. Cosmos has a tendency to use Uair in situations where Nair is a better option.
Am I the only one who thinks taking notable player’s MU charts at face value as proof of a character’s tier list position/viability is unreliable?(Woo that’s a mouthful)
Time and time again we’ve seen questionable reasoning from excellent players regarding how good (or bad) their character’s MUs are . Like, remember Lord Mix’s MU chart where Bowser beat pretty much everyone?
I’d at least try to question why they came to their conclusions before using it as justification for a position.
Yeah. I feel like basing tier lists right off of professional's opinion on the character is unreliable.
A reason why I like using the official lists as an outline for my personal lists, is that they (most of the time) balance representation, matchups, and results. If the tier list, for example, is just based off of results and representation, Ness would be a top 25 or even top 20 character, and Diddy Kong would be the best character in the game. That said though, the official lists does have the noticeable flaws. I feel like in the current mindset of top players is just basing characters off of potential and almost nothing more. In the current list, the best example I can think of is Lucas rising to 29th despite having slightly worse results than in 2016, and having merely average strength and weaknesses, representation, and results.
Question: Since Umabura T.A.T is part of the PGR v5, is PAX Areana South 2018 part of it as well?
Yeah, that MU chart was waaaay optimistic. I don't think many people take MU charts at face value though, quite often you see discussion about various MUs and such.
When it comes down to it, there are a few things that matter more than others. How well a character does versus other meta relevant characters is the most important factor when rating a character (ie the MU spread). I would say that there should be some discounting for lower tiers: In practice, anyone below top 20-25 or so would matter a lot less than anyone in top 10 or top 15. I won't consider Lucina since she's basically Marth (and both Marth and Corrin go even with her anyway).
So then, who is better, Corrin or Marth/Lucina? To answer this question, I will look at the MU charts of the three most notable Corrin players, as well as the three most notable Marth players. I'll start with Marth.
MkLeo has Marth slightly winning against Mario, Mega Man, Lucario, Peach, Toon Link, Villager, and Ryu (out of notable characters). He goes even with Cloud, Fox, Luigi, Greninja, Pikachu, Olimar, Captain Falcon, and Corrin. He loses to Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, ZSS, Donkey Kong, Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Bayonetta, and Mewtwo. Bowser is his worst MU (although MkLeo doesn't say whether it's 45:55 or 40:60, though I assume it's just an extra hard 45:55).
That's 7 winning MUs, 8 even MUs, and 10 losing MUs. The only top tiers he wins against are Mario and Ryu (if we consider them top tiers), while he loses to Diddy Kong, ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Bayonetta, and Mewtwo.
I let all my emotions into this mu chart
have fun marcinas LOL
some of these mu's lucina makes it alot easier so not totally accurate
Mr. E has Marth slightly winning against Mario, Lucario, Peach, Toon Link, and Villager. He goes even with Luigi, Greninja, Captain Falcon, Corrin, Mega Man, and Donkey Kong. He loses to Meta Knight, Diddy Kong (significantly), ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Bayonetta, Mewtwo, Bowser, Ryu, Pikachu, Olimar, Fox, and Cloud.
That's 5 winning MUs, 6 even MUs, and 14 losing MUs. The only top tiers he wins against is Mario, while he loses to Diddy Kong, ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Bayonetta, Mewtwo, Cloud, Fox, and Ryu.
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Pugwest has Marth slightly winning against Mario, Lucario, Peach, Toon Link, Villager, Mega Man, Greninja, and Luigi. He goes even with Olimar, Captain Falcon, Corrin, Ryu, Bayonetta, Bowser, and Sonic. He loses to Meta Knight, Diddy Kong (-2), ZSS, Donkey Kong, Sheik, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Pikachu, Fox, and Cloud.
That's 8 winning MUs, 7 even MUs, and 10 losing MUs. The only top tier he wins against is Mario, while he loses to Diddy Kong, ZSS, Sheik, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Fox, and Cloud.
So that's Marth. That's an average of 6.66 winning MUs in top 25 (or so), and 11.33 losing MUs. He loses, on average, 9 MUs vs top tiers. That's... Not very promising.
Cosmos chart is a bit interesting because he uses -0.5 and +0.5 for MUs that are often considered solidly losing or solidly winning. In order to reflect this, I will post them as is:
Corrin goes even with ZSS, Marth, Meta Knight, Mega Man, Sonic, Greninja, Ryu, Mewtwo.
Corrin loses -0.5 to Cloud and Diddy Kong.
Corrin loses -1 to Sheik, Fox, and Bayonetta.
That's 11 +0.5 MUs, 8 even MUs, 2 -0.5 MUs, and 3 -1 MUs.
Summary vs top tiers: Very slight (0.5) wins against Rosalina and Mario. Very slight (-0.5) losses to Cloud and Diddy Kong. Slight losses to Sheik, Fox, and Bayonetta.
First off, Ryuga has acknowledged that the Greninja placement is in error and is supposed to be +1.
Corrin wins against Mega Man (+2), Toon Link, Pikachu, Lucario, Villager, Olimar. Corrin goes even with Mario, Luigi, Peach, Rosalina, ZSS, Marth, Meta Knight, Sonic, Mewtwo, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Bayonetta, Captain Falcon, Fox, and Ryu. Corrin loses to Sheik, Cloud, and Diddy Kong.
That's 6 winning MUs, 15 even MUs, and 3 losing MUs. While she doesn't win against any top tier, she only loses to three (Sheik, Cloud, and Diddy Kong), according to this MU chart.
[
Decided to make a Corrin MU Chart. Even+/- used cuz 0.5's look dumb but I wanted to show that there was inbetween still. Pretty good char :) pic.twitter.com/a6JdOPUhUM
According to Frozen, Corrin wins against Olimar (+2), Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Toon Link, Pikachu, Lucario, Villager, Mega Man. She goes even with Mario, Rosalina, Greninja, Sonic, Bayonetta, Donkey Kong, Marth, Ryu, Meta Knight, Mewtwo, Captain Falcon, and ZSS. She loses to Fox, Diddy Kong, Cloud, and Sheik (with Sheik being the hardest).
That's 9 winning MUs, 12 even MUs, and 4 losing MUs. No top tier wins (although Mario, Rosalina, Sonic, and Bayonetta are Even+), and four top tier losses (Fox, Diddy Kong, Cloud, and Sheik).
So that's Corrin. The average of Ryuga and Frozen's MU chart are: 7.5 winning MUs, 13.5 even MUs, and 3.5 losing MUs. Compare that with Marth's average of 6.66 winning MUs and 11.33 losing MUs and Corrin looks pretty good.
What if we include Cosmos' chart? Well, if we consider +/-0.5 MUs as even, then that changes Corrin's average to: 5 winning MUs, 16 even MUs, and 3.33 losing MUs. If we consider them as actually winning and losing, then that changes Corrin's average to: 8.66 winning MUs, 11.66 even MUs, and 4 losing MUs.
Some notes on Corrin: Some of the MUs can go either way. Many Cloud players, when asked, will say that the Corrin MU is even or slight disadvantage for Corrin, so it's possible that it's an even MU. There has been some talk about Diddy potentially being even as well. VoiD even put Corrin as "Even or slight favor" in his Sheik MU chart, although Corrin going even with Sheik seems a bit unlikely. Corrin has the potential to beat Mario, Rosalina, and/or Sonic in top tier, although all of these might be even (Sonic is probably the least likely).
Still though, Corrin losing 2-5 MUs, doing great overall against high tiers and high-mid tiers, and winning 0-3 MUs against top tiers is pretty solid.
Let's think about it. The two arguments against Corrin being placed high on the tier list seem to be the following: #1: She doesn't have results. #2: Her poor mobility brings her down.
#1 is blatantly false now. Now that Cosmos is able to travel Corrin is a pretty significant threat at majors. Even before we could see Corrin players such as Ryuga and Frozen take sets off top players. Cosmos, the best solo Corrin main, has better results now than Mr. E, the best solo Marth/Lucina main. Sure, there are more Marth/Lucina players than there are Corrin players, but since when has that been a good criterium for determining which character is better? With ZeRo gone, it's quite likely that Cosmos will end up getting better results than whoever the current best Diddy will turn out to be. The "Corrin has no results"-argument doesn't hold water anymore. I don't think it ever really did.
#2, well... Is this actually the case? I mean, she'd be top 5 easily if she had Cloud's mobility, but even with her current mobility she seems to do quite well in many MUs, slightly winning them or at least going even. Cosmos has pretty good results against some of Corrins worst MUs (Fox, Sheik, Diddy Kong, and Cloud). She's not Kirby, or Jigglypuff, or Ganondorf, and her tools work quite well despite her subpar mobility.
So, yes. I do believe that Corrin is a bit better than Marth.
I’m willing to believe Corrin is super good, but I’m not really getting why from this post. Yeah, their players think they’re good MU-wise, but with no real explanation as why they win or lose said MUs.
I’m willing to believe Corrin is super good, but I’m not really getting why from this post. Yeah, their players think they’re good MU-wise, but with no real explanation as why they win or lose said MUs.
And that’s why (even top) player MU charts are generally bad. All of these charts are basically an exercise in question begging until the player explains why.
“Bayo has no losing MUs” is the biggest example of begging the question in the meta, btw.
I’m willing to believe Corrin is super good, but I’m not really getting why from this post. Yeah, their players think they’re good MU-wise, but with no real explanation as why they win or lose said MUs.
"no real explanation", most/all of these MUs have been discussed at length before, either on Discord, in one of the Competitive Insight threads, or Reddit, even (though Reddit not so much). Going through even a single MU would take a looong time. Think of that post as kind of a macro-view, while discussing each particular MU would be a micro-view.
I do think it's noteworthy that the top Marth players have a more negative view of Marth's MU chart compared to the top Corrin players. This also seems to hold true for other Marth players as well: If you look at, say, Discord Marth MU charts, Marth seem to end up having quite a few losing MUs, generally more than Corrin would. Either way, I think you could make a strong case for Marth being better than Corrin still (mostly by arguing that these MU charts are too pessimistic). Marth is a good character still, even if Corrin might be better.
I wonder if MkLeo will start using his Corrin more? Perhaps Cosmos inspired him?
And that’s why (even top) player MU charts are generally bad. All of these charts are basically an exercise in question begging until the player explains why.
Frozen is quite active on the Corrin Discord and has explained his reasoning for many of the MU placements. Other top players will often explain if you just ask them, too.
While I generally don't engage in these discussions at the risk of sounding biased or rude to Lucas players (Mother brothers are cool with me) People have been saying Lucas is better than Ness and has so much potential since 2015 yet this still hasn't been shown and it's getting to the point this is starting to sound like Yoshi story (so much hidden potential that never gets shown) now I used to believe this was the case when Lucas came out as well but I haven't for a while. And to be honest the two characters are so unlike that they shouldn't even be being compared but alas...
First Lucas does not have a better combo game than Ness. Those cool Footstool combos and locks while good if you can pull them off are not easy, requires you to read DI and more importantly requires you to grab the opponent first with a 12 frame grab that's very punishable on whiff, and Lucas lacks a way to actually approach you to threaten you with this outside of Zair. Unless you do something stupid on Lucas' shield you should not be getting grabbed by him that much. Outside of Footstool stuff he has some good aerial combos but those are easily escaped with SDI and do not rack up damage like Ness can. Ness can rack up a lot of damage very quickly with his much stronger and safer moves and much better grab.
Another thing you mentioned was linearity. Lucas is far more linear than Ness could ever be. Lucas has to zone because he doesn't have an approach option, he doesn't have the CQC game than Ness does to afford people being ontop of him so while he may do better than Ness against characters that prefer playing at a distance any character that forces his approach or can zone break well can completely mitigate his zoning options and expose what little tools he has after that, once Lucas is forced to approach it's so much more difficult for him to regain advantage than Ness especially on platform stages because he lacks a threatening vertical attack option, you see how helpless Mario looks when Bayo is plat camping him? Same deal with Lucas.
I'm not trying to trash Lucas but this notation he's better then Ness hasn't been proven yet and it likely won't ever because it's not a thing. Like I mentioned before both Ness and Lucas' top reps do not travel much at all but despite that Ness maintains much stronger results than Lucas and this has always been the case.
I was cycling through the comments of this thread, as this one I liked. I couldn't put why this comment any better myself. I noticed as well that Lucas is basically the new Yoshi: people claiming that the character has so much potential (even before the buffs) upon it's release, and praising the character at every way possible, despite not achieving close to the results people have expected ever since it's release. Like Yoshi, Lucas received good buffs in the transition but also received quite a mix of nerfs as well. I'd admit that I think that Brawl Lucas is tiny bit underrated, but sometimes I often ask myself why Ness vs Lucas in SSB4 is even a discussion.
On the Corrin vs Marth comments, I think who will be better is only a test of time. Both are really super good characters, but I think their (and Lucina's) tier placements are accurate for the time being. The same goes with Diddy, his future placement is a test of time.
Also, who do you guys think is going to win Genesis!
I don’t get this whole “Diddy is going to drop out of top 5” or “ZeRo carried Diddy” that I keep hearing. Excluding him from the current PGR, there are still 5 other Diddy Kongs on it. Just looking at results that have been posted throughout this thread and the other thread that is stickied, he is not singlehandedly responsible for Diddy Kong consistently being in the top 5 of Koopa’s results project for over a year.
Results aside, we all know his theory is just bonkers too.
I never said Diddy Kong was not top five but I kind of did say that "ZeRo carried Diddy". Diddy Kong will not majorly drop, but will he still be the same? Probably not, but who knows. I think he could still be third but he might drop from S tier, but this is just speculation. Overall, I agree with you.
Character interactions aren't an exact science and we as humans are terrible, terrible at collecting and organizing data. Police can interview witnesses of the same event and get different stories. But that doesn't mean we should dismiss tier list/MU charts from good players either. You have to take them with a grain of salt. The more people sampled, the more accurate any study tends to be. We can at least get a rough impression of MUs.
Frozen is quite active on the Corrin Discord and has explained his reasoning for many of the MU placements. Other top players will often explain if you just ask them, too
Okay, I know you are trying to be helpful, and I generally like your posts, so no offense, really, but reposting what essentially boils down to a bunch of broad opinions without context is not helpful.
As an example, whenever I bring up a top players opinion about a certain MU, I don’t just say, “Captain Zack thinks Bayo/Fox is even.” I also either paraphrase or quote his logic. From there, we can have an actual discussion.
If you don’t provide player context, we are essentially guessing the logic behind it, which doesn’t even let a real discussion start. I’m aware that these players may post their opinions in various places, but if you are going to bring up their conclusions in a comprehensive post, please at least offer their arguments.
I don’t have the time to track down Frozen, or Cosmos, or whoever and ask them, “hey, why do you think Corrin beats X?” wait for a reply, take that reply back here, and continue a discussion that is already over.
Basically, neither myself nor anyone else is going to do the legwork for your argument.
Edit: you don’t have to go through every MU. Just the meta relevant ones, or odd ones.
Edit 2: Rizen
- I’m not saying to dismiss them out of hand. But on a scale of usefulness, a top player MU chart, by itself, is toward the bottom of the scale. They gain significantly in use if they have some argument with them.
They gain even more use if that argument isn’t just something like “Pikachu trashes them offstage. +1.”
Okay, I know you are trying to be helpful, and I generally like your posts, so no offense, really, but reposting what essentially boils down to a bunch of broad opinions without context is not helpful.
As an example, whenever I bring up a top players opinion about a certain MU, I don’t just say, “Captain Zack thinks Bayo/Fox is even.” I also either paraphrase or quote his logic. From there, we can have an actual discussion.
If you don’t provide player context, we are essentially guessing the logic behind it, which doesn’t even let a real discussion start. I’m aware that these players may post their opinions in various places, but if you are going to bring up their conclusions in a comprehensive post, please at least offer their arguments.
I don’t have the time to track down Frozen, or Cosmos, or whoever and ask them, “hey, why do you think Corrin beats X?” wait for a reply, take that reply back here, and continue a discussion that is already over.
Basically, neither myself nor anyone else is going to do the legwork for your argument.
I understand where you're coming from, but do note that I covered, what, 25 characters or so? And that's for both Cosmos and Marth. That's not realistic for one person to do. I do believe that Corrin might be stronger than Marth. I mainly believe she's stronger than Marth because I believe that she does better than Marth in several important MUs. Now, of course, as several people have stated, MU charts can be unreliable. I believe that my post did a decent illustration
I will, of course, acknowledge that I could be wrong. I, like most people in this thread, have overrated certain characters in the past and underrated others. I might very well be overestimating Corrin and/or overestimating Marth, but then again, perhaps I'm right to hold her in such high regard (and, keep in mind, I still think Marth is top 15, so I wouldn't exactly say I hold him in low regards).
I suppose I could offer some concrete examples of matchups that I believe Corrin does better (at top levels of play) than Marth: Pikachu, Bowser, Donkey Kong, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Bayonetta, Meta Knight, Rosalina, and Sonic. For what it's worth, Corrin is better vs Ness too (poor guy). Marth seems to do better than Corrin in some notable matchups though, such as Fox, Cloud, and Samus.
I never said Diddy Kong was not top five but I kind of did say that "ZeRo carried Diddy". Diddy Kong will not majorly drop, but will he still be the same? Probably not, but who knows. I think he could still be third but he might drop from S tier, but this is just speculation. Overall, I agree with you.
It wasn’t necessarily directed at you, so I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth. It was more directed towards the general public. Your post just reminded me about my opinion on the subject is all.
I wonder why there was little discussion around Esam saying that Bayonetta was number one on his latest tier list video. When he got to the end of his list, all he said was that Bayonetta is broken and ended the video.
Do we just ignore that, accept his opinion, or give it no attention?
I wonder why there was little discussion around Esam saying that Bayonetta was number one on his latest tier list video. When he got to the end of his list, all he said was that Bayonetta is broken and ended the video.
Do we just ignore that, accept his opinion, or give it no attention?
He did seem very vague about it. If she was "broken", then why isn't she taking the majority of top spots in tournaments like 64 Pikachu, Melee Fox, or (especially) Brawl Meta Knight. Can any of guys ask him on his twitter about this?
That may help, but watching the end segment of the video again, gave me the impression that Bayonetta being broken is implied and should be common sense to community by the now.
I really expected that to be a hot topic some weeks ago.
I understand where you're coming from, but do note that I covered, what, 25 characters or so? And that's for both Cosmos and Marth. That's not realistic for one person to do. I do believe that Corrin might be stronger than Marth. I mainly believe she's stronger than Marth because I believe that she does better than Marth in several important MUs. Now, of course, as several people have stated, MU charts can be unreliable. I believe that my post did a decent illustration
Yeah, so I mean, this right here is basically your argument. It’s not even that Corrin does better than Marth in the top 25. So let’s boil it down:
I suppose I could offer some concrete examples of matchups that I believe Corrin does better (at top levels of play) than Marth: Pikachu, Bowser, Donkey Kong, Rosalina, Mewtwo, Bayonetta, Meta Knight, Rosalina, and Sonic. For what it's worth, Corrin is better vs Ness too (poor guy). Marth seems to do better than Corrin in some notable matchups though, such as Fox, Cloud, and Samus.
Awwww yissss, this is the actual part of the discussion that matters, and the whole point of my post in the first place:
Why do you think Corrin does better than Marth in those MUs? I mean, you can just focus on the top 10ish in that list: Rosa, Sonic, Bayo, Mewtwo. Shoot, you can just repost/paraphrase something that Frozen said about it.
It is most likely because they do not care or do not agree. If you see that someone has left a like on your post or even merely quotes it, then chances are they are down with what you said. Do not be dismayed; it is not like it is a popularity contest.
I don't; I just do not think there is a lot of information to talk about Lucas besides a few common things we have already talked about. I also think since the thread tends to focus on the top tiers mostly, they get the most spotlight and discussion time.
There is a random character thread that got started recently so we can talk about 2 different characters per week instead of the usual trying to start a discussion about a character and if nobody has input on said character besides generalizations the topic either gets few responses or none at all.
The character thread seems to have it's highs and lows. Some characters get talked about a lot while others do not. So kind-of the same thing going on here.
Edit: You can try the character discord servers for conversation about them from players who play them a-lot (I talk there a-lot!). I like trying to start conversations here to see what people think.
Usually for my character, I make long posts of stuff about them since I see little conversation about them. My posts either get liked or ignored because I post too much stuff and sometimes it goes unchallanged.
I guess you can try again later when the current topic seems like it has come to a conclusion; but right now you got me talking about Lucas so I'm all ears.
Part of it may be that you're usually posting asking about how the forum works (which is fine, since you're new here), but those aren't really discussion questions or answers. (Also, I think you mentioned character emotes? type :4(character): to get them. You can also scroll over other ones in the thread to see how to type them, that's how I learned them). This thread can also be pretty tricky to get into at first, but keep at it.
Rizen essentially summed up where match ups start to differ; when proper spacing is in consideration.
Also Lucina and Marth may have an [near] identical match up chart, this doesn't necessitate exact same spot though. Match up charts aren't a reflection of win%s, we don't have that data in a fair testing environment, nor will we likely ever. If both have a slew of evens/0s, but Marth wins 1-5 games more per 100 than Lucina, we aren't likely to make that a +1. The reverse is also feasible.
Match ups where Luci theoretically will do better over 100 games - ones where rage is impactful (i.e. rage fsmash/usmash being beautiful) and better trading/yolo hits against light characters (like vs Pikachu or Sheik).
Match ups where Marth will theoretically do better - where, how, or whenever spacing is very relevant (its always relevant, please understand the differentiation) in neutral -> i.e. the better the player base gets at smash, less amounts of people going 'spacing can't be relied upon'.
It's particularly apparent in most sword character match ups. Roy loses (or has his weaknesses exploited horribly) to both Luci and Marth, he is slightly shorter range than both, so in situations of both characters swinging well spaced, Roy starts flying into a terrible disadvantageous position / being in KO% a lot faster than he will vs Luci.
In neutral, this match up should almost never ever not be at tipper range. This happens naturally within a reasonable amount of competence from both players (Roy has to rely on his mobility to out-midrange, just the odds are firmly in luci/marfs favor). Other match ups where spacing is less important in neutral/isn't the foremost win condition it'll take longer before we start seeing the result of mastery of movement/microspacing across the entire cast.
Same thing applies Marth v Lucina of course. There is no alternative play pattern/strategy that I'm aware of that doesn't result in this match up always having it edged out by Marth. Of course as spacing is important, even a slightly better player using Luci could consistently come out on top.
But using the opposing argument/statement of 'both play the same' (tbf, something I only tend to hear from non-Marth/Luci players), then it would seem likely that perfectly evenly skilled players doing Marth v Luci would result in Marth winning a lot more than a 0/even match up would indicate. Being 10% stronger in 90% of interactions - the long-term result should almost always be the same (the phrase 'the house [casino] always wins' comes to mind, despite their win odds being between 1-5% higher per hand than the player on things like Blackjack, it always rings true).
Avatars/display pictures are an essential science of discourse in forum space.
You're seemingly mature and well written, but perhaps are lacking in helpful/relevant statements that can be commented on or discussed.
Don't worry, people only ignore (consistent) idiots. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it.
Part of it may be that you're usually posting asking about how the forum works (which is fine, since you're new here), but those aren't really discussion questions or answers. (Also, I think you mentioned character emotes? type :4(character): to get them. You can also scroll over other ones in the thread to see how to type them, that's how I learned them). This thread can also be pretty tricky to get into at first, but keep at it.
Avatars/display pictures are an essential science of discourse in forum space.
You're seemingly mature and well written, but perhaps are lacking in helpful/relevant statements that can be commented on or discussed.
Don't worry, people only ignore (consistent) idiots. I'm sure you'll get the hang of it.
Well I probably had more of a bone to pick with the original post you quoted, echoing it is a weird thing; people are more likely to have responded to the original post.
Out of the things they said -
The CQC game being worse than Ness - I don't know how, or where that comes from. Lucas jab (or is it dtilt, pretty sure its jab) hits behind him and sets up into a grab 50/50 or if continued on the final hit of jab tends to set up for a tech chase.
The grab being punishable on whiff to me is like, punishable on whiff IF YOU READ IT. The combined pressure of safe landing aerials (combined with a cheesy crouching jab), reasonably safe rising options, pokes like ftilt being safe on block... eh
It's good.
On the point of wherever he's overrated and the hidden potential argument is bogus/old and people are biased -
I think both characters are relatively similar in viability, I do think Lucas can go further because he does not have the same off stage issues as Ness does - issues which arguably make him unviable.
People hyping up the footstool combo stuff - same spiel with every character who finds a footstool set up - it's bull **** to rate a character based on that and not too many high-top level competitive players ever care about them (its just one very situational advantage state outcome which looks like it could deal MASSIVE DAMAGE, but so could you naturally, just extending your advantageous state through smart play).
I think Lucas having a consistent dthrow follow up, including at KO% on a majority of characters; even though its behind a 12frame grab with THE SAME END LAG compared to the fastest in the game vs the other tether grabs who are monstrously more compared to the fastest _wew, pause_ is a lot more important and relevant to their viability than footstool stuff.
Again, echoing someones post unless its relevant to another discussion going on and not adding too much to it is a bit weird.
Dabuz is looking really good. He seems to have taken his general adaptation against Bayo and applied it universally. By that, I mean that he is consistently the most anti-air focused player I’ve seen.
He throws out Usmashes like they are on fire. Caught Cosmos lingering on pin, doing short hops, and generally being anywhere in the air. It’s an effective tactic, even without Luma, the Rosa hitbox starts on frame 8 and has intangibility, much like Sheiks.
For comparison, Mario’s is frame 9.
What’s probably worse is that he is getting really ridiculous at the ledge. He dumpstered Cosmos half a dozen times across their sets. Even Void had issues getting back to the stage.
One thing that left me stunned was MVD using his shield at the ledge to push Bayo away preventing her from grabbing it. Is this a consistent set-up against Witch Twist similar to the "Marth killer" in Melee? For those who didn't watch, here's the clip: https://clips.twitch.tv/ConfidentShyManateeFloof
Btw, Dabuz really has one of the cleanest gameplan of any player. And Minordeth said, his anti air game is top notch and his use of PP for microspacing is really amazing. He chooses options that are very difficult to perform many times because he is incredibly good at decision making, I even noticed he tried a kill set-up in LL nair > ftilt > upair sometimes. Good stuff also from everyone else, Cosmos' adaptation for WF to GF was something else.
Dabuz is looking really good. He seems to have taken his general adaptation against Bayo and applied it universally. By that, I mean that he is consistently the most anti-air focused player I’ve seen.
He throws out Usmashes like they are on fire. Caught Cosmos lingering on pin, doing short hops, and generally being anywhere in the air. It’s an effective tactic, even without Luma, the Rosa hitbox starts on frame 8 and has intangibility, much like Sheiks.
For comparison, Mario’s is frame 9.
What’s probably worse is that he is getting really ridiculous at the ledge. He dumpstered Cosmos half a dozen times across their sets. Even Void had issues getting back to the stage.
This is true. Daubz in Smash 4 is like Hungrybox to Melee, very defensive but can be aggressive by ensuring people do not make it back on stage. Unlike Melee Jigglypuff, Rosalina is actually hard to truly master. Also Luma is another story, Luma is just one of the most jank and bonkers things in Smash 4 ( And think about Dabuz ). Dabuz will act very evasive when Luma is not around, like grabbing them and putting them off to the side. Also the Luma helps Dabuz put in his Up smash attacks some times. It is no wonder why ZeRo thinks Rosalina is top three. ( Albeit Rosalina is fine where she is for now ).
I've been thinking a good deal about Roy as of late, but my thoughts are a bit disorganized. Hopefully the Roy experts here can help clarify some things.
A question I started off with: Why did Komorikiri pick Roy (over Cloud, Sonic, even Marth) vs. Bayonetta at 2GG Championship?
The first and simple reason might be grab combos, but I think there's another aspect worth looking at, which is how Roy's hitboxes work.
When talking about Marth vs. Roy, it comes down to "Marth wants to be at the sword's tip range, Roy wants to be at the sword's base range," obviously. But one thing that doesn't get brought up as often is how much more forgiving Roy's hitboxes are.
In most cases, Marth and Roy's sword will have three hitboxes. But whereas Marth's hitboxes tend to be lke this:
So that means, I think(?), while Marth excels at sword range and Roy excels up close, the space between those two points leans more in Roy's favor.
But another element of their sweetspot size/position differences is that it translates to their gameplay and game plans outside of the basic "Far if Marth, Close if Roy." Specifically, it means the nature of how they KO changes as well.
Marth, due to the precision required for his tippers, is a character where different attacks are ideal at different percents. F-smash for low-mid percents, then the gap gets slowly filled with tipper f-tilt, tipper bair and up-air, up-smash, etc., all the way until Marth's up throw starts to kill. You kind of pick the right killing tool for the right percent.
Roy, on the other hand, has either larger sweetspots or middle of the ground "sweet 'n' sour" spots. This not only means he can potentially cover than Marth can with greater effectiveness (a greater chance of landing a KO overall), but that, as Roy inflicts more damage, more and more of his sword becomes an effective killing tool. Basically, Marth f-tilt will always need to tipper to get that kill, whereas Roy middle hitbox gradually comes into play:
It's almost as if Roy's potential slowly gets unlocked over the course of the game.
I think having those more forgiving hitboxes, and the gradual strengthening of those middle hitboxes, are a significant factor in Komo's choice to go Roy. Bayonetta has some wonky hitboxes, but she's not exactly a disjoint character in the swordy sense, so Roy also doesn't get outspaced.
Of course, it's not like Roy is inherently a better choice (seeing as how MKLeo prefers Marth vs. Bayo). However, I think Roy meshes well with Komorikiri's style. I feel like you can definitely see a lot of Komo's Cloud and Sonic in how he plays Roy: the way he moves back and forth, his ability to vary his bad recovery to get back more than you'd expect, and just the way he uses aerials. It feels like spacing Roy aerials isn't that different from Sonic bair. And having a bigger, safer up-b in Blazer vs. Cloud's Climhazzard means Komo's ability to mix up his recovery becomes that much more effective. There are a couple of times where Komo will just blazer and hit Bayonetta as she's trying to prepare to intercept the recovery, beating out whatever hitboxes Bayo decided to throw out.
In short, I think the reason Komo went Roy to fight Bayonetta is a combination of the character's grab game, the fact that his effective "sweet(ish) spots" come into play more and more as the game progresses, and that Komo's experiences with his other mains translate over to Roy well. If any Roys would like to tell me how on/off the mark I am, feel free.
