Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The_Bookworm]

Here's a tip: there's a reply button in the corner of everyone's post that'll alert them when you respond to them, like what I did here. Enjoy your stay.

Also, here's some food for thought: Since we now know who the top 10 is, there is 32 different character represented on the PGR, and maybe an additional one if Nairo's bowser is included. That's over half the cast.

Thanks!

 

[Locke 06]

Maaaan, this is a fun discussion lol. Really in-depth and thorough.

But anyways,

My shield comment specifically addresses Dtilt and DA, arguing that they’re still hard reads no matter how easier it is to read people’s movement.

This discussion is so one-sided in knowledge it's really hard to read.

Best foxtrot, good perfect pivot, active ground hitboxes in neutral stance w/range and always threatening a burst option in either dash attack or dtilt. The dash mixup is not dash attack/grab, but also cross slash (or the invincible LCS), rising up air/DAir/NAir, or the faster invincible limit climhazard.

Dash attack and dtilt are not always hard reads. They punish movement. Dtilt punishes dash forward or a landing, dash attack catches short hops with its giant hitbox. The opponent isn't standing still, because if he does, Cloud spaces back air, FAir, or NAir because he's allowed to jump in with the right spacing where the opponent cannot air-air.

Also, if the opponent is standing still and not trying to hit cloud at all, Cloud gets limit, spends it, and then gets more limit. This is why movement is important vs Cloud.

What Shaya is saying is that a character's rising aerial game is a natural part of their ground game, akin to instant overheads in traditional fighters.

What Cloud lacks is a traditional safe ground poke due to not having a swordsman dtilt, but that just makes his ground game incomplete, instead of "mediocre." Cloud dash attack and jab together is better than half the cast's ground game.


Edit: oh, his smashes are extremely good too. Fsmash counters dtilt pokes and spotdodges at dash grab distance, dsmash is very fast, and upsmash is huge.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Thanks!

Hi and welcome to Smashboards!
We appreciate the enthusiasm and the fact you're willing to contribute to the discussion, so here are some tips/notes:
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[Rizen]

No he can't, charizard can angle his flamethrower upwards to intercept SH pikmin toss, does everyone forget that flamethrower and fire breath can be angled? It seems like everyone does.

No, I meant can pikmin be lobbed over flame thrower even angled up. The thing about FT is it's great on the ledge and some zoning situations but it's not a wall to projectile spam. Olimar can simple wait a few seconds for FT to sputter out.

 

[Lord Dio]

Also, here's some food for thought: Since we now know who the top 10 is, there is 32 different character represented on the PGR, and maybe an additional one if Nairo's bowser is included. That's over half the cast.

question is, how many of those are a player's main?
How many unique secondaries comprise that list of 32?

tfw roy finally makes pgr thanks to komo

 

[Deleted member]

question is, how many of those are a player's main?
How many unique secondaries comprise that list of 32?

tfw roy finally makes pgr thanks to komo

Nice to see Roy making it into PGR.
Remember when we all thought Roy was so good that even ZeRo thought he would be the best sword fighter in the game? Oh how wrong we were.
Sure Roy may have loads of problems like his approach and his garbage recovery, but I feel like he will continue to rise. The highest I could see him is top or middle of D, but we will have to wait for that. Roy's match ups might be better than we think they are actually. I personally think his only hard disadvantages are Diddy Kong, Sheik and Bayonetta. Who knows how high Roy will rise?

 

[MercuryPenny]

roy is basically falcon with inverted marth powers

 

[WiFi]

Roy is not bad. He still does have a disjoint, but it's useless. His kill power is actually insane for a character so fast, killing at percentages comparable to the heavies, Limit Cloud, Tippers, High Aura Lucario, Fox, ZSS, and Luma.
Everybody is so divided over what constitutes a top tier though, but we all know who the current top three are .

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Reply in quote

This discussion is so one-sided in knowledge it's really hard to read.

Show me

Best foxtrot, good perfect pivot, active ground hitboxes in neutral stance w/range and always threatening a burst option in either dash attack or dtilt. The dash mixup is not dash attack/grab, but also cross slash (or the invincible LCS), rising up air/DAir/NAir, or the faster invincible limit climhazard.

Zard has a better fox trot. Sheik has a better fox trot.

Cloud’s dash length is 11 frames, which most characters are. Zard is the same. Sheik is 8 frames.

Cloud’s running speed is 1.97, which is top 10. Zard is 2. Sheik is 2.016

I don’t have data for Cloud’s intial dash acceleration, but Zard’s is 0.5 just like every other character in the game. Can assume cloud is the same.
You’ll prolly think I’m vastly ignorant to just reference frame data when speaking on best fox trot while ignoring the options cloud holds when doing such (his rising aerials and various mix-ups on the ground with dash attack), but then we’ll be talking about more than just fox trot wouldn’t we? Movement in general is just an ambassador for the attacks, as they position us in the best places and angles to give us the best odds of landing them with the least risk and most reward; attaching Cloud’s quality options with his fox trot to argue it better is an unfair comparison when he could benefit from the attributes sheik or Zard holds (a frame 8 dash length would be broke, as well as faster runni- oh wait he already has that as limit. Nvm).

The dash mix-ups can’t be more than dash attack/grab because I’m not getting hit if the opponent decided to go to Uair, Cross Slash, Dair, Nair, or Limit Climhazard. After all, a 50/50 is where a player has to guess between two offensive options. I can shield it all if I want to.

Unless you’re also talking about the timing on when to shield, pushback, shield damage, etc... then you you’re gonna to have to further elaborate.


Dash attack and dtilt are not always hard reads. They punish movement. Dtilt punishes dash forward or a landing, dash attack catches short hops with its giant hitbox. The opponent isn't standing still, because if he does, Cloud spaces back air, FAir, or NAir because he's allowed to jump in with the right spacing where the opponent cannot air-air.

This is the same thing as saying Ryu’s shoryuken isn’t always a hard read, it punishes movement. It punishes jump forward, jump neutral, or jump back when in the corner. Fireball conditions opponents to jump, which leads into shoryuken.

Which is wrong. It’s still definitely high risk.

You Dtilt, hoping the opponent moves a certain way, or you DA, hoping the opponent moves this way or that way. What if you’re wrong? What happens then? The conditioning Cloud’s aerials do makes reads easier, but the risk attached is always the same.

Not a fan of hypothetical scenarios made to help one’s argument, since they leave out a thousand different variables firing on all cylinders. Why can’t I just roll within rhythm of cloud’s aerials? Why can’t I run under and use a intangible Usmash? Why can’t I walk forward instead of dash? Dashdance? Blah blah blah? This goes for your first sentence below as well. Who disengages for that long to allow cloud limit on the charge lol? Is he on the phone with someone?

Also, if the opponent is standing still and not trying to hit cloud at all, Cloud gets limit, spends it, and then gets more limit. This is why movement is important vs Cloud.

Seems like you’re assuming I’m arguing against the importance of movement vs cloud. Which I’m not.

What Shaya is saying is that a character's rising aerial game is a natural part of their ground game, akin to instant overheads in traditional fighters.

See this is what’s making this discussion massively convoluted.

Evaluating a specific section of A character is hard enough, as everything works together like a song, so analyzing some parts can seem lackluster, but putting it all together makes it much better looking (or sounding).

Instant overheads in traditional fighters doesn’t make a case for rising aerials being apart of the ground game, because the moves aren’t entirely comprised of said ground game. That’s how we categorize moves in the first place lol. It’s a joint effort between ground and air. It’s literally 50%Ground/ 50%Air.

Can’t have the amazing threat area and option coverage Cloud has without his Aerials.

Nor can you have a 50/50 of high and low without an aerial in the SF2 games outside of ground overheads.

What Cloud lacks is a traditional safe ground poke due to not having a swordsman dtilt, but that just makes his ground game incomplete, instead of "mediocre." Cloud dash attack and jab together is better than half the cast's ground game.

Not knowledgeable enough on other characters to talk about, but I’m sure you’re not either.

 

[Minordeth]

Mewtwo is top tier. Take your pick: he’s either at the bottom of it, or he is lowkey 4 or 5. Too many stupid good tools, recovery, and speed, in a game series that loves stupid good tools, recovery, and speed.

He is light, yes, but you actually have to get the hit on him to kill him. As his meta gets more optimized with his wonky, but effective movement options, it’ll just get harder to hit him. His hitbox isn’t actually that big.

Other than that, he is vulnerable to cross up rolls (and cross ups in general), but c-bounced Shadow Ball is a pretty effective way to make those feel more risky. Plus, he is pretty fast, and actually can retreat and play around the ledge reasonably well if need be.

For a character that feels like a wonkier, OD’ier version of Ness, with a smallish player base, his meta is doing quite well. Most of his top level exposure is limited to WaDi and occasionally Aba, so a few MUs are unexplored.

Cloud is his main suspect MU, right now. The other two of the elite three (Diddy and Bayo) are fine.

Character can torch pretty much everything, with probably the most effective ways to seal a stock in the game.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Jr's placement is pretty accurate, I feel like he's in a good spot right now.

 

[Deleted member]

Mewtwo is top tier. Take your pick: he’s either at the bottom of it, or he is lowkey 4 or 5. Too many stupid good tools, recovery, and speed, in a game series that loves stupid good tools, recovery, and speed.

He is light, yes, but you actually have to get the hit on him to kill him. As his meta gets more optimized with his wonky, but effective movement options, it’ll just get harder to hit him. His hitbox isn’t actually that big.

Other than that, he is vulnerable to cross up rolls (and cross ups in general), but c-bounced Shadow Ball is a pretty effective way to make those feel more risky. Plus, he is pretty fast, and actually can retreat and play around the ledge reasonably well if need be.

For a character that feels like a wonkier, OD’ier version of Ness, with a smallish player base, his meta is doing quite well. Most of his top level exposure is limited to WaDi and occasionally Aba, so a few MUs are unexplored.

Cloud is his main suspect MU, right now. The other two of the elite three (Diddy and Bayo) are fine.

Character can torch pretty much everything, with probably the most effective ways to seal a stock in the game.

You seem to know a lot about Mewtwo. I think you are forgetting about ZSS and Fox, can do it just as effective as Mewtwo when it comes to sealing a stock. ZSS up air to up b is still busted and a nice way to seal a stock and Fox struggles a little bit more than ZSS and Mewtwo but Fox has his forward air to footstool ( which is insane ) and he is great at juggling potentially to death. ZSS is just as good as sealing a stock like Mewtwo.

I see a lot of top players putting Mewtwo at the end spectrum of top tier. I guess they have a reason for it.

Mewtwo is still solid and the highest I could see Mewtwo is at top nine. Mewtwo's range of where he could be located in my opinion is 9-12.

You seem to know a lot about Mewtwo as I said earlier, you have some kind of guide for him? WaDi is a boss with Mewtwo right now by the way.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Hi and welcome to Smashboards!
We appreciate the enthusiasm and the fact you're willing to contribute to the discussion, so here are some tips/notes:
- Personal Tier Lists are generally disallowed in this thread, since it can often lead to heated discussions. Yours didn't and you were willing to answer questions about it, and that's cool, but for the sake of simplicity, we don't really need them (you can take this as a warning for the rest who might be thinking on posting one).
- You can edit your own posts if you miss any information or want to add something to it, this is preferred over posting twice in a row (as a bonus, the thread looks tidier and cleaner!).
- You can also hit the "+ Quote" button to add multiple Quotes to your post like the one you did in that one.

I hope this improves your and everyone's experience in the site, and you to enjoy your stay!

Thanks for that information. Question: how can you post personal tier lists? I literally signed up here today despite playing SSB4 for 3 years.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

On Samsora's Peach matchup chart, he forgot to put Lucas in there. XD

LOL, I guess that's bound to happen:

 

[Laken64]

I actually don’t think LCQ counted. Looking at Cosmos’s card I didn’t see it or his win on Mr.R

According to suar on Reddit the LCQ did count towards the PGR but wasn't shown because they wanted to remove clutter and stuff so his win on Mr R counts

 

[Nu~]

What are some of the least committal characters in sm4sh? Or better yet, who has the least problems dealing with attrition?

I know Cloud and Shiek are up there, but who else? I think this may turn out to be a very important attribute in the meta moving forward considering what characters are on top rn (kinda explains why Marth and Lucina have dropped a bit)

 

[Aaron1997]

Genesis 5 top 64 Seeding https://pastebin.com/6kS8dd75

Pools: https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-5/events/smash-for-wii-u-singles/brackets/141421

1. MKleo
2. Salem
3. Nairo
4. Dabuz
5. Larry Lurr
6. Tweek
7. Void
8. Wadi
9. Mr.R
10. Ally
11. Elegent
12. ESAM
13. CaptainZack
14. Samsora
15. Mistake
16. Cosmos
17. Lima
18. ANTI
19. MVD
20. Raito
21. Fatality
22. Tyroy
23. Darkshad
24. Zenyou
25. Falln
26. 6WX
27. K9sbruce
28. Javi
29. AC
30. Eon
31. Charliedaking
32. Konga
33. DSS
34. Captain L
35. Legit
36. Xzax
37. Locas
38. Stroder
39. Razo
40. Umeki
41. Brood
42. Rich Brown
43. Ryo
44. Chag
45. Aarvark
46. Supergirlkels
47. Pink Fresh
48. Icymist
49. Sinji
50. 8bitman
51. Karna
52. Bedgar
53. TLTC
54. Saiki
55. Blacktwins
56.KOSSismoss
57. Twi
58. Saj
59. DKHo
60. Deluxmenu
61. Metor
62. Shadow_PR
63. Luisfer
64. Teb

Also apparently ZeRo is not going and I want to know why

 

[Nobie]

You seem to know a lot about Mewtwo. I think you are forgetting about ZSS and Fox, can do it just as effective as Mewtwo when it comes to sealing a stock. ZSS up air to up b is still busted and a nice way to seal a stock and Fox struggles a little bit more than ZSS and Mewtwo but Fox has his forward air to footstool ( which is insane ) and he is great at juggling potentially to death. ZSS is just as good as sealing a stock like Mewtwo.

I see a lot of top players putting Mewtwo at the end spectrum of top tier. I guess they have a reason for it.

Mewtwo is still solid and the highest I could see Mewtwo is at top nine. Mewtwo's range of where he could be located in my opinion is 9-12.

You seem to know a lot about Mewtwo as I said earlier, you have some kind of guide for him? WaDi is a boss with Mewtwo right now by the way.

I'm not sure you understand what Baby_Sneak means. While other characters might have wilder ways to take stocks quickly, no character has a greater variety of practical kill moves or kill confirms at mid to high percents.

-ALL of its aerials kill. Fair is one of the best moves in the game, and dair can kill both onstage and offstage.
-The strongest up throw in the game and one of the best back throws.
-Nair footstool disable, or just disable, or Nair follow-ups in general
-Frame 9 up smash (as fast as fox) that can combo out of jab into up tilt. F smash with hurtbox-shifting properties. An incredibly safe down smash.
-Shadow Ball

These are not "if you get a really good read," these are "fair will straight up murder you if you happen to drop shield a smidge too soon."

The only characters I think come close are Cloud and maybe Marth, and both of them barely have kill throws.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not sure you understand what Baby_Sneak means. While other characters might have wilder ways to take stocks quickly, no character has a greater variety of practical kill moves or kill confirms at mid to high percents.

-ALL of its aerials kill. Fair is one of the best moves in the game, and dair can kill both onstage and offstage.
-The strongest up throw in the game and one of the best back throws.
-Nair footstool disable, or just disable, or Nair follow-ups in general
-Frame 9 up smash (as fast as fox) that can combo out of jab into up tilt. F smash with hurtbox-shifting properties. An incredibly safe down smash.
-Shadow Ball

These are not "if you get a really good read," these are "fair will straight up murder you if you happen to drop shield a smidge too soon."

The only characters I think come close are Cloud and maybe Marth, and both of them barely have kill throws.

Mewtwo may have the tools to seal the stock, but ZSS has slightly less tools but they are much more dangerous. People seem to underestimate up air to up b, because despite being nerfed it still is a great way to seal a stock. Keep in mind ZSS has her down b that can spike really hard if read correctly. ZSS is just like Mewtwo when it comes to sealing stocks.

Go to 7:00 to show how busted up air to up b is, and I think this happened after ZSS nerfs.

ZSS can still read an opponet at mid to high percents with her paralyze gun to down b. She could even do a random up b if the character is at high percents ( though you have to do a hard read ). Back air is also pretty solid for a KO at high percents.

I feel like people are beginning to exploit Mewtwo's weakness more easily than other top characters recently, but Mewtwo is still a really solid character.

 

[The-Technique]

I'm not sure you understand what Baby_Sneak means. While other characters might have wilder ways to take stocks quickly, no character has a greater variety of practical kill moves or kill confirms at mid to high percents.

-ALL of its aerials kill. Fair is one of the best moves in the game, and dair can kill both onstage and offstage.
-The strongest up throw in the game and one of the best back throws.
-Nair footstool disable, or just disable, or Nair follow-ups in general
-Frame 9 up smash (as fast as fox) that can combo out of jab into up tilt. F smash with hurtbox-shifting properties. An incredibly safe down smash.
-Shadow Ball

These are not "if you get a really good read," these are "fair will straight up murder you if you happen to drop shield a smidge too soon."

The only characters I think come close are Cloud and maybe Marth, and both of them barely have kill throws.

I don't disagree with what you said, but I just wanna point out that Clouds kill throw is waaaaay worse than Marth's.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'm not sure you understand what Baby_Sneak means. While other characters might have wilder ways to take stocks quickly, no character has a greater variety of practical kill moves or kill confirms at mid to high percents.

-ALL of its aerials kill. Fair is one of the best moves in the game, and dair can kill both onstage and offstage.
-The strongest up throw in the game and one of the best back throws.
-Nair footstool disable, or just disable, or Nair follow-ups in general
-Frame 9 up smash (as fast as fox) that can combo out of jab into up tilt. F smash with hurtbox-shifting properties. An incredibly safe down smash.
-Shadow Ball

These are not "if you get a really good read," these are "fair will straight up murder you if you happen to drop shield a smidge too soon."

The only characters I think come close are Cloud and maybe Marth, and both of them barely have kill throws.

Are you sure you’re tagging the right guy.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I actually don’t think LCQ counted. Looking at Cosmos’s card I didn’t see it or his win on Mr.R

That's unfortunate

What Mr R has over Elegant is consistency. Yes Elegant has higher peaks but he also has a string of 17ths in other S tiers besides GTX and the 2GG Championship while Mr R has been getting top 8 or 9ths at multiple S tiers, 17th at EVO being his worst placing this season (both tied for 17th there lol). Mr R also has that win on zero that elegant doesn't have

Nothing is perfect so like PGR seems more along the lines of exactly what you mentioned, the top 50 basically being a photograph of when people hit their peak for the season and not exactly where they should be and will always be back then and even in the future. (just like a tier list ironically)
Ex. Ally Captain Zack and Komo falling 10+ or almost 10 placings while Wadi elegant Cosmos etc. got super high up while not being on it before or pretty far down.

Not saying either of the 6 players are bad, especially the last 3. But the players PGR rank is possibly the highest they'll get and most likely gonna drop by more than 10 come the next season ending.

Also the ZeRo win is good but elegant also has some wins under his belt that Mr.R doesn't have from the top 10 that we know so far like Ken MKleo Salem and Larry lurr.
I might be wrong on MKleo, I forget which tourney it was where I think Mr.R beat him in WF but lost GF, not sure if it's the right players if so remove MKleo. from that list.

But that's whatever, any wins I'm prolly not remembering off the top of my head is fine since PGR can fill in the blanks whenever they release the final vid. Elegant got 11th and that's just the cusp of top 10 so that's still really good and Mr.R is still consistent enough to keep his top 10 so cheers to both players either way.

 

[Lord Dio]

Also apparently ZeRo is not going and I want to know why

https://twitter.com/Anti/status/951270652996136960
I think 3 bayos in a row is a good reason for wanting to skip out XD

 

[ぱみゅ]

https://twitter.com/Anti/status/951270652996136960
I think 3 bayos in a row is a good reason for wanting to skip out XD

The point is not to face 3 Bayos in a row, but to make them face and take out each other.

And again, if one character is the reason for a top player to drop, it might be worth reevaluating the character's worth.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Roy is not bad. He still does have a disjoint, but it's useless. His kill power is actually insane for a character so fast, killing at percentages comparable to the heavies, Limit Cloud, Tippers, High Aura Lucario, Fox, ZSS, and Luma.
Everybody is so divided over what constitutes a top tier though, but we all know who the current top three are .

but it's useless

No.

Many people have explained why before, and I'm sure plenty more will have to explain later. I'm sure the majority of the thread doesn't need me to explain why Roy's disjoint isn't useless.

 

[Krysco]

Wifi seems like a rather new poster (could've been a lurker without an account for however long) and it is kinda a pain to go looking for specific information in the older tier list threads so as someone with at least some Roy experience, I'll list some things about his tippers off the top of my head:

-Tipper jab and dtilt can lead to tech chase scenarios
-Tipper bair jab locks at low percents
-Tipper uair can combo at high percents, including into Blazer as a kill confirm.
-Tipper Double Edge Dance 1 pulls the opponent in as opposed to the base which pushes then out, making more of the move connect at higher percents
-Tippers in general let Roy poke at shields safely, namely dtilt
-Unlike Melee, his tippers are safe on hit so each one you land is free damage without consequence

Also, in regards to info from older threads being hard to acquire, I'm gonna slowly try to fix that. Just started in V1 a few days ago and only got to about post 90 or so but I'm gonna see about making a thread with a 'collection' of useful posts from these threads. Also gonna post some interesting thoughts that were posted before to show how this thread and the meta has changed. Anyone who has any posts they want saved can send me them. Gonna probably take a few months though.

Edit: added a file that shows roughly how many posts I'll be going through. The basic brawl comment is cuz back in the Brawl days, if I was bored and tired, I'd just pass the time till I slept on basic brawl. This little project of mine will be the same way.

 

[NairWizard]

Baby_Sneak

you seem to misunderstand Shaya's argument. He's not saying that Cloud's aerials are so strong that he doesn't need a ground game. Rather, he's saying that Cloud is just fine staying on the ground because his transitions to the air are so good that he doesn't need to commit to being in the air. Grounded Cloud is very strong because the threat of his aerials never goes away *even when he is on the ground*.

A character like ZSS needs to be in the air a lot. Or Mario.

But not Cloud. Cloud can afford to stay grounded much more often than most other characters in the cast. He plays grounded footsies most of the match, looking for openings. How is that not a strong ground game?

The dash mix-ups can’t be more than dash attack/grab because I’m not getting hit if the opponent decided to go to Uair, Cross Slash, Dair, Nair, or Limit Climhazard. After all, a 50/50 is where a player has to guess between two offensive options. I can shield it all if I want to.

This isn't how this game works. Shield vs. not shield isn't a true 50/50, because standing in one place and shielding is a losing play in almost all situations. You're always moving in smash, and often throwing out hitboxes; shield isn't always available as an answer, even when you're grounded. For example, if you choose to initial dash in midrange and Cloud chooses to dash forward and catch your initial dash animation with a Crosslash, you are eating 20% damage.

Watch any actual high-level matches and note how often Cloud catches grounded characters using his hitboxes. There's no "50/50" here. It's more like an 80/20.

 

[Locke 06]

Spoiler: a response to ground movement discussion

Spoiler: foxtrot

Best foxtrot, good perfect pivot, active ground hitboxes in neutral stance w/range and always threatening a burst option in either dash attack or dtilt. The dash mixup is not dash attack/grab, but also cross slash (or the invincible LCS), rising up air/DAir/NAir, or the faster invincible limit climhazard.

Zard has a better fox trot. Sheik has a better fox trot.

Cloud’s dash length is 11 frames, which most characters are. Zard is the same. Sheik is 8 frames.

Cloud’s running speed is 1.97, which is top 10. Zard is 2. Sheik is 2.016

I don’t have data for Cloud’s intial dash acceleration, but Zard’s is 0.5 just like every other character in the game. Can assume cloud is the same.
You’ll prolly think I’m vastly ignorant to just reference frame data when speaking on best fox trot while ignoring the options cloud holds when doing such (his rising aerials and various mix-ups on the ground with dash attack), but then we’ll be talking about more than just fox trot wouldn’t we? Movement in general is just an ambassador for the attacks, as they position us in the best places and angles to give us the best odds of landing them with the least risk and most reward; attaching Cloud’s quality options with his fox trot to argue it better is an unfair comparison when he could benefit from the attributes sheik or Zard holds (a frame 8 dash length would be broke, as well as faster runni- oh wait he already has that as limit. Nvm).

Dash-->shield is not the same as a foxtrot. Cloud, Lucario, Game & Watch and maybe one more character? share the same foxtrot frame data, which is dash-->neutral.

Spoiler: catching movement

Dash attack and dtilt are not always hard reads. They punish movement. Dtilt punishes dash forward or a landing, dash attack catches short hops with its giant hitbox. The opponent isn't standing still, because if he does, Cloud spaces back air, FAir, or NAir because he's allowed to jump in with the right spacing where the opponent cannot air-air.

This is the same thing as saying Ryu’s shoryuken isn’t always a hard read, it punishes movement. It punishes jump forward, jump neutral, or jump back when in the corner. Fireball conditions opponents to jump, which leads into shoryuken.

Which is wrong. It’s still definitely high risk.

You Dtilt, hoping the opponent moves a certain way, or you DA, hoping the opponent moves this way or that way. What if you’re wrong? What happens then? The conditioning Cloud’s aerials do makes reads easier, but the risk attached is always the same.

Not a fan of hypothetical scenarios made to help one’s argument, since they leave out a thousand different variables firing on all cylinders. Why can’t I just roll within rhythm of cloud’s aerials? Why can’t I run under and use a intangible Usmash? Why can’t I walk forward instead of dash? Dashdance? Blah blah blah? This goes for your first sentence below as well. Who disengages for that long to allow cloud limit on the charge lol? Is he on the phone with someone?

Also, if the opponent is standing still and not trying to hit cloud at all, Cloud gets limit, spends it, and then gets more limit. This is why movement is important vs Cloud.

Seems like you’re assuming I’m arguing against the importance of movement vs cloud. Which I’m not.

This is a gross misunderstanding of what a punish/read is. If someone jumps at Ryu in a traditional fgc game and he punishes with shoryu, that's not a read. Similar to if someone misspaces a move in smash and gets shield grabbed. That grab isn't a read, it's a punish. You're not "hoping" the opponent moved a certain way, they moved that way and you responded. There isn't a "what if you're wrong." You punished it. Doesn't matter if the move is high risk, it is guaranteed to hit in that situation.

Movement is a commitment, and you can punish that commitment. You're not making hard reads, you're punishing something that is happening.

Spoiler: aerials being part of a ground game

What Shaya is saying is that a character's rising aerial game is a natural part of their ground game, akin to instant overheads in traditional fighters.

See this is what’s making this discussion massively convoluted.

Evaluating a specific section of A character is hard enough, as everything works together like a song, so analyzing some parts can seem lackluster, but putting it all together makes it much better looking (or sounding).

Instant overheads in traditional fighters doesn’t make a case for rising aerials being apart of the ground game, because the moves aren’t entirely comprised of said ground game. That’s how we categorize moves in the first place lol. It’s a joint effort between ground and air. It’s literally 50%Ground/ 50%Air.

Can’t have the amazing threat area and option coverage Cloud has without his Aerials.

Nor can you have a 50/50 of high and low without an aerial in the SF2 games outside of ground overheads.

If your definition of air/ground game relies on what buttons are inputs and whether or not your character is touching the ground when those buttons are pressed, you need to reassess. Ibuki leaps on her forward medium kick overhead and is considered "airborne," but her jump jab, "instant overhead," is using an air normal. Are both/neither of these aerials? Similarly, Peach float cancel NAir is a move where she goes in the air, attacks, and then returns to the ground spending minimal time in the air.

You're arguing semantics based on inputs which would make the discussion literally meaningless and it seems like you just want to have a discussion to feel smart.

Sorry , but this bugged me. Solidsense elaborates on what has already been said.

 

[Laken64]

Mewtwo may have the tools to seal the stock, but ZSS has slightly less tools but they are much more dangerous. People seem to underestimate up air to up b, because despite being nerfed it still is a great way to seal a stock. Keep in mind ZSS has her down b that can spike really hard if read correctly. ZSS is just like Mewtwo when it comes to sealing stocks.

Go to 7:00 to show how busted up air to up b is, and I think this happened after ZSS nerfs.

ZSS can still read an opponet at mid to high percents with her paralyze gun to down b. She could even do a random up b if the character is at high percents ( though you have to do a hard read ). Back air is also pretty solid for a KO at high percents.

I feel like people are beginning to exploit Mewtwo's weakness more easily than other top characters recently, but Mewtwo is still a really solid character.

Your slightly right but if anything ZSS is better than M2 when it comes to kills at abnormally low percents with her ladder confirms but outside of that and gimps, when her opponent hits a certain % she struggles to kill and has to fish for bairs to kill like bayo to an extent (except she has two kill throws though down throw is worse and forward throw is one of the weaker throws when it comes to killing and it's most likely stale)
And most importantly her grab becomes less threating and gives no reward like her ladder.
And if you're watching for paralyzer you shouldn't get hit outside of some situations.

M2 limits how long his opponent can live just by having the strongest kill throw (and back throw buts all upthrow lol) which is very relieving because in limiting how long your opponent lives you also limit the amount of rage they can have which is relieving for a light character like M2 who can get screwed over by a little rage. This with all of his killing Aerials, one of the best projectiles in the game, along with kill confirms that seem to be growing by the day (down tilt near ledge into tip of up air into fair kills so early it's not even funny) M2 is one of the best stock takers in the game and he'll only get better at it in the future.

That's unfortunate


Nothing is perfect so like PGR seems more along the lines of exactly what you mentioned, the top 50 basically being a photograph of when people hit their peak for the season and not exactly where they should be and will always be back then and even in the future. (just like a tier list ironically)
Ex. Ally Captain Zack and Komo falling 10+ or almost 10 placings while Wadi elegant Cosmos etc. got super high up while not being on it before or pretty far down.

Not saying either of the 6 players are bad, especially the last 3. But the players PGR rank is possibly the highest they'll get and most likely gonna drop by more than 10 come the next season ending.

Also the ZeRo win is good but elegant also has some wins under his belt that Mr.R doesn't have from the top 10 that we know so far like Ken MKleo Salem and Larry lurr.
I might be wrong on MKleo, I forget which tourney it was where I think Mr.R beat him in WF but lost GF, not sure if it's the right players if so remove MKleo. from that list.

But that's whatever, any wins I'm prolly not remembering off the top of my head is fine since PGR can fill in the blanks whenever they release the final vid. Elegant got 11th and that's just the cusp of top 10 so that's still really good and Mr.R is still consistent enough to keep his top 10 so cheers to both players either way.

Suar said on Reddit that the LCQ counts but it wasn't featured in the PGR because they wanted to reduce clutter. So it does count but it's not visually seen.

Your right about the win on MKLeo, Mr R beat KEN at a European major twice I think? Idk about Larry.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

it seems like you just want to have a discussion to feel smart.

Or........

I was just confused as to how aerials can be classified within a ground game, when they’re two distinct states. Still a tad bit confused on cloud’s prowess, but I’m re-reading it all though.

On the punish/read situation, I’m not thinking about after Ryu/cloud sees someone do something, I’m thinking in the midst of them real they do. I know what read/punishes are, we thought in different scenarios. But since movement is a constant thing......then yeah.

But Dang, I feel embarrassed lol. I’ve never really heard of this outside of SHFFL games and stuff.

 

[Krysco]

Pretty sure someone brought this up before but why is the tier list for Sm4sh still the V3 one on the 'Tier Lists' tab at the top of the site? Didn't even notice till I saw Diddy in second and Duck Hunt below Ike and Wario that I noticed something was off since I'm rooting through V1 again and looking at the tier list to see how much things have changed. Gunla @Shaya guessing you two would be the ones to ask since you tend to be the ones who post the articles and threads for the tier lists. Doesn't matter too much since the first page of this thread and Smash Wiki both have V4 but it just seems odd.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

To add to the mewtwo discussion, mewtwo is FAR safer than zss when it comes to killing. Shadow ball demands respect from across the stage. Forward air can be used while rising. Grab is traditional, not a tether. Kill throws have no chance of error, unlike kill combos. You're not largely safe to simply hold shield vs mewtwo after a certain percent like you are against zss either.

Also, mewtwo has situational kill power as low as 20-30% on some characters. Falling up air into forward air x3 on bowser kills from the ledge around 20%, for example. Down tilt to neutral air to up air to forward air can kill most characters at 30% from the ledge, too. Down tilt up air forward air kills a bit later from the ledge.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

The_Bookworm

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-

Was waiting for a G5 attendee list to be shared so I could share this here.

CrispyTacoz - Pool C5 - https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-5/events/smash-for-wii-u-singles/brackets/141421/478975
Crits - Pool D2 - https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-5/events/smash-for-wii-u-singles/brackets/141421/478976
BlurryFace - Pool G3 - https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-5/events/smash-for-wii-u-singles/brackets/141421/478951
LightlyToastedWaffle - Pool A3 - https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-5/events/smash-for-wii-u-singles/brackets/141421/478966
Kimisan - Pool A2 - https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-5/events/smash-for-wii-u-singles/brackets/141421/478957
Agehasama - Pool H6 - https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-5/events/smash-for-wii-u-singles/brackets/141421/478970
Juice - Pool C1 - https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-5/events/smash-for-wii-u-singles/brackets/141421/478953

If you know a lucas main attending or are one yourself, including secondaries, feel free to drop a comment and I will update the list.

 

[TDK]

G5 Round 1 pool finals matches (I think, it won't let me see the actual bracket but I can see who all is there):

A1: MKLeo vs Blacktwins
A2: Ally vs Teb or BestNess
A3: MVD vs SuperGirlKels
A4: Charliedaking vs Captain L

B1: Falln vs Brood
B2: Death Arcana vs Karna
B3: Tyroy vs Ryo
B4: Cosmos vs Sinji
B5: Mr. R vs KOSSismoss

C1: Tweek vs Twan or DKHo
C2: Raito vs Chag (AEMehr's in this pool, and I would really love to see the best Mii Gunner vs the best DH)
C3: Fatality vs Aarvark (Ven's in this pool)
C4: Umeki vs Zenyou
C5: Javi vs Locus

D1: Konga vs DSS
D2: Ac vs Xzax
D3: Nairo vs Shadow_PR
D4: Eon vs Legit

G1: Lima vs IcyMist
G2: Mistake vs 8BitMan
G3: Dabuz vs Meteor (Sharpy's in this pool)
G4: ESAM vs TLTC
G5: VoiD vs Tamushika
G6: 6WX vs Razo
G7: K9Sbruce vs Stroder
G8: Captain Zack vs Bedgar

H1: ANTi vs Matcha or Pink Fresh
H2: Elegant vs Saiki
H3: Salem vs Luisfer
H4: WaDi vs Twi
H5: Larry Lurr vs DeluxeMenu
H6: DarkShad vs Rich Brown (Agehasama is in here as well)

 

[Deleted member]

G5 Round 1 pool finals matches (I think, it won't let me see the actual bracket but I can see who all is there):

A1: MKLeo vs Blacktwins
A2: Ally vs Teb or BestNess
A3: MVD vs SuperGirlKels
A4: Charliedaking vs Captain L

B1: Falln vs BC (?)
B2: Samsora vs Karna
B3: Tyroy vs Ryo
B4: Cosmos vs Sinji
B5: Mr. R vs KOSSismoss

C1: Tweek vs Twan or DKHo
C2: Raito vs Chag (AEMehr's in this pool, and I would really love to see the best Mii Gunner vs the best DH)
C3: Fatality vs Aarvark (Ven's in this pool)
C4: Umeki vs Zenyou
C5: Javi vs Locus

D1: Konga vs DSS
D2: Ac vs Xzax
D3: Nairo vs Shadow_PR
D4: Eon vs Pon (Pon's the #2 Ganon in Japan, and I don't recognize anyone else here)

G1: Lima vs IcyMist
G2: Mistake vs 8BitMan
G3: Dabuz vs Meteor (Sharpy's in this pool)
G4: ESAM vs TLTC
G5: VoiD vs Tamushika
G6: 6WX vs Razo
G7: K9Sbruce vs Stroder
G8: Captain Zack vs Bedgar

H1: ANTi vs Matcha or Pink Fresh
H2: Elegant vs Saiki
H3: Salem vs Cagt
H4: WaDi vs Twi
H5: Larry Lurr vs DeluxeMenu
H6: DarkShad vs Rich Brown (Agehasama is in here as well)

It sure is stacked in there! It is nice to see Sinji in there, his Pac-Man in 2015 was doing really well and if he kept those results, Pac-Man would have been lower-mid tier. Still am curious to see how well everyone will do!

 

[Wintermelon43]

G5 Round 1 pool finals matches (I think, it won't let me see the actual bracket but I can see who all is there):

A1: MKLeo vs Blacktwins
A2: Ally vs Teb or BestNess
A3: MVD vs SuperGirlKels
A4: Charliedaking vs Captain L

B1: Falln vs BC (?)
B2: Samsora vs Karna
B3: Tyroy vs Ryo
B4: Cosmos vs Sinji
B5: Mr. R vs KOSSismoss

C1: Tweek vs Twan or DKHo
C2: Raito vs Chag (AEMehr's in this pool, and I would really love to see the best Mii Gunner vs the best DH)
C3: Fatality vs Aarvark (Ven's in this pool)
C4: Umeki vs Zenyou
C5: Javi vs Locus

D1: Konga vs DSS
D2: Ac vs Xzax
D3: Nairo vs Shadow_PR
D4: Eon vs Pon (Pon's the #2 Ganon in Japan, and I don't recognize anyone else here)

G1: Lima vs IcyMist
G2: Mistake vs 8BitMan
G3: Dabuz vs Meteor (Sharpy's in this pool)
G4: ESAM vs TLTC
G5: VoiD vs Tamushika
G6: 6WX vs Razo
G7: K9Sbruce vs Stroder
G8: Captain Zack vs Bedgar

H1: ANTi vs Matcha or Pink Fresh
H2: Elegant vs Saiki
H3: Salem vs Cagt
H4: WaDi vs Twi
H5: Larry Lurr vs DeluxeMenu
H6: DarkShad vs Rich Brown (Agehasama is in here as well)

I'm surprised ZeRo, Abadango, Kameme, and probably muitiple other top level players I didn't notice aren't here (Komorikiri isn't here either but that doesn't really surprise me after last year lol). Considering how big these were the last two years, I'm kinda surprised. I'm guessing it's because of how bad last year's went though.

Either way though, it's still big. I'm mostly excited to see how the Duck Hunts, Sinji, Elegant, and WaDi do

Edit: Wait, where's Brood? Isn't he attending?

 

[Deleted member]

I'm surprised ZeRo, Abadango, Kameme, and probably muitiple other top level players I didn't notice aren't here (Komorikiri isn't here either but that doesn't really surprise me after last year lol). Considering how big these were the last two years, I'm kinda surprised. I'm guessing it's because of how bad last year's went though.

Either way though, it's still big. I'm mostly excited to see how the Duck Hunts, Sinji, Elegant, and WaDi do

Edit: Wait, where's Brood? Isn't he attending?

During Twitch ZeRo said that he would release a video about why he is not going to Genesis. I think we are all aware that ZeRo is still the best Smash 4 player. I am curious though, will MkLeo or Salem be in second? Nairo has a slight chance but he is most likely ending up in third. Same here, when you mentioned all of those players. I am curious to see how Dabuz, MkLeo, Salem and Nairo will do.

 

[TDK]

Edit: Wait, where's Brood? Isn't he attending?

Whoops, he is. He'll fight Falln in his pool, probably for the finals over BC. Thanks for catching that.

EDIT: Samsora isn't going, so my next guess for that pool is Death Arcana .

 

[Wintermelon43]

I just noticed KEN isn't here either.

I figured Komorikiri wouldn't attend after what happened last year, but the other plays surprises me, espicially Brood since I remember people getting funds for him (and Raito and Tamushika) to get there. I wonder why that is. Probably just because of last year though.

Whoops, he is. He'll fight Falln in his pool, probably for the finals over BC. Thanks for catching that.

Oh okay, that would explain it. I was wondering what happened there

 

[Nemesis561]

It sure is stacked in there! It is nice to see Sinji in there, his Pac-Man in 2015 was doing really well and if he kept those results, Pac-Man would have been lower-mid tier. Still am curious to see how well everyone will do!

Well Sinji has placed very well at a few majors recently (I believe a few 17ths) and I don’t think people’s opinion of Pac-Man has risen too much because of it. I think he has an edge when he travels out of region due to the fact that almost nobody has high level Pac-Man experience especially at Sinji’s caliber. Also Sinji is just an amazing player who is always coming up with new tech for his character