Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[PJB]

On the topic of Mewtwo, I tend to lean more towards the “lowkey 4th or 5th” camp, though I do understand that in the current meta he has not shown himself to be quite that good.

I think Mewtwo is in a bit of a weird spot due to something we haven’t really talked about yet- his release timing and patches. Mewtwo is DLC, but at the time of his release he was a low tier. By the time he was patched to be a top tier contender, other elite characters better than him were released. I think mewtwo has a small player base due to not having the extended meta development of non DLC cast members, but also not gaining a lot of players immediately like cloud or bayo because he was weak on release.

What I’m trying to say is that mewtwo has had the worst of both worlds- less meta development than sheik, diddy or fox, but also less players switch to him on DLC release than bayo or cloud. That being said, people are finally starting to see what mewtwo can do and I think he will only improve as the meta progresses

 

[Deleted member]

On the topic of Mewtwo, I tend to lean more towards the “lowkey 4th or 5th” camp, though I do understand that in the current meta he has not shown himself to be quite that good.

I think Mewtwo is in a bit of a weird spot due to something we haven’t really talked about yet- his release timing and patches. Mewtwo is DLC, but at the time of his release he was a low tier. By the time he was patched to be a top tier contender, other elite characters better than him were released. I think mewtwo has a small player base due to not having the extended meta development of non DLC cast members, but also not gaining a lot of players immediately like cloud or bayo because he was weak on release.

What I’m trying to say is that mewtwo has had the worst of both worlds- less meta development than sheik, diddy or fox, but also less players switch to him on DLC release than bayo or cloud. That being said, people are finally starting to see what mewtwo can do and I think he will only improve as the meta progresses

I agree with this, to be honest I do not know why Mewtwo dropped to tenth place. The only things that hold Mewtwo back is his frailty and his bad frame data. Some people said that his tournament presence got worse, but who knows. The highest I could see Mewtwo being is maybe top seven if his results explode, but I am not sure if Mewtwo is top five. I think Mewtwo will continue to improve as the meta progresses as well, like Cloud and Bayonetta. I could see Mewtwo being better than Mario, but you need to mind that other top tiers are going to improve as the meta progresses as well. Ninth place is a solid placing for Mewtwo in my eyes ( I just do not see it being above over Sonic and Fox ).
>

 

[Aaron1997]

Well Sinji has placed very well at a few majors recently (I believe a few 17ths) and I don’t think people’s opinion of Pac-Man has risen too much because of it. I think he has an edge when he travels out of region due to the fact that almost nobody has high level Pac-Man experience especially at Sinji’s caliber. Also Sinji is just an amazing player who is always coming up with new tech for his character

People's Opinion on Pac will never change unless Sinji or Tea start outplacing 2015 Aba.

 

[Rizen]

IMO Mewtwo is lower top tier with Mario. Marth and Ryu are the top of high tier. Mewtwo's kill options are great but Fox is scarier because his burst game.
Being a glass canon does hold Mewtwo back a little. His disadvantage state is great because the f2 drifting airdodge but if he's already caught in a combo he's a big hurtbox with no fast aerials to break free. Being the 2nd lightest also means weight dependent throw combos work extremely well on him; Link gets Dthrow combos from 0-100%.

 

[Aaron1997]

Not to get people's hopes up but. Smash Wiiu AND 3ds have been down for 2 hours now. Its probably nothing but you can only hope.

 

[Onua]

Im keeping my hopes kinda there. Its very odd how long its been down. really really unusual.

 

[|RK|]

Sadly, we're past DDD week in the character impressions thread. But Whiteout is putting on a show tonight, sitting in Loser's Finals of a Texas local.

Gordo remains easily abused, but the baits are actually pretty impressive. And then his general survivability helps a lot against a number of characters.

But, he remains a large and easily hit target.

 

[Onua]

Wait I guess wifi is back haha


Dream is dead

 

[TDK]

League of Shadows Season 10 Week 2 (84 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: Samsora
2nd: DeluxeMenu
3rd: Whiteout
4th: Megafox
5th: KJ
5th: Tenni
7th: WaDi
7th: Proto

Heavyweight fight night tonight, apparently. WaDi lost to Whiteout 0-2 in winners, and then KJ in losers.

 

[TimG57867]

Man Whiteout was so close. Probably would have had it if he let that last D-Smash rip sooner. But I guess that's why is bottom tier while is mid/high tier. You can know all the ins and outs of your character and make the most bonkers plays ever. But if the character themselves is too limited and lacks consistent options to win neutral/seal stocks, then you'll only get so far against an all round more solid character. I feel like Whiteout was making the more calculated and impessive plays throughout the set. I mean those Gordo traps were insane! But when things became touch and go, Bowser had the kill confirm off a grab, and Dedede didn't.

Oh well. Good game to all the players and great job Whiteout. Really did the D3's proud.

 

[Nu~]

Whiteout 2-0’ing Wadi’s mewtwo with Dedede is actually the best thing ever

 

[Minordeth]

Whiteout 2-0’ing Wadi’s mewtwo with Dedede is actually the best thing ever

I actually lol’d when I saw the results.

Tbh, if you sleep on an MU, you are gonna get bopped by a well studied main, regardless of their placement on the tier list.

 

[FeelMeUp]

There'll be another tournament tomorrow with Deluxe, Elegant and potentially a few other good names. I'll post the results after the tourney if the turnout is good enough.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

TDK For pool D4, its very likely that Legit (PRd diddy in Norcal) will fight Eon instead.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Well Sinji has placed very well at a few majors recently (I believe a few 17ths) and I don’t think people’s opinion of Pac-Man has risen too much because of it. I think he has an edge when he travels out of region due to the fact that almost nobody has high level Pac-Man experience especially at Sinji’s caliber. Also Sinji is just an amazing player who is always coming up with new tech for his character

In my opinion, that is the case of Tsu-'s Frostbite Run. No one has ever fought a Lucario of that caliber prior to the tournament. It one of the main reasons why Tsu- struggles to achieve that peak again and gets results ranging from 7th to 33rd (the other reason being running into Larry Lurr in bracket).

League of Shadows Season 10 Week 2 (84 Entrants) (Texas)

1st: Samsora
2nd: DeluxeMenu
3rd: Whiteout
4th: Megafox
5th: KJ
5th: Tenni
7th: WaDi
7th: Proto

Heavyweight fight night tonight, apparently. WaDi lost to Whiteout 0-2 in winners, and then KJ in losers.

WaDi must pick up the pace if he wants success in Genesis 5. This is going to be interesting.

 

[Jaguar360]

G5 Round 1 pool finals matches (I think, it won't let me see the actual bracket but I can see who all is there):

A1: MKLeo vs Blacktwins
A2: Ally vs Teb or BestNess
A3: MVD vs SuperGirlKels
A4: Charliedaking vs Captain L

B1: Falln vs Brood
B2: Death Arcana vs Karna
B3: Tyroy vs Ryo
B4: Cosmos vs Sinji
B5: Mr. R vs KOSSismoss

C1: Tweek vs Twan or DKHo
C2: Raito vs Chag (AEMehr's in this pool, and I would really love to see the best Mii Gunner vs the best DH)
C3: Fatality vs Aarvark (Ven's in this pool)
C4: Umeki vs Zenyou
C5: Javi vs Locus

D1: Konga vs DSS
D2: Ac vs Xzax
D3: Nairo vs Shadow_PR
D4: Eon vs Pon (Pon's the #2 Ganon in Japan, and I don't recognize anyone else here)

G1: Lima vs IcyMist
G2: Mistake vs 8BitMan
G3: Dabuz vs Meteor (Sharpy's in this pool)
G4: ESAM vs TLTC
G5: VoiD vs Tamushika
G6: 6WX vs Razo
G7: K9Sbruce vs Stroder
G8: Captain Zack vs Bedgar

H1: ANTi vs Matcha or Pink Fresh
H2: Elegant vs Saiki
H3: Salem vs Cagt
H4: WaDi vs Twi
H5: Larry Lurr vs DeluxeMenu
H6: DarkShad vs Rich Brown (Agehasama is in here as well)

Legit from NorCal is seeded over Pon in the pool they're in to fight Eon.

Luisfer from El Salvador (notable Wi-Fi warrior/Naifu) is seeded over Cagt to fight Salem.

Matcha is actually unseeded in his pool still, which is a shame. He could possibly end up on ANTi's side of the bracket rather than Pink Fresh/S2H's, which would be an unfortunate encounter on either's part. Maister from Mexico City is also unseeded in the same pool.

 

[Deleted member]

IMO Mewtwo is lower top tier with Mario. Marth and Ryu are the top of high tier. Mewtwo's kill options are great but Fox is scarier because his burst game.
Being a glass canon does hold Mewtwo back a little. His disadvantage state is great because the f2 drifting airdodge but if he's already caught in a combo he's a big hurtbox with no fast aerials to break free. Being the 2nd lightest also means weight dependent throw combos work extremely well on him; Link gets Dthrow combos from 0-100%.

I agree with this, but did not we discuss that Mewtwo's hurt-box recently? Check the forum that @Browny made. Sure that hitbox is still tall and large but not as people think. Mewtwo in top five is really weird in my opinion.

I don't even know how I should feel anymore, have people seen this website?

https://struz.github.io/smash-move-viewer/#/v1/mewtwo/AttackAirB/13

For years... YEARS, Mewtwo mains had to put up with so called 'intelligent' people including back room members and moderators telling us that Mewtwos hurtbox was bigger than his body, it covered his tail and he didn't have disjointed attacks. I can still watch streams in 2018 and commentators are STILL GETTING THIS WRONG. I wrote this thread almost 2.5 years ago
https://smashboards.com/threads/the-misconceptions-about-mewtwos-hurtbox-end-here.416127/

and surprise surprise, just about everything I said is true.

Let this be a lesson to people on this forum, don't trust what 'pros' or commentators say about this game because way too often people are ignorant sheep. I'm not talking about commentators saying 'wind monado' or nonsense like that, I'm talking about whether the #1 player in your scene spreads some idiotic lie about X character only having Y true kill set ups. If you think someone is wrong about something and have reasons to believe so, tell them they are wrong. Start a dialogue because if their opinion has merit, they will back it up. No one ever got good at video games by being too afraid to argue over tactics. If they call you dumb, so what, they are the ones who will lose because they don't understand the games mechanics while you get better, quicker.

I don't even know how many infractions I've got on this forum for attacking people who deliberately spread lies but every single one of them was worth it. BTW Zero's current coach is one of those people, massively wrong about a lot of things but it just goes unchallenged so often because of his position.

Or people can just continue doing what they do, be friendly to anyone and never have a different opinion. I hate that it feels good to be vindicated after all these years because there is always such resistance to anyone who disagrees with what 'pros' say.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

While his hurtbox might not be as big as commonly believed it's still a larger hurtbox regardless, he's a taller frame character and when you are as light as Kirby you don't want to be big so it's still a valid weakness of his to bring up.

I've also literally never heard anyone say M2 doesn't have disjointed moves he has been called a semi-swordsman since release.

 

[|RK|]

Not surprised, but for those of you who were wondering about why ZeRo wasn't going to Genesis:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He's retiring from competitive Smash 4.

 

[The-Technique]

https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/951914839709974529

Zero to go on an indefinite retirement. Best of luck to him.


Edit: Annnnd I got beat to the punch by seconds, lol.

 

[Onua]

Wonder if ZeRo retiring will change the meta at all.
Maybe.

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

What a legacy he has left behind. #1 for 4 seasons in a row, Smash 4 definitely won't be the same without him. Regardless, this season was looking interesting already, but with ZeRo gone, the battle for new best player in the world is going to make this season even more interesting.

 

[Deleted member]

Not surprised, but for those of you who were wondering about why ZeRo wasn't going to Genesis:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He's retiring from competitive Smash 4.

Never knew the day would happen. I understand why he would want to quit competitive Smash 4, because of all of the stress it could cause. I fully understand why he would quit it and I accept this. As ThePokéYoshi said, Smash 4 will not be the same without him again. Do not worry, when Smash for Switch comes he will return.

I am a little worried that Diddy Kong will be slightly worse because of this, but who knows. Maybe this will give Diddy Kong players the urge to try harder and to do better than ever before. Even if ZeRo retired, he is still the best player of Smash 4.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

What I think will happen is that Diddy may stay near the top of the list because of how much work Zero has put in with him, and as of now his legacy.

 

[Blobulle]

No wonder, just look at this:

 

[|RK|]

No wonder, just look at this:

It's weird to make excuses in a competitive impressions thread, but some top players seem to agree ZeRo was not trying at all in that set. Not even a PGR event.

That said, fighting Bayo is definitely a task.

 

[The-Technique]

No wonder, just look at this:

I wouldn't read that deeply into it. Smash Boot Camp didn't count towards PGR and was meant as a fun event for the top players. Like if you saw Nairo on stream a few days before the event he was already burnt out from the championship and wasn't terribly thrilled to travel to the Boot Camp, but he still got 2nd.

Also....i would definitely read the whole tweet before jumping to conclusions, lol.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I am really gonna miss ZeRo in competitive smash. His legacy in this game is just amazing and I hope the best for him as the future goes on. With Zero exiting the scene, this leaves for this years meta to be insane. #1 is pretty open, though I personally have it for Tweek since tweeks one true demon was Zero.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Not surprised, but for those of you who were wondering about why ZeRo wasn't going to Genesis:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He's retiring from competitive Smash 4.

It says he attached three photos to the tweet but I can't view them (mainly because I don't use twitter) how do I view the attached photos?

 

[Frihetsanka]

If this leads to Diddy Kong dropping out of top 5, then that would show how easily people are influenced by player skill rather than character strength. Diddy Kong is still a top 5 character, regardless of whether ZeRo is playing the game or not.

 

[Nah]

It says he attached three photos to the tweet but I can't view them (mainly because I don't use twitter) how do I view the attached photos?

open the twitter link in a new tab, then click on the small text next to the image in the tweet and give it a sec, you should be able to see the letter then

that's what i did

 

[Nathan Richardson]

open the twitter link in a new tab, then click on the small text next to the image in the tweet and give it a sec, you should be able to see the letter then

that's what i did

Thanks but I'm still using my Wii U's web browser to open the links. It opens it in a new tab but there's no small text next to the image. The image is just...there. Does that mean I can't use my Wii U to view this?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Never knew the day would happen. I understand why he would want to quit competitive Smash 4, because of all of the stress it could cause. I fully understand why he would quit it and I accept this. As ThePokéYoshi said, Smash 4 will not be the same without him again. Do not worry, when Smash for Switch comes he will return.

I am a little worried that Diddy Kong will be slightly worse because of this, but who knows. Maybe this will give Diddy Kong players the urge to try harder and to do better than ever before. Even if ZeRo retired, he is still the best player of Smash 4.

Wow.... I didn't see this coming at all. Him not going to SSB4 tournaments is going to feel different (unless he pulls a ScorpionMaster, which I doubt it). Best of luck to his future and now the #1 spot is open for v5.

What I think will happen is that Diddy may stay near the top of the list because of how much work Zero has put in with him, and as of now his legacy.

I agree that Diddy will still remain top 5 despite this, due to maintaining great representation, results, and his overall character strengths. If he remains in S tier: it seems unlikely unless a godlike Diddy player brings out great results.

 

[Nah]

Thanks but I'm still using my Wii U's web browser to open the links. It opens it in a new tab but there's no small text next to the image. The image is just...there. Does that mean I can't use my Wii U to view this?

yeah I have no idea how the **** internet works on the Wii U, so I'ma just make things easy and stick the full-size images here for you and anyone else having difficultly seeing them:

Spoiler: ZeRo's letter

 

[Nathan Richardson]

yeah I have no idea how the **** internet works on the Wii U, so I'ma just make things easy and stick the full-size images here for you and anyone else having difficultly seeing them:

Spoiler: ZeRo's letter

Thank you so much! Wow, this sounds like why I stopped playing. You just lose the passion after awhile. You look back and say "Well, I've accomplished everything I want to accomplish, what else is there left to do? Time to hang it up for now."

 

[Rizen]

Diddy's results will drop but that could be said of any character who loses their number 1 player. Although Bayo and Cloud have a ton of representation. Apex top tier might end up just those 2, with Diddy and Sheik one tier lower with the other top 10 characters.

 

[FangleManiac]

Makes sense why ZeRo would get tired of Smash 4. Many people are. The meta right now, and as of late, isn't exactly the most exciting thing.

I understand why you quit ZeRo. Best of wishes to you in the future.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not surprised, but for those of you who were wondering about why ZeRo wasn't going to Genesis:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He's retiring from competitive Smash 4.

Good for him.

Streaming is how you make real consistent money once you make a name for yourself.

 

[Wintermelon43]

inb4 Sakurai immediatly announces Smash for Switch

It did seem like he was starting to get more stressed with the game at some point. Will be interesting to see who becomes #1 now that's ZeRo isn't playing (well for now)

Now that I think of it, it is kind of weird how this kind of thing goes. I feel like a lot of people just suddenly lose interest in the #1 thing they enjoyed the most and feel better not doing anything with it. Even outside of Smash. It's weird how that works.

Hopefully ZeRo enjoys streaming and whatever else he does.

 

[TDK]

Wow, this was not at all what I expected to walk into. Good luck to ZeRo in whatever he does next.

PAX South is under way here: https://www.twitch.tv/paxarena