Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[christyalmeth]

I agree with this tier list for the most part
I like how Luigi is high, I think he is under used
Diddy is one of my faves in SB4, he’s so OP and I love his move set
To me Pit is a little higher and so is Dedede
I love the placements of Rosalina & Shiek definetly where they belong. Rosalina took a bit for me to master, but as soon as I did she was definitely apart the top 5 for me
All and All good list nothing too controversial
​

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Can we get to some zard vs. olimar talk? Soulimar's MU chart makes me wonder.
Olimar obviously beats Zard in the air with his weaving but Zard's moves outrange Olimar's, Olimar's pikmin toss loses hard to flamethrower and only red pikmin can get through and Zard can easily knock those off with tilts or smashes.
The only thing I can see Zard losing hard too is Olimar's dash grab because Zard is combo food but Zard essentially kills Olimar's pikmin for free while Olimar has to rely on reds exclusively to avoid losing pikmin to flamethrower.
If Olimar has another advantage besides red pikmin and grab combos please explain it to me because I'm clueless as I previously said.

 

[MERPIS]

Weird to see a tournament like this with neither Zero nor Nairo in it.

And meanwhile...Anti's updated Mario matchup chart.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Mario going even vs Palutena and Link, pretty interesting.

oof that sonic MU. Do the other marios think its this bad or is it just Anti and Dark Wizzy?

 

[Rizen]

Weird to see a tournament like this with neither Zero nor Nairo in it.

And meanwhile...Anti's updated Mario matchup chart.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Mario going even vs Palutena and Link, pretty interesting.

This is one of the few MU charts where imo Link does worse than shown. IMO Link loses slightly to Mario mainly due to Mario having less risk and commitment. Mario has a good anti-projectile zoning game with a quick cape reflector and burst options. Mario's Bair can hop over Link's jabs, his dash grab has good payoff and Usmash beats SHs.
Link can still zone him with his disjointed sword and Zair. Pivots work great in this MU. As with most MUs Link tanks better. Link has good power and rage strongly benefits hims; a lot of people overlook these heavyweight traits.
It ends up a contest of who can do their things better.

Can we get to some zard vs. olimar talk? Soulimar's MU chart makes me wonder.
Olimar obviously beats Zard in the air with his weaving but Zard's moves outrange Olimar's, Olimar's pikmin toss loses hard to flamethrower and only red pikmin can get through and Zard can easily knock those off with tilts or smashes.
The only thing I can see Zard losing hard too is Olimar's dash grab because Zard is combo food but Zard essentially kills Olimar's pikmin for free while Olimar has to rely on reds exclusively to avoid losing pikmin to flamethrower.
If Olimar has another advantage besides red pikmin and grab combos please explain it to me because I'm clueless as I previously said.

Can Oli toss pikmin over flame thrower?

 

[Frihetsanka]

oof that sonic MU. Do the other marios think its this bad or is it just Anti and Dark Wizzy?

Many of them seem to think it's that bad, yes. A saw a few put it at slight disadvantage though. The notable Sonic mains seem to lean towards slight advantage for them though, with only a few putting it at advantage (+2).

Oh, and Samsora posted a MU chart for Peach.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Meta Knight only being -1 is interesting, as is Corrin being even. With that MU chart I could see her current 4BR spot being fairly accuratep around where she is on the 4BR tier list (either near the bottom of B tier or the top of C tier).

: The dominant two. Back then the top two was highly debatable but now I see a lot of top players putting these as their top two and I feel like the majority of the Smash community accepts these as the top two.

These two stand out for several reasons. They seem to be the most popular characters to switch to when ones mid/low tier main isn't working (or even high tier, as is the case with Abadango and MkLeo). Both of them stand out because even in theory they have 1-2 bad MUs at most, it seems (with most people considering Bayonetta to have 0 bad MUs and Cloud 1, Sheik, although some people, like ESAM, think that Pikachu wins as well).

: These three have a lot of potential if you use them properly but I feel like they do better overall in higher levels of play than lower levels of play because they all have a lot of techniques and require a lot of skill.

Diddy Kong does quite well in Europe (at, I suppose, mid/high levels of play). Anyway, these characters (especially Diddy Kong and Sheik) stand out because of "potential". They have the potential to be top 2, but they could be lower, depending on how their MU spread ends up.

Sheik might lose 0 MUs and could potentially have the 2nd best MU spread in the game, but she could also lose 2-3 MUs (Rosalina, Mario, and Pikachu*). She's also one of the hardest characters to play well, and probably the top tier that struggles the most to kill. Her pros greatly outweigh her cons though, and she'll easily remain in top tier until the next patch (if any).

Diddy Kong is an interesting case. Perhaps he only loses 1 MU (Rosalina), perhaps even 0. Perhaps he loses several (Mario, Luigi, Lucario, Mega Man, Bayonetta**, Cloud**, Pikachu). Chances are most of the MU people think he might lose are just even MUs that are somewhat hard for Diddy. Of course, we need to keep in mind that if ZeRo played some other character, then Diddy might not have been considered top 5. I think he is, but there's room for doubt.

Sonic is an interesting case. He might lose to Cloud, which hurts. He might also lose to Bayonetta, which also hurts. Sonic's MU spread, against top tiers, strike me as fairly "even" though. He does quite well against high tiers and lower tiers, but that's no big surprise for a top tier character. Sonic is probably one of the most solid top tiers. I could see him being top 5.

*ESAM opinion.
**ZeRo opinion.

: The "burst" characters. These three have dangerous utility that makes people think of them being placed higher. A lot of people think that they should rise higher in the future, but ZSS already got her "she needs a raise" permission slip. The highest ZSS will ever be is a top six character. Some think Rosa is not top ten, but some think Rosa should be in top three even. I see a lot of people saying Fox should be higher, even in top three. I feel like Fox might rise to top six if he keeps up these consistent results with Larry Lurr. I could see him move to top six or even top five. Either way these characters are solid top tiers in my eyes.

These characters are quite interesting. As you said, they can be quite explosive (at least Fox and ZSS can, and Rosa has Luma jank). While they can be difficult to fight, they also have significant weaknesses which translates into several potentially bad MUs.

Fox is probably one of the top tiers with some of the wonkiest losses, potentially losing against Kirby and Luigi, as well as losing against some other characters. He's a character that could be #5 but could also be #8. I personally think he's really good.

Rosalina is interesting. She likely loses to Cloud and Meta Knight, at the very least. She probably loses to Corrin as well, and might lose a few other MUs (like Bayonetta). On the other hand, she potentially wins some of the most important MUs in top tier and high tier, such as Diddy Kong, Sheik, and Ryu. She (along with ZSS) has the advantage of being one of the strongest character against Bowser and Donkey Kong, which means she's less likely to be counter-picked by them. Unless the Cloud MU develops into a -2 (which I find highly unlikely), Rosalina will likely remain in top tier. She's a strong contender for the #6 slot, in my opinion.

And ZSS. She's borderline high tier but probably just enough to be considered top tier, barely. Probably ends up at #8. 8/55 (or 58 if you count Miis) is still pretty good, and she's a very viable character.

: These guys should be top of high tier instead of top tier in my opinion. I personally think that these guys are still good, but their results can not compete with the top eight. The one that I think should leave top tier the most is Ryu, his match ups are not great for a top tier despite people saying that Ryu has potential. His only good match ups with the top tier are Mario and Fox.

These characters are all good but with some notable flaws. I think Corrin should be added to this group (she might be better than some of these characters).

Mario is probably the most overrated character in the game right now (and has been ever since he won EVO 2016). ANTi's MU chart supports my argument. Mario losing -2 to Sonic really hurts, and -1 to Donkey Kong (common counter-pick character), ZSS, Marcina, Corrin, and Bayonetta also hurts (especially Bayonetta). The only +1 MU he has that really makes up for this is Sheik, which is nice but not quite enough to push him into top tier. Winning against Meta Knight, Greninja, Pikachu, and Captain Falcon is also really nice, though. These wins, along with him going even with a lot of top tiers, means that Mario will likely remain in top 15 for the forseeable future.

Of course, ANTi could be wrong about some of these MUs. Perhaps Dark Wizzy is correct. Sonic -2, Marcina, Cloud (!), Bayonetta -1. Potentially +1 vs Rosalina, as well as +1 vs Diddy Kong and Sheik. If this MU chart is correct (I think it's too optimistic), then Mario would be one of the best secondaries in the game. Additionally, he would probably be at the top of high tier or the bottom of top tier, perhaps around ZSS' level. Again though, I think Dark Wizzy is slightly too optimistic, but I acknowledge that I could be wrong.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Perhaps if you're REALLY generous, you could lump Pikachu or Luigi in that latter group (particularly the former).

 

[ARISTOS]

Perhaps if you're REALLY generous, you could lump Pikachu or Luigi in that latter group (particularly the former).

Not even.

3/4 characters in that group have won supernationals.

In that same span on time has barely come close

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Not even.

3/4 characters in that group have won supernationals.

In that same span on time has barely come close

If you’re going to put someone like Ryu in that group, then I don’t see why the other two would be unfitting.

Plus the obligatory opinion, m8. Don’t care if it gets me banned again!

 

[Blobulle]

Can Oli toss pikmin over flame thrower?

Well, if he tosses a pikmin in his flame thrower, it will immediately be stopped, and receive damage (unless it's a red pikmin).
What Olimar can do however, is to jump and then toss a pikmin. It will fly over most projectiles (especially if it's a yellow) and latch on the opponent. It's especially useful against laser camping.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

For future reference, mediocre is more like slightly worse than the middle. So it's kind of like "alright" or "decent" or "average", but slightly worse. So when you say something is mediocre, you make it sound like it's a bit worse than "okay" but not bad enough to be "bad". So, like, 5/10 while okay might be 6/10. Anyway, you've explained that you meant "alright" so let's not dwell on i.

Basically, from my understanding of the situation, you made the claim that Cloud's ground game was mediocre, while you meant that it was decent. Then people seemingly disagreed with you and tried to argue that Cloud's ground game is actually decent, which you thought meant they argued that it was good. So really, a lot of the discussion seems to be semantics: Both sides likely agree that Cloud's ground game isn't particularly good but not particularly bad either. It's decent.

That's my understanding of the situation, anyway. It's possible I'm misrepresenting someone's position, in which case, please correct me.

Nah I meant average. As it’s okay, pedestrian, etc...

Decent and good are above that.

Not that it matters anymore now, just clearing it up.

 

[Pyrover]

Can we get to some zard vs. olimar talk? Soulimar's MU chart makes me wonder.
Olimar obviously beats Zard in the air with his weaving but Zard's moves outrange Olimar's, Olimar's pikmin toss loses hard to flamethrower and only red pikmin can get through and Zard can easily knock those off with tilts or smashes.
The only thing I can see Zard losing hard too is Olimar's dash grab because Zard is combo food but Zard essentially kills Olimar's pikmin for free while Olimar has to rely on reds exclusively to avoid losing pikmin to flamethrower.
If Olimar has another advantage besides red pikmin and grab combos please explain it to me because I'm clueless as I previously said.

Reds go through flamethrower, obviously. Other Pikmin can be tossed over it via short hop.Furthermore, the most common misconception about Olimar is that killing Pikmin easily helps you against him. Not killing them easily is problematic, but he doesn't really care if they die, and any time you spend on them is just giving him a free opportunity to do whatever he wants. It really only helps if you have something like a Ness nair that kills everything on your body quickly and in a single hit.

Otherwise Charizard suffers from his terrible traction. Unless you have your perfect shielding down to the point where you can always do it, Zard can't reliably approach through a wall of F-smashes. His short hop aerials aren't fast enough to get around that when his air speed is accounted for either. And if you can neither approach him nor wall him out, Olimar wins. Also doesn't help that his normally okay grab combos become really threatening on heavy weights since he can just chain up air after up air.

Regarding the Soulimar chart: I've talked about Bayo and Cloud before and why I think they're even, or at least only -1's, so I'll skip them for now. The chart is somewhat pessimistic, but even if it's totally accurate, it's saying that Olimar only loses to 8 characters. All of which are meta relevant sure, but a handful of -1's isn't bad, and is to be expected on most of the cast. In regards to those remaining characters:

: Easily the two biggest issues here. Fox has ridiculous shield pressure that Olimar doesn't have a good way to contest, and getting caught in the vortex isn't fun. He also has a reflector to negate camping attempts and is noticeably faster. Olimar has some tricks to keep it playable, but it's definitely -2. Mewtwo contests ground space very well with frame 4 D-tilt and can casually reflect smashes and projectiles for free. His wonky jump arc means that he can reliably chase Olimar offstage regardless of what flight path is taken. He dies to things really early and doesn't get anything off Shadow Ball here, so it's not as bad as Fox. It's still not fun though.

: Easier than the chart implies, as she's entirely reliant on needles to beat you on the ground. It's just that Olimar suffers a lot against her frame data if he has to into the air. She suffers a lot from latched Pikmin since her moves aren't strong enough to knock them off right away, which lags everything she does and helps build damage. The kill power differential is in Olimar's favor, as it usually is against Sheik. Notably, the matchup becomes even when purple Pikmin are in play, and they stuff out most of Sheik's options and can punish her with death at outright stupid percentages if she makes a mistake. Olimar with multiple purples can actually bully her, so the matchup is super volatile based on her ability to kill them.

: Both doable, but they're in the right spot. Both specialize at hitting Olimar's blind spot, and can either choose when to engage (Peach) or outrange him (Corrin). Corrin is easier because she can get camped out sometimes, but both are doable -1's.

: Nobody likes this matchup regardless of who they are. Sonic complains that Pikmin block all his spindashes, Olimar complains that spindash kills all his Pikmin, spectators complain because nobody is getting hit, Sakurai complains because the game wasn't meant to be played like this, and the players complain because they were masochistic enough to play this matchup. It's slightly in Sonic's favor but is completely doable. Mostly comes down to who knows the matchup better, but Olimar has to work harder either way.

Angry Even Tier: For those who thought the chart was too pessimistic, this is just saying that it's an even matchup, but that it's annoying to play. I think Luigi and Ryu are easier than this implies, but either way, Luigi is even, and Ryu would be slightly advantageous if not for the blatant X-Factor he has here. Only one character here who really warrant particular mention:
: Sincerely not sure what Soulimar knows to make this even. His dash attack shreds all of Olimar's defenses and we can't beat him in the air. I've played it with the Great Gonzales and it's not a good time for the astronaut. Should probably be moved to -1.

Overall: If you take Soulimar's chart to be perfectly accurate, then that's 8 bad matchups, and more advantageous matchups than even ones. Not that pessimistic; befitting of a top twenty character. If you take these notes to be accurate, then Olimar starts to look really good, if still having a couple of problem matchups. Either way, the character is strong.

 

[|RK|]

PGR 11-20 is out!

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7phncn/top_50_smash_4_players_panda_global_rankings_v4/

WaDi is appropriately as high as I hoped/expected. People were expecting him to be in the 20s smh

 

[Deleted member]

PGR 11-20 is out!

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7phncn/top_50_smash_4_players_panda_global_rankings_v4/

WaDi is appropriately as high as I hoped/expected. People were expecting him to be in the 20s smh

Spoiler: ( Obviously )

WaDi best Mewtwo oh my goodness! This is hype for me! I am also pretty amazed that
Nice to see Elegant at top eleven, he truly showed his potential with Luigi. We all know ZeRo is still the best but I am curious if MkLeo will stay in second or Nairo will stay in third, as well as Dabuz staying in top four. I think Mr. R will be in the top tens. Last thing is I see a lot of people saying Salem is a top five player, and I kind of agree. Some even consider him second, but who knows.

 

[The-Technique]

who would have thought we'd have a solo Luigi main just one rank shy of top 10 in terms of skill and results, globally?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Mario is probably the most overrated character in the game right now

Quite the opposite imo, people downplay him a lot and usually just dismiss him by saying "just keep him out".

 

[ShadowGuy1]

This is such an amazing list of players in 11-20 and I always find this section to be more interesting because of story arcs and how basically all of these players have potential to be top 10. A solo Luigi main at 11th, a solo Corrin at 17th, the huge rise from the like 43 to 12th for WaDi, the list goes on.

Speaking of a Corrin, I remember when Nairo Saga finished many thought Corrin would drop because of Cosmos’s mediocre run there but now this season we have 2 in the PGR. What do you guys think about Corrin in the meta?

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Quite the opposite imo, people downplay him a lot and usually just dismiss him by saying "just keep him out".

I share the same thoughts, in that Mario feels downplayed a significant amount of the time. While I don't find him to be as strong in the meta as he was in 2016, he's still very much so a competent character and I wouldn't call for him falling out of top tier unless his "fall from grace" if you want to call it that, becomes drastic enough.

Take Ally's fundamentals and Zenyou's incredible combo game, mix 'em together, and you get *theoretically* optimal Mario, who happens to be a pretty strong character. Still has issues with approach and has mediocre range, but can still get around it most of the time with his good speed and excellent frame data. I know Ally hasn't been as active lately, so once he gets back onto the scene and improves his combo game (along with Zenyou continuing to improve), I don't think it'll be as easy for Mario to fall out of top tier as expected.

Out of the characters in the lower realms of top tier, I think the one(s) most in danger of falling out of top tier isn't Mario, but rather Marth and Ryu. Marth's results have been dropping off significantly since Mr. E dual mains with Lucina and Leo has been using more and more Cloud. Ryu's results have been inconsistent for a top tier for a while, despite his amazing combo game and strong KO potential. Mario and Mewtwo are safer from falling out of top tier because their player base is stronger and while their results have dipped a bit, it's not to the extent of Marth and Ryu.

On the topic of the power rankings, I think they're pretty accurate so far. Can't wait to see how the top 10 shape up.

 

[The-Technique]

I think Marth will still be healthy in the meta as long as Mr. E keeps competing and improving (he's preferred Lucina lately but I think its mostly preference, plus they're basically the same character) and MK Leo keeps using Marth as a comfort pick vs Bayo, Sheik, and Mario too.

Ryu has definitely taken a hit though, can't deny that.

 

[Heracr055]

Ryu's been doing alright despite not winning majors. His results put him in top 11 for this past season per DasKoopa's updates. DarkShad has been turning it up in the latter half of 2017, and I can't wait to see where his momentum takes him. I'm also anticipant of whether Locus' new sponsorship will boost his performance in the new year.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm more surprised with Ally not being in top 10 anymore, Mistake above him and Abadango, and Elegant not breaking into top 10 to kick out Mr.R.
Not sure if it's bias or not, but I genuinely think elegant has got more wins and placings as of late over Mr.R especially since Elegant defeated him in the last chance qualifiers, beat fatality and Larry too and got into final bracket for 2ggc championships getting first over Salem Dabuz Ally and Nairo (3 of 4 that we know by now is top 10 in PGR, albeit he only beat nairo salem ally and not dabuz so 2 of 10 in bracket + larry win earlier), but it's only a guess of thinking in terms of results/placings Elegant > Mr.R

 

[BunbUn129]

Marth's placement number-wise is perfectly fine, but assuming both S- and A-tiers can be equated to top, then he isn't top-tier. It's not so much to do with him falling off or something but more to do with my idea of top-tier being stricter than most others' (somewhere in the realm of 6-8 characters: Bayonetta, Cloud, Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Rosa being the definite 6, in that order). With @Das Koopa's charts in mind (thank you based Das for putting in the effort for these things, idk how I'd catch up and get a general idea of where things are going after a long hiatus), Marth is one of those characters whose theory is a notch better than his results: his match-ups against the top- and high-tiers are all even or +/-1 in either direction. Ryu on the other hand is a different story and one that I will not speak of for fear of waking up the sleeping dragon that is Emblem Lord.

I find Meta Knight is in a similar spot to Marth, and after watching Leo's recent performances with Borb, I think he could deserve a slightly higher spot. Leo takes that linear playstyle many, including myself, deride MK for, puts it in a blender, and hits frappe. I remember years ago, during the good old days of early 2015, when Diddy's incessant Hoo-Hahing earned him the ire of many, and I was just sitting and trying so many weird options out of MK's down throw, one of which was SH dair. And I wanted to be that annoying person who always says "I knew that before!" when I saw Leo doing just that on Zero and/or Tweek (watched both sets right after each other so I might mix things up). He even did d throw-> rar dair, which reminded me of a d throw -> dair -> bair combo that he pulled off way back when, which I wrote off as a one-off at the time. At one point, after carrying Tweek's DK offstage with up airs, Leo retreated back onstage instead of finishing the combo with an upb (a non-guaranteed kill), even though the SV platform was below him, and this only turned out to be conditioning on his part, as he quickly jumped back up to finish DK off with a bair (guaranteed KO). It's amazing to see how when Leo is comfortable with MK, he blends a relatively reserved neutral game seamlessly with a patient disadvantage state and an advantage that is always in high-gear.

It's not all roses, though. MK's match-ups are fairly polarizing. Sonic in particular is a pain when he has the lead: at at least one point during Leo's set with KEN at MK Leo Saga, Leo was chasing down Sonic right and left, trying and failing several times to get an opener. Sonic in the lead is chore to fight and MK's lack of a projectile makes it even more tedious. It might not be so disadvantageous as it is annoying.

That being said, Leo's clean playstyle and innovations with MK give hope to character, and I think he is better than the likes of Pikachu, Corrin, Lucina, and Ryu.

Edit: on Leo, I think Cloud is actually holding him back from even better results. The meta is so oversaturated with Cloud players that mastering him is probably leading to diminishing returns. Obviously Marth and MK aren't as familiar with most people.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I'm more surprised with Ally not being in top 10 anymore, Mistake above him and Abadango, and Elegant not breaking into top 10 to kick out Mr.R.
Not sure if it's bias or not, but I genuinely think elegant has got more wins and placings as of late over Mr.R especially since Elegant defeated him in the last chance qualifiers, beat fatality and Larry too and got into final bracket for 2ggc championships getting first over Salem Dabuz Ally and Nairo (3 of 4 that we know by now is top 10 in PGR, albeit he only beat nairo salem ally and not dabuz so 2 of 10 in bracket + larry win earlier), but it's only a guess of thinking in terms of results/placings Elegant > Mr.R

I actually don’t think LCQ counted. Looking at Cosmos’s card I didn’t see it or his win on Mr.R

 

[MERPIS]

What do people think about Mewtwo’s spot at the moment? Are we seeing now that he is rather ridiculous or are we saying he’s bad like we did a few months back?

 

[Laken64]

I'm more surprised with Ally not being in top 10 anymore, Mistake above him and Abadango, and Elegant not breaking into top 10 to kick out Mr.R.
Not sure if it's bias or not, but I genuinely think elegant has got more wins and placings as of late over Mr.R especially since Elegant defeated him in the last chance qualifiers, beat fatality and Larry too and got into final bracket for 2ggc championships getting first over Salem Dabuz Ally and Nairo (3 of 4 that we know by now is top 10 in PGR, albeit he only beat nairo salem ally and not dabuz so 2 of 10 in bracket + larry win earlier), but it's only a guess of thinking in terms of results/placings Elegant > Mr.R

What Mr R has over Elegant is consistency. Yes Elegant has higher peaks but he also has a string of 17ths in other S tiers besides GTX and the 2GG Championship while Mr R has been getting top 8 or 9ths at multiple S tiers, 17th at EVO being his worst placing this season (both tied for 17th there lol). Mr R also has that win on zero that elegant doesn't have (yet hopefully) on top of his other wins on the top ten. I'm not denying Elegant's amazing runs but for him to break the thin line of top ten he needs to find that consistency of a top 10 player though he is a constant threat to any top player in his way so its a small yet tricky barrier for him imo.

 

[The_Bookworm]

FOW got 13th at Nairo Saga, TTG got 5th at Royal Flush, NAKAT got 13th at EVO 2017 using Ness for the majority (and still obtains good results with the character), and Gackt got 17th at Big House 7. Proceeds to drop to 28th.

Lucas obtains merely average representation and results, got a mix of buffs and nerfs from Brawl, and his only large result is Taiheita's 17th placement at Super Smash Con 2016. Proceeds to increase to 29th.

Can someone please explain this. I can somehow understand Ness's drop, but how did Lucas increase this high??? I would personally consider him around Yoshi's position, especially considering that Japan is really strating to learn the Lucas matchup.

Good list overall.

 

[The_Bookworm]

*starting to learn

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

What do people think about Mewtwo’s spot at the moment? Are we seeing now that he is rather ridiculous or are we saying he’s bad like we did a few months back?

I think he's fine right where he is. While his weight is still terrible and his matchups against Diddy and Cloud are not good, he can still do reasonably well against many of the other top tier characters and continues to have strong results. He hasn't been increasing strongly in potential lately, nor has he been drastically fallen off. So...I think he's fine in 10th place right now.

 

[Shaya]

You’re actually agreeing me thesis-wise, as I see “alright” as synonymous with “mediocre”; they don’t stand out, like a C grade level.

Also, correct my errors if present, but from what I’m reading, cloud has a good ground game because of the threat of his aerial moves whenever he’s jumping? That his movement specs (frame 4 jumpsquat, etc...) allows him to transition from ground to air seemingly, which also aids to the threat of his aerials?

If anything, if this what you’re meaning, this just goes to show how powerful cloud’s aerials are.

Regardless of how fluid cloud’s ground to air transitions are, if the moves he uses are aerials, then all that tells me is that his ground game just enhances his aerial game by transmitting cloud to his most powerful position in a accessible manner; this doesn’t make cloud’s ground game any better by itself. Cloud still has a mediocre poke, a nice Utilt, a nice jab, a situational Dtilt, situational smashes, and a situational DA. Cloud threatens his opponents with his aerial game, which prolly does make predicting their movements easier, but even with this advantage, all it takes is a shield, which keeps it as a hard read because you’re betting it all on this DA/Dtilt to hit.

What exactly is the importance of a ground game?
Because jumping is a commitment that reduces a characters options.
Being on the ground, doing nothing* [feints of movement that are 'safe' at mid range sometimes included] is the most option rich state. Rosa might be able to jab with luma but that's a rare trait.
Smart Cloud play still stems from the ground - just that the fluidity of his transitions allows him to negate why most characters need a ground game for - to avoid vulnerability to then transition into the air in advantage state (or to sneak in an aerial starter through 'reads').

A player cannot 'react' to Cloud (or anyone) jumping, his combination of extremely safe highly mobile rising options that have less lag windows with auto cancels than most character's entire relevant ground movesets.
To a Cloud player, or for an overall evaluation of options - there really isn't a difference.

To say 'just shield' means you're expecting Cloud to jump. Of course Cloud is likely to jump, but are you going to know exactly when and how? It's probably in the same situation that an opponent would be going 'okay, avoid that jab or ftilt!' vs someone else.
You can't just sit there letting Cloud hit your shield.
A lot of Cloud game play at this time involves jumping into landing back airs - this of course 'loses' to shield (if you can call it losing... lol) and is reactable - this 'option' range is not what I'm focusing on here but you do need to respect this on top of the rising aerial options as whiffing equates to being smashed in the face.
To deal with everything Cloud does requires movement, not shield. Nothing is stopping him from grabbing you either and being pushed to the ledge or off stage is extremely detrimental verses him. His ground moves are amazing for the soft reads of movement as Cloud plays his ground game (if he so chooses).
Cloud in the lead might just only attempt to zone with back air - why not? It's easy and effective. Players aren't good at dealing with this yet (if it took like a year for down air to stop being 'okay' in neutral, imagine how long it'll take for half the vulnerability [both range and frame wise] - it's not a linear scenario).

Originally my post had a bit of a diatribe on Sheik's ground game not being that spectacular either (hers is notably better for sure), so my bad, don't read too much into the word choice of "alright".

 

[The_Bookworm]

*Here comes the rant comments. This is my personal tier list.

Top
S- Bayonetta, Cloud, Diddy
A- Rosalina, Sheik, Sonic, Fox, ZSS, Mario, Mewtwo, Marth, Ryu

High
B- Corrin, Lucina, MK, Pikachu, Luigi, Peach, Falcon, Lucario
C- Olimar, DK, Greninja, Villager, Toon Link, Ness, Mega Man, Bowser

Mid
D- Duck Hunt, Link, Pit / Dark Pit, Yoshi / Lucas, Samus, Shulk, R.O.B., Robin
E- Ike, Game & Watch, Wario, Roy, Charizard

Low
F- Little Mac, Pac-Man, Palutena, Falco, Bowser Jr., Wii Fit, Dr. Mario / Kirby
G- Ganondorf, Dedede, Mii Gunner, Zelda, Mii Sword, Jigglypuff, Mii Brawl

*I am happy to reply to your comments!

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

FOW got 13th at Nairo Saga, TTG got 5th at Royal Flush, NAKAT got 13th at EVO 2017 using Ness for the majority (and still obtains good results with the character), and Gackt got 17th at Big House 7. Proceeds to drop to 28th.

Lucas obtains merely average representation and results, got a mix of buffs and nerfs from Brawl, and his only large result is Taiheita's 17th placement at Super Smash Con 2016. Proceeds to increase to 29th.

Can someone please explain this. I can somehow understand Ness's drop, but how did Lucas increase this high??? I would personally consider him around Yoshi's position, especially considering that Japan is really strating to learn the Lucas matchup.

Good list overall.

Ness while having good results last year mostly dropped a bit too make room for the rise of characters like Bowser and DK. His mains frankly just don't show up to stuff enough or can't. FOW is gone, Shaky stays local, TGG mains Diddy now. The most active Ness uses him as a secondary in NAKAT, while equally as good Ness mains like Gackt, Taranito and S1 don't get a lot of exposure due to being not from the USA. I think his placing is good right now he could be a bit higher just needs his players to travel more.

Lucas on the other hand while a good character gets carried really hard by theory and I'm not exactly sure why. I think he can prove his should be where people want him to be but he has to prove that first.

 

[MERPIS]

Good lord man we might as well name Mewtwo the 10th character from now until then end of this game's lifespan, no matter what happens he just stays there and sits on his arse.

 

[The_Bookworm]

"Ness while having good results last year mostly dropped a bit too make room for the rise of characters like Bowser and DK. His mains frankly just don't show up to stuff enough or can't. FOW is gone, Shaky stays local, TGG mains Diddy now. The most active Ness uses him as a secondary in NAKAT, while equally as good Ness mains like Gackt, Taranito and S1 don't get a lot of exposure due to being not from the USA. I think his placing is good right now he could be a bit higher just needs his players to travel more.

Lucas on the other hand while a good character gets carried really hard by theory and I'm not exactly sure why. I think he can prove his should be where people want him to be but he has to prove that first."

I am new to Smashboards although I have been playing SSB4 for a few years now, and don't know how to use the quoting tool.

Thanks for the hindsight. Considering that this list uses advice from more regions, it makes sense. Btw, NAKAT uses Ness as a co-main, not a secondary.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Overall: If you take Soulimar's chart to be perfectly accurate, then that's 8 bad matchups, and more advantageous matchups than even ones. Not that pessimistic; befitting of a top twenty character. If you take these notes to be accurate, then Olimar starts to look really good, if still having a couple of problem matchups. Either way, the character is strong.

The way I see it, it is better to have two -2 MUs than 1 -2 MU. So it would be better for Olimar to have 11 -1 MUs instead of 5 -1 Mus and 3 -2 MUs. As for him being top 20 with that MU spread: I suppose it's plausible, it's not like the characters below him have amazing MU charts either. That's not the point though: Olimar players have been talking about him like he's a top 15 character, but that's not the MU chart of a top 15 character. That's why I called it pessimistic.

It's also more pessimistic than Myran's old MU chart.

New MU chart for Olimar! pic.twitter.com/ocUEIW5Hyp

— Myran (@MyranSSB) July 19, 2017

Five losing MUs, two of which are -2. I disagree with the Corrin placement though, I don't see how that's any worse than -1 for Olimar. I think that MU chart is a bit too optimistic though, heh. Gotta find a balance, I suppose. Anyway, Olimar probably belongs somewhere around #18-#22.

What do you guys think about Corrin in the meta?

I think Corrin is a very solid character that +1 most of the cast aside from top tiers and does decently against most top tiers (only losing -1 to a few), and I personally think she wins +1 against Mario and Rosalina (as well as having a good shot at +1 vs Pikachu) She probably belongs somewhere around #10-#13 on the tier list. She beats nearly everyone below her on the tier list (mostly +1, she's not Cloud or Bayonetta, but still). She's a high tier, not too far away from top tier but I doubt she'll ever be top tier. I could see her being better than Mario and Marth, even. I also think Cosmos has a decent shot at top 10 next PGR season (although he might just as well end up in top 20 or top 30, Fatality did worse than that).

I share the same thoughts, in that Mario feels downplayed a significant amount of the time. While I don't find him to be as strong in the meta as he was in 2016, he's still very much so a competent character and I wouldn't call for him falling out of top tier unless his "fall from grace" if you want to call it that, becomes drastic enough.

One of my issues with Mario in top tier is that there are characters below him who I believe to be better. Either they would have to raise into top tier (which I'm doubtful of) or Mario would have to fall out of it. It's possible I'm underrating Mario though, but if so, then ANTi is as well.

Proceeds to drop to 28th.

Ness, as a character, was deeply hurt by DLC, as well as the buffs to Marth and Lucina. He still has major Rosalina problems as well, and his matchups against top tiers and high tiers tend to be either -1 or even. He's not a bad character, but he's not really that impressive anymore in the current meta. Unless something happens to push Ness' metagame to new levels, I suspect Ness will fall even further in the next tier list. I would be happy to be proven wrong, since I find top level Ness very fun to watch.

*Here comes the rant comments. This is my personal tier list.

It's... basically the 4BR tier list with a few adjustments? Seems pretty good to me. I could nitpick some things but I won't.

What do people think about Mewtwo’s spot at the moment? Are we seeing now that he is rather ridiculous or are we saying he’s bad like we did a few months back?

Well... He's probably better than Mario, so he could move up a spot. It's possible Corrin is better than him, though right now I'm leaning towards Mewtwo being better than Corrin. #9 and at the top of high tier seems good to me. Mewtwo is a good character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

"It's... basically the 4BR tier list with a few adjustments? Seems pretty good to me. I could nitpick some things but I won't."

As I said before, I am overall alright with the list. My personal lists usually uses the official list as a base for mine.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Reds go through flamethrower, obviously. Other Pikmin can be tossed over it via short hop

No he can't, charizard can angle his flamethrower upwards to intercept SH pikmin toss, does everyone forget that flamethrower and fire breath can be angled? It seems like everyone does.
Also 'being able to do whatever he wants'? Like what? Mainly he's going to be plucking more pikmin, f-smash loses hard to zard's ftilt and dsmash which while it has awful endlag hits both the pikmin and olimar behind it, flamethrower beats both dash grab AND non-red pikmin fsmash and depending on where zard is even fsmash might be applicable. One x-factor that zard has that makes it difficult for Olimar is Zards abilty to hit multiple opponents with one move and his surprisingly good rolls.
You don't want to shield with zard because of his poor traction so you're mainly going to be dodge rolling which covers a LOT of ground really easily.
Most players ignore or discount dodge rolls because it requires a longer FAF than if you simply drop your shield but in zard's case learning how to dodge roll is an absolute necessity due to his poor traction and because of Olimar's poor range and because nearly all of his moves except nair and dash attack rely on him having a pikmin on hand zard's dodge rolls and range on his ground based attacks make him an absolute nightmare, add in the super armor on rock smash and fly and you run into a 'damned if you do' (trying to approach a campy zard is practically suicide),
'damned if you don't' (zard can simply ignore the pikmin attached to him and take advantage of the fact that he's a faster dasher than Olimar to close any gaps that Olimar might put between him and zard plus he actually can get away with throwing out reactionary forward and down smashes to hit both olimar and pikmin because of their ground dash speed) situation.

 

[The_Bookworm]

"It's... basically the 4BR tier list with a few adjustments? Seems pretty good to me. I could nitpick some things but I won't."

As I said before, I am overall alright with the list. My personal lists usually uses the official list as a base for mine.

Also, I know that characters like Luigi and Olimar advanced over Ness in terms of results, and that Rosalina, Marth, and Corrin are especially troublesome matchups for Ness. He is an odd character in the metagame: he does well on lower tiered characters and some charcters ranked above him like Pikachu and Ryu, but struugles against top tiered characters, especially the above mentioned characters. I think being in the 26-28th spot is well deserved for the time being, and I hope he keeps up the effort in 2018.

 

[The_Bookworm]

On Samsora's Peach matchup chart, he forgot to put Lucas in there. XD

 

[Wintermelon43]

What do people think about Mewtwo’s spot at the moment? Are we seeing now that he is rather ridiculous or are we saying he’s bad like we did a few months back?

Personally, I think he's the lowest top tier (#9) and could potentially be higher if more people used him (since for some reason few people use him). He has great moblity, great kill power, great recovery, a great projectile, etc and his only big flaw is how easy it is to kill him. He has a good matchup spread too, his only bad matchup is Cloud (He loses to Bayonetta and probably Sheik too, but it's only a slight loss).

Most people think he's a high tier right near Marth and Ryu though...... You guys kill me on the inside lol

 

[TDK]

"It's... basically the 4BR tier list with a few adjustments? Seems pretty good to me. I could nitpick some things but I won't."

As I said before, I am overall alright with the list. My personal lists usually uses the official list as a base for mine.

Here's a tip: there's a reply button in the corner of everyone's post that'll alert them when you respond to them, like what I did here. Enjoy your stay.

Also, here's some food for thought: Since we now know who the top 10 is, there is 32 different character represented on the PGR, and maybe an additional one if Nairo's bowser is included. That's over half the cast.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

What exactly is the importance of a ground game?
Because jumping is a commitment that reduces a characters options.
Being on the ground, doing nothing* [feints of movement that are 'safe' at mid range sometimes included] is the most option rich state. Rosa might be able to jab with luma but that's a rare trait.
Smart Cloud play still stems from the ground - just that the fluidity of his transitions allows him to negate why most characters need a ground game for - to avoid vulnerability to then transition into the air in advantage state (or to sneak in an aerial starter through 'reads').

A player cannot 'react' to Cloud (or anyone) jumping, his combination of extremely safe highly mobile rising options that have less lag windows with auto cancels than most character's entire relevant ground movesets.
To a Cloud player, or for an overall evaluation of options - there really isn't a difference.

To say 'just shield' means you're expecting Cloud to jump. Of course Cloud is likely to jump, but are you going to know exactly when and how? It's probably in the same situation that an opponent would be going 'okay, avoid that jab or ftilt!' vs someone else.
You can't just sit there letting Cloud hit your shield.
A lot of Cloud game play at this time involves jumping into landing back airs - this of course 'loses' to shield (if you can call it losing... lol) and is reactable - this 'option' range is not what I'm focusing on here but you do need to respect this on top of the rising aerial options as whiffing equates to being smashed in the face.
To deal with everything Cloud does requires movement, not shield. Nothing is stopping him from grabbing you either and being pushed to the ledge or off stage is extremely detrimental verses him. His ground moves are amazing for the soft reads of movement as Cloud plays his ground game (if he so chooses).
Cloud in the lead might just only attempt to zone with back air - why not? It's easy and effective. Players aren't good at dealing with this yet (if it took like a year for down air to stop being 'okay' in neutral, imagine how long it'll take for half the vulnerability [both range and frame wise] - it's not a linear scenario).

Originally my post had a bit of a diatribe on Sheik's ground game not being that spectacular either (hers is notably better for sure), so my bad, don't read too much into the word choice of "alright".

Maaaan, this is a fun discussion lol. Really in-depth and thorough.

But anyways,

My shield comment specifically addresses Dtilt and DA, arguing that they’re still hard reads no matter how easier it is to read people’s movement. They suck on shield and are easily punishable. “Hard” and “soft” from my perspective isn’t based on ease of opportunity, but the risk/reward ratio. A bowser using a charged Fsmash to punish a roll is one for example.

You could land a thousand DAs/Dtilts in a row, but if you risk taking upwards of >50% each time you get shielded, it’s still a hard read. The read being easier doesn’t change the hardness or softness of a read, as that’s based on the State of the player. Determining the hardness and softness of a read based on how likely it’s able to hit Severely depends a highly unstable and rapidly changing variable known as the “opponent.” It’s a lottery at that point.

And this:

Smart Cloud play still stems from the ground - just that the fluidity of his transitions allows him to negate why most characters need a ground game for - to avoid vulnerability to then transition into the air in advantage state (or to sneak in an aerial starter through 'reads').

You basically just said cloud’s ground-air and air-ground movements (frame 4 jumpsquat, huge sweeping aerials that start early, fast air speed and low lag) allows him to bypass the necessity of having an exceptional ground game.

Also this:

A player cannot 'react' to Cloud (or anyone) jumping, his combination of extremely safe highly mobile rising options that have less lag windows with auto cancels than most character's entire relevant ground movesets.
To a Cloud player, or for an overall evaluation of options - there really isn't a difference.

You’re basically saying cloud’s options in the air are sooo good, a cloud player can’t feel the difference in options between ground and air? That it doesn’t matter to them?

What I’m still gathering from this information is that cloud’a aerial game and his ability to go from ground to air and then Visa versa is sooo good, he doesn’t need to have the ground game others have; his is good enough on its own. And to clarify, I’m not listing cloud’s ground game as a weakness, it’s just a dull area of his that lacks the versatility of some truly amazing ground games like Diddy Kong, Rosalina, Donkey Kong’s sidekick, Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Fox, Mac (of course), Mario, and um, Diddy Kong.

And to clarify, Cloud’s ground game being average doesn’t take away its importance; it’s average, not bad. However, I think compared to his aerial game, which is the best in the game imho, smart cloud play involves the ground, but not centered on it.

Which brings me to this:

Smart Cloud play still stems from the ground

I disagree with this, as cloud depends on his aerial game for practically everything; his ground game works as an assistant, not the main role, and as such, much focus on into the air and all its application, whereas working on the ground is for those wanting to break their plateau and ascend into higher levels (like fundamentals and tech).

And to comment on your other stuff, it’s harder to determine how long it will take for counterplay of cloud’s a back air to come up, since on one hand, every cloud does it when their opponent is on the ledge, or close to it. Spaced right, it’s safe on shield easily, is fat and long, kills amazingly, and is just broken lol. Like braw mk’s down air or something idek.

Nothing is stopping him from grabbing you either and being pushed to the ledge or off stage is extremely detrimental verses him.

Super true, this makes him like a pseudo 50/50s character on the ground, which does bump up his ground game to a above-average

Which.......um.......w-which then.........um... m-makes.......his ground game.............................Slightly Slightly Slightly ever so Slightly above-average?

On then forreal, having that fake 50/50s game does make his ground game a bit better, even if it’s one-track in use.

One thing that sucks is that eventually this conversation will get burried and we’ll be on page #250 and we’ll forget about all this and then somebody will say something like,” Cloud’s ground game is bad; he can’t do anything special on the ground,” to which people will get mad saying,” we talked about this before, where were you,” but then the fact of the matter is looking for this kinda stuff is like looking for a specific conversation in a book with an ever-increasing page number. Which sucks. A lot.