Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MarioManTAW]

Another update: Ultimate seems to use the same anti-chaingrab technique as Smash 4, but now it is visualized with yellow flashing.
EDIT: Another visual note is that characters now appear angry when rage is activated. How fitting.

 

[|RK|]

Oh, oh yeah. Plus, the general speed increase. I’m not surprised that Kirby got a pretty good reception. Hbox is apparently thinking about going Kirby in Ultimate if Jiggs is a bust.

Perhaps not surprisingly, Nintemco seemed to have adjusted Sonic into less of a bait and punish and more of a general brawler/rushdown akin to Mario. Dabuz noted that current Sonic mains may not like the changes, but Sonic has better buttons to compensate for the nerf to spin dash.

Yeah, Kirby is solid so far, but we'll see if his changes are enough. My playtime with him has me mildly worried, but some small things are looking nice.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I understand that too, but it's still the demo and anything can change until the end of this year. So let's hope for the best. |RK| Has anyone used Kirby's Uthrow yet at all? How strong is it?

 

[The_Bookworm]

According to Nairo, Ryu actually auto corrects while attacking too, so if you try to get past his light up tilts by getting behind him, he'll actually just turn around automatically and continue.

I also got a couple of games in at Nintendo NY. Tried out Inklings, who were fun of course, as well as Mewtwo. Man, something about Mewtwo in Ultimate is absurd, at least in that build. I think Confusion -> Jab might be a true combo (my opponent wisely knew to instictively jump away after getting confused but couldn't seem to escape the jab follow-up). More importantly, Mewtwo's aerials are absurd. Like back-air in Smash 4 feels "okay." Back-air in Ultimate feels like I can easily mess anyone up.

The only thing Mewtwo mains will have to get used to again is only having one air dodge. I could feel myself just pressing dodge to phase in and out, only to be vulnerable because I couldn't retaliate out of it in time.

Re: Sonic

I think the biggest deal with Sonic is that he can no longer spin cancel. Even though he seems better in many other areas, I think this is a big deal for both playing against him and for retaining viewership.

Ryu might be the best character of that build. That is actually insane! If only some Ryu professionals physically came to the event....

They made Mewtwo able to move before Confusion ends, so he can easily combo off of it. Mewtwo is kinda of a mixed bag in this game, gaining some tools while losing some in the process.

The Spin Dash nerf was a smart move in Sakurai's part, as Sonic cannot play defensively as well (or not at all) anymore, and forces more aggressive play. Another example is the Bullet Climax nerf, as you cannot cancel the move once you activate it.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Mewtwo is completely bonkers in SmUsh due to being way faster than Smash 4. Long live the meme.

 

[Yonder]

Mewtwo is completely bonkers in SmUsh due to being way faster than Smash 5. Long live the meme.

I mean...isn't everyone faster in smash 5? It sure looks like it. Bowser runs so fast now that "it's scary" according to Dabuz.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I mean...isn't everyone faster in smash 5? It sure looks like it. Bowser runs so fast now that "it's scary" according to Dabuz.

He is also going to be crazy with the universal frame 3 jumpsquat, pretty much alleviating one of his core weaknesses that has been plaguing him in previous entries. He does not have his up throw combos anymore, but alleviating a large issue is far more significant for him, especially with the other buffs given to him.

 

[Minordeth]

Apparently, Ruben (of Ruben’s calculator) determined rage is still in the game. I’m not surprised, but the fact that Bill Trinen talked about it like it was an ongoing process, and the fact that it wasn’t talked about or advertised at all by the devs, makes me think they are heavily tweaking it. Pretty much every report mentioned that if it was in the game, it was more subtle.

The idea may be to scale it so that it becomes noticeably stronger after 120%. Once the invitational was over, most impressions I got seemed to suggest that most stocks were taken in the 100-115% range, and frequently less. Keep in mind, this is with everyone being completely unoptimized and figuring out a new game.

Presumably, rage scales later, it would act as less of a regular factor in a normal game and more a factor in extreme corcumstances.

 

[MERPIS]

Mewtwo is completely bonkers in SmUsh due to being way faster than Smash 5. Long live the meme.

He has even more range in this game than he already did

 

[The_Bookworm]

Is it just me, or does Marth's range seem smaller in Ultimate than in SSB4's. His sword feels roughly around Brawl's size.

 

[|RK|]

I understand that too, but it's still the demo and anything can change until the end of this year. So let's hope for the best. |RK| Has anyone used Kirby's Uthrow yet at all? How strong is it?

I used it twice. It feels weaker or like... exactly the same. The only time it killed was... I forget, Ike or Snake? At 130 on the BF platform. Angle looks different, but that could be because of bad DI.

When I used it at about 110 off the ground, it didn't kill. Which isn't too surprising.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I used it twice. It feels weaker or like... exactly the same. The only time it killed was... I forget, Ike or Snake? At 130 on the BF platform. Angle looks different, but that could be because of bad DI.

When I used it at about 110 off the ground, it didn't kill. Which isn't too surprising.

They nerfed grabs in this game overall, as the throws are usually not as useful as before. There are exceptions such as:

1. Zelda's down throw still combos, and her up throw combos more reliably.
2. Ness's back throw is still as stupid strong as ever.

There are no longer pivot grabs in the game as well, although that might change in the future.

 

[J0eyboi]

The only thing Mewtwo mains will have to get used to again is only having one air dodge.

And Dtilt being trash.

 

[MERPIS]

And Dtilt being trash.

If you actually think dtilt is trash, again get your eyes checked. It has only a little more lag and in exchange it gets so much more range
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIVuR02HL6A&feature=youtu.be

 

[The_Bookworm]

If you actually think dtilt is trash, again get your eyes checked. It has only a little more lag and in exchange it gets so much more range
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIVuR02HL6A&feature=youtu.be

ML! Mew2King ended that guy's smash career before the game is even released.

 

[MERPIS]

ML! Mew2King ended that guy's smash career before the game is even released.

based m2k

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

A tweet is floating around saying that grab tech's are not in. It only happens if grabs are done on the same frame.

https://twitter.com/TheReflexWonder/status/1008086388447866882?s=20

What esports articles are you guys finding? I have only seen forbes and nintendoeverything.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

There also seems to be some changes to hitstun in ultimate.

 

[MERPIS]

There also seems to be some changes to hitstun in ultimate.

If that's true then M2 has a true ken combo at extremely low percents. The hitstun really reminds me of melee hitstun where the character in the state would actually fall for a bit after being launched until they're able to act again.

 

[|RK|]

They nerfed grabs in this game overall, as the throws are usually not as useful as before. There are exceptions such as:

1. Zelda's down throw still combos, and her up throw combos more reliably.
2. Ness's back throw is still as stupid strong as ever.

There are no longer pivot grabs in the game as well, although that might change in the future.

Nah, pivot grabs are still there. You just can't cross up shields by running through them.

Kirby's fthrow still combos, too. Fthrow uair might be gone, too.

 

[The_Bookworm]

If that's true then M2 has a true ken combo at extremely low percents. The hitstun really reminds me of melee hitstun where the character in the state would actually fall for a bit after being launched until they're able to act again.

That is funny, because a lot of people is saying that combo'ing is hard because of the hitstun.

Nah, pivot grabs are still there. You just can't cross up shields by running through them.

Yeah, they fixed that piece of info. Opps.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

When I look at Leo vs Plup, I saw that Bayonetta actually has 4 jumps in total. 1 Normal Jump and 3 Double Jumps. You can see the circle, meaning that she double jumps.

ZeRo clip this, here is his analysis...

This is actually pretty busted..

 

[MERPIS]

When I look at Leo vs Plup, I saw that Bayonetta actually has 4 jumps in total. 1 Normal Jump and 3 Double Jumps. You can see the circle, meaning that she double jumps.

ZeRo clip this, here is his analysis...

This is actually pretty busted..

pleaseletitbeabugpleaseletitbeabugpleaseletitbeabug

 

[The_Bookworm]

When I look at Leo vs Plup, I saw that Bayonetta actually has 4 jumps in total. 1 Normal Jump and 3 Double Jumps. You can see the circle, meaning that she double jumps.

ZeRo clip this, here is his analysis...

This is actually pretty busted..

So instead of fixing the triple jump glitch, they made it worse.

I wouldn't call it "busted", but that is actual BS. lol

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Smash 5 event in jpn starts in 29 mins. Link is in the tweet.
https://twitter.com/ORNGSTAR/status/1008126651396493312?s=19

 

[MERPIS]

Smash 5 event in jpn starts in 29 mins. Link is in the tweet.
https://twitter.com/ORNGSTAR/status/1008126651396493312?s=19

If we don't get wario or villager play from this I will be very upset

 

[The_Bookworm]

If we don't get wario or villager play from this I will be very upset

Villager is part of the demo (and received mad buffs that ZeRo commented on), but I don't think Wario is.

 

[Galaxeon]

I thought the "4-jumps" glitch was already in Smash 4. It's just that Witch Twist (either 1st or 2nd one) cancels the double-jump and gives it back if it is done within a few (maybe 2/3, don't recall exactly) frames after the jump. I'm pretty sure I've already seen Mistake use that in Smash 4 at some point in a tournament. Usually, jumping before the first Witch Twist is almost pointless though.

Unless in Smash 4 only the second witch twist can cancel the jump and I'm wrong. Either way, triple or quadruple jump doesn't matter. It should just be removed altogether, but I'm fine with simply nerfing the knockback angle on Witch Twist (which they obviously did) to make it less reliable to combo into.

 

[MERPIS]

Villager is part of the demo (and received mad buffs that ZeRo commented on), but I don't think Wario is.

wait where did zero comment on them

 

[The_Bookworm]

wait where did zero comment on them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmGJGF2jhA8
At around 4:44.

I thought the "4-jumps" glitch was already in Smash 4. It's just that Witch Twist (either 1st or 2nd one) cancels the double-jump and gives it back if it is done within a few (maybe 2/3, don't recall exactly) frames after the jump. I'm pretty sure I've already seen Mistake use that in Smash 4 at some point in a tournament. Usually, jumping before the first Witch Twist is almost pointless though.

Unless in Smash 4 only the second witch twist can cancel the jump and I'm wrong. Either way, triple or quadruple jump doesn't matter. It should just be removed altogether, but I'm fine with simply nerfing the knockback angle on Witch Twist (which they obviously did) to make it less reliable to combo into.

I don't think the 4th jump is in SSB4.

 

[MERPIS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmGJGF2jhA8
At around 4:44.

I don't think the 4th jump is in SSB4.

top 10 here we come

 

[Emblem Lord]

Praying no Japanese use Ryu. I need him to slip under the radar while Bayo gets nerfed to oblivion.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Praying no Japanese use Ryu. I need him to slip under the radar while Bayo gets nerfed to oblivion.

Trust me, Ryu nerfs is going to happen whether it is from full release or at patches. XD

Also, considering the nerfs Bayo already has, I wouldn't be surprised if the nerfs/bug fixes given to Bayo at full release will make her underpowered in relative to the cast.

 

[ぱみゅ]

When I look at Leo vs Plup, I saw that Bayonetta actually has 4 jumps in total. 1 Normal Jump and 3 Double Jumps. You can see the circle, meaning that she double jumps.

ZeRo clip this, here is his analysis...

This is actually pretty busted..

Just so you know.... that is how Witch Twist works in Smash 4.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Just so you know.... that is how Witch Twist works in Smash 4.

Really? I never remember anyone using four jumps with Bayo. It was always three, wasn't it?

 

[Ordeaux26]

Really? I never remember anyone using four jumps with Bayo. It was always three, wasn't it?

why does it matter this is the demo it will be fixed in the final version

 

[Galaxeon]

Really? I never remember anyone using four jumps with Bayo. It was always three, wasn't it?

https://youtu.be/XnuBtqnkZ4U?t=194

Took a random set with Mistake and first instance it can be seen is at the beginning of game 2. From the ledge, Mistake uses three "double-jumps", two of which are cancelled by a witch twist. So yes, it has always been a thing, who knows if it'll stay in the final version though (probably).

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Bayo having four jumps makes her recovery/air game even better.

 

[Y2Kay]

Sup everyone, how y'all doin'?

From the trailers I have seen, Greninja has a new down tilt and dash attack. I don't really get why, as these were both incredibly important parts of his current toolset. Moves like forward tilt and jab would seem like better candidates.


As for the system changes. I think it really suits him. It seems like the game is focused around enabling offense through better mobility options and Greninja is already amazing at that. I'd watch him carefully if I were you.

 

[MERPIS]

Sup everyone, how y'all doin'?

From the trailers I have seen, Greninja has a new down tilt and dash attack. I don't really get why, as these were both incredibly important parts of his current toolset. Moves like forward tilt and jab would seem like better candidates.


As for the system changes. I think it really suits him. It seems like the game is focused around enabling offense through better mobility options and Greninja is already amazing at that. I'd watch him carefully if I were you.

They aren't new they're just altered animations