Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[EMT~]

A few updates for the more AT-minded of us:

-From what I've heard, it seems that wavedashing is "technically" back in the game, but it's not very good. Zer0 described it as "[adding wavedash] half-way in" (https://youtu.be/oL2wQv8CGTo), and Mew2King says that it's "not done correctly" and that it "sucks" (https://youtu.be/ZRWxcEsJP_k) as currently implemented. I'm sure in part that it's less spammable than in Melee because of the new dodge decay mechanics applying to airdodges as well.
-Wavelanding actually is back confirmed and legit, but it's nerfed from Melee. You can't use waveland to slide off platforms, and it has the same dodge decay issue as mentioned above.
-There is no momentum conservation from ground to air upon jumping.
-Dash dancing is back, confirmed. And it's apparently actually really good on certain characters (i.e., Inkling). I'm guessing Sm4sh's prominent dash mobility options like dash-to-shield, extended dash dancing, and foxtrotting, are all back, too.
-Perfect pivot, from what I've heard, is apparently not back. Same goes for L-Canceling.
-On a character-specific note, shellshifting ATs are not back for Squirtle, due to how they changed his turnaround animation.
-It seems that moves send you flying really fast, and then you slow down quickly. A guy in another thread described it as higher air friction. My guess is that this will make teching more difficult considering you'll most likely be moving faster at points you have to tech.

So far, it seems to be in between Sm4sh and Melee, in the same way Sm4sh was in between Brawl and Melee.

 

[Das Koopa]

okay so, we're aware of 80+ stages in Ultimate. I find this to be a pretty underdiscussed topic in relation to the new title, so I should point out some stuff

1: there are a LOT of tourney-friendly stages
2: Hazards are toggalable, but we don't know what that covers

The following exist -

-Smashville
-Town & City
-Yoshi's Story
-Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
-Battlefield
-Final Destination
-Dreamland 64

All relatively neutral.

Depending on hazard toggles, these are also open, if they don't transform, as we don't know if it's just hazards or stage freezing in general, since Orpheon's is mundane yet was disabled;

-Frigate Orpheon
-Lylat Cruise (no tilt)
-Pokemon Stadium (Frozen, easily the most neutral stage possible)
-Warioware
-Kalos Pokemon League
-Dr. Wily's Castle
-Unova Pokemon League

There are a few unorthodox stage layouts that would be interesting minus hazards/transformations, but may be too weird to be legal-

-Find Mii
-Castle Siege
-Norfair
-Jungle Japes
-Magicant
-Arena Ferox

Also, Midgar exists, but it's a Battlefield Clone so lol

All the stages I listed exist in Ultimate, though we're unsure about the Stadium variants

Stage legality will be an extreme hotly contested subject. There are more neutral stages than there are legal stages in Smash 4, for example, and we do not have the entire stagelist (which could add Pyrosphere, a barren stage that might be legal, or Fountain of Dreams, a neutral tri-plat) meaning that we can very easily disperse of trashy stages like Duck Hunt and Halberd permanently and bring more into the fold via stage hazard toggling.

We're looking at 15-20 competitively viable stages by Smash 4/Brawl standards. It's effectively a PM stagelist.

 

[TDK]

The dev on the treehouse stream right now seemed to confirm that the slowdown on perfect-shielding scales with the move:

"If you perfect shield an A move (jab), you'll only have enough time to punish with another A move (jab)"

So it looks like it depends on the move, like how Witch Time should work. It's effectively another counter.

Also, Link's bombs no longer detonate on contact. That's a huge nerf. Hopefully Remote Bomb setups are just that good to make up for it.

 

[Aaron1997]

The_Bookworm https://twitter.com/Sinji93/status/1006951375421493250

Only Pac can hit the Water.

Also here's some more buff's

1. Bell now stun's when Z-dropped

2. Changes to his Normal's https://prnt.sc/juowck

3. Fruit's except Galaxain and Key can Clank with Water https://twitter.com/Sinji93/status/1006969628801855489

4. They can even be re-caught https://prnt.sc/juowd8

5. Pac is faster and might have more hydrant health https://prnt.sc/jup97m

6. Trying to find out how "Green" trampoline actually work's since there's some confusion with that .

7. There's actually a nerf. Only the opponent can hit Trampoline like Ike does here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPzo-TuH0C0&feature=youtu.be&t=11s

TBH the Trampoline change really doesn't do anything. Most character's would rather just ignore/Jump over Up-B. It's just there socan play the game.

There will almost never be a situation where hitting Up-B would be better then stealing like you did in smash 4.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The_Bookworm https://twitter.com/Sinji93/status/1006951375421493250

Only Pac can hit the Water.

Also here's some more buff's

1. Bell now stun's when Z-dropped

2. Changes to his Normal's https://prnt.sc/juowck

3. Fruit's except Galaxain and Key can Clank with Water https://twitter.com/Sinji93/status/1006969628801855489

4. They can even be re-caught https://prnt.sc/juowd8

5. Pac is faster and might have more hydrant health https://prnt.sc/jup97m

6. Trying to find out how "Green" trampoline actually work's since there's some confusion with that .

7. There's actually a nerf. Only the opponent can hit Trampoline like Ike does here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPzo-TuH0C0&feature=youtu.be&t=11s

TBH the Trampoline change really doesn't do anything. Most character's would rather just ignore/Jamp over Up-B. It's just there socan play the game.

There will almost never be a situation where hitting Up-B would be better then stealing like you did in smash 4.

The buffs are strong with this one.

No, seriously. We may see Sinji take top 16 spots in major tournaments with this many buffs. XD

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

The_Bookworm https://twitter.com/Sinji93/status/1006951375421493250

Only Pac can hit the Water.

Also here's some more buff's

1. Bell now stun's when Z-dropped

2. Changes to his Normal's https://prnt.sc/juowck

3. Fruit's except Galaxain and Key can Clank with Water https://twitter.com/Sinji93/status/1006969628801855489

4. They can even be re-caught https://prnt.sc/juowd8

5. Pac is faster and might have more hydrant health https://prnt.sc/jup97m

6. Trying to find out how "Green" trampoline actually work's since there's some confusion with that .

7. There's actually a nerf. Only the opponent can hit Trampoline like Ike does here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPzo-TuH0C0&feature=youtu.be&t=11s

TBH the Trampoline change really doesn't do anything. Most character's would rather just ignore/Jamp over Up-B. It's just there socan play the game.

There will almost never be a situation where hitting Up-B would be better then stealing like you did in smash 4.

Pac's buffs may make him more viable in ultimate.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Fix your eyesight

You better not believe there is nobody watching you guys behaving.
Whether or not the move was changed it might be meaningless considering the game is still in development and everything you see can still be changed.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

okay so, we're aware of 80+ stages in Ultimate. I find this to be a pretty underdiscussed topic in relation to the new title, so I should point out some stuff

1: there are a LOT of tourney-friendly stages
2: Hazards are toggalable, but we don't know what that covers

The following exist -

-Smashville
-Town & City
-Yoshi's Story
-Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
-Battlefield
-Final Destination
-Dreamland 64

All relatively neutral.

Depending on hazard toggles, these are also open, if they don't transform, as we don't know if it's just hazards or stage freezing in general, since Orpheon's is mundane yet was disabled;

-Frigate Orpheon
-Lylat Cruise (no tilt)
-Pokemon Stadium (Frozen, easily the most neutral stage possible)
-Warioware
-Kalos Pokemon League
-Dr. Wily's Castle
-Unova Pokemon League

There are a few unorthodox stage layouts that would be interesting minus hazards/transformations, but may be too weird to be legal-

-Find Mii
-Castle Siege
-Norfair
-Jungle Japes
-Magicant
-Arena Ferox

Also, Midgar exists, but it's a Battlefield Clone so lol

All the stages I listed exist in Ultimate, though we're unsure about the Stadium variants

Stage legality will be an extreme hotly contested subject. There are more neutral stages than there are legal stages in Smash 4, for example, and we do not have the entire stagelist (which could add Pyrosphere, a barren stage that might be legal, or Fountain of Dreams, a neutral tri-plat) meaning that we can very easily disperse of trashy stages like Duck Hunt and Halberd permanently and bring more into the fold via stage hazard toggling.

We're looking at 15-20 competitively viable stages by Smash 4/Brawl standards. It's effectively a PM stagelist.

I want to touch on this as well, we've never had it (not counting PM) a smash game where we have a problem of having too many stages to pick from. Usually we are stage deprived (S4 only having 5 legal stages and one of them being quite controversial) will be interesting to see how the community grades the competitiveness of stages in Ultimate because we have so many options we can remove even the slightest of "janky" stages from the stage list and not lose out on options unlike now (Where Lylat is legally largely because we'd have four stages only if it wasn't which is a pitiful selection). We can also actually return to a starter stage and counterpick system rather than everything be a starter because again, more options.


And this isn't even counting stages that are likely to be created in Smash Ultimate that could be legal.

 

[MERPIS]

You better not believe there is nobody watching you guys behaving.
Whether or not the move was changed it might be meaningless considering the game is still in development and everything you see can still be changed.

As if that ever stopped us before

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I consider this an improvement, giving the fighters more ground to air options (alongside the overall decrease to landing lag), speeding up the game. This is going to be a big buff to Robin, who is currently considered below average in the current SSB4 metagame.


Wait, what do you mean you can "tech" footstooling? You can tech the moment the character hops on you?


YYYEEEESSSS!!! This is something I wanted in the game ever since playing SSF2.


UPDATE: The school year is over for me. Going to be establishing a thread about the new additions to SSBU and what we have so far! It will take a long time to finish, but I have plenty.

10 more days until Hyrule Saga!

You tech footstools when you fall to the stage, akin to teching from getting hit. There is a twitter gif of it on discord but I do not feel like getting it.

 

[Aaron1997]

Old vs New grab. Make sure you have it on lower speed settings

 

[Minordeth]

I spent an inordinate amount of time hearing, watching, and reading impressions and analysis yesterday, because my work schedule is awesome. Anyway, I’ll summarize it real quick, since there will always be contradictory info.

The Good: ​

- Basically every top player that played it said it felt like a new game. ESAM likened it to the difference between Brawl and Smash 4, plus “a little more.” In other words, it’s an actual sequel to Smash 4.

- jump squats are either completely gone, or heavily reduced. Air speed and air acceleration seem quite a bit faster, which makes up for no conservation of momentum.

- Run speed increased seemingly across the board. Heavy character viability just went up, essentially.

- Aerial landing lag is essentially “auto L-cancel” levels.

- Rolling and dodging are drastically changed, and the idea seems to be to use them strategically, and when needed, rather than for mobility/spamming. The increase to character mobility goes hand in hand with the increased roll lag.

- Directional air dodging is a fantastic addition, as is limiting air dodges to 1, until hit.

- Too many character specific changes.

- Attacks do more damage, although precise percent values will change.

- HUD icons for QOL improvements

- stage hazard toggle combined with stage list is huuuuuge. Legal Pokemon Stadium? Yes, yes please.

- Perfect shielding: now with parrying!

The Bad​

- Hitstun is decreased leading to either fewer combos, or more precise combos

- knock back acceleration and velocity are extremely fast, which further limits combo potential

- Critical Hits may allow for last ditch DI corrections

- No grounded shield cross ups. Sort of.

The We Don’t Know, Yet​

- Wavelanding is a thing, but we are unsure how useful it is, given airdodge lag. Wavelanding horizontally onto a platform seems legit, but you can’t ledge cancel.

- wave dashing isn’t functional, but it may not matter because

- being able to dash cancel, or rather, do anything out of dash would be superior. However, it remains to be confirmed if you can’t act out of your initial dash, or act only once the run animation starts. If you can’t act out of initial dash, then we are sort of halfway to auto-wavedashing.

- We don’t know what the stage hazard toggle functionally does to every stage yet.

- Rage exists, but given the mess of contradictory info, the safest conclusion is that it is borderline negligible. I’ve seen a few people suggest that the smoke simply identifies a character who is at risk for critical hits/death and that we are misreading the indicator. Meh.

The Conclusion
​

- SSBU is being developed with a blatantly offense oriented focus, ideally with a more thoughtful defensive play.

- I’d expect substantial changes from now till release.

- It’s not finished.

- Take gameplay videos with a massive grain of salt. Such substantial changes, especially to defensive mechanics, aren’t even close to being fully utilized yet.

- Ridley.

 

[J0eyboi]

View attachment 148239

Old vs New grab. Make sure you have it on lower speed settings

That's a still image

- jump squats are either completely gone, or heavily reduced. Air speed and air acceleration seem quite a bit faster, which makes up for no conservation of momentum.

Jumpsquat definitely still exists. It does seem shorter and less varied across the cast, though.

 

[TDK]

I've heard reports that everyone's jumpsquat is frame 3, but take from that what you will.

 

[Aaron1997]

https://twitter.com/SeagullSSB/status/1007073869730123777

Seagull said that not being able run past shields is a Glitch. Idk where he got this from

 

[Minordeth]

That's a still image



Jumpsquat definitely still exists. It does seem shorter and less varied across the cast, though.

I literally just counted it and saw it from another user. Shoulda checked. Looks like 3.

I've heard reports that everyone's jumpsquat is frame 3, but take from that what you will.

I haven’t checked every character in the demo, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was 3.

Which goes a long way to explaining why say, Ganondorf, is universally seen as a “pretty good.” Well, yeah, if Smash 4 Dorf had a 3 frame jump squat and ran as fast as Mario, he’d be “pretty good,” too.

https://twitter.com/SeagullSSB/status/1007073869730123777

Seagull said that not being able run past shields is a Glitch. Idk where he got this from

Interesting. Apparently, the damage in the 1v1 part of the Invitational was glitched and was the FFA damage value set, rather than the 1v1 damage value set. Ruben, of Ruben’s calculator, pegged the actual damage percent for 1v1 at 1.2 times higher than FFA/2v2.

On a side note: Max Ketchum confirmed that not only can you apparently dash cancel into imagination from initial dash(?) but can absolutely cancel your skid/turn around animation into whatever. So those running pivot ftilts can be running turn around Usmashes, Dsmashes, etc.

 

[Emblem Lord]

My current thoughts about this game relate only to my main Ryu.

If Ryu stays in his current form he may end up ruining the game for several characters.

He can cancel his aerials into specials. Hadouken has less recovery time. Being able to run or dash into tilts means he now has a consistent way to access his win condition. Of course there is only so much we know so far, but just based on what little we know Ryu is looking monstrous.

He always faces his opponent in 1v1. BUT...he can still run backwards. Since he can run he can still RAR bair. And since he always faces his opponent, now walking back and forth actually means something. You cannot just roll past Ryu. He will just auto correct turn around and hurt you. Zone breaking into a conversion is a huge deal now. Not just for him. I imagine that Sheik, Diddy and Fox will benefit hugely from this system change. But they already had access to their win conditions. Ryu did not, so this is a much bigger deal for him.

Hate to admit this, but I am glad Rosaluma exists. She will keep Ryu in check.

I have also been reading that Shoryuken knockback is reduced, which is a good way to balance out that Ryu can just run in and start mashing buttons all over your face.

 

[ARISTOS]

I spent an inordinate amount of time hearing, watching, and reading impressions and analysis yesterday, because my work schedule is awesome. Anyway, I’ll summarize it real quick, since there will always be contradictory info.

The Good: ​

- Basically every top player that played it said it felt like a new game. ESAM likened it to the difference between Brawl and Smash 4, plus “a little more.” In other words, it’s an actual sequel to Smash 4.

- jump squats are either completely gone, or heavily reduced. Air speed and air acceleration seem quite a bit faster, which makes up for no conservation of momentum.

- Run speed increased seemingly across the board. Heavy character viability just went up, essentially.

- Aerial landing lag is essentially “auto L-cancel” levels.

- Rolling and dodging are drastically changed, and the idea seems to be to use them strategically, and when needed, rather than for mobility/spamming. The increase to character mobility goes hand in hand with the increased roll lag.

- Directional air dodging is a fantastic addition, as is limiting air dodges to 1, until hit.

- Too many character specific changes.

- Attacks do more damage, although precise percent values will change.

- HUD icons for QOL improvements

- stage hazard toggle combined with stage list is huuuuuge. Legal Pokemon Stadium? Yes, yes please.

- Perfect shielding: now with parrying!

The Bad​

- Hitstun is decreased leading to either fewer combos, or more precise combos

- knock back acceleration and velocity are extremely fast, which further limits combo potential

- Critical Hits may allow for last ditch DI corrections

- No grounded shield cross ups. Sort of.

The We Don’t Know, Yet​

- Wavelanding is a thing, but we are unsure how useful it is, given airdodge lag. Wavelanding horizontally onto a platform seems legit, but you can’t ledge cancel.

- wave dashing isn’t functional, but it may not matter because

- being able to dash cancel, or rather, do anything out of dash would be superior. However, it remains to be confirmed if you can’t act out of your initial dash, or act only once the run animation starts. If you can’t act out of initial dash, then we are sort of halfway to auto-wavedashing.

- We don’t know what the stage hazard toggle functionally does to every stage yet.

- Rage exists, but given the mess of contradictory info, the safest conclusion is that it is borderline negligible. I’ve seen a few people suggest that the smoke simply identifies a character who is at risk for critical hits/death and that we are misreading the indicator. Meh.

The Conclusion
​

- SSBU is being developed with a blatantly offense oriented focus, ideally with a more thoughtful defensive play.

- I’d expect substantial changes from now till release.

- It’s not finished.

- Take gameplay videos with a massive grain of salt. Such substantial changes, especially to defensive mechanics, aren’t even close to being fully utilized yet.

- Ridley.

Not only an offensive focus, with everything pretty much reducing the commitment of attacking options/increasing defensive commitment, but a focus on e-Sports in general. The pre-match screen, the stock icons flaring every stock, the Critical Finish- those are all e-Sport flavor changes.

The game is blatantly being built with tournament play in mind.

okay so, we're aware of 80+ stages in Ultimate. I find this to be a pretty underdiscussed topic in relation to the new title, so I should point out some stuff

1: there are a LOT of tourney-friendly stages
2: Hazards are toggalable, but we don't know what that covers

The following exist -

-Smashville
-Town & City
-Yoshi's Story
-Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
-Battlefield
-Final Destination
-Dreamland 64

All relatively neutral.

Depending on hazard toggles, these are also open, if they don't transform, as we don't know if it's just hazards or stage freezing in general, since Orpheon's is mundane yet was disabled;

-Frigate Orpheon
-Lylat Cruise (no tilt)
-Pokemon Stadium (Frozen, easily the most neutral stage possible)
-Warioware
-Kalos Pokemon League
-Dr. Wily's Castle
-Unova Pokemon League

There are a few unorthodox stage layouts that would be interesting minus hazards/transformations, but may be too weird to be legal-

-Find Mii
-Castle Siege
-Norfair
-Jungle Japes
-Magicant
-Arena Ferox

Also, Midgar exists, but it's a Battlefield Clone so lol

All the stages I listed exist in Ultimate, though we're unsure about the Stadium variants

Stage legality will be an extreme hotly contested subject. There are more neutral stages than there are legal stages in Smash 4, for example, and we do not have the entire stagelist (which could add Pyrosphere, a barren stage that might be legal, or Fountain of Dreams, a neutral tri-plat) meaning that we can very easily disperse of trashy stages like Duck Hunt and Halberd permanently and bring more into the fold via stage hazard toggling.

We're looking at 15-20 competitively viable stages by Smash 4/Brawl standards. It's effectively a PM stagelist.

I'd imagine that once we know which stages are neutral we'll pick the favorites of the lot.

For example, if Dreamland 64 remains similar to Battlefield I doubt it would rejoin the stagelist even if there is technically nothing wrong with it.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Continuing to watch the presentation, I noticed how badly they nerfed Witch Time. XD

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

I feel like every stage can be tournament viable due to them all having alpha forms.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I feel like every stage can be tournament viable due to them all having alpha forms.

They already were due to Omega, I still think we'll likely see some limits on omega/alpha though. Still, with hazard switch we'll have plenty of legal stages to choose from, more than ever in an official Smash game.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

PGR v5 will end after CEO 2018

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[ぱみゅ]

PGR v5 will end after CEO 2018

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is... interesting... to say the least.
EVO, Smash Factor and Smash Con (among others) all are after that and that means an immediate, hectic start for PGRv6.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is... interesting... to say the least.
EVO, Smash Factor and Smash Con (among others) all are after that and that means an immediate, hectic start for PGRv6.

Assuming that v6 is going to happen and it is just not an extended break until Smash Ultimate's release.

Also, they say that there will be a special announcement once v5 concludes.

 

[Nah]

I feel like every stage can be tournament viable due to them all having alpha forms.

Gaining alpha stages is more of a deal for online play/For Glory than it is for tournament play imo. Since alpha stages are basically making stages into a Battlefield form, there's little reason to include what is basically the same stage twice (or thrice) in tournament legal stage lists alongside Battlefield and/or DL64. Especially when we're going to have a massive stage list (with hazard toggling!) as is, so there's likely to be plenty of legal stages for us to use without factoring in alphas at all.

Having alpha and omega versions of every stage means that on For Glory you're no longer restricted to playing on basically FD only, which is a big deal for that.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

I don't know if this was even a concern for anyone, but I asked Void when he streamed yesterday if there was any noticeable controller latency, and he said no. If anyone wants me to fish it out of the stream and clip it I will. I assume that means 5mash will have the same input delay as sm4sh (which is 6 i believe? can't remember).

 

[Heracr055]

Gaining alpha stages is more of a deal for online play/For Glory than it is for tournament play imo. Since alpha stages are basically making stages into a Battlefield form, there's little reason to include what is basically the same stage twice (or thrice) in tournament legal stage lists alongside Battlefield and/or DL64. Especially when we're going to have a massive stage list (with hazard toggling!) as is, so there's likely to be plenty of legal stages for us to use without factoring in alphas at all.

Having alpha and omega versions of every stage means that on For Glory you're no longer restricted to playing on basically FD only, which is a big deal for that.

Haha get ****ed Little Mac FG players wrt platforms
To be relevant I am excited for the hazard toggles. Legal Wily Castle here we come!
Lastly...with the universal mechanic changes and specific character changes, I feel Ryu will be a clear cut top tier

 

[MarioManTAW]

Another thing about the E3/trailer build, I don't think I've heard any voice acting aside from the announcer (Xander Mobus is returning). Could this mean we're getting all-new voice acting for all the characters?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Lastly...with the universal mechanic changes and specific character changes, I feel Ryu will be a clear cut top tier

I feel like Ryu may potentially be the best character of the demo, with other contenders from what I can tell being Mario, Snake, or Sonic.

Bayo is probably at the lower end of top tier tbh.

Another thing about the E3/trailer build, I don't think I've heard any voice acting aside from the announcer (Xander Mobus is returning). Could this mean we're getting all-new voice acting for all the characters?

Most voice clips are returning to characters from what I can tell. Some exceptions include Ike's, Zelda's, (maybe) Link's, (maybe) Pkmn Trainer's, and Marth's. Many other characters are indeed getting new voice clips, but overall brings recycled voice clips from previous installments.

 

[Minordeth]

I wouldn’t go hard on speculating who is gonna be top tier or even who was the best character of the demo.

Like, zero players right now have any idea how to use the new perfect shield mechanics. Zero of them know how to actually play the game. The changes to defense may have nerfed defensive autopilot, but we basically got more skill based mechanics in return.

Ryu doing running utilt sounds ridiculous, tho.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sonic is going to be the whiff punish king.

 

[Minordeth]

Sonic barely needs Spin Dash if he can attack out of his run. Like, who cares if he lost shield cancel on it?

Also, Rosa gets a massive nerf by virtue of the roll nerfs.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Watching more of the VODs, I might post some more things I've noticed, but another one that seems to have slipped under the radar: Time Limits are no longer fixed to whole-minute intervals. There was a match set to 2:30 time limit, so I'm not sure how precise it can be, but it's no longer restricted to minutes.

 

[|RK|]

Sonic barely needs Spin Dash if he can attack out of his run. Like, who cares if he lost shield cancel on it?

Also, Rosa gets a massive nerf by virtue of the roll nerfs.

That and airdodge nerfs. Thinking of it from a Kirby perspective, camping being nerfed is a buff to him.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

I feel like Jr may be a bit weaker if characters are going to need to be able to do things out of dash as his dash is relatively poor.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I feel like Jr may be a bit weaker if characters are going to need to be able to do things out of dash as his dash is relatively poor.

How is it poor? It gives out acceptable amounts of speed, does it not?

 

[Minordeth]

That and airdodge nerfs. Thinking of it from a Kirby perspective, camping being nerfed is a buff to him.

Oh, oh yeah. Plus, the general speed increase. I’m not surprised that Kirby got a pretty good reception. Hbox is apparently thinking about going Kirby in Ultimate if Jiggs is a bust.

Perhaps not surprisingly, Nintemco seemed to have adjusted Sonic into less of a bait and punish and more of a general brawler/rushdown akin to Mario. Dabuz noted that current Sonic mains may not like the changes, but Sonic has better buttons to compensate for the nerf to spin dash.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

How is it poor? It gives out acceptable amounts of speed, does it not?

Its poor due to how long the animation is. Especially the short dash. Due to this, Jr has to rely on Kart Dash more often than not due to his mediocre grounded mobility.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Its poor due to how long the animation is. Especially the short dash. Due to this, Jr has to rely on Kart Dash more often than not due to his mediocre grounded mobility.

It might change in Ultimate..... But we can't tell yet until we get the full release, or when a demo version releases that has him.

 

[Nobie]

According to Nairo, Ryu actually auto corrects while attacking too, so if you try to get past his light up tilts by getting behind him, he'll actually just turn around automatically and continue.

I also got a couple of games in at Nintendo NY. Tried out Inklings, who were fun of course, as well as Mewtwo. Man, something about Mewtwo in Ultimate is absurd, at least in that build. I think Confusion -> Jab might be a true combo (my opponent wisely knew to instictively jump away after getting confused but couldn't seem to escape the jab follow-up). More importantly, Mewtwo's aerials are absurd. Like back-air in Smash 4 feels "okay." Back-air in Ultimate feels like I can easily mess anyone up.

The only thing Mewtwo mains will have to get used to again is only having one air dodge. I could feel myself just pressing dodge to phase in and out, only to be vulnerable because I couldn't retaliate out of it in time.

Re: Sonic

I think the biggest deal with Sonic is that he can no longer spin cancel. Even though he seems better in many other areas, I think this is a big deal for both playing against him and for retaining viewership.