Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[|RK|]

I've said it before, but I believe that Nintendo isn't supporting Smash as an esport because we play it one way. Even for side events, we don't touch the ways they'd like to promote it.

The way Invitationals work give us an idea of what they would want, but.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

the seeding for shulks at switchfest is absolute trash btw. Tru4 and sriks not even in the top 40 is an absolute sham. Both are top 10 in australia with wins on every single aussie PR member.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I doubt MKLeo will use Shulk. The last time I saw him use it was in a doubles tourney.

 

[J0eyboi]

the seeding for shulks at switchfest is absolute trash btw.

I agree because of how many of them run into top players, Shieks, and Foxes early on, but Tru4 is seeded 33rd.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Smash 4 might still be alive for years after Smash switch's release. There may be players who don't like Smash switch and will still play smash 4, like melee players. Also, Smash 4's balance is pretty spot on compared to previous Smash titles.

that could be possible there are people who still play brawl and i agree on the balance part its not perfect but pretty good

Agreed, but I'm not really expecting anything on that front. Nintendo and Sakurai have treated Smash with an almost anti-competitive air as far back as I can remember, since at least Melee. Maybe they'll come to their senses someday, though.

They actually might because Nintendo has been embracing the competitive scene a lot recently and Sakurai has changed his mind on this stuff

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I agree because of how many of them run into top players, Shieks, and Foxes early on, but Tru4 is seeded 33rd.

. According to official seeding, he is seeded 46th and Sriks seeded 63rd, which is way too low. Tru4 playint k9 in round 2 of pools (who is the best player in the world that knows the shulk matchup) doesnt help. Hopefully shulks can make a splash even without Kome’s unfortunate absence due to work.

 

[Rizen]

Lol, Nintendo's idea of an E sport is Mario Party with motion controls. Good luck.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Guys, don't be delusional.

Spoiler

>Melee almost died after Brawl came out.
>Many people moved to Brawl, and many more started with Brawl and never turned into the Melee scene, either by choice as they liked Brawl more, or because Melee community REPELLED them for even playing Brawl. Yes, it was a very toxic scene back then.
>After the Melee documentary, people started moving back into Melee.
>Brawl had few core issues that could've been solved with some key changes, and some people pushed for them, but the ultimate decision was against said changes. And so the scene slowly faded.
>Smash 4 came out.
>Many people immediately picked it up.
>A huge majority of them never touched Brawl but still complain about it "duuuh, its brol so is bad imma rite guise?".
>A lot haven't ever touched Melee either.
>Nintendo Switch is a FAR more successful console than Wii U was, even before Smash was announced.
>A huge majority of Switch owners probably never played Smash 4 and will start with Smash Switch
>They probably won't play Smash 4 because it's far easier for them to just keep playing Switch.
>Even if Smash Switch is bad, Smash Switch players will probably stick
>If the game really doesn't do well, the Big N will almost certainly do something about it, either start dropping money into tournaments, or active patches to core mechanics to make it, if not better than S4, at least entertaining and worth the effort.

So... yeah, It's extremely unlikely for Smash 4 to prevail for long after Smash Switch's release.

 

[blackghost]

smash 4 is unique from brawl. smash 4 could always try running its custom moves in tournament post switch launch to keep some viewers. (i'd watch that for sure) and i think there are enough people that truly love the game that will support it.
game wont end unless smash switch embraces new competitive mechanics that render this game obsolete. even if that (unlikely) scenario were to happen i think the game would survive to a larger degree than brawl did.

 

[Rran]

I don't think Smash 4 will have much of a presence in the tourney scene primarily due to Smash Switch building off its code/ mechanics/ fundamentals (IMO, of course--if "Smatch" indeed turns out to be its own thing entirely and not merely a souped-up extension of its predecessor, ala Splatoon 2, then I'll have to reconsider my position).

Ehhh... just so hard to tell one way or the other without knowing definitively what's in store with the next installment

 

[Ordeaux26]

Switchfest is starting check out the bracket here

https://smash.gg/tournament/switchfest-1/events/smash-wii-u-singles/overview

 

[J0eyboi]

On the topic of Switchfest and Shulk, there are 3 different double Shulk teams at Switchfest: Tru4/Sriks, M/Scarhi, and Paradigm/Erico. So that's cool.

Edit: Aaaand they're already all in losers.
Speaking of trash seeding, why are Paradigm and Erico projected to go further than M and Scarhi? (They didn't, by the way. They went 0/2)

 

[The_Bookworm]

On the topic of Switchfest and Shulk, there are 3 different double Shulk teams at Switchfest: Tru4/Sriks, M/Scarhi, and Paradigm/Erico. So that's cool.

And the two salt legends K9 and Kiraflax is teamed up too. XD

 

[Thinkaman]

It is very, very difficult to imagine Smash 5 being enough of a flop that Smash 4 remains dominant.

Melee is also not instructive as an example; Melee has followed a popularity trajectory unlike any other game, a roller coaster effected by factors enumerated here + others.

The worst case is much more like MvC3 -> Infinite, except that is still not really a possibility due to the differences in their presentation. (Sakurai takes a broader "give them a big sandbox and let them play in whatever corner they want" approach that is precisely resistant to that sort of failure.)

The money bomb of newfound casual interest in the new title (on a vastly more popular and accessible platform) will smother the financial realities of the previous game's esport scene.

 

[J0eyboi]

The worst case is much more like MvC3 -> Infinite, except that is still not really a possibility due to the differences in their presentation. (Sakurai takes a broader "give them a big sandbox and let them play in whatever corner they want" approach that is precisely resistant to that sort of failure.)

It also isn't really a possibility because last I checked, ArcSys isn't planning on making a platform fighter any time soon.

Anyway, Singles just started.

 

[MercuryPenny]

It is very, very difficult to imagine Smash 5 being enough of a flop that Smash 4 remains dominant.

i don't think anyone has argued smash 4 will remain dominant, rather that it won't have a fall from grace comparable to brawl

 

[Thinkaman]

Controversial assertion of day:

If we are going to accept audience viewership as a factor in tourney policy decisions, the very first thing that we have do is require players to use a name tag that is their name.

No inside jokes, no funny symbols, no random in-group signalling.

Random Joe who is curious about competitive smash needs to be able to tune into a stream and instantly follow along, even if he has never heard of the players. Even if he has never heard of the characters. (Who the hell is Korren?) And even if there are 3 Clouds on-screen.

Invisibility isn't a factor; this isn't Melee. Character limit isn't a problem either; this isn't Melee and abbreviation is a kindergarden-level problem.

There is no professional sport, amateur sport, Olympic sport, FPS, or MOBA I can think of where this isn't assumed as super obvious.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Switchfest: Top 32 (This post will be repeatedly updated as the events of the tournament goes on.)

Winners:
1: Charliedaking vs Nairo
2: VoiD vs Light
3:
4: Samsora vs Shuton
5: Zenyou vs MKLeo
6:
7: Tweek vs Raito
8: komorikiri vs VaLoR


Losers:
1: Sriks vs Xzax
2: PiXL vs (TBD)
3: S2H vs (TBD)
4: falln vs Aarvark
5: Virum vs Eon
6: Lui$ vs (TBD)
7:
8: Myran vs TLTC


Early Upsets:
VaLoR vs falln 2-1
Sriks vs M 2-1

 

[Heracr055]

Controversial assertion of day:

If we are going to accept audience viewership as a factor in tourney policy decisions, the very first thing that we have do is require players to use a name tag that is their name.

No inside jokes, no funny symbols, no random in-group signalling.

Random Joe who is curious about competitive smash needs to be able to tune into a stream and instantly follow along, even if he has never heard of the players. Even if he has never heard of the characters. (Who the hell is Korren?) And even if there are 3 Clouds on-screen.

Invisibility isn't a factor; this isn't Melee. Character limit isn't a problem either; this isn't Melee and abbreviation is a kindergarden-level problem.

There is no professional sport, amateur sport, Olympic sport, FPS, or MOBA I can think of where this isn't assumed as super obvious.

This is just wrong, and not just with Smash. You need to give Average Joe more credit. They see 2 players. One is playing a slender brunette with glasses, and the player's name is Salem. The other plays a monkey sporting a hat, and the player's name is Zer0. They can definitely follow along with what's happening on screen. That is all they need to know. And as I stated earlier, this applies outside of Smash. Just turn on any random sport and you can probably pick up what's going on real quick. The name isn't important. What's happening right in front of you is. Anominity has nothing to do with it.

 

[EMT~]

For Sma5h, I'm just going to echo what others here have said and say that Smash 4 probably won't stay especially popular once Sma5h comes out. Especially if Sma5h is pretty similar to Smash 4, because why not play the newer installment in that case? And, even if people don't like certain differences from Smash 4 initially, it won't kill the game entirely as the community will get used to (if still dislike) the differences eventually.

Unless Sma5h is just THAT bad, which I don't really see happening.

They actually might because Nintendo has been embracing the competitive scene a lot recently and Sakurai has changed his mind on this stuff

Has he? Maybe his views have gotten less negative over time, but I don't think he has straight-up changed his mind on the issue. The last thing I was able to find on Sakurai and competitive Smash was from mid-2016, where he basically said that people interested in the competitive aspects of Smash would be more interested in "regular" fighting games (source: http://nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-famitsu-column-summary-smash-bros-esport-thoughts-and-more/). Maybe I'm stuck in the past and missed something he said since then , though.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

On the topic of Switchfest and Shulk, there are 3 different double Shulk teams at Switchfest: Tru4/Sriks, M/Scarhi, and Paradigm/Erico. So that's cool.


Edit: Aaaand they're already all in losers.
Speaking of trash seeding, why are Paradigm and Erico projected to go further than M and Scarhi? (They didn't, by the way. They went 0/2)

Paradigm & Erico may be seeded higher due to them being the main source of information that people learn about Shulk due to their youtube channel and being the owners of the Shulk Discord. So to players who are not that familiar with Shulk, they may put a lot of stock into them.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Paradigm & Erico may be seeded higher due to them being the main source of information that people learn about Shulk due to their youtube channel and being the owners of the Shulk Discord. So to players who are not that familiar with Shulk, they may put a lot of stock into them.

The Shulk players are great, very knowledgeable about the potential of their character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The results for Switchfest doubles:

1st: MKLeo komorikiri
2nd: Cosmos Samsora
3rd: Nairo Tweek
4th: Larry Lurr Light
5th: VaLoR PiXL
5th: Abadango Kameme
7th: jaredisking1 SilentRain
7th: ven Z

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Captain L 3-0d BestNess with only Puff

OmegaLuL

... Puff is very obscure character, it must be MU inexperience, still props to Captain L.

Edit: It is from Flatiron 3
Still I am surpised and laughing at that battle lol

 

[The_Bookworm]

Captain L 3-0d BestNess with only Puff

OmegaLuL

... Puff is very obscure character, it must be MU inexperience, still props to Captain L.

What tournament? Both of them didn't enter Switchfest or GatorLAN.

 

[Iridium]

Captain L 3-0d BestNess with only Puff

OmegaLuL

... Puff is very obscure character, it must be MU inexperience, still props to Captain L.

I'm not sure about that. This is not the first time I've seen Captain L beat people with Puff, but against BestNess? Very strange to see.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

What tournament? Both of them didn't enter Switchfest or GatorLAN.

Flatiron 3. I think it is a C tier but idk

Edit: Its not, huh.

 

[Iridium]

On the topic of Switchfest and Shulk, there are 3 different double Shulk teams at Switchfest: Tru4/Sriks, M/Scarhi, and Paradigm/Erico. So that's cool.

Edit: Aaaand they're already all in losers.
Speaking of trash seeding, why are Paradigm and Erico projected to go further than M and Scarhi? (They didn't, by the way. They went 0/2)

Also, Sriks just made top 32 while M got 33rd in singles. The dream is alive in some way.

Edit: Oh wait, Sriks beat M 2-1 to make top 32. Well, that is unfortunate.

 

[WiFi]

Shulk isn't going to win the tournament. While Sriks is good, the other players in the Top 32 are much better. Unless he pulls some crazy upsets, Shulk probably won't make Top 8 in Switchfest.

 

[Iridium]

Shulk isn't going to win the tournament. While Sriks is good, the other players in the Top 32 are much better. Unless he pulls some crazy upsets, Shulk probably won't make Top 8 in Switchfest.

Unfortunately. Paradigm, Erico, M and Scarhi all out. Sriks, Tru4, Tremendo Dude and Nicko remain.

 

[WiFi]

Just curious, can anybody tell me what Shulk's worst matchups are?

 

[Iridium]

Just curious, can anybody tell me what Shulk's worst matchups are?

I would say Sheik due to her superior frame data, mobility and combo game. But Fox would be among the worse due to him having an easy time pressuring Shulk and juggling him in the air. Honestly, Shulk's landing options are not the best, so Fox and Sheik and characters who can abuse that easily.

 

[WiFi]

Oh, yeah, I play Sheik and Fox a lot. But does Shulk notably struggle against any other characters?

 

[J0eyboi]

I would say Sheik due to her superior frame data, mobility and combo game. But Fox would be among the worse due to him having an easy time pressuring Shulk and juggling him in the air. Honestly, Shulk's landing options are not the best, so Fox and Sheik and characters who can abuse that easily.

Against Shiek, it's less juggling and more stage control. Shiek has the mobility specs and frame data to just get up in Shulk's face, push him to the ledge, and completely deny him the space he needs to put his big-ass sword to use. Additionally, Shiek benefits a lot by being close to the ledge, as it gives her a ton more ways to kill and let's her set up edgeguards more easily, whereas Shulk gets much less, because his best kill options are vertical and he really can't edgeguard Shiek.

Oh, yeah, I play Sheik and Fox a lot. But does Shulk notably struggle against any other characters?

Not really.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Puff-Ness is not a bad MU for Puff. If you don't play passive and just react to Puff (BestNess is not the most passive Ness player out there) she can fairly consistently get Ness off stage and Puff arguably gimps Ness the best out of any character in this game. Everyone can gimp Ness of course but it actually means a lot in this matchup and helps puff not get steamrolled. I personally think it's a slight advantage for Ness but it could honestly be even. Playing passive and reacting to Puff is how you beat her which Ness can do and wall her out with his superior aerials but it's not a cure all since you still have to get sorta close to her to do so.

 

[Iridium]

VaLoR 2-1 falln to make top 32 winners. falln still made it out from losers though.

And Shuton 2-1 Aarvark to make top 32 in a set I could only describe as close to a certain degree.

And Raito 2-1 K9sbruce to make top 32 winners as well.

Tru4 is now out at 65th, so Nicko, Tremendo Dude and Sriks remain.

 

[|RK|]

Puff-Ness is not a bad MU for Puff. If you don't play passive and just react to Puff (BestNess is not the most passive Ness player out there) she can fairly consistently get Ness off stage and Puff arguably gimps Ness the best out of any character in this game. Everyone can gimp Ness of course but it actually means a lot in this matchup and helps puff not get steamrolled. I personally think it's a slight advantage for Ness but it could honestly be even. Playing passive and reacting to Puff is how you beat her which Ness can do and wall her out with his superior aerials but it's not a cure all since you still have to get sorta close to her to do so.

Remember that Hbox took FOW to game 3 lol. Was also a rest away from taking the set (because rage).

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Remember that Hbox took FOW to game 3 lol. Was also a rest away from taking the set (because rage).

Gave me a heart attack I remember that set everytime I play a Puff lmao. People get too complacent when it comes to low or bottom tier characters, they don't all get steamrolled by the better characters. And Hbox isn't even a serious Smash 4 player and this was before FOW's hiatus. Remember to practice all your MUs guys and gals.

 

[Iridium]

TLTC 2-0 Masonomace to make top 32 losers. Another Shulk falls early in pools.

 

[WiFi]

The Shulks are falling, one by one... As I predicted.