Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The_Bookworm]

Hes the best Lucas in the US and pretty much the world with a win on Nairo

Is that literally the only reason? One of the best players of a simple mid tier character, that has one single win over a top player (that happened almost a year ago to add on to that). How is that hype inducing?

 

[|RK|]

Is that literally the only reason? One of the best players of a simple mid tier character, that has one single win over a top player (that happened almost a year ago to add on to that). How is that hype inducing?

The character is rare and the player has shown the ability to compete with one of the best players in the world. Very simple formula, but it still interests people.

 

[Ordeaux26]

is an awesome character in my opinion and fun to watch and seeing mekos's gameplay is really cool

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Gods I'm late just posting to say I'm exclusively going into lurk mode. I've bought a switch, traded in my Wii U and smash waiting for the next one. This community has been fine but as of now I'm pretty much done with the smash for wii U/3DS community aside from reading these posts. I thank everyone including the mods for their inclusion and so on and so forth.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

is an awesome character in my opinion and fun to watch and seeing mekos's gameplay is really cool

Lucas also is a pretty hard character to use, Mekos on an entirely new level when it comes to Lucas mains.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm going to resume moderating this thread pretty heavily in the build up to Smash 5, where this place will be needed again. Consider this the only warning.

If no one has mentioned it yet, a Chicago weekly has decided to ban Tyroy, and by Tyroy I mean Bayonetta, and by Bayonetta I mean Tyroy. This is worth talking about because the idea that Smash 4 Bayonetta of all fight game characters could be banned shows that this will never stop, and there will always be a social inclination to identify and punish some random social pariah. The more competitive games you've played, the more painful and repetitive the pattern gets.

I'm not sure what the solution is. Grassroots always gets thrown around as a positive word, but it has a lot of dark sides, including hysterical populist nonsense. "Grassroots" political movements are spoken of fondly, but are also the ones that include anti-vaxxers, racial-supremacy groups, and nut-job anarchists. And well, we're currently a grassroots community, and this is our cross to bear.

The limiting agent for competitive Smash has always been Word Of God, aka official sanctioning. This honestly is the main Smash 5 news I've been waiting for--I honestly don't care what characters are in or whatever. (They could put in Kim Kardashian, Ren & Stimpy, and Madeline Albright and we'd all still pay $300 for it Day 1.) And I don't expect much from Nintendo, but even a drop of water in the desert could be huge. For Glory almost did more harm than good, but hey it was something.

I thought patches would help some of our social woes, and they probably did somewhat. (Populism needs stagnant water to brew, so stirring things up can fend it off.) We certainly didn't have any of this stuff happening while the game was actively being updated. If we assume that Smash 5 is even more service-based, that's most likely good news on this front. (Plus better for balance too, but it's obvious now that fine-grained balance is not actually related to game health in the slightest.)

Edit: Stupidly made it sound like I was talking about Ignition

 

[Frihetsanka]

If no one has mentioned it yet, Chicago's main weekly has decided to ban Tyroy, and by Tyroy I mean Bayonetta, and by Bayonetta I mean Tyroy. This is worth talking about because the idea that Smash 4 Bayonetta of all fight game characters could be banned shows that this will never stop, and there will always be a social inclination to identify and punish some random social pariah.

From what I've gathered there are more than one Bayonetta in that scene (four of them made top 6 once, it seems). It'll be interesting to see what the results of this will be, I suppose.

 

[MarioManTAW]

If no one has mentioned it yet, Chicago's main weekly has decided to ban Tyroy, and by Tyroy I mean Bayonetta, and by Bayonetta I mean Tyroy. This is worth talking about because the idea that Smash 4 Bayonetta of all fight game characters could be banned shows that this will never stop, and there will always be a social inclination to identify and punish some random social pariah. The more competitive games you've played, the more painful and repetitive the pattern gets.

Sounds interesting. Is there a source for this?

 

[Ordeaux26]

Chicago's main weekly has decided to ban Tyroy, and by Tyroy I mean Bayonetta, and by Bayonetta I mean Tyroy

I could not find anything about this

 

[Minordeth]

Context to @Thinkaman’s post:

My understanding:
The TO for The Raid, a Chicago weekly, banned Bayo. His reasoning was open to interpretation. Given that Tyroy has won every single Raid weekly, and some posters on reddit seemed to extrapolate on that point, implying that Tyroy’s dominance with Bayonetta was the issue.

Other posters alleged Bayo was killing the weekly, although our @Das Koopa countered that assumption.

The four Bayo’s in top 6 happened at a 17 person tournament.

Tyroy will no longer attend the Raid.

... on a side note:

Mistake had an AMA and answered quite a few MU questions. Of interest, he noted that Marth was a “hard” MU because he can essentially sit back and react to everything Bayo does.

 

[Ordeaux26]

seems kind of dumb to ban a just because one person is winning tournaments there should Europe ban just because mr.r is winning every tournament there

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I saw the ban news but I thought it was for a dying weekly not the main one (Igniton). That weekly gets like 20 people and most of the top eight is Bayonetta players.

I mean I'm okay for trying new things but I doubt it will matter much in the end of things. The way people are going on it doesn't seem like Smash 4 will be here for much longer and Bayonetta is definitely not the only thing wrong with this game.

On a positive note I believe Sakurai and his team are slowly changing their view point in competitive smash and competitiveness in general. I remember in an interview with Sakurai. He made Brawl with the mindset of giving new players a chance of betting experienced players because it's not fair to the newer player to be beaten by more experienced player all the time. (He mentioned how he used to visit SF2 arcade cabinets back in his youth and used to destroy newer players and lamenting that they were not having fun because the game was too hard and would turn them away if they just got stomped by experienced ones). Granted due to poor balance and mishaps experienced players still could stomp on newer Brawl players but you could see that's what they were going for (which they refined in Smash 4 a bit)

In recent interviews Sakurai essentially states he now believes that if our being beat by someone or something you should learn to deal with it or use it yourself, essentially the "git gud" argument. It's definitely shows with how newcomer DLC were designed (not counting veterans who came back as DLC who had existing movesets and attributes) that Sakurai seems to be shifting to making more competitive and stronger characters overall. All the newcomer DLC are top 12 characters with two of them being the best and arguably second best characters in this game. Ryu and Corrin are also really good characters and are deigned well for their gameplans.

I say this to say I feel like Smash 5 might feature better character strength overall. Instead of trying to make good but have some stupid flaws like a majority of characters in this game are. I feel we could see a shift towards good with adequate weaknesses to balance them out. That doesn't mean it will be a balanced game but at the very least the weaker characters won't be weaker simply because they don't function as designed.

 

[Heracr055]

Ryu has a slight advantage in the Corrin MU. As a sword character, Corrin can make getting into his desired space (close range) a bit difficult (though less than other swirdies), especially if he opts for an aerial approach. Her aerials are fairly powerful and have good range, but are single hit with the exception of dair. This makes it a bit easier for Ryu to escape juggle situations thanks to Focus Attack. Dragon Fang Shot is not much of a threat in this MU, with the potential exception of uncharged shot, charged bite at the edge of the stage. One thing that can be difficult to deal with is Dragon Lunge. A Ryu's ability to handle this move will usually determine who wins the match/set. It improves her mobility (making it harder to catch her) and puts Ryu in the air when successfully landed (it also has good KO potential at higher %s and can nab cheeky sweetspotted KOs offstage). Her Bair is another good spacing tool which can be hard to punish since it puts her out of Ryu's punish range. Lastly, Ryu is very susceptible to her dair gimping when he's recovering low offstage.
On the other hand, Corrin is easier to get in on compared to Marth, at least with a grounded approach (again, aerial approaches get swatted). Her lack of mobility is another great hinderance to her. Like Marth, Corrin has a great frame and weight for comboing, and has trouble getting Ryu off once he gets in. Most of her attacks are single hit (dair, pin & kick Dragon Lunge, the "charging" hitboxes of her smash attacks and jab being the exceptions), which allows him more freedom to abuse Focus and FADC. In addition, outside of Dragon Lunge and dair gimps, she doesn't have a great KO option or a a safe confirm on him. This prolongs his longevity and allows him more chances to do Ryu things. Overall I'd put this 45-55 in Ryu's favor, but a foolish Ryu who doesn't take a grounded, patient approach will be decimated by her.

Edit 2: The Ryu discord consensus is that this MU is even. Apparently we cannot jump cancel bair after shielding the lunge. I personally feel we have slight favor, however.

 

[J0eyboi]

Her aerials are fairly powerful and have good range, but are single hit with the exception of dair.

Not sure if I agree on Ryu being + in this MU, seems more even based on what you're saying, but I just want to preemptively correct people trying to correct you on this:

Despite appearances, Corrin's nair is a single hit move. It cannot hit the same opponent twice, and it cannot break Focus.

 

[Thinkaman]

I saw the ban news but I thought it was for a dying weekly not the main one (Igniton).

That was totally my bad, I reread it and my post completely sounded like I was talking about Ignition, which made it sound like a much more alarming deal than it is.

 

[Ordeaux26]

I reread it and my post completely sounded like I was talking about Ignition

What is Ignition nevermind i just figured it out

 

[Thinkaman]

What is Ignition

The biggest Chicago tourney (weekly): https://www.ssbwiki.com/Tournament:Ignition

 

[Ordeaux26]

The biggest Chicago tourney (weekly): https://www.ssbwiki.com/Tournament:Ignition

so Bayonetta is banned at that tournament

I feel bad for Tyroy imagine if your main was banned at the tournament you go to

 

[Kofu]

It's apparently not _just_ Tyroy, which makes the decision less drastic.

I'm not sure if I agree with it, but it wasn't done solely to spite said weekly's best player.

 

[Ordeaux26]

It's apparently not _just_ Tyroy, which makes the decision less drastic.

I'm not sure if I agree with it, but it wasn't done solely to spite said weekly's best player.

Fair point but I still feel bad for him

 

[Yonder]

Fair point but I still feel bad for him

I mean, it sure is but I've always been in favor of making drastic decisions if needed. Idk the whole situation, but if there's enough oppression from Bayo at these weeklies, a Bayo ban should be soft tested at least. If attendance and stream viewership suffers from her dominance and the game itself is on a downward spiral, time to try out new things. I mean, I wouldn't want to attend a weekly where 80% of the top 8 is Bayo, nor would I want to watch that on my computer, I'd just minimize the stream. And when viewership and tourney attendance suffers, TOs and streaming service lose $. Amputate the limb causing life threatening circumstances before it's too late.

 

[Thinkaman]

so Bayonetta is banned at that tournament

No, the Bayo stuff is strictly at RAID, not Ignition.

 

[Ordeaux26]

No, the Bayo stuff is strictly at RAID, not Ignition.

Ok I get it

I mean, it sure is but I've always been in favor of making drastic decisions if needed. Idk the whole situation, but if there's enough oppression from Bayo at these weeklies, a Bayo ban should be soft tested at least. If attendance and stream viewership suffers from her dominance and the game itself is on a downward spiral, time to try out new things. I mean, I wouldn't want to attend a weekly where 80% of the top 8 is Bayo, nor would I want to watch that on my computer, I'd just minimize the stream. And when viewership and tourney attendance suffers.

I don't know if this ban would really help though because it is already a very small tournament that barely anybody watches it not because of Bayonetta but because people don't care about it as much as the big tournaments so it is hard to say if they viewership and attendance is going down or not and the weekly is not 80% Bayonetta I checked this might actually hurt attendance more because tyroy and other Bayonetta players will stop coming but I am fine with them trying I actually do go to a tourtament like this one and there is barely any bayonetta's at all so I guess there is something about RAID

TOs and streaming service lose $. Amputate the limb causing life threatening circumstances before it's too late.

I wouldn't go that far

 

[Ordeaux26]

There is an upcoming tournament Flatiron 3 on April 21st, 2018 it only needs one more PGR player to qualify for the PGR i checked

https://smash.gg/tournament/flatiron-3/events/sm4sh-singles/overview

 

[blackghost]

I mean, it sure is but I've always been in favor of making drastic decisions if needed. Idk the whole situation, but if there's enough oppression from Bayo at these weeklies, a Bayo ban should be soft tested at least. If attendance and stream viewership suffers from her dominance and the game itself is on a downward spiral, time to try out new things. I mean, I wouldn't want to attend a weekly where 80% of the top 8 is Bayo, nor would I want to watch that on my computer, I'd just minimize the stream. And when viewership and tourney attendance suffers, TOs and streaming service lose $. Amputate the limb causing life threatening circumstances before it's too late.

From my understanding they are simply the lesser event. you dont improve in people's eyes as a scene or gain traction by banning characters. We've been down this argument path before when spain did it.
"I wouldn't want to attend a weekly where 80% of the top 8 is Bayo, nor would I want to watch that on my computer, I'd just

minimize the stream" thats not the case of what happened here. Not a good comparison at all i havent seen a single even where that is the case. This tournament local was the classic occurrence in fgc: great players beating lesser players at weeklies routinely. Tyroy is a top ten bayonetta player. banning his character and effectively banning him truly makes me lose interest in ever following or caring about their scene. This may even hurt ignitoin if people believe they acted with this ban as well.

I do continue to notice how when a bayo player wins its "oppression." when any other top tier performs like a top tier its just "well thats a top tier." As a community we should do better. Perception o f the smash 4 compeititve scene is not good banning characters doesnt help us grow.

 

[EMT~]

With a Bayo ban discussion on the table, I want to bring a certain point up.

I can't help but think that, a lot of people, when they talk about banning Bayonetta, envision that a Bayo ban will bring everything back to some kind of "good old days", back to a Smash 4 environment when Bayo was never released. The thought is that eveverything will be the same as back then, and we can all happily move along.

But I don't think that's the case. Even if we ban Bayo, ban discussion will continue, especially since data suggests that Bayo isn't so dominant as to warrant a ban for that reason alone. Community polarization over the issue wont magically disappear because a ban was passed. And people who main Bayo? They can go to their old mains, but with the knowledge that they were forced to switch off their current main. Would they be playing with the same morale using their old main as they used to, with that in mind?

Simply put, the release of Bayo as a character has irreversibly changed the environment of Smash 4, and banning her won't bring us back to pre-Bayo-release Smash 4 times. Whether you're for or against a Bayo ban, I think this is something that needs to be acknowledged.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

seems kind of dumb to ban a just because one person is winning tournaments there should Europe ban just because mr.r is winning every tournament there

I agree, that'd be like banning ZSS just because Nairo won battle for Vegas. I'm personally against the thought of banning a character just because they are successful, it's really unfair to the players who have put in a large amount of time and effort to learn the character. No matter how broken or overpowered a character appears to be, you cannot disregard player skill.

 

[Ordeaux26]

I do continue to notice how when a bayo player wins its "oppression." when any other top tier performs like a top tier its just "well thats a top tier." As a community we should do better. Perception o f the smash 4 compeititve scene is not good banning characters doesnt help us grow.

I completely agree i makes no sense

I agree, that'd be like banning ZSS just because Nairo won battle for Vegas. I'm personally against the thought of banning a character just because they are successful, it's really unfair to the players who have put in a large amount of time and effort to learn the character. No matter how broken or overpowered a character appears to be, you cannot disregard player skill.

when it comes to Bayonetta the view of her players is downright hypocritical when a Bayonetta player wins a tournament like EGLX 2018 for example or places high people keep that it is Bayonetta but when nairo won smash master league people say Nairo won the tournament not ZSS its like it only matters what character you are playing if it is Bayonetta the truth is it is not Bayonetta that is doing well at these tournaments it's her players Bayonetta definitely helps but it is not the only reason

man that felt good to say

when I come to the subject of banning character there are 2 things a character needs to have to even be considered for a ban, in my opinion, neither of witch Bayonetta fit

1 They need to be so overcentralizing that the metagame revolves around them tournament brackets are completely filled up with them and almost every top player uses them

2 They need to be so overpowered that the only way to beat the character is to use the character itself

 

[The_Bookworm]

Fair point but I still feel bad for him

Fortunately, Tyroy has a pretty strong MK and (believe it or not) Zelda as secondaries.

Lucas also is a pretty hard character to use, Mekos on an entirely new level when it comes to Lucas mains.

I personally think that Lucas's learning curve is a little exaggerated. The only real difficult thing about this character is footstool combos, but even then, it isn't too difficult with some practice. I would argue that Ness has a higher learning curve, due to being often forced to play methodically against characters who outrange and outspeed him (like Cloud and Sonic, respectively).

when it comes to Bayonetta the view of her players is downright hypocritical when a Bayonetta player wins a tournament like EGLX 2018 for example or places high people keep that it is Bayonetta but when nairo won smash master league people say Nairo won the tournament not ZSS its like it only matters what character you are playing if it is Bayonetta the truth is it is not Bayonetta that is doing well at these tournaments it's her players Bayonetta definitely helps but it is not the only reason

man that felt good to say

when i comes to the subject of banning character there are 2 things a character needs to have to even be considered for a ban in my opinion neither of witch Bayonetta fit

1 They need to be so overcentralizing that the metagame revolves around them tournament brackets are completely filled up with them and almost every top player uses them

2 They need to be so overpowered that the only way to beat the character is to use the character itself

The fact that Bayo hasn't won a major in 2018 despite increased high level presence of her, definitely adds on to this too. Good comment!

 

[Ordeaux26]

The fact that Bayo hasn't won a major in 2018 despite increased high level presence of her, definitely adds on to this too

I can't believe I forgot about it the hate for Bayonetta has just gotten out of control at this point its good to know that somebody feels the see way about Bayonetta as I do

 

[Skeeter Mania]

The fact that Bayo hasn't won a major in 2018 despite increased high level presence of her, definitely adds on to this too. Good comment!

WHAT MAJORS?!

 

[Ordeaux26]

WHAT MAJORS?!

Genesis 5
Frostbite 2018
Smash Masters League: Battle For Vegas
Upcoming
Switchfest
Get On My Level 2018

 

[Nah]

Tbh winning a major is an overrated metric for character viability. It's more of a personal achievement than a statement about a character's viability imo. How much real difference is there between 1st place and 3rd place, for a character? It's consistently high placings (among other things) that form a stronger argument for a character being good or not.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Tbh winning a major is an overrated metric for character viability. It's more of a personal achievement than a statement about a character's viability imo. How much real difference is there between 1st place and 3rd place, for a character? It's consistently high placings (among other things) that form a stronger argument for a character being good or not.

But you also have to take into account individual player skill the only Bayonetta's that have been doing consistently well are the same players i do agree and the consistently high placing is important but winning a tournament is huge as well

 

[ぱみゅ]

Tbh winning a major is an overrated metric for character viability. It's more of a personal achievement than a statement about a character's viability imo. How much real difference is there between 1st place and 3rd place, for a character? It's consistently high placings (among other things) that form a stronger argument for a character being good or not.

But the "consistent" results have been made by the same bunch of players that already used her, not the result of many people suddenly using her and jumping up in their results.
The only case I can think of is Leo, but if you truly analyse his games, you notice he is simply very good and smart at the game (and can somehow get away with simple, cookie-cutter combos that end up killing [I'm looking at you, Fatality]). And also the fact he is very often holding practice sessions with the top Bayos.

 

[Ordeaux26]

not the result of many people suddenly using her and jumping up in their results.
The only case I can think of is Leo

no Leo only uses her as a rare counterpick character and his results haven't jumped because he was already a top player before he picked up bayonetta

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yeah, my wording was off, I meant it's the only case of a new Bayonetta in the top ranks, but the player was already providing results long before her.

 

[Nah]

But you also have to take into account individual player skill the only Bayonetta's that have been doing consistently well are the same players i do agree and the consistently high placing is important but winning a tournament is huge as well

But the "consistent" results have been made by the same bunch of players that already used her, not the result of many people suddenly using her and jumping up in their results.
The only case I can think of is Leo, but if you truly analyse his games, you notice he is simply very good and smart at the game (and can somehow get away with simple, cookie-cutter combos that end up killing [I'm looking at you, Fatality]). And also the fact he is very often holding practice sessions with the top Bayos.

Ah, sorry, I should have noted that I wasn't talking about Bayonetta specifically but rather just in general

 

[Ordeaux26]

Ah, sorry, I should have noted that I wasn't talking about Bayonetta specifically but rather just in general

ok that makes sense but still, a tournament win is important as well

 

[J0eyboi]

I would argue that Ness has a higher learning curve, due to being often forced to play methodically against characters who outrange and outspeed him (like Cloud and Sonic, respectively).

And Lucas somehow doesn't have to?

But the "consistent" results have been made by the same bunch of players that already used her, not the result of many people suddenly using her and jumping up in their results.
The only case I can think of is Leo, but if you truly analyse his games, you notice he is simply very good and smart at the game (and can somehow get away with simple, cookie-cutter combos that end up killing [I'm looking at you, Fatality]). And also the fact he is very often holding practice sessions with the top Bayos.

Since when does Leo use Bayo?