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Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

Prince Koopa Jr

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I like to get the jump on things :denzel:

Honestly, Bayo is probably my most researched/labbed character. I’d main her if I didn’t find her neutral and ground playability so incredibly awkward and stiff.

I just like that Mahvel experience in my Smash.

...

Brief Mistake analysis:

I should mention that Mistake will always do well, because his combo game is deep.
I wish I noticed the Ally influence sooner, because it goes a long way to understanding his decision making. He just isn’t playing a character with Mario’s level of playability. Watching his ZSS makes it a little more obvious, though.

For instance, he uses Heelslide like he would ZSS’ dash grab.

His skill to get a read on his opponent’s habits is also fairly well developed. Look at his sets with Thunder, for the biggest twist ending.

Where he gets into trouble is when his opponent has a better neutral, limits his damage output, and/or out damages him. Nairo is the most obvious recent example of this roadblock. The only piece Nairo was missing to handle Mistake was damage reduction. That he added some ZSS specific counterplay was a bonus.
Mistake heel slides the most out of the other Bayos, it really gets him blown up against players who are adept at punishing the move.
 

DunnoBro

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I'd imagine Luigi has serious problems getting past a Mewtwo who walls him out with dtilt and fair.
This is true, but it's mostly the lack of reward for when luigi finally DOES get in. Mewtwo's floatiness and f2 airdodge doesn't allow much.
 

Skeeter Mania

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Brief Mistake analysis:
Exactly how does one analyze this deeply? Do you still expect players like them to take you seriously with these players likely being so much better(sorry for still trying to beat a dead horse)?

Mewtwo's floatiness and f2 airdodge doesn't allow much.
Mewtwo isn't exactly floaty.
 
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blackghost

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When did. Leo start talking about players not using sdi well?
He has a bayo now right? Ive been gone a while. Maybe thats given him some insight?

Also can we refrain from posting player opinions more than 6 months old to win an argument?
 

The_Bookworm

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When did. Leo start talking about players not using sdi well?
He has a bayo now right? Ive been gone a while. Maybe thats given him some insight?

Also can we refrain from posting player opinions more than 6 months old to win an argument?
He only uses Bayo for very specific matchups (it notably solves his heavyweight grappler problem). He mainly uses Marth now.
 

The_Bookworm

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An example is Noods Noods Noods Oakland Edition where he used Bayonetta one time against donkey kong
And he used her to win only two sets (falln and Fatality) in Battle for Vegas, for the entire tournament. Other uses of Bayo in that tourney was to dispose of Tweek's DK, and an (futile) attempt to defeat Nairo in Grand Finals after his Marth lost 4 games against him in that tourney.
 
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Ordeaux26

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And he only used her to win only two sets (falln and Fatality) in Battle for Vegas. Other uses of Bayo in that tourney was to dispose of Tweek's DK, and an (futile) attempt to defeat Nairo in Grand Finals after his Marth lost 4 games against him in that tourney.
MkLeo is not really a Bayonetta player it is just one of his many secondaries
 

The-Technique

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When did. Leo start talking about players not using sdi well?
He has a bayo now right? Ive been gone a while. Maybe thats given him some insight?

Also can we refrain from posting player opinions more than 6 months old to win an argument?
Leo practices with Lima and Mistake on Wi-Fi, plus he streams semi regularly on twitch, he talks about that stuff a lot.
 

MERPIS

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Exactly how does one analyze this deeply? Do you still expect players like them to take you seriously with these players likely being so much better(sorry for still trying to beat a dead horse)?



Mewtwo isn't exactly floaty.
He's not exactly fast faller either, and his weight makes his pretty floaty.
 

The_Bookworm

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We got two big weekends coming up. This upcoming weekend is the A tier event: Switchfest (SoCal)!

PGR'ed
Nairo:4zss:
MKLeo:4marth:
Tweek:4bayonetta2:
Larry Lurr:4fox:
VoiD:4sheik:
Abadango:4bayonetta::4mewtwo:
komorikiri:4cloud2::4sonic:
Cosmos:4corrinf:
Samsora:4peach:
Shuton:4olimar:
Raito:4duckhunt:
Charliedaking:4fox::4bayonetta2:
falln:rosalina:
Kameme:4megaman::4sheik:
Light:4fox:
K9sbruce:4sheik::4diddy:
Zenyou:4mario:
AC:4metaknight:

Notable
Xzax:4fox:
VaLoR:4sonic:
Dynamo:4cloud2::4sheik:
Z:4pikachu:
Aarvark:4villager:
Nicko:4shulk::4marth:
S2H:4metaknight:
Myran:4olimar:
Kiraflax:4pit::4darkpit::4rob:
Kswz:4pit::4darkpit:
ven:4zelda:
Virum:4charizard:
Candy:4fox:
pu55yking:4littlemac:
TLTC:4palutena:


After that, the next weekend will have three C tier events to close off the month: Glitch 4 (MD/VA), Immortal Tech (Tristate), and Arcane Tournaments 2018 (Mexico).

Glitch 4 (:laugh: aka Top Bayo Saga :estatic:)

PGR'ed
Tweek:4bayonetta2:
Dabuz:rosalina:
WaDi:4mewtwo:
Mistake:4bayonetta2:
Cosmos:4corrinf:
Captain Zack:4bayonetta2:
Lima:4bayonetta2:
Darkshad:4ryu:
Mr. E:4lucina::4marth:
6WX:4sonic:
Vinnie:4sheik::rosalina:


Notable
Sinji:4pacman:
Remzi:4zss::4sheik:
Gen:4ryu:
Seagull Joe:4sonic::4diddy:

Mekos:4lucas:
Poyo:4kirby:


Immortal Tech

PGR'ed
Salem:4bayonetta:
Marss:4zss:
Light:4fox:

Notable
Dark Wizzy:4mario:
Blacktwins:4cloud2::4mario:
Glare:4bayonetta:
SDX:4mewtwo:
Koolaid:4sheik:


Arcane Tournaments 2018

PGR'ed
MKLeo:4marth:
Mr. R:4sheik:
Cosmos:4corrinf:
NAKAT:4fox::4ness:

Notable
Javi:4sheik::4cloud2:
Captain L:4pikachu:
Chag:4bayonetta2:

Bonus
Keitaro:4falco::4miibrawl:
 
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Minordeth

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Exactly how does one analyze this deeply?
Frame by frame, or slow down, and pause 1080p/60fps video. Look at individual situations during gameplay and their outcomes. Look at decisions made vs decisions that could have been made. Look at tendencies, habits, patterns. See if/when players noticed their opponents habits, observe what they did, investigate if they could have done something else.

Basically, know the game, know frame data, know hitboxes. If you don’t know, look it up. If you can’t find it, lab it.

Do you still expect players like them to take you seriously with these players likely being so much better(sorry for still trying to beat a dead horse)?
Why do you get so hung up on this when I’ve explained multiple times that I’m not writing for top players?

Why do you keep appealing to top player skill as if that makes them immune from criticism or analysis?

I’ve literally never expected top players to even read this thread. So what now, Skeeter Mania Skeeter Mania ?
 
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Prince Koopa Jr

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We got two big weekends coming up. This upcoming weekend is the A tier event: Switchfest (SoCal)!

PGR'ed
Nairo:4zss:
MKLeo:4marth:
Tweek:4bayonetta2:
Larry Lurr:4fox:
VoiD:4sheik:
Abadango:4bayonetta::4mewtwo:
komorikiri:4cloud2::4sonic:
Cosmos:4corrinf:
Samsora:4peach:
Shuton:4olimar:
Raito:4duckhunt:
Charliedaking:4fox::4bayonetta2:
falln:rosalina:
Kameme:4megaman::4sheik:
Light:4fox:
K9sbruce:4sheik::4diddy:
Zenyou:4mario:
AC:4metaknight:

Notable
Xzax:4fox:
VaLoR:4sonic:
Dynamo:4cloud2::4sheik:
Z:4pikachu:
Aarvark:4villager:
Nicko:4shulk::4marth:
S2H:4metaknight:
Myran:4olimar:
Kiraflax:4pit::4darkpit::4rob:
Kswz:4pit::4darkpit:
ven:4zelda:
Virum:4charizard:
Candy:4fox:
pu55yking:4littlemac:
TLTC:4palutena:


After that, the next weekend will have three C tier events to close off the month: Glitch 4 (MD/VA), Immortal Tech (Tristate), and Arcane Tournaments 2018 (Mexico).

Glitch 4 (:laugh: aka Top Bayo Saga :estatic:)

PGR'ed
Tweek:4bayonetta2:
Dabuz:rosalina:
WaDi:4mewtwo:
Mistake:4bayonetta2:
Cosmos:4corrinf:
Captain Zack:4bayonetta2:
Lima:4bayonetta2:
Darkshad:4ryu:
Mr. E:4lucina::4marth:
6WX:4sonic:
Vinnie:4sheik::rosalina:


Notable
Sinji:4pacman:
Remzi:4zss::4sheik:
Gen:4ryu:
Seagull Joe:4sonic::4diddy:

Mekos:4lucas:
Poyo:4kirby:


Immortal Tech

PGR'ed
Salem:4bayonetta:
Marss:4zss:
Light:4fox:

Notable
Dark Wizzy:4mario:
Blacktwins:4cloud2::4mario:
Glare:4bayonetta:
SDX:4mewtwo:
Koolaid:4sheik:


Arcane Tournaments 2018

PGR'ed
MKLeo:4marth:
Mr. R:4sheik:
Cosmos:4corrinf:
NAKAT:4fox::4ness:

Notable
Javi:4sheik::4cloud2:
Captain L:4pikachu:
Chag:4bayonetta2:

Bonus
Keitaro:4falco::4miibrawl:
That looks like a pretty good lineup of attendees so far, switchfest is going to be packed. Really looking forward to seeing this tournament.
 

DunnoBro

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kinda difficult to say how indicative it is. neither ally nor mistake got sleep the night before and mistake wasn't abusing mario anywhere near as hard as he could have; there were a few points where he abused ally's shield but he never played anti-grab like he should have and never forced ally offstage.

he also went two games as zero suit, which did help flush his muscle memory for set 2 but it also means that ally had to fight bayo 2 games fewer than he would have otherwise. also don't forget that ally was 3-0ed twice by bayonetta at eglx 2018, and one of those bayonettas was...mistake
Another asterisk to Ally vs Mistake is that Mistake doesn't seem to know that Bayo can ALWAYS bat within out of dair. Even at max rage. Really dumb. Dunno how much it'd effect things recently, but it would've been the difference between taking damage and dealing damage in more than a few interactions.

It's doubly annoying because Bayo would otherwise be one of the few characters Uthrow kill confirms on. Due to being a fast faller with such low airspeed she can't weave away. (SJP would catch jump/attack, dair would catch no jump/airdodge.
 

The_Bookworm

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Another asterisk to Ally vs Mistake is that Mistake doesn't seem to know that Bayo can ALWAYS bat within out of dair. Even at max rage. Really dumb. Dunno how much it'd effect things recently, but it would've been the difference between taking damage and dealing damage in more than a few interactions.
That is because Bat Within is a double-edged sword. You can escape out of dair with BW and get away with it, or the opponent reads it and follows it up.

Either that, or Mistake forgot it was an option.
 
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DunnoBro

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That is because Bat Within is a double-edged sword. You can escape out of dair with BW and get away with it, or the opponent reads it and follows it up.

Either that, or Mistake forgot it was an option.
No. I mean she can bat within after dair connects. (Before the final strong hit) His move is just glitched. Without rage, anyone with a frame 3 or faster (all but 4 chars in the game) can airdodge before the last hit. Bayo's bat within is f1, so she can do it even if Mario has rage.

Then Bayo can just witch twist. Even if mario air dodges, she can just fall with nair after. Pretty guaranteed damage for trying to dair bayo.
 
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Ordeaux26

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It's doubly annoying because Bayo would otherwise be one of the few characters Uthrow kill confirms on. Due to being a fast faller with such low airspeed she can't weave away. (SJP would catch jump/attack, dair would catch no jump/airdodge.
Can you clarify because that is kind of confusing what you are saying
 

The_Bookworm

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No. I mean she can bat within after dair connects. (Before the final strong hit) His move is just glitched. Without rage, anyone with a frame 3 or faster (all but 4 chars in the game) can airdodge before the last hit. Bayo's bat within is f1, so she can do it even if Mario has rage.

Then Bayo can just witch twist. Even if mario air dodges, she can just fall with nair after. Pretty guaranteed damage for trying to dair bayo.
Mario could trade with Bayo's nair afterwards, but may be something Mistake may look for in the future when fighting Ally again.
 

|RK|

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We got two big weekends coming up. This upcoming weekend is the A tier event: Switchfest (SoCal)!

PGR'ed
Nairo:4zss:
MKLeo:4marth:
Tweek:4bayonetta2:
Larry Lurr:4fox:
VoiD:4sheik:
Abadango:4bayonetta::4mewtwo:
komorikiri:4cloud2::4sonic:
Cosmos:4corrinf:
Samsora:4peach:
Shuton:4olimar:
Raito:4duckhunt:
Charliedaking:4fox::4bayonetta2:
falln:rosalina:
Kameme:4megaman::4sheik:
Light:4fox:
K9sbruce:4sheik::4diddy:
Zenyou:4mario:
AC:4metaknight:

Notable
Xzax:4fox:
VaLoR:4sonic:
Dynamo:4cloud2::4sheik:
Z:4pikachu:
Aarvark:4villager:
Nicko:4shulk::4marth:
S2H:4metaknight:
Myran:4olimar:
Kiraflax:4pit::4darkpit::4rob:
Kswz:4pit::4darkpit:
ven:4zelda:
Virum:4charizard:
Candy:4fox:
pu55yking:4littlemac:
TLTC:4palutena:


After that, the next weekend will have three C tier events to close off the month: Glitch 4 (MD/VA), Immortal Tech (Tristate), and Arcane Tournaments 2018 (Mexico).

Glitch 4 (:laugh: aka Top Bayo Saga :estatic:)

PGR'ed
Tweek:4bayonetta2:
Dabuz:rosalina:
WaDi:4mewtwo:
Mistake:4bayonetta2:
Cosmos:4corrinf:
Captain Zack:4bayonetta2:
Lima:4bayonetta2:
Darkshad:4ryu:
Mr. E:4lucina::4marth:
6WX:4sonic:
Vinnie:4sheik::rosalina:


Notable
Sinji:4pacman:
Remzi:4zss::4sheik:
Gen:4ryu:
Seagull Joe:4sonic::4diddy:

Mekos:4lucas:
Poyo:4kirby:


Immortal Tech

PGR'ed
Salem:4bayonetta:
Marss:4zss:
Light:4fox:

Notable
Dark Wizzy:4mario:
Blacktwins:4cloud2::4mario:
Glare:4bayonetta:
SDX:4mewtwo:
Koolaid:4sheik:


Arcane Tournaments 2018

PGR'ed
MKLeo:4marth:
Mr. R:4sheik:
Cosmos:4corrinf:
NAKAT:4fox::4ness:

Notable
Javi:4sheik::4cloud2:
Captain L:4pikachu:
Chag:4bayonetta2:

Bonus
Keitaro:4falco::4miibrawl:
Good stuff! Though Glitch is B-tier now.

Yet doesn't this thread still occasionally count Larry's secondary DK even though he barely pulls it out?
No. Besides, these lists are typically made based on recency.
 

Ordeaux26

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Great, we've almost gotten to brawl MK levels
That is the players attending the tournament, not the pgr players i is just a coincidence that a lot of the top player attending are Bayonetta players that is not even the results of the tourtament
 
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MERPIS

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That is the players attending the tournament, not the pgr players i is just a coincidence that a lot of the top player attending are Bayonetta players that is not even the results of the tourtament
still, that's all players that are either in the current top 15 or have been in the past, its ridiculous how many people are switching to this overpowered joke of a character
 

The_Bookworm

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still, that's all players that are either in the current top 15 or have been in the past, its ridiculous how many people are switching to this overpowered joke of a character
It is literally just three players. Lima is not top 15.
Good stuff! Though Glitch is B-tier now.
I checked the PGR chart again. It is still C tier.
 
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Ordeaux26

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still, that's all players that are either in the current top 15
Why does that matter Bayonetta is the best character for a reason there are players for the character them all attending this tournament is just a coincidence

its ridiculous how many people are switching to this overpowered joke of a character
Nobody on the pgr has switched to Bayonetta this year
 

MERPIS

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It is literally just three players. Lima is not top 15.

I checked the PGR chart again. It is still C tier.
Why does that matter Bayonetta is the best character for a reason there are players for the character them all attending this tournament is just a coincidence



Nobody on the pgr has switched to Bayonetta this year
k
 

Prince Koopa Jr

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Why does that matter Bayonetta is the best character for a reason there are players for the character them all attending this tournament is just a coincidence



Nobody on the pgr has switched to Bayonetta this year
Tweek is basically a Bayo main now, he has a powerful Cloud secondary and a pocket DK for certain matchups.
 

The_Bookworm

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Nobody on the pgr has switched to Bayonetta this year
Tweek switched to maining Bayonetta, although JK no longer attends tournaments so it kinda balances it out. Instead of Salem winning all the tournaments for the character (in which he hasn't won any in a while now, even at a regional level), Tweek is now (although none of them are majors unlike during Salem's period of dominance).
 

J0eyboi

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Messages
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Great, we've almost gotten to brawl MK levels
I like how you cherry picked a B-tier event with a lot of Bayos while ignoring that this weekend's A-tier tourney has literally three notable Bayos, and only 1 solo Bayo.

Oh, and by the way?
The Brawl 2014 PR had 28 MKs in top 100, and 15 in top 50. There are 8 PGR'd Bayos, and 1 doesn't even attend tournaments anymore. So no.

Edit: For the record, there are 20 Fox's in the Melee top 50 currently.
 
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The_Bookworm

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I like how you cherry picked a B-tier event
That is weird. When I checked the PGR chart when RK informed me of it's status of B tier, it stayed as C tier. When I looked at it again just now, it now says B tier.
:crazy:
 
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