Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Ordeaux26]

>Mewtwo being -2 against fox
get out, you clearly know moot

I Have No Idea Why I Labelled It That I Will Fix It

 

[Heracr055]

Alrighty, time to drop some Ryu clarifications:
-Ryu has a slight disadvantage vs Marcina
-Ryu has a slight advantage on Corrin
-Hadouken is a terrible projectile (any version of it). The cooldown on the move is almost a second, so it's primary purpose (the normal Hadouken) is for a safe poke. The Shakenutsu (red fireball) can be used to prompt a shield, which sets up for potential closing the distance or even grabs & shield breaker against conditioned foes.
-I wouldn't call Ryu a functional Ganon. He's more mobile, has a monstrous up-close game, can combo like nobody's business and can safe confirm into early kills.
-The reason Ryu struggles so hard vs Rosa is because Luma prevents him from achieving his win condition (close range). Even if he lands a hit on Luma, the hit stun on his moves leaves him vulnerable to retaliation by Rosa. And of course her multi hits with Luma break his Focus shenanigains (think of Mega Kangaskhan getting two hits per move; she gets 2 hits at minimum from almost any move).
-Ryu really isn't a difficult character. The so called high level curve is artificial and the perception never seems to fade away
-Ryu is becoming more relevant in a metagame where heavy punishes are preferable to neutral wins

 

[The_Bookworm]

Alrighty, time to drop some Ryu clarifications:
-Ryu has a slight disadvantage vs Marcina
-Ryu has a slight advantage on Corrin
-Hadouken is a terrible projectile (any version of it). The cooldown on the move is almost a second, so it's primary purpose (the normal Hadouken) is for a safe poke. The Shakenutsu (red fireball) can be used to prompt a shield, which sets up for potential closing the distance or even grabs & shield breaker against conditioned foes.
-I wouldn't call Ryu a functional Ganon. He's more mobile, has a monstrous up-close game, can combo like nobody's business and can safe confirm into early kills.
-The reason Ryu struggles so hard vs Rosa is because Luma prevents him from achieving his win condition (close range). Even if he lands a hit on Luma, the hit stun on his moves leaves him vulnerable to retaliation by Rosa. And of course her multi hits with Luma break his Focus shenanigains (think of Mega Kangaskhan getting two hits per move; she gets 2 hits at minimum from almost any move).
-Ryu really isn't a difficult character. The so called high level curve is artificial and the perception never seems to fade away
-Ryu is becoming more relevant in a metagame where heavy punishes are preferable to neutral wins

Pretty much all of it, for the most part, is right, although Ryu is an easy character to mess up due to the dexterity of his inputs.

 

[Nah]

Alrighty, time to drop some Ryu clarifications:
-Ryu has a slight disadvantage vs Marcina
-Ryu has a slight advantage on Corrin

Would you mind giving a little more information on these please?

 

[Ordeaux26]

if you want to give info here is the full thread

https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-matchup-chart.453349/

 

[Rizen]

-Hadouken is a terrible projectile (any version of it). The cooldown on the move is almost a second, so it's primary purpose (the normal Hadouken) is for a safe poke. The Shakenutsu (red fireball) can be used to prompt a shield, which sets up for potential closing the distance or even grabs & shield breaker against conditioned foes.

Here's a great example of why Hadouken is not a terrible projectile:

Its (true version) transcendent property and large hitbox makes it good for anti-zoning, punishing landings and like you said, a poke. This means a lot on a character who's a CQC monster like Ryu.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Here's a great example of why Hadouken is not a terrible projectile:

Its (true version) transcendent property and large hitbox makes it good for anti-zoning, punishing landings and like you said, a poke. This means a lot on a character who's a CQC monster like Ryu.

Well, against a character like Link, it may not be.

 

[Heracr055]

I mean, it set up for a few safe pokes on platforms, and knocked off Scizor a few times when he was right on the ledge. In general, however, it is easily punishable and can even be broken by normal jabs. It can even be avoided altogether by just avoiding it with jumps or running from it. This agility is a trait frequently seen in the top tiers.
I'll address Marth and Corrin when I'm in the mood by editing this post later.

 

[my_T]

For those that wanted to see the sets between FOW and Extra (Ness vs G&W) from the Expand Gong 3 tournament

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/247990034

 

[MERPIS]

Oh boy time to talk about psychic characters
Dude Mewtwo is the result of the balance team getting drunk, piecing together the best parts of Ness and Sheik, and giving him a sword, but when they awoke from their drunkened state, in their hangover, realizing that would single-handedly crash the game in a nearby ditch, so they also gave him ness's frame data and puff's weight class, thinking this would be enough to balance him, and yet he's still an unholy, volatile, abomination of a character

 

[The_Bookworm]

Oh boy time to talk about psychic characters
Dude Mewtwo is the result of the balance team getting drunk, piecing together the best parts of Ness and Sheik, and giving him a sword, but when they awoke from their drunkened state, in their hangover, realizing that would single-handedly crash the game in a nearby ditch, so they also gave him ness's frame data and puff's weight class, thinking this would be enough to balance him, and yet he's still an unholy, volatile, abomination of a character

I hope you are referring to his glitched custom moves when saying "crash the game in a nearby ditch". XD
Two things i am wondering: what sword, and would giving him Ness's frame data be a blessing (unless it started with Sheik's)?

 

[MERPIS]

I hope you are referring to his glitched custom moves when saying "crash the game in a nearby ditch". XD
Two things i am wondering: what sword, and would giving him Ness's frame data be a blessing (unless it started with Sheik's)?

No go away, obviously you don't know what eldritch being I'm talking about, mewtwo rips the souls out of its victims in what I can only describe as, directed by M. Night Shyamalan. This sword, the sword being this god's tail, look at it, it gets pulverized by a frigging buster sword and it doesn't even feel anything, it comes out of bouts unscathed and hungry for blood, Mewtwo's frame data is the only thing keeping it back from torching everything it touches, luckily and unluckily, its best moves are relatively fast, so no real worries of being outframed in the forward air race.

 

[The_Bookworm]

No go away, obviously you don't know what eldritch being I'm talking about, mewtwo rips the souls out of its victims in what I can only describe as, directed by M. Night Shyamalan. This sword, the sword being this god's tail, look at it, it gets pulverized by a frigging buster sword and it doesn't even feel anything, it comes out of bouts unscathed and hungry for blood, Mewtwo's frame data is the only thing keeping it back from torching everything it touches, luckily and unluckily, its best moves are relatively fast, so no real worries of being outframed in the forward air race.

You do realize that Mewtwo's tail is still part of it's hurtbox. In PM, only the inner half of it's extremely long tail has a hurtbox.

 

[J0eyboi]

You do realize that Mewtwo's tail is still part of it's hurtbox. In PM, only the inner half of it's extremely long tail has a hurtbox.

Jesus, I thought Browny was exaggerating.

I don't even know how I should feel anymore, have people seen this website?

https://struz.github.io/smash-move-viewer/#/v1/mewtwo/AttackAirB/13

For years... YEARS, Mewtwo mains had to put up with so called 'intelligent' people including back room members and moderators telling us that Mewtwos hurtbox was bigger than his body, it covered his tail and he didn't have disjointed attacks. I can still watch streams in 2018 and commentators are STILL GETTING THIS WRONG. I wrote this thread almost 2.5 years ago
https://smashboards.com/threads/the-misconceptions-about-mewtwos-hurtbox-end-here.416127/

and surprise surprise, just about everything I said is true.

Let this be a lesson to people on this forum, don't trust what 'pros' or commentators say about this game because way too often people are ignorant sheep. I'm not talking about commentators saying 'wind monado' or nonsense like that, I'm talking about whether the #1 player in your scene spreads some idiotic lie about X character only having Y true kill set ups. If you think someone is wrong about something and have reasons to believe so, tell them they are wrong. Start a dialogue because if their opinion has merit, they will back it up. No one ever got good at video games by being too afraid to argue over tactics. If they call you dumb, so what, they are the ones who will lose because they don't understand the games mechanics while you get better, quicker.

I don't even know how many infractions I've got on this forum for attacking people who deliberately spread lies but every single one of them was worth it. BTW Zero's current coach is one of those people, massively wrong about a lot of things but it just goes unchallenged so often because of his position.

Or people can just continue doing what they do, be friendly to anyone and never have a different opinion. I hate that it feels good to be vindicated after all these years because there is always such resistance to anyone who disagrees with what 'pros' say.

 

[MERPIS]

You do realize that Mewtwo's tail is still part of it's hurtbox. In PM, only the inner half of it's extremely long tail has a hurtbox.

no

 

[The_Bookworm]

Jesus, I thought Browny was exaggerating.

Fortunately, most of his idle-type animations in SSB4 put a lot of his tail in the Z axis, so it is not as a big issue as in Melee (where literally his entire tail is stretched out and easy to hit).

 

[J0eyboi]

Fortunately, most of his idle-type animations in SSB4 put a lot of his tail in the Z axis, so it is not as a big issue as in Melee (where literally his entire tail is stretched out and easy to hit).

Look at the move viewer linked in the post I quoted. Half of M2's tail just does not have a hurtbox at any time.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Look at the move viewer linked in the post I quoted. Half of M2's tail just does not have a hurtbox at any time.

Oh, that is cool! It is not a long disjoint at all (especially in comparison to PM Mewtwo), but it is cool.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Oh, that is cool! It is not a long disjoint at all (especially in comparison to PM Mewtwo), but it is cool.

Mewtwo's tail hitbox is interesting, fair probably sees more use due to how quick and powerful it is.

 

[Illusion.]

RE: " loses to X, Y, and Z"

All too often on this thread, I see people confidently claim "Bayonetta loses to X" or "Bayonetta loses to Y," but in reality, some of the characters mentioned have little to no support for backing up those claims; personally, I find it annoying when statements with little support like that are tossed around, seemingly, as fact. So, let's take a look at what the best players of both sides' believe these MUs are.

I'd really rather not use statements issued more than a year ago, but I don't have a choice for some (though I will not use statements made in 2016); they'll be marked with an asterisk. If you happen to find something more recent for the ones marked with an asterisk, let me know.
------------------------------------------------------------------

If there's one thing I noticed when it comes to this MU, it's that the opinion shifts depending on the level of play. Low and mid level / players will say that it is in 's favor, but high and top level / players will say it's in 's favor.

Dabuz believes it is a disadvantage for Rosalina, and has potential to be her worst MU overall.
falln believes it is "unfavorable" for Rosalina.
Kirihara has not commented on the MU, at least to my knowledge, since 2016.

Tyroy believes Bayonetta wins, looks to be about a slight advantage.
CaptainZack believes Bayonetta slightly wins.*
Lima believes that Bayonetta has a "notable advantage."
Sells believes it is slightly in Bayonetta's favor.
I couldn't find anything from Mistake, Salem, or Tweek.

I did not find a single high or top level player on either side that believes Rosalina wins this. At all.
Conclusion: Bayonetta beats Rosalina, she does not even come close to losing, in fact. Dabuz, one of the "Bayo killers," even thinks this MU sucks. This is one of those characters that has no business being tossed in with the "does well against Bayonetta" group.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

ZeRo appears to believe it is even, but admits that she has room to optimize and eventually win the MU.
Dyr believes Bayonetta wins slightly.
Zinoto believes Diddy Kong wins slightly.
Legit believes Diddy Kong wins slightly.
I couldn't find anything from MVD, Edge, Shoyo James, or K9sbruce.

Tyroy believes the MU is even.
CaptainZack believes Bayonetta wins slightly (different Tweet).
Lima believes Bayonetta wins slightly, and thinks the MU is only going to get better for her.
Sells believes it is even.
Tweek believes it is either even or slight disadvantage for Bayonetta.
I couldn't find anything from Mistake or Salem.

Conclusion: It's very split on both sides right now. I personally wouldn't say Bayonetta wins like some of these players believe, but I wouldn't say she loses either. It's more reasonable to call the MU even.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Komorikiri believes Cloud goes even.
Tweek believes it is even, and admits that Bayonetta is more likely to win it.
MattyG deleted his Twitter, so I can't link the chart, but he did put the MU as even if I'm remembering correctly.
I couldn't find anything for Mkleo, but he does go Marth for that MU, so that may imply something.
I couldn't find anything recent for Ned.

CaptainZack believes Bayonetta loses slightly.
Lima believes Bayonetta loses slightly.
Tweek believes it is even, and admits that Bayonetta is more likely to win it.
Sells believes that Bayonetta loses slightly.
I couldn't find anything for Mistake or Salem.

Conclusion:This is a weird one. It appears that most of the Bayonetta players think Cloud wins, but none of the Cloud players listed agree, though there is a very small sample size, unfortunately. Hopefully, more high and top level Clouds express their thoughts soon.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
/
Mkleo believes Marth loses slightly.
Mr. E believes Marth either loses -1 or -2.
Pugwest believes the MU is even.
NAKAT believes Lucina loses slightly.

CaptainZack believes Bayonetta slightly wins.*
Lima believes Bayonetta loses slightly.
Tyroy believes Bayonetta goes even with Marth, but beats Lucina.
Sells believes Bayonetta wins slightly.
I couldn't find anything for Mistake, Salem, or Tweek.

Conclusion: Come on guys... literally zero of the best Falchions players think they have at least a slight advantage against Bayonetta, and all but one of the Bayonetta players believe they win. Not even Mkleo, "the Bayo killer," thinks the Falchions beat Bayonetta. Falchions beating Bayonetta is a bad meme.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frozen believes the MU is even.
Cosmos believes Corrin loses -1 or -2* (?)
Ryuga believes the MU is either even or slight disadvantage for Corrin.
Yura believes Corrin loses slightly*.

Tweek believes Bayonetta goes even with Corrin.
CaptainZack believes Bayonetta wins slightly*.
Lima believes Bayonetta has a "notable advantage."
Sells believes Bayonetta has a slight advantage.
Tyroy believes that Bayonetta, seemingly, has a slight advantage.
I couldn't find anything for Mistake or Salem.

Conclusion: Just like the Falchions, again, zero of the best Corrin players believe they beat Bayonetta. Another bad meme.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

ESAM believes Pikachu wins slightly (no surprise there).
...and that's about all we got. Rideae and Captain L haven't posted a MU chart since 2016, so I would rather not use those. But in case you are curious, Rideae put it as -2 and Captain L put it as 50:50.

Tyroy, Tweek, Lima, and Sells all believe the MU is even.
CaptainZack believes Bayonetta wins slightly.*
I couldn't find anything for Salem or Mistake.

Conclusion: Severe lack of data on the Pikachu side of things, but nearly all the Bayonettas agree that it is an even MU. Pikachu does well, but there is very little support of the argument that Pikachu wins the MU.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blank believes Sheik has what seems to be a very slight advantage.
Ho believes the MU is even.
Nom believes the MU is even.
Mr. R believes Sheik wins slightly.
I couldn't find anything for VoiD, Eim, or Karna.

Tyroy believes the MU is even.
CaptainZack believes the MU is even.*
Lima believes Bayonetta has a "notable advantage."
Sells believes the MU is even.
Tweek believes Sheik "beats Bayonetta."
I couldn't find anything for Mistake or Salem, though I would assume Salem thinks Bayonetta wins since he thinks Sheik isn't that good of a character.

Conclusion: Sheik looks to be the character that does the best against Bayonetta, it's definitely fair to say she does well if we're going solely based on theory. The opinions are split, much like Diddy Kong, but less so. But until both sides aren't split as to how this MU goes, I'm hesitant to say Bayonetta loses this.

 

[ARGHETH]

Cosmos believes Corrin loses -1 or -2* (?)

This was from March 2017, before any of Cosmos' breakout performances and before he had taken any sets off top Bayos. I'd assume his opinion's different now.

Also, I'd be hesitant to make any concrete opinions on the Corrin MU based on these lists, considering 3/4 of them (including the two best Corrins) are from last year.

 

[The-Technique]

I really expected a better post from a backroomer to be honest. One thing id like to point out is that although Leo has a low opinion toward both Cloud and Marth, these days he's very adamant about how little SDI or lack of optimal SDI that players use against Bayonetta and that she is indeed fair to fight against. Tune into any of Leo's twitch streams and ask about it yourself, he will tell you the same.

Another thing about Leo he isn't a "Bayo slayer" just for fluff. He literally hasn't dropped a single set vs top Bayos in the past 8 months. He has all this success yet the only thing people can takeaway or analyze from his gameplay is that he's a "god", implying that his decision making and reactions are simply unattainable to the average mortal. Is Marth a hard character to learn, to play well? Ask yourself that.

 

[Rizen]

I really expected a better post from a backroomer to be honest. One thing id like to point out is that although Leo has a low opinion toward both Cloud and Marth, these days he's very adamant about how little SDI or lack of optimal SDI that players use against Bayonetta and that she is indeed fair to fight against. Tune into any of Leo's twitch streams and ask about it yourself, he will tell you the same.

That's easy for Leo to say: he's a replicant. But seriously, being younger gives him an edge on that type of thing. Leo will end up being the ZeRo of SSB5.

The thing about Bayo's combos is you can't consistently SDI them all the time. Different Bayo players have their own timing and can cut them short into an Up air like Captain Zach has done. I played one Bayo and SDIed their ladders but later played a PRed Bayo and they had much more optimized combos. Even top players get carried off screen. Then there's the element of dying from the side. Watch Salem vs Fatality; the games Salem wins he wisks CF away for gimps at low %s. You can die at any time from 1 conversion by Bayo and that's not even considering WT.

With that said, Fatality won the set. Bayo is weaker than other top tiers in neutral and fairly light. She's the best character but not broken. Bayo only carries players in that sense; good characters win more easily. Salem won that one tournament with Greninja and a Brawl super major with ZSS.

PS it says a lot about Diddy's viability that top players think he beats Bayo. I want to see Diddy take a large event so I can link his monkey rap from DK64 .

 

[Minordeth]

Honestly, top and high level players have just started incorporating systematic defense against Bayo in the last four months. The “just SDI” meme is a point of contention the in the player base because it was only part of the information. Centralized, comprehensive sources were not popularized until the tail end of the year (think Beefy Smash Dudes level).

@blackghost was right two years ago, in that Bayo’s gameplan is simple, and it will only be a matter of time before it gets figured out.

This can be demonstrably seen in not just top level cases like Leo, but across the board. Cosmos, for instance, became a Bayo killer once he started practicing with Tweek and Mistake.

But even other high/top level players are catching on. Karna straight up admitted he didn’t know how to SDI well, and finally practiced with Lima. Since then, he has beaten both Mistake and Lima, the latter of whom he has an overwhelmingly positive record on in the past few months. Lima just beat him recently.

So what’s the point?
Bayo relies on her damage output to keep her risk/reward in her favor. The defensive techniques that limit that output are universal. However, only so many characters can both apply those universal strategies and put out more damage. If they can regularly seal stocks earlier than her, the better.

I like to flippantly throw out MUs that Bayo loses because it’s fun. But really, if acharacter has more guaranteed damage output, an equal or easier time sealing stocks, and a similar or better neutral, then I would say she loses that MU.

Finally, the dividing line between top level Bayos and everyone else is becoming more and more stark. Essentially, it comes down to one thing: how extensive and deep is their conversion game, given a straightfoward neutral? You see how differently Tweek and Mistake played Cosmos than most of the competition? Tweek used Witch Twist maybe once or twice a game. Mistake absolutely noted how Cosmos SDI’d and blitzed him hard for two games, and Cosmos still almost reverse 3-0’d him.

Salem is finally dealing with players that know how to play Bayo in neutral. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him start grinding out his conversion game with the other top Bayos.

The Smash 4 arms race is real. Bayo may have guns, but what happens when her opponents start wearing body armor?

 

[The-Technique]

Reminder that Ally 6-0'd Mistake very recently, and Ally is someone who very vocally expresses his dislike toward Bayo. Both players were laughing their butts off throughout the set.

I always found it weird how Luigi performed better historically vs top Bayonettas despite being an objectively inferior character to Mario. ANTi says that he's "desensitized" to Bayo, omitting her from the list of characters that annoy him the most to play against. Maybe top Marios figured something out?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Reminder that Ally 6-0'd Mistake very recently, and Ally is someone who very vocally expresses his dislike toward Bayo. Both players were laughing their butts off throughout the set.

I always found it weird how Luigi performed better historically vs top Bayonettas despite being an objectively inferior character to Mario. ANTi says that he's "desensitized" to Bayo, omitting her from the list of characters that annoy him the most to play against. Maybe top Marios figured something out?

Perhaps the Mario mains have figured some important things out about the Bayo matchup. Ally 6-0ing mistake shows a large improvement in playing the matchup.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

objectively

How so?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Pretty much all the Bayo talk summarizes my analysis on her. This is good talk! Anyways, lets cut to the chase.

The Scarlet Classic IV (C tier)

1st: Dabuz
2nd: Mr. E
3rd: Ralphie
4th: Sinji
5th: 6wx
5th: JaKaL
7th: Angel Cortes
7th: TGG
9th: Arhungry
9th: Roxas
9th: Squidboy
9th: Dre Charles
13th: Earthboundy
13th: Vince
13th: Biddy
13th: Law

Mexico is now getting some rep this PGR! Two events there have been added (and are so far, both C tier): Arcane Tournaments 2018 (4/29/18) and Smash Factor 7 (7/22/18).

 

[The-Technique]

How so?

His worst matchups are almost unwinnable compared to Mario's, its the main reason Elegant is working on a ZSS secondary specifically to deal with Rosalina and Mewtwo. Then you factor in things like traction, mobility, exploitable recovery, landing options, approach options, etc that overall Mario slightly edges out as a better character than him, also reflected by their current tier list placing.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

His worst matchups are almost unwinnable compared to Mario's, its the main reason Elegant is working on a ZSS secondary specifically to deal with Rosalina and Mewtwo. Then you factor in things like traction, mobility, exploitable recovery, landing options, approach options, etc that overall Mario slightly edges out as a better character than him, also reflected by their current tier list placing.

What makes Mewtwo bad?

 

[Illusion.]

This was from March 2017, before any of Cosmos' breakout performances and before he had taken any sets off top Bayos. I'd assume his opinion's different now.

Also, I'd be hesitant to make any concrete opinions on the Corrin MU based on these lists, considering 3/4 of them (including the two best Corrins) are from last year.

Correct.

I said at the beginning of the post that I would mark some stuff from a year ago, that I reluctantly had to use, with an asterisk.

I really expected a better post from a backroomer to be honest.

What more were you expecting then?

 

[J0eyboi]

The Smash 4 arms race is real. Bayo may have guns, but what happens when her opponents start wearing body armor?

So I'm aware that this is a metaphor, and yet I feel the need to point out that Samus has a worse MU vs Bayo than ZSS all the same.

What makes Mewtwo bad?

I'd imagine Luigi has serious problems getting past a Mewtwo who walls him out with dtilt and fair.

I always found it weird how Luigi performed better historically vs top Bayonettas despite being an objectively inferior character to Mario.

Luigi is not "objectively inferior to Mario". Luigi is much more polarized than Mario, due to being nearly the worst character in the game at dealing with zoning. Fortunately, it just so happens that Bayo isn't a great zoner.

This was from March 2017, before any of Cosmos' breakout performances and before he had taken any sets off top Bayos. I'd assume his opinion's different now.

I would agree, given that he's tweeted that Bayos make his bracket runs easier.

 

[Nah]

I really expected a better post from a backroomer to be honest. One thing id like to point out is that although Leo has a low opinion toward both Cloud and Marth, these days he's very adamant about how little SDI or lack of optimal SDI that players use against Bayonetta and that she is indeed fair to fight against. Tune into any of Leo's twitch streams and ask about it yourself, he will tell you the same.

Another thing about Leo he isn't a "Bayo slayer" just for fluff. He literally hasn't dropped a single set vs top Bayos in the past 8 months. He has all this success yet the only thing people can takeaway or analyze from his gameplay is that he's a "god", implying that his decision making and reactions are simply unattainable to the average mortal. Is Marth a hard character to learn, to play well? Ask yourself that.

While I agree that the community in general could use to try a little harder when it comes to learning to fight Bayonetta and look to players like Dabuz/Leo/Cosmos for examples, let’s not go to the other extreme and also think that literally everything top players do is indeed “attainable to the average mortal”.

 

[Minordeth]

While I agree that the community in general could use to try a little harder when it comes to learning to fight Bayonetta and look to players like Dabuz/Leo/Cosmos for examples, let’s not go to the other extreme and also think that literally everything top players do is indeed “attainable to the average mortal”.

This is true. The depth of actual situational knowledge that top players have is massive.

On the other hand, I’d argue the average mid level Bayo is going to have nowhere near the intense lab practice or conversion game that Mistake or Lima do. Not knowing how to deal with an opponent who can SDI just enough to mess up your WTw1 followups or just enough to mess with your ABK is actually fairly devastating.

You can literally see that difference play out at a high level. Tyroy just could not out damage Darkshad at Full Bloom, nor could he seal stocks efficiently. Darkshad knew just enough to force Tyroy to Rosa. And that’s Tyroy. He’s no slouch at Bayo. But there’s a reason Tweek, for instance, is constantly so impressed with Mistake’s combo game. The difference is stark.

 

[Ordeaux26]

This whole discussion on Bayonetta proves that nobody can agree on her matchups even top-level players can't agree can we all just have our opinions and move on smash 4 is so diverse in characters and matchups that it is nearly impossible to determine this kind of stuff I'm not treating my matchup chart as fact I am just making it for fun showing what I think maybe we should stop discussing matchups on Bayonetta because nobody can agree on anything

no wonder there is no official matchup chart

 

[MercuryPenny]

Reminder that Ally 6-0'd Mistake very recently, and Ally is someone who very vocally expresses his dislike toward Bayo. Both players were laughing their butts off throughout the set.

kinda difficult to say how indicative it is. neither ally nor mistake got sleep the night before and mistake wasn't abusing mario anywhere near as hard as he could have; there were a few points where he abused ally's shield but he never played anti-grab like he should have and never forced ally offstage.

he also went two games as zero suit, which did help flush his muscle memory for set 2 but it also means that ally had to fight bayo 2 games fewer than he would have otherwise. also don't forget that ally was 3-0ed twice by bayonetta at eglx 2018, and one of those bayonettas was...mistake

 

[Minordeth]

This Whole Discussion On Bayonetta Proves That Nobody Can Agree On Her Matchups Even Top Level Players Cant Agree Can We All Just Have Are Opinions And Move On Smash 4 Is So Diverse In Characters And Matchups That It Is Nearly Impossible To Determine This Kind Of Stuff I'm Not Treating My Matchup Chart As Fact I Am Just Making It For Fun I Am Showing What I Think Maybe We Should Stop Discussing Matchups on Bayonetta Because Nobody Can Agree On Anything

No Wonder There Is No Offical Matchup Chart

Bruh, I had to re-read this like 5 times. You gotta drop the capitalization and add some punctuation.

But, let’s be real, this game has 58 characters. It’s got one of the largest casts ever, in any fighting game. And it’s not a team fighter either. A real, official MU chart would take forever.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Bruh, I had to re-read this like 5 times. You gotta drop the capitalization and add some punctuation.

Yeah probably should do that

But, let’s be real, this game has 58 characters. It’s got one of the largest casts ever, in any fighting game. And it’s not a team fighter either. A real, official MU chart would take forever.

That is true but still, nobody can agree on anything when it comes to matchups I have seen it firsthand

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Hey guys

This Whole Discussion On Bayonetta Proves That Nobody Can Agree On Her Matchups Even Top Level Players Cant Agree Can We All Just Have Are Opinions And Move On Smash 4 Is So Diverse In Characters And Matchups That It Is Nearly Impossible To Determine This Kind Of Stuff I'm Not Treating My Matchup Chart As Fact I Am Just Making It For Fun I Am Showing What I Think Maybe We Should Stop Discussing Matchups on Bayonetta Because Nobody Can Agree On Anything

No Wonder There Is No Offical Matchup Chart

Hey, try to use better punctuation and grammar. It’s pretty hard to read your post without it.

EDIT: Minordeth so you just gonna best me to the punch like that? Lol.

This bayo discussion is pretty interesting. Haven’t played in a while, so I have nothing to contribute.

 

[Minordeth]

Hey guys



Hey, try to use better punctuation and grammar. It’s pretty hard to read your post without it.

EDIT: Minordeth so you just gonna best me to the punch like that? Lol.

This bayo discussion is pretty interesting. Haven’t played in a while, so I have nothing to contribute.

I like to get the jump on things

Honestly, Bayo is probably my most researched/labbed character. I’d main her if I didn’t find her neutral and ground playability so incredibly awkward and stiff.

I just like that Mahvel experience in my Smash.

...

Brief Mistake analysis:

I should mention that Mistake will always do well, because his combo game is deep.
I wish I noticed the Ally influence sooner, because it goes a long way to understanding his decision making. He just isn’t playing a character with Mario’s level of playability. Watching his ZSS makes it a little more obvious, though.

For instance, he uses Heelslide like he would ZSS’ dash grab.

His skill to get a read on his opponent’s habits is also fairly well developed. Look at his sets with Thunder, for the biggest twist ending.

Where he gets into trouble is when his opponent has a better neutral, limits his damage output, and/or out damages him. Nairo is the most obvious recent example of this roadblock. The only piece Nairo was missing to handle Mistake was damage reduction. That he added some ZSS specific counterplay was a bonus.