Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Rizen]

Here's a good example of Bayo's Dtilt not being safe on shield btw.

Some potentially notable Mewtwo vs Ike sets:
Rich Brown vs SM https://ssbworld.com/watch/?v=uaYw1KYFLjg
Deathorse vs San https://ssbworld.com/watch/?v=FexaLkSU92k
Abadango vs Ryo (game 1 only, Ryo played Roy for the rest of the set) https://ssbworld.com/watch/?v=_rYPWXDtFKE
Mew2King vs Ryo https://ssbworld.com/watch/?v=lBYIkXN9cmw

Ryo and San make that MU look downright decent lol.


If I had to rank them I'd say Ryu comes right after Mewtwo and is better than Marth and Corrin. But I'd rather group those 3 together [/] because they're all good in their own ways but fall short of top tiers. Marth and Lucina are ranked as one. Ryu's not worse than Marth or Corrin. He has a big stage presence like heavyweights that lets him control spacing even without a sword. Ryu's boxing game is second to none with extremely spam-able light attacks that lead into very powerful upBs and good reach on his slower attacks to help combat zoning. Hyduken is underrated as a projectile when true; it has multiple hits, even on shield and takes up a lot of space. He also has a good burst game with side/down B specials, which help his disadvantage too.

I recently played vs Ryu and looked up Scizor vs Tsu's Ryu. I've changed my opinion on the MU from even to -1 for Link. Ryu's just too overtuned in his cqc. His approaching isn't terrible either. Link's walling doesn't match it.



People need to accept that while D-tiers can win games vs better characters they still lose the MUs. All these characters are there because they are undertuned with weaker options and forced to outplay better characters' bread and butter. This is the gap between D and C tiers. C tiers actually have B&B options like DK and Bowser's throw combos pared with good grab setups. D tier Link has a f12 extremely punishable grab, f40 bomb pulls, F12 Dtilt for setups and gets out-buttoned by 3/4ths the cast. When I say Ike, G&W and Wario should be in D-tier it's not because they're good characters but rather that D-tiers aren't either. They all have significant weaknesses and undertuned options. They are still a step above low tiers though.


Winning tournaments is another step up. It's easy enough to win 1 game; I've taken a game off Sheiks and others who ultimately beat me. Winning a set vs a bad MU, even if it's only -1 means you outplay them 2 of 3 times. Then you move on to the next bad MU. Progressing you can only lose 2 sets but have to win many more.

It's like running a race where the opponents start on opposite ends of a hill. The disadvantaged character runs uphill and the advantaged character runs downhill. A -1 MU would mean a slight incline. This is doable if you run 1 lap length, all uphill (1 game). But then you need to run 3 lap lengths (best of 3) and it gets disproportionately harder. In tournaments you're running a marathon uphill. I don't blame anyone who chooses a top tier because they want to actually win. Lower characters do hold people back.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

While I personally think Corrin-Bayo is even, people (like Ryuga) actually used arguments why Bayonetta beat Corrin before Cosmos went on a "Destroy most Bayonettas" run.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone put Mario as worse than slight disadvantage for Corrin. In general, Mario-Corrin is seen as either even or slight Corrin advantage, and in this case Frozen went with even. Nothing really out of the ordinary.

Ryu is a very interesting character. On paper, he seems worse than characters like Marth, Corrin, Mewtwo, Rosalina, and Zero Suit Samus, yet his results seem to be better than those characters. I wonder why that is?

Ryu has quite a bit of potential, his demanding learning curve is a reason why he's not seen as often. Rosa is his most problematic matchup as she can intercept him offstage and his only reliable horizontal recovery option is tatsu, Ryu also doesn't have the best options for getting rid of luma.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Here's a good example of Bayo's Dtilt not being safe on shield btw.

Ryo and San make that MU look downright decent lol.


If I had to rank them I'd say Ryu comes right after Mewtwo and is better than Marth and Corrin. But I'd rather group those 3 together [/] because they're all good in their own ways but fall short of top tiers. Marth and Lucina are ranked as one. Ryu's not worse than Marth or Corrin. He has a big stage presence like heavyweights that lets him control spacing even without a sword. Ryu's boxing game is second to none with extremely spam-able light attacks that lead into very powerful upBs and good reach on his slower attacks to help combat zoning. Hyduken is underrated as a projectile when true; it has multiple hits, even on shield and takes up a lot of space. He also has a good burst game with side/down B specials, which help his disadvantage too.

I recently played vs Ryu and looked up Scizor vs Tsu's Ryu. I've changed my opinion on the MU from even to -1 for Link. Ryu's just too overtuned in his cqc. His approaching isn't terrible either. Link's walling doesn't match it.



People need to accept that while D-tiers can win games vs better characters they still lose the MUs. All these characters are there because they are undertuned with weaker options and forced to outplay better characters' bread and butter. This is the gap between D and C tiers. C tiers actually have B&B options like DK and Bowser's throw combos pared with good grab setups. D tier Link has a f12 extremely punishable grab, f40 bomb pulls, F12 Dtilt for setups and gets out-buttoned by 3/4ths the cast. When I say Ike, G&W and Wario should be in D-tier it's not because they're good characters but rather that D-tiers aren't either. They all have significant weaknesses and undertuned options. They are still a step above low tiers though.


Winning tournaments is another step up. It's easy enough to win 1 game; I've taken a game off Sheiks and others who ultimately beat me. Winning a set vs a bad MU, even if it's only -1 means you outplay them 2 of 3 times. Then you move on to the next bad MU. Progressing you can only lose 2 sets but have to win many more.

It's like running a race where the opponents start on opposite ends of a hill. The disadvantaged character runs uphill and the advantaged character runs downhill. A -1 MU would mean a slight incline. This is doable if you run 1 lap length, all uphill (1 game). But then you need to run 3 lap lengths (best of 3) and it gets disproportionately harder. In tournaments you're running a marathon uphill. I don't blame anyone who chooses a top tier because they want to actually win. Lower characters do hold people back.

Wouldn’t D tier mean something like balanced strengths and weaknesses?

 

[MERPIS]

Here's a good example of Bayo's Dtilt not being safe on shield btw.

Actually netta pulled her shield up and got punished for that, not the dtilt, I mean it's probably unsafe from things like OOS options like a nair, but the point still stands.

 

[The_Bookworm]

MARCH DATA WRITE-UP

Monthly character movements

Bayonetta +1.9%
Ryu +0.6%
Fox +0.5%
Diddy Kong +0.3%
Sonic +0.1%
Mario +0.1%
Zero Suit Samus +0.1%
Peach +0.1%
Captain Falcon +0.1%
Wario +0.1%
Mewtwo = 3.2%
Corrin = 2.3%
Luigi = 1.7%
Toon Link = 1.4%
Shulk = 0.8%
Rosalina & Luma -0.1%
Lucina -0.1%
Greninja -0.1%
Mega Man -0.1%
Mr. Game & Watch -0.1%
Pikachu -0.1%
Marth -0.1%
Ness -0.2%
R.O.B. -0.2%
Donkey Kong -0.2%
Ike -0.3%
Sheik -0.3%
Meta Knight -0.3%
Other -0.3%
Duck Hunt -0.4%
Samus -0.4%
Cloud -1.0%

I'll be covering all the major changes near the start of May since Phase 7 ends this month. There's not a whole lot that's gone down this particular month, but the short of March's movements:

-Bayonetta is sitting at 11.7%.

-Cloud declined to 4th by a reasonable margin.

-Fox has a case for 5th best in the game at this point.

-A number of characters have pretty woefully declined in spite of their tiering position. Villager, Donkey Kong, Olimar, Bowser, and Lucario appear to suffer the most.

-Ryu has climbed into the top 10 by a good amount.

-Duck Hunt remains a viable pick for Upper Tier at this point, albeit he declined a few spots in March.

-Ness has recovered quite a bit as of late and sits in the upper tier range.

-Lucina + Marth collectively puts Marth as part of a Top 12 that has a large gap to the 13th best, data wise (Corrin.)

-Bowser Jr. has had an okay Phase, probably his best in recent memory. That's not saying much, but still.

Spoiler: Full Results, March 2018

Bayonetta: 587.5
Sheik: 359.5
Diddy Kong: 353.5
Cloud: 321
Fox: 300.75
Sonic: 242
Mario: 232
Ryu: 230.5
Zero Suit Samus: 227
Rosalina & Luma: 195.5
Mewtwo: 161.25
Corrin: 118.25
Marth: 107.5
Meta Knight: 107
Pikachu: 97
Peach: 92.5
Luigi: 83.5
Captain Falcon: 82.5
Ness: 74
Toon Link: 70
Greninja: 65
Duck Hunt: 63
Lucina: 53
Mega Man: 52.5
Wario: 48
Samus: 47.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 47
R.O.B.: 43.75
Shulk: 42.5
Donkey Kong: 41.5
Ike: 41
Lucario: 39.5
Yoshi: 36.5
Villager: 36
Olimar: 35.5
Pac-Man: 35
Bowser: 34
Link: 29
Little Mac: 28
Lucas: 25
Roy: 20.75
Charizard: 18
Wii Fit Trainer: 16
Zelda: 15
Pit: 15
Robin: 14
Palutena: 10
Falco: 10
Bowser Jr.: 8
Jigglypuff: 7
Dr. Mario: 6.5
Ganondorf: 4
King Dedede: 1
Kirby: 1
Mii Brawler: 1
Mii Gunner: 1

Results Thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Methodology: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jks0EtmeNemKsm2rXzYf8RB3D43-Ru23ypx_DOnQPDY/edit?usp=sharing

Previous Month: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...insight-analysis.452108/page-82#post-21970285

This seems accurate to my analysis.
It is cool to see Ryu, Link, and Ganon rise up. Cloud's drop is kinda sad, but expected.

 

[Rizen]

Actually netta pulled her shield up and got punished for that, not the dtilt, I mean it's probably unsafe from things like OOS options like a nair, but the point still stands.

CF dash grabber her. That would have caught every option she had. Shield's the fastest thing she could do and got punished.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Wouldn’t D tier mean something like balanced strengths and weaknesses?

D tier means slightly below average.

 

[The_Bookworm]

D tier means slightly below average.

It ranges from average to slightly below average.

 

[Minordeth]

Rizen - I can’t buy Ryu as better than Marth or Corrin. And he’s just nowhere near Mewtwo. At a basic level, Ryu just commits harder to get in. He is functional Ganon. He also gets downright murdered by Rosa. I used to think @Emblem Lord was going hard on the hyperbole with Rosa dominance, but the more I learn about it, the more inclined I am to buy it. Watching Tyroy’s C-level Rosa almost wreck Darkshad’s day when his Bayo was struggling was disgusting.

MERPIS - Mewtwo B-reverse Confusion off the ledge opens up some really gross gimping attempts, especially with the wide swing of Bair.

Nah - I’ve kind of always thought Corrin can struggle with rushdown characters. I wouldn’t be surprised if Falcon ends up being a disadvantaged MU.
She does beat Bayo, though. For funsies: it seemed Ryuga changed his tune and posted on Twitter a bit back that Corrin wins it now. Go figure.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Rizen - I can’t buy Ryu as better than Marth or Corrin. And he’s just nowhere near Mewtwo. At a basic level, Ryu just commits harder to get in. He is functional Ganon. He also gets downright murdered by Rosa. I used to think @Emblem Lord was going hard on the hyperbole with Rosa dominance, but the more I learn about it, the more inclined I am to buy it. Watching Tyroy’s C-level Rosa almost wreck Darkshad’s day when his Bayo was struggling was disgusting.

MERPIS - Mewtwo B-reverse Confusion off the ledge opens up some really gross gimping attempts, especially with the wide swing of Bair.

Nah - I’ve kind of always thought Corrin can struggle with rushdown characters. I wouldn’t be surprised if Falcon ends up being a disadvantaged MU.
She does beat Bayo, though. For funsies: it seemed Ryuga changed his tune and posted on Twitter a bit back that Corrin wins it now. Go figure.

Rosa, in my opinion, has the most dominate matchup spread in the game and is the hardest matchup for a large portion of the cast. She even walls out some of the higher ranked characters like Luigi and Ness. The superheavies not only get destroyed by Bayo, but arguably loses even more badly to Rosa.

Edit: She does have a few notable losing matchups, especially within the top tier, but even then none of them are no worse than -1 (except for maybe Cloud, but he has decreased in interest lately at top level play).

 

[|RK|]

Bayo's dtilt is safe at range, but it doesn't confirm well there. It's unsafe close up, but confirms super well.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Rosa, in my opinion, has the most dominate matchup spread in the game and is the hardest matchup for a large portion of the cast. She even walls out some of the higher ranked characters like Luigi and Ness. The superheavies not only get destroyed by Bayo, but arguably loses even more badly to Rosa.

Edit: She does have a few notable losing matchups, especially within the top tier, but even then none of them are no worse than -1 (except for maybe Cloud, but he has decreased in interest lately at top level play).

Rosa definitely oppresses a large amount of the cast, you have to play a specific way against her.

 

[MERPIS]

MERPIS - Mewtwo B-reverse Confusion off the ledge opens up some really gross gimping attempts, especially with the wide swing of Bair.

Yet another unexplored mewtwo thing I see
Dude Mewtwo's like top 5 in theory he's ridiculous

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Tyroy’s C-level

Kind of an opinion, isn't it?

 

[Rizen]

Rosa, in my opinion, has the most dominate matchup spread in the game and is the hardest matchup for a large portion of the cast. She even walls out some of the higher ranked characters like Luigi and Ness. The superheavies not only get destroyed by Bayo, but arguably loses even more badly to Rosa.

Edit: She does have a few notable losing matchups, especially within the top tier, but even then none of them are no worse than -1 (except for maybe Cloud, but he has decreased in interest lately at top level play).

Rosa does really well against a certain type of character, like DK, who struggle vs other strong jugglers like ZSS and Bayo too. Cloud can be terrible for characters who struggle with disjoints, Sheik's the worst for characters like Link who zone but get smothered in CQC. Rosa can be a dominate force for sure but she's not the only one.
Does Diddy destroy anyone? IDK who he'd be the worst for.

 

[MERPIS]

Kind of an opinion, isn't it?

Dude can I call you the "opinions guy" from now on?

 

[Browny]

It's time for my bi-annual reminder to people that Diddy's dtilt - usmash is NOT a kill confirm on mewtwo at any %, at any rage on flat stage. It only applies when on a platform with a stale dtilt.

It makes me sad that Smash 4 will go to the end of its lifespan, and such a matchup defining thing will never be implemented because its too hard*

*say the Mewtwo mains who spend hours practicing ledge cancelled teleports every week for years

sigh

 

[MERPIS]

It's time for my bi-annual reminder to people that Diddy's dtilt - usmash is NOT a kill confirm on mewtwo at any %, at any rage on flat stage. It only applies when on a platform with a stale dtilt.

It makes me sad that Smash 4 will go to the end of its lifespan, and such a matchup defining thing will never be implemented because its too hard*

*say the Mewtwo mains who spend hours practicing ledge cancelled teleports every week for years

sigh

Dude smash 4 is possibly the most stable in the series, it won't die off, if BRAWL of all games could survive meta knight and tripping long enough to get a stable matchup chart and such made up for it then I think smash 4 will be fine, despite netta killing it.

If it DOES die off before an actual accurate tier list is made or before characters get figured out, then smash switch better be god like.

 

[Nah]

While I personally think Corrin-Bayo is even, people (like Ryuga) actually used arguments why Bayonetta beat Corrin before Cosmos went on a "Destroy most Bayonettas" run.

Those arguments being....?

I don't think I've ever seen anyone put Mario as worse than slight disadvantage for Corrin. In general, Mario-Corrin is seen as either even or slight Corrin advantage, and in this case Frozen went with even. Nothing really out of the ordinary.

That's not really how I remember it. Pretty sure that there was or is the sentiment that he basically just loses to swords too.

But I could just be misremembering things.


....oh, and:

What top tiers do these characters beat?
()

just in case anyone was wondering, Robin beats no top tier character. The best she can say is "I go even with Sonic* and Ryu" (the latter's not really a top tier anyway). Has an unfavorable MU with all the rest.

*=provided you're not on Final Destination

 

[ぱみゅ]

Actually netta pulled her shield up and got punished for that, not the dtilt, I mean it's probably unsafe from things like OOS options like a nair, but the point still stands.

Frame advance showed me that she got grabbed at the 3rd frame of her shield, meaning she only had 2 frames to act. Her fastest move on the ground is Frame 4 (Witch Twist), her rolls all have more grab vulnerability than normal.
She basically had no option against that grab.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

What top tiers do these characters beat?
()

Time to post in this thread again i guess. I wouldnt say shulk beats any top tier, but his best top tier matchup is easily cloud due to his ability to contest cloud’s range and mobility even in limit. Unfortunately being above cloud is still a huge risk for shulk which leaves the matchup at +1 cloud. Both characters advantage states in the matchup are bonkers, however.

 

[MERPIS]

Frame advance showed me that she got grabbed at the 3rd frame of her shield, meaning she only had 2 frames to act. Her fastest move on the ground is Frame 4 (Witch Twist), her rolls all have more grab vulnerability than normal.
She basically had no option against that grab.

So the real way to beat a netta is just "punish her lol"

 

[The_Bookworm]

So the real way to beat a netta is just "punish her lol"

Bayo does have a few noticeable punish windows. The fact that she is both light and have a large frame amplifies this.

 

[AEMehr]

Update: Switchfest has been promoted to an A tier event.

PGR'ed Players
Nairo
MKLeo
Tweek
Larry Lurr
VoiD
Abadango
komorikiri
Cosmos
Samsora
Shuton
Raito
Charliedaking
falln
Kameme
Light


Notable Players
Xzax
Dynamo
Candy
pu55yking

There is a notable amount of Cloud and Fox players in attendance.

PKing plays more Meta Knight than Mac recently, I've seen.

Also, ew, so much for wanting to go to Switchfest lol.

 

[The_Bookworm]

PKing plays more Meta Knight than Mac recently, I've seen.

Also, ew, so much for wanting to go to Switchfest lol.

Why so?

[Edit: Nice Gunner btw]

 

[Iridium]

Why so?

[Edit: Nice Gunner btw]

He is probably the best Little Mac from the U.S. at this point, and definitely the best from SoCal, so I think that explains. As for AEMehr 's point, I wonder if he might be doing what AC is doing with Meta Knight.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

PKing plays more Meta Knight than Mac recently, I've seen.

Also, ew, so much for wanting to go to Switchfest lol.

There's quite a few PGRd players attending switchfest, I wonder what upsets we can expect to happen.

 

[The_Bookworm]

He is probably the best Little Mac from the U.S. at this point, and definitely the best from SoCal, so I think that explains. As for AEMehr 's point, I wonder if he might be doing what AC is doing with Meta Knight.

I was talking about his lost for interest for attending Switchfest. Pking still solo mains Mac so there is really nothing to be worried about.

 

[Iridium]

There's quite a few PGRd players attending switchfest, I wonder what upsets we can expect to happen.

Honestly, Leo and Nairo are most likely going to win, but seeing VoiD, Komorikiri or Shuton win would be nice, but unlikely unfortunately.

 

[Iridium]

I was talking about his lost for interest for attending Switchfest. Pking still solo mains Mac so there is really nothing to be worried about.

Oh, I did not know that. What other notable players are going though?

Edit: Sorry for the accidental double-post.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Update: a new C tier appeared this weekend, coming tomorrow: The Scarlet Classic IV.

Also, GOML 2018 is once again an A tier event, although it's pre-rating is still B tier just for caution.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Honestly, Leo and Nairo are most likely going to win, but seeing VoiD, Komorikiri or Shuton win would be nice, but unlikely unfortunately.

The outcome could surprise us, maybe Shuton might take this tourney. Void and komo have a good chance as well.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The outcome could surprise us, maybe Shuton might take this tourney. Void and komo have a good chance as well.

I am just hoping Shuton gets at least top 16. Olimar is looking a little down lately.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I am just hoping Shuton gets at least top 16. Olimar is looking a little down lately.

Follow other scenes, man.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Follow other scenes, man.

Kinda got the notion of that after seeing Das Koopa's chart.

 

[The-Technique]

I... don’t remember seeing a whole lot of top Mewtwo/Ike. I guess theoretically that MU could really suck. Mewtwo is kind of an anti-swordie swordie.

It's annoying but doable for Ike. Mewtwo mainly converts off of d-tilt and dash attack. Failing to land these moves, he has trouble getting things started on Ike. A few notes I compiled in my experience:

-Mewtwo's has very few safe landing options on Ike except his slow, laggy command grab and retreating f-air. As Ike you can drop shield and jab most of the time, or depending on the move you can even drop shield and d-tilt for a meaty punish.

-Mewtwo's d-tilt isn't safe unless the tip is landing on Ike's shield where he can't even convert anything from it anyway. Drop shield and jab.

-Grab combos are really easy to land on Mewtwo, and because Mewtwo's love airdodging its easy to frame trap them into an u-air KO.

-Mewtwo has a hard time escaping the ledge. A lot of the time they'll try to hit you from below the ledge with a rising aerial or stall with wall jumps, but short hop f-air is a big F-U to most of it. And forget about using normal getup unless you want to give Ike a free conversion or stock.

-Mewtwo hates shield pressure, both from the ground and air. If Ike is tapping him with d-tilt and jab he's basically in a fighting game-esque blockstring.

-Shadow Ball is unsafe close up, uncharged Shadow Ball especially. Charged Shadow Ball demands more respect, but if you're close enough you can jab Mewtwo out of it during the startup frames. Ike's decent dash to shield helps a lot for dealing with his Shadow Ball camping.

Time to post in this thread again i guess. I wouldnt say shulk beats any top tier, but his best top tier matchup is easily cloud due to his ability to contest cloud’s range and mobility even in limit. Unfortunately being above cloud is still a huge risk for shulk which leaves the matchup at +1 cloud. Both characters advantage states in the matchup are bonkers, however.

Isn't Cloud generally considered even to slight disadvantage to Shulks? Plus they still have a really good record in bracket vs top Clouds (5-1 IIRC), not even counting Kome who slays Japanese Clouds regularly.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

It's annoying but doable for Ike. Mewtwo mainly converts off of d-tilt and dash attack. Failing to land these moves, he has trouble getting things started on Ike. A few notes I compiled in my experience:

-Mewtwo's has very few safe landing options on Ike except his slow, laggy command grab and retreating f-air. As Ike you can drop shield and jab most of the time, or depending on the move you can even drop shield and d-tilt for a meaty punish.

-Mewtwo's d-tilt isn't safe unless the tip is landing on Ike's shield where he can't even convert anything from it anyway. Drop shield and jab.

-Grab combos are really easy to land on Mewtwo, and because Mewtwo's love airdodging its easy to frame trap them into an u-air KO.

-Mewtwo has a hard time escaping the ledge. A lot of the time they'll try to hit you from below the ledge with a rising aerial or stall with wall jumps, but short hop f-air is a big F-U to most of it. And forget about using normal getup unless you want to give Ike a free conversion or stock.

-Mewtwo hates shield pressure, both from the ground and air. If Ike is tapping him with d-tilt and jab he's basically in a fighting game-esque blockstring.

-Shadow Ball is unsafe close up, uncharged Shadow Ball especially. Charged Shadow Ball demands more respect, but if you're close enough you can jab Mewtwo out of it during the startup frames. Ike's decent dash to shield helps a lot for dealing with his Shadow Ball camping.



Isn't Cloud generally considered even to slight disadvantage to Shulks? Plus they still have a really good record in bracket vs top Clouds (5-1 IIRC), not even counting Kome who slays Japanese Clouds regularly.

General consensus among shulk mains is usually even to +1 cloud, but cloud mains think its still free for some reason

 

[The_Bookworm]

Mason Versus: Mr. E

1st: Mistake
2nd: WaDi
3rd: 6WX
4th: Dabuz
5th: Mr. E
5th: Cosmos
7th: Promaelia
7th: Puppeh
9th: Iota
9th: Dexter
9th: SciFire
9th: JeBB
13th: Remzi
13th: Lemon
13th: Chrome Kingfisher
13th: Archy

6WX defeated Mr. E, Cosmos, and Dabuz to make his way here. He is trying his best to hold his position despite his lack of attendance.

 

[J0eyboi]

What top tiers do these characters beat?
()

So I guess I should actually correct myself on this. All the D-tiers do not, in fact, beat at least 1 top-tier (though you can always find someone who thinks they do) and Ike could probably be D-tier.

While I personally think Corrin-Bayo is even, people (like Ryuga) actually used arguments why Bayonetta beat Corrin before Cosmos went on a "Destroy most Bayonettas" run.

I'm going to assume you meant "people actually used arguments why Corrin beats Bayo", given what you were replying to here.

People need to accept that while D-tiers can win games vs better characters they still lose the MUs. All these characters are there because they are undertuned with weaker options and forced to outplay better characters' bread and butter. This is the gap between D and C tiers. C tiers actually have B&B options like DK and Bowser's throw combos pared with good grab setups. D tier Link has a f12 extremely punishable grab, f40 bomb pulls, F12 Dtilt for setups and gets out-buttoned by 3/4ths the cast. When I say Ike, G&W and Wario should be in D-tier it's not because they're good characters but rather that D-tiers aren't either. They all have significant weaknesses and undertuned options. They are still a step above low tiers though.

There's an argument for every E-tier being D-tier. In fact, near the beginning of this thread, Shaya posted this:

8+:
8:
7:
6:
5:
4:
3:
2:
1: (technically is Jigglypuff)

In which the majority of E-tier is in the same tier as the D-tiers, and according to Shaya, this list is more mathematically accurate, so congratulations, Ike, Wario, and G&W are mid-tiers now.

Speaking of E-tiers, let's talk about Palutena. Palutena is 11th worst on this tier list, and outside of her bad results, I can't think of a single reason why. What does Palu struggle to do that warrants her being that low?

 

[AEMehr]

Why so?

[Edit: Nice Gunner btw]

Match Ups? He does use Mac still obviously, but the little I've seen are usually Meta Knight matches. Mac is definitely his strong character though.

And thanks, it helps to be pretty good at mus people pretend to not exist.

He is probably the best Little Mac from the U.S. at this point, and definitely the best from SoCal, so I think that explains. As for AEMehr 's point, I wonder if he might be doing what AC is doing with Meta Knight.

You mean main him? Because AC uses Meta Knight a whole lot more than his other characters lol.

There's quite a few PGRd players attending switchfest, I wonder what upsets we can expect to happen.

None from me! I'm not dealing with Fox haven, even though I technically already live there.