Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TDK]

I really would never pin Ixis to take sets off of top 20 players, honestly, and Glutonny has done that multiple times.

Ixis > ESAM 🔴 ESAM is double eliminated by Ixis and gets 49th

— PGstats.com (@pgstats) July 15, 2017

 

[Das Koopa]

damnit lol

 

[FeelMeUp]

The lowest ranked player in top 8 is KEN, PGR #16
8 unique characters that also fills out most of our tier list's top 10s.
Diddy, Bayo, Cloud, Fox, Sonic, Rosa, Sheik, ZSS.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Can you guys do me a favor and redpill me on Sonic and why he isn't the best character in the game?

I'm by no means a top player, I'm not even a good player. I'm just a random scrub. I thought Sonic was conceivably the best before EVO and seeing EVO has really made me double down on why I think his neutral is just absolutely oppressive. It isn't just me that struggles vs the character obviously, I've been seeing a lot of great players like Zenyou and Anti get wrecked by him too and I honestly have no idea what the answer is. I know I'm bad enough to be wrong about this, I'm just looking for answers as to why I'm wrong.

What are Sonic's weaknesses?

 

[soniczx123]

Can you guys do me a favor and redpill me on Sonic and why he isn't the best character in the game?

I'm by no means a top player, I'm not even a good player. I'm just a random scrub. I thought Sonic was conceivably the best before EVO and seeing EVO has really made me double down on why I think his neutral is just absolutely oppressive. It isn't just me that struggles vs the character obviously, I've been seeing a lot of great players like Zenyou and Anti get wrecked by him too and I honestly have no idea what the answer is. I know I'm bad enough to be wrong about this, I'm just looking for answers as to why I'm wrong.

What are Sonic's weaknesses?

Zenyou plays Mario in his worst MU and Sonic's best top tier MU on top of it being Komo, being known to be very defensive and patient (which Mario has a really hard time dealing with) and AnTi in general has a hard time vs the character (losing to Aperture with both Cloud and ZSS at Nairo Saga for example)

Sonic has plenty of weaknesses and hard MUs which makes him not the best.

-Bad landing options
-Commits hard to his best neutral options
-Can have a hard time closing out stocks
-Gets punished hard if he relaxes on his mixup game for a little bit (at top level, that is)
-Hard MUs vs DLC (loses to Cloud, maybe even Bayo and rough even with Corrin) along with other top tiers (like Fox and ZSS) giving him a run for his money.
-Besides KEN recently, he hasn't really done much in terms of placements, getting top 16 tops at most tournaments until KEN started travelling. All the other top tiers have way better results than what he has.

 

[Goombo]

"Take away my mains best player and his results don't look that impressive anymore"

Favorite argument of every player trying to talk down their top tier main ever.


... except it's a bad argument.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

EVO 2017 Top 8

Winners
ZeRovs Tweek
Salemvs Larry Lurr

Losers
VoiDvs Nairo
Dabuzvs KEN

In the spoiler I will have who the PGR members that did not make Top 8 lost to

Spoiler: PGR EVO Losses

FOWlost to Edgeand Antiand placed 33rd
JKlost to fallnand KEN and placed 9th
Edgelost to Nairoand VoiDand placed 25th
Wadi lost to Falseand Abadangoand placed 13th
AClost to LingLingand Shareand placed 129th
Nietonolost to Mr.Eand Mr.Rand placed 33rd
NAKATlost to Salemand Limaand placed 13th
Mannylost to Dabuzand JKand placed 13th
Myranlost to Senseand Charliedakingand placed 65th
Rich Brownlost to Raitoand VoiDand placed 49th
Earthlost to Wadiand Xzaxand placed 65th
Raitolost to KENand Abadangoand placed 17th
Mr.Elost to Zeroand Limaand placed 33rd
MVDlost to Wrathand Abadangoand placed 33rd
fallnlost to Salemand Abadangoand placed 25th
Kamemelost to Domand Eonand placed 65th
Tsulost to Larry Lurrand Mr.Rand placed 25th
Elegantlost to Larry Lurrand Mannyand placed 17th
Samsoralost to Zenyouand Wadiand placed 33rd
9Blost to Mannyand Wadiand placed 25th
Locuslost to Nakatand JKand placed 25th
Antilost to KENand Captain Zackand placed 25th
Zinotolost to Nairoand JKand placed 17th
Kiriharalost to Mistakeand TLTCand placed 65th
ESAMgot double eliminated by IxisNaugusand placed 49th
Ranailost to Zeroand Wadiand placed 17th
Fatalitylost to Mistakeand 9Band placed 33rd
Abadangolost to Nakatand Nairoand placed 9th
Mr.Rlost to Elegantand Komorikiriand placed 17th
Captain Zacklost to Wonderbreadand Nakatand placed 17th
Allylost to Chansuand MVDand placed 49th
MKLeolost to Falseand MuteAceand placed 65th

 

[blackghost]

Bayonetta has to be one of the ai need at evo this year. Most of the well known bayo players did very well.
Side b
Note abadongo bayo still looks very iffy at best

 

[PK Bash]

"Take away my mains best player and his results don't look that impressive anymore"

Favorite argument of every player trying to talk down their top tier main ever.


... except it's a bad argument.

I'm all for people calling out bad logic but to be fair, everything else in that post is a perfectly legitimate argument.
Not aimed at you specifically but just making sure people don't dismiss the rest of the post.
--
I'm not going to go off on one again as to why I think Sonic is not a top tier character and barely scrapes top ten but worth reminding people his neutral as a whole is overrated. Strong Sonics make it look a hell of a lot better than it actually is by virtue of yomi and a snowball effect.
When you have players like KEN who are really ****ing good at the game, Sonic's neutral can look oppressive. That's because KEN is consistently a step ahead and able to mitigate the flaws of Sonic's neutral while maximising the advantages of it. Yes OK you can say that about any character with an elite player behind them, but it's very apparent with Sonic because his neutral does not give him any margin for error if the opponent knows the matchup, unlike the likes of Sheik, Diddy, et al. The actual top tier characters. That's not a coincidence.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

 

[Nu~]

This is probably gonna be really random, but there's a realization that just recently came to me.

Pac-Man's normals are literally incongruent with his character physics.


I don't know what possessed sakurai to give discount Mario aerials to a char with some of the highest SH and FH air times in the game. Rosa's aerial mobility is pretty comparable to Pac's, but the reason why she rules in the air is because her aerials are big and last forever (plus Luma).


But what really sucks is that you still see every single Pacman main playing 80% of the nuetral in the air because his grounded normals are just that subpar. Ftilt has bad range and is unsafe on shield and even hit at low percentages, dtilt is unsafe on most char's shield's, jab is F4 but has no disjoint, no range, and the combo deals little damage...I guess utilt is a decent anti air because of its disjoint and invicincibility, but it's horizontal hitbox makes me sad.

You can't be this slow on the ground with tilts that have a range/speed/damage ratio that clumsy.

Geez, I understand that Pacman's tools change the battlefield itself, but those tools have far too much counterplay to justify making the (Pac) man behind the architecture useless.

 

[Lord Dio]

EVO 2017 Top 8

Winners
ZeRovs Tweek
Salemvs Larry Lurr

Losers
VoiDvs Nairo
Dabuzvs KEN

In the spoiler I will have who the PGR members that did not make Top 8 lost to

Spoiler: PGR EVO Losses

FOWlost to Edgeand Antiand placed 33rd
JKlost to fallnand KEN and placed 9th
Edgelost to Nairoand VoiDand placed 25th
Wadi lost to Falseand Abadangoand placed 13th
AClost to LingLingand Shareand placed 129th
Nietonolost to Mr.Eand Mr.Rand placed 33rd
NAKATlost to Salemand Limaand placed 13th
Mannylost to Dabuzand JKand placed 13th
Myranlost to Senseand Charliedakingand placed 65th
Rich Brownlost to Raitoand VoiDand placed 49th
Earthlost to Wadiand Xzaxand placed 65th
Raitolost to KENand Abadangoand placed 17th
Mr.Elost to Zeroand Limaand placed 33rd
MVDlost to Wrathand Abadangoand placed 33rd
fallnlost to Salemand Abadangoand placed 25th
Kamemelost to Domand Eonand placed 65th
Tsulost to Larry Lurrand Mr.Rand placed 25th
Elegantlost to Larry Lurrand Mannyand placed 17th
Samsoralost to Zenyouand Wadiand placed 33rd
9Blost to Mannyand Wadiand placed 25th
Locuslost to Nakatand JKand placed 25th
Antilost to KENand Captain Zackand placed 25th
Zinotolost to Nairoand JKand placed 17th
Kiriharalost to Mistakeand TLTCand placed 65th
ESAMgot double eliminated by IxisNaugusand placed 49th
Ranailost to Zeroand Wadiand placed 17th
Fatalitylost to Mistakeand 9Band placed 33rd
Abadangolost to Nakatand Nairoand placed 9th
Mr.Rlost to Elegantand Komorikiriand placed 17th
Captain Zacklost to Wonderbreadand Nakatand placed 17th
Allylost to Chansuand MVDand placed 49th
MKLeolost to Falseand MuteAceand placed 65th

Missing Komo's placement and losses. Not sure if anyone else is missing, komo's just the first oen I thought to look for and found missing.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Missing Komo's placement and losses. Not sure if anyone else is missing, komo's just the first oen I thought to look for and found missing.

Lost to Dabuz and Void, got 13th

 

[|RK|]

I think "who is the best Bayonetta" is a question that is open again. For the past three S-tiers... I think it has been Salem.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Defitenly Salem by this point.

 

[TDK]

EVO 2017 (1508 Entrants) (Vegas)

1st: Salem
2nd: ZeRo
3rd: Larry Lurr
4th: Tweek
5th: Nairo
5th: KEN
7th: VoiD
7th: Dabuz
9th: False
9th: Lima
9th: Abadango
9th: JK
13th: NAKAT
13th: Komorikiri
13th: WaDi
13th: Static Manny
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Mr. R
17th: Wrath
17th: Mistake
17th: Raito
17th: Ranai
17th: Elegant
17th: Zinoto
25th: Falln
25th: Tsu-
25th: Ling Ling
25th: Xzax
25th: 9B
25th: Locus
25th: ANTi
25th: Edge

Spoiler: rest of top 64

33rd: MVD
33rd: IxisNagus
33rd: Chanshu
33rd: Tyroy
33rd: Mr. E
33rd: Konga
33rd: FOW
33rd: Luhtie
33rd: TLTC
33rd: Zenyou
33rd: Samsora
33rd: Fatality
33rd: Eon
33rd: Charliedaking
33rd: Cosmos
33rd: Nietono
49th: Seagull Joe
49th: Pugwest
49th: Z
49th: Rich Brown
49th: FILIP
49th: Day
49th: 8BitMan
49th: Ri-Ma
49th: Mumei/Uramashi
49th: Mute Ace
49th: Ally
49th: K9Sbruce
49th: Suinoko
49th: Xaltis
49th: Ryuga
49th: ESAM

PGR-ranked 65th: MKLeo , Kirihara , Kameme
PGR-ranked sub-65th: AC

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Bayonetta won a supermajor

 

[|RK|]

Sorry, I was silly with this "question" nonsense.

Salem is the best Bayonetta.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think "who is the best Bayonetta" is a question that is open again.

At this point in time, I'm not sure if I would call it an open question.

 

[ARISTOS]

Rev up those "Ban Bayonetta campaigns".

You're gonna be seeing a lot of them

 

[PK Gaming]

Bayonetta won a supermajor

And it was Evo

Pretty fitting, for a character like her

Everything's gotta be over the top

 

[Ilikebugs]

Bayo has no results

 

[FeelMeUp]

aight relax
bayo's a lot better in 2/3 than she is in 3/5
keep in mind how difficult it is to consistently take games over her when you(potentially) only have 4 stocks total

that aside, salem's still a god and is still one of the only people that can consistently go toe to toe with ZeRo
congrats to him making a hard EVO run like this.

 

[Rizen]

I said it once, I said it a dozen times: Bayo is easily top 3 and Bayo, Cloud and Diddy are all reasonable picks for #1. She has results and has had them for a long time. My thoughts on Bayo remain:

I don't hate or think she needs to be banned or have rules made against her but do find her annoying. I think the character design is poor and over-tuned. She has so many things going for her. Bullet arts that can't be reflected and can extend most of her attacks. Other attacks with variable commitment like Fair having optional hits. Taunts don't matter but the whole point of taunting is to make yourself vulnerable as a middle finger to the opponent; they shouldn't be cancelable. A supposed weakness in slow startup largely negated by a frame 4 upB that is her key combo starter and doesn't cause freefall. Supposedly bad dodges but with bat within making her spot/air dodge effectively start frame 1. A combo starting/extending sideB that can be used more than once in the air along with witch twist. Impressive hitbubbles on most of her attacks and specials that are even hard for a sword to challenge (upB beats Link's Dair). UpB with set BKB on the initial hit pared with rage and her unique counter for easy single hits. Witch time, the best counter in the game that can slow opponents from projectiles hitting with an AOE effect. This means lingering hitbubbles like bombs, crash bomber and bananas are dangerous to use against WTime but safe against every other counter if spaced a few character lengths away. This also endangers Zairs and other disjointed 'counter-safe' pokes. WTime allows any attacks including combo starters or your choice of smashes or spikes, unlike other counters which are mainly KO style single hits. A ladder combo factoring in WTime and all the crazy up/side B stuff. Things like the above mentioned Fair, bullet arts, upB hitboxes, dunking Dair and leggy Bair/Nair paired with possible the best recovery in the game. Dair like that using Sheik and you won't come back up. A kill Fthrow so you have to respect her grab at high %s, unlike Fox, for example. Shield cancel Bullet climax for almost no risk.

Many characters break one or maybe 2 character conventions but Bayo has so many things going for her. Even if you nerfed witch time, arguably her best move, to obscurity she'd still be top tier. She's an extremely oppressive, low risk/high reward character without a real weakness. I mean she's no Brawl top tier but still very tiring to play around because the versatility of how she can abuse you and escape abuse herself. IMO she has a ton of potential yet to be seen.

 

[Onua]

A solo Palutena player got 33rd at EVO
This is awesome

 

[TDK]

It wasn't like TLTC had an easy bracket, either - he beat Kirihara to get there.

 

[KakuCP9]

I for one welcome our new lady and savior. The way only this could be made worse better is if Salem was sponsored by team yp instead of Fatality.

 

[Onua]

I still stand by the idea that Palutena is heavily underrated and her total lack of a playerbase hurts her really hard.
TLTC did work and showed she can do well at a super major.

 

[blackghost]

Id like to personally thank fatality for providing motivation to Salem to win this. Also bayo had the overall best results (not just victory at evo). Incredible tournnent for her and great run from Salem to win.

Here we go again with the ban bayo people....

 

[Rizen]

Can we please wait until someone says to ban Bayo before complaining about people wanting to ban Bayo?

 

[Iron Kraken]

One reason I reallllly wanted Salem to win (other than the fact that Salem is a cool dude who puts in work and deserved a chance to shine) is that I'm sooooo tired of the people who think that results are the only thing that should count when trying to judge who the best characters are. I've been saying Bayo is easily #1 in the game since shortly after her release. You could just see the raw tools and what she had the potential to do. I know some people have a hard time accepting the fact that the best character doesn't have the best neutral, but you don't need that when you have the freest of free recoveries and can kill at any %, among other incredible tools.

No way in the world is Bayo so overpowered that she needs to be banned. (Although I would nerf her in a Switch patch, just as I would nerf some of the other top tiers a little and buff some of the bottom tiers). But going forward I really hope people just accept that she is the best character in the game. Just face it already.

Lima could have made top 8. Abadango (a Bayo main now) could have made top 8. Captain Zack could have made top 8. JK could have made top 8. Mistake could have made top 8. Among others.

Players that picked up Bayo are ascending throughout the world.

Salem just won EVO.

Diddy is not equally good just because he has a better neutral and ZeRo plays him.

Bayo is the best. Just accept it.

 

[Y2Kay]

May the Salem Witch trials begin

 

[ARGHETH]

One reason I reallllly wanted Salem to win (other than the fact that Salem is a cool dude who puts in work and deserved a chance to shine) is that I'm sooooo tired of the people who think that results are the only thing that should count when trying to judge who the best characters are. I've been saying Bayo is easily #1 in the game since shortly after her release. You could just see the raw tools and what she had the potential to do. I know some people have a hard time accepting the fact that the best character doesn't have the best neutral, but you don't need that when you have the freest of free recoveries and can kill at any %, among other incredible tools.

No way in the world is Bayo so overpowered that she needs to be banned. (Although I would nerf her in a Switch patch, just as I would nerf some of the other top tiers a little and buff some of the bottom tiers). But going forward I really hope people just accept that she is the best character in the game. Just face it already.

Lima could have made top 8. Abadango (a Bayo main now) could have made top 8. Captain Zack could have made top 8. Mistake could have made top 8. Among others.

Players that picked up Bayo are ascending throughout the world.

Salem just won EVO.

Diddy is not equally good just because he has a better neutral and ZeRo plays him.

Bayo is the best. Just accept it.

Jesus Christ, Bayo wins one thing, and suddenly she's best in the game no question, "just accept it". She has a very good argument for being best in the game which got better this tournament, yes, but seriously, there's also good arguments for other characters being the best in the game, one of which is Diddy. And Zero's results do count, you can't just say they don't because he's Zero.
Was Marth post Zero Saga top 5? Was Megaman post EVO 2016 top tier? No, because we don't take single tournaments in a vacuum.

 

[mycrookedhairline]

People have been saying that Bayo isn't the best because of results but now she's actually winning stuff.. and the difference between bayo and other characters in the running for the best character is that multiple Bayonetta mains make top 32 regularly.. EVO had 7 bayos in top 32

 

[FeelMeUp]

Never mentioned this, but Salem has a very good . Here's him playing against one of the strongest members of the Sheik discord.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

There's a lot more people in here getting ready to defend Bayonetta from attacks on the character who have not even been made yet. It seems really overly defensive and childish. You can find a lot of random uninformed, casual anonymous players saying stuff like that on reddit and /v/ and **** sure, but I really don't think you'd find anyone in threads like this saying the character should be banned.

It's like a contrarian culture formed of people who want to shame others for complaining about who is admittedly a fantastic character in this game.

 

[ぱみゅ]

No way in the world is Bayo so overpowered that she needs to be banned. (Although I would nerf her in a Switch patch, just as I would nerf some of the other top tiers a little and buff some of the bottom tiers).

Sorry, but this point is really rubs me the wrong way.
It might come as hypocritical to say you don't argue for a ban but still want nerfs.
If she really deserves more changes then she is *too* powerful and potentially toxic and therefore, a possible ban discussion would not be out of the table.


I did see people complaining and wanting to ban Bayonetta since last friday.
I expect some later or tomorrow.
I want to ban Bayonetta because people complain too much and at this point is about as justifiable as banning Duckhunt (because "nobody likes her" and "promotes a toxic playstyle").
I want to ban Bayonetta because people legit have quitted the game because of her.
I want to ban Bayonetta because we probably lost 2 of our major sources of info thanks to her (Juddy (maybe) and Tetra (almost definitely)).
I want to ban Bayonetta because Nintendo's new motto is "if it isn't fun, why bother?"
I want to ban Bayonetta to prevent more complaining about her, more nonsense arguments and more "you're delusional if you do not think she's broken".

 

[Onua]

When its only taken over a year of whining, constant complaining, wanting to ban her etc, and she FINALLY won a major

People who dislike the char or think shes "busted" are foaming at the teeth right now and honestly its really childish. Like the fact smash players will put down other players for who they play is so childish.

 

[TDK]

Well, this is unfortunate:

(1) Until they patch DLC and just priveledge stuff in general I don't think I wanna play this game competitively anymore.

— EMP FC | Mr. E - ON METAFY (@MreSSB) July 15, 2017

Marth and Lucina's life just got rougher.

 

[Onua]

Jeez, I still think people are knee jerking too hard

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Well, this is unfortunate:

(1) Until they patch DLC and just priveledge stuff in general I don't think I wanna play this game competitively anymore.

— EMP FC | Mr. E - ON METAFY (@MreSSB) July 15, 2017

Marth and Lucina's life just got rougher.

Has DLC simply become too imbalanced?

Or is this a simple knee-jerk reaction to Bayo winning her first super major?