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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Luigi player

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Those who think that Rage is anti-competitive would make terrible military generals, and win battles at the cost of losing wars.
To make a comparison...

So it would be fair to make your opponent faster and faster the more you're in the lead in a racing game?

It is not fair. This should be easy to understand, no?

Like I said, rage isn't as linear as this (it does many things, and to both players), but it still applies.


Oh, so it would help to figure out how your opponent thinks and acts in close head-to-head scenarious?
Get that "strategy" thinking outta here lol.
You'll die to a mistake 20+% earlier just because you did damage to him.

Yeah, both could get it over the course of the match and it could help both depending on the situation.
It could also hinder both.

Rage does a lot. But in the end, it should be easy to see why something like that is seen as bad, right?
It's balancing the game a little bit. It's weakening leads and strenghtens the one who's behind.
It also makes some stuff really stupid.

Though it also helps the game a little bit (no stupid hoo-has all day, stronger killmoves, more characters viable) and makes it kinda more dynamic I guess.


"Fixing" it by removing rage for fixed KB hits would possibly get rid of stupid rage kill-confirms which would be nice (for people not playing these characters and helping keep it more competitive), but the core problem is still there.
It still makes the weaker one stronger than the one in the lead for the reason of the one being in the lead being in the lead.
And ultimately basically take the lead away from him since it makes the match more even.

Not looking at kill-confirms... which would change up the lead a lot:

Imagine a normal ditto match (neither has specific range kill-confirms). Both players have the same tools.
The one with less % is in the lead, until he's at like 90, where either of them could KO each other, just because the one with less did more % to his opponent.
 
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|RK|

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Racing is an inherently flawed comparison. This is a fighting game with different types of characters. The issues faced - and their solutions - are COMPLETELY different.

And your final example isn't really accurate either. The amount rage changes things isn't that extreme between 90% and 150%. Even if that were the case, that means either A) they aren't far from one another in terms of percent, and they would have been able to kill each other anyways OR B) despite having the same tools, one person let their opponent live far longer than they should have... and they would have probably died anyways.
 

OverTime

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The problem with thinking "I won Neutral more times, I should win," is that this game isn't about lowering a health bar. It doesn't matter how many times you can win Neutral because you can win a game off of one neutral conversion or win a game off of 30 neutral conversions, it's about efficiency in sealing stocks. Winning neutral doesn't matter as much as sealing the stock in any smash game.

If anybody watched Smash Summit 4, they had a stat tracker. One of the stats were Openings/Kill, that is to say how many neutral openings it takes for one player to end a stock. The lower that number is, the better.

You can be winning neutral too much. Players like Mr. R with his infinite neutral, and ANTi with his Street Fighter roots are prone to that. Rage amplifies that you are in fact playing sloppily, that the stock should've been gone already and that you've gone too far with your neutral play.
 
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Luigi player

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Racing is an inherently flawed comparison. This is a fighting game with different types of characters. The issues faced - and their solutions - are COMPLETELY different.

And your final example isn't really accurate either. The amount rage changes things isn't that extreme between 90% and 150%. Even if that were the case, that means either A) they aren't far from one another in terms of percent, and they would have been able to kill each other anyways OR B) despite having the same tools, one person let their opponent live far longer than they should have... and they would have probably died anyways.
It is different, you are correct. But imo it's still a fair comparison since the point is that you are in the lead and your opponent gets stronger from that.

Yes it isn't that extreme. But it makes a difference. I never said rage is super extreme.

Imagine arm-wrestling if you think that is more comparable. The more you push the hand down of your opponent the stronger he gets. In the end he will have you down because of getting stronger than you. Once you reach the same amount of rage as he has you might be able turn it back because of being overall stronger, but he still got you almost down for no reason.
A really weird example that is assuming somewhat similar strengths and not counting fatigue, but still showing what rage would do in that scenario.


If you're at 60 and the opponent at 150 and he is Ryu he will probably kill maybe 20 % earlier with a Shoryuken than if he had no rage. By damaging him and gaining a big lead you're making him able to kill you earlier. You basically have to give him the lead in the match by trying to take him down, unless your plan is to gain a small lead and then time him out. Or you just listen to Isai and don't get hit at all (good luck with that).

In your situation A: they aren't too far, but there is a difference. You're still helping your opponent get stronger by being in the lead.
Your situation B is BS.
I always see people saying "they let them live too long".
What does this mean? You're basically telling me yourself that the one with the lead is getting punished, even while saying it isn't like that, lol.

Not everyone will be able to close out stocks. RPS exists and if you guess wrong a few times in a row then you might not hit with a killmove and the opponent lives longer. Just because he's longer in that higher % range doesn't mean he should get rewarded by getting stronger. It's already good enough for the opponent that he managed to live longer and get more chances himself. He doesn't need rage to push this further. But that is what rage does.


The problem with thinking "I won Neutral more times, I should win," is that this game isn't about lowering a health bar. It doesn't matter how many times you can win Neutral because you can win a game off of one neutral conversion or win a game off of 30 neutral conversions, it's about efficiency in sealing stocks. Winning neutral doesn't matter as much as sealing the stock in any smash game.

If anybody watched Smash Summit 4, they had a stat tracker. One of the stats were Openings/Kill, that is to say how many neutral openings it takes for one player to end a stock. The lower that number is, the better.

You can be winning neutral too much. Players like Mr. R with his infinite neutral, and ANTi with his Street Fighter routes are prone to that. Rage amplifies that you are in fact playing sloppily, that the stock should've been gone already and that you've gone too far with your neutral play.
You are right. But if you're at 100 and your opponent at 130 and you manage to hit with a killmove that barely fails to kill, while your opponent does the same thing but then kills you he was getting rewarded by having more %. It's really that simple, lol.
How does one not understand this.

(in practice it won't work like that since more % probably helps more than rage, but the point is that you're both doing the same thing and he is getting rewarded more, because of you damaging him more - you can think of this happening twice in the match (once for each player) for different stocks to have a more realistic example)
 
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blackghost

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Rage is a mechanic put in your raise tension of matches. Knowing how it works ensures there is always a fear both players have to account for as well as increase investment for viewers. Rage us powerful but it's not nearly an X factor level of impact.
Could it have been done better? Probably. But rage allows character who have historically been disrespected and unviable to become dangerous in a way they never have before and that has value.
 

Rizen

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To make a comparison...

So it would be fair to make your opponent faster and faster the more you're in the lead in a racing game?
It's called rubberbanding. Pretty much every racing game includes this, lol. I get what you're saying but it's not that rage is a bad mechanic necessary, especially in a series where heavies got dumped on by quick critters. SSB4 didn't implement it very well and then patched heavies with ding dongs so they went from punching bags to freight trains. If done well it could be a good balancing mechanic. Unfortunately Smash seems to mess up new gameplay systems at first.
 

|RK|

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It is different, you are correct. But imo it's still a fair comparison since the point is that you are in the lead and your opponent gets stronger from that.

Yes it isn't that extreme. But it makes a difference. I never said rage is super extreme.

Imagine arm-wrestling if you think that is more comparable. The more you push the hand down of your opponent the stronger he gets. In the end he will have you down because of getting stronger than you. Once you reach the same amount of rage as he has you might be able turn it back because of being overall stronger, but he still got you almost down for no reason.
A really weird example that is assuming somewhat similar strengths and not counting fatigue, but still showing what rage would do in that scenario.


If you're at 60 and the opponent at 150 and he is Ryu he will probably kill maybe 20 % earlier with a Shoryuken than if he had no rage. By damaging him and gaining a big lead you're making him able to kill you earlier. You basically have to give him the lead in the match by trying to take him down, unless your plan is to gain a small lead and then time him out. Or you just listen to Isai and don't get hit at all (good luck with that).

In your situation A: they aren't too far, but there is a difference. You're still helping your opponent get stronger by being in the lead.
Your situation B is BS.
I always see people saying "they let them live too long".
What does this mean? You're basically telling me yourself that the one with the lead is getting punished, even while saying it isn't like that, lol.

Not everyone will be able to close out stocks. RPS exists and if you guess wrong a few times in a row then you might not hit with a killmove and the opponent lives longer. Just because he's longer in that higher % range doesn't mean he should get rewarded by getting stronger. It's already good enough for the opponent that he managed to live longer and get more chances himself. He doesn't need rage to push this further. But that is what rage does.
The only really apt comparison is another fighting game. Because the point is to balance out specific archetypes that are only relevant in another fighting game.

And no, it's not BS. The entire purpose in a fighting game is not just to do damage - it's to close out the game effectively. Rage rewards the other player not for getting hit, but for surviving. Tbh, your example sounds more like you want the player who - in your own words - guessed wrong multiple times in a row to be safe from swift retribution.
 

TDK

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It doesn't make a lot of sense to say that just because your opponent is at 130 and you're at 90 that you automatically "win". We're not playing Stamina mode.

Does it make sense to almost kill someone and expect them to die because you're healthier than they are?

As opposed to other fighters, the goal of Smash isn't to reduce a health bar, it's to send your opponent flying past the blastzones. If you don't do that, it doesn't matter how many times you get hit, because in Smash, there isn't a definitive number of hits and not every life will last the same amount of time. As such, Rage benefits the surviving player for surviving, as that's one of the key points of the game.

In smash, your aim isn't to win neutral, it's to close out stocks and survive. Rage forces you to get better at that.

In Brawl at Dreamland, almost every stock went nearly 150. Everyone was surviving, but nobody got any reward off of it, and due to staling, if you made it to 150 you were usually safe for a little while as your opponent's main KO moves were weakened due to trying to KO you with them. But your opponent could just keep launching you back, because it's not like your KO moves were any better. There's no reward for surviving in Brawl. You just come back, get hit again, come back, hit your opponent, watch them survive, and repeat.

64 and Melee are the opposite. Stocks rarely last more than a minute, and 0-deaths off of a single hit are rampant. It's very marvel-esque. Rage would have 0 benefit in these games (Except for maybe against Melee Marth) because holding onto a stock is nearly impossible and one mistake gets you killed.

In smash 4, losing stocks very early is present, but so is living for a long time. The difference is you get rewarded for surviving. You don't get rewarded for Losing - because you've only lost once you've lost two stocks. That's a big misconception in this game, that if you have more stocks, or more percent, you should win the game. That's not how smash 4 works. Smash 4 rewards you for sealing off stocks effectively, and rewards your opponent for preventing you from doing that. If you have the best neutral in the world but can't fulfill the win condition presented to you - sending your opponent out of the ring twice, not hitting them a number of times - then you deserve to lose.
 

Mr. Johan

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If a Sheik Fsmash would have killed a DK just barely from a shieldpoke, is it bad design if the DK recognized the situation, dropped shield and dashed in oh so slightly so that he barely survives the Fsmash just from positional displacement, and comes back to abuse the increased rage he now got because he noticed his predicament and took a high risk, high reward option?
 

FamilyTeam

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It's called rubberbanding. Pretty much every racing game includes this, lol.
Non-serious racing games include rubber banding. Simulations/pseudo simulations like Forza only include rubber banding for the bots.
Otherwise, if you're behind, nothing will get you back to first place other than good use of your machine and outskilling your opponent in racing techniques.
The closest thing to some sort of "comeback mechanic" in real racing is slipstreaming and slingshotting.
 

Rizen

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Non-serious racing games include rubber banding. Simulations/pseudo simulations like Forza only include rubber banding for the bots.
Otherwise, if you're behind, nothing will get you back to first place other than good use of your machine and outskilling your opponent in racing techniques.
The closest thing to some sort of "comeback mechanic" in real racing is slipstreaming and slingshotting.
Rubberbanding is always only for the CPUs. This is derailing the thread :/
 

blackghost

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If a Sheik Fsmash would have killed a DK just barely from a shieldpoke, is it bad design if the DK recognized the situation, dropped shield and dashed in oh so slightly so that he barely survives the Fsmash just from positional displacement, and comes back to abuse the increased rage he now got because he noticed his predicament and took a high risk, high reward option?
Aren't you skipping how dk still had to fight his way back to the ledge and stage against a character? Dk doesn't just magically comeback. Given its dk he may not even be able to recover in the first place.
 

Bowserboy3

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There's almost nothing that implies Luigi has potential to be a better character than Mario. Mario's counterplay is becoming stronger, that can't be denied, but he's still a quite strong character and probably will be top 15 for a while.
Whenever a character is on a perceived downward trend, everyone jumps on the "this character actually sucked the whole time train", then whenever they get high placement(s) at a notable tournament it suddenly turns into "woah, this character is amazing!" (this happened in particular with :4falcon:and :4zss:).
Thissssssssss.

Especially :4zss:; to be honest I still feel in certain levels of the community she's still not given enough credit for the sh*t she has at her disposal.

Also, add :rosalina: to that list. High Tier my foot.

---

Also, extremely late afterhthought but I'm very pleased Samsora got 5th at CEO Dreamland with :4peach:. Another lowkey really solid/strong character.

She's so interesting to watch too (at least IMO).
 
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BSP

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I'm with Luigi player 100% on rage. I can see how it's somewhat justifiable when you look at examples of sheik vs the heavies, but this is just a corner case of all the MUs in the game. What about MUs where neutral is "fairer ", like Mario vs Luigi? Then rage becomes moreso punishing you for landings hits depending on the situation.

Hypothetical : I'm Mario and I do something punishable on Luigi's shield, and he could ftilt me for it. However, if he Ftilts me, he will give me just enough rage for Mario's Dair to true combo him, and he is in kill % for Dthrow, U air, Dair. Should Luigi forego the punish?

The fact that rage brings up this question is pretty stupid and why I don't see myself ever becoming a fan of it.
 

TDK

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Anvil Smash #100 (70 Entrants) (Southern Virginia)

1st: WaDi :4mewtwo:
2nd: Puppeh :4sheik:
3rd: Promaelia :4corrin: :4palutena:
4th: Viceroy :rosalina:
 
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D

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Because it's not like male Corrin isn't a fine character or anything. :smash:
 

FamilyTeam

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Rubberbanding is always only for the CPUs. This is derailing the thread :/
Mario Kart is a game that gives some sort of rubber banding to everyone through the form of items.
But again, let's not derail the thread.

How's Puppeh? I have not heard much about him since the Wario upset. He gave Anti some trouble when he fought him once.
 

Trunks159

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Thissssssssss.

Especially :4zss:; to be honest I still feel in certain levels of the community she's still not given enough credit for the sh*t she has at her disposal.

Also, add :rosalina: to that list. High Tier my foot.

---

Also, extremely late afterhthought but I'm very pleased Samsora got 5th at CEO Dreamland with :4peach:. Another lowkey really solid/strong character.

She's so interesting to watch too (at least IMO).
I think she's treated that way because whenever Marss or Nairo walk into a match where they're expected to lose, they lose in a way that blatantly displays the flaws of this character whenever ZSS is incapable of getting grabs consistently.
 

Luigi player

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It's called rubberbanding. Pretty much every racing game includes this, lol.
Must be bad or just party games. Though to be fair it's hard to balance racing games, because of not being able to go the same way as someone else at the same time.
I get what you're saying but it's not that rage is a bad mechanic necessary, especially in a series where heavies got dumped on by quick critters. SSB4 didn't implement it very well and then patched heavies with ding dongs so they went from punching bags to freight trains. If done well it could be a good balancing mechanic. Unfortunately Smash seems to mess up new gameplay systems at first.
I'm not saying rage is just "bad". I've been saying that I don't know if I'd want rage gone and like some aspecs of it.
I know it's not just helping a worse player either, and it doesn't change too much as well. But it still changes the game a bit.
Heavies getting dumped on doesn't mean rage is needed. To counteract the bigness and slowness of heavies they hit harder and live longer. No rage is needed to improve this. The Ding Dong or Koo-pa etc work without rage as well. It is not needed for this. Rage makes those windows when they work smaller, it's just they work earlier, so it's a double-edged sword for DK and Bowser, mostly being worse, since having those fixed, larger %-windows would be more reliable for them.
These hoo-has were given to some heavies, because they were bad characters. The Smash creators just didn't do a good enough job at balancing their stats out. Hitting harder and living longer just doesn't help them enough when they're being played ping pong with. Or maybe it would, but their "slowness" is just too much. They can't land (bad options, a lot of landinglag, slow moves, etc). All of this together is making them bad. And they tried to help them by giving them hoo-has, which is pretty sad (it's fun and all to get this yourself, maybe even hype for some people, but most are just getting salty- and for good reason), because they would need help in different aspects.

Of course rage does balance it out a little bit as well. If you get those grabs in the earlier %-windows where these hoo-has work you get the stock. And if you manage to hit with a hard-hitting move that's getting boosted by rage you also benefit from this. Your opponents will also lose their early-% combos more easily while you're hitting them than if they wouldn't have rage.

___

The only really apt comparison is another fighting game. Because the point is to balance out specific archetypes that are only relevant in another fighting game.
It does balance out the different characters, but who knows if that is what they tried to do while adding it?
Sakurai always wanted Smash to be a party game. They added a lot of random elements everywhere and the "pity final smash" when you're a few stocks behind. It's very possible that they just wanted to add a tiny bit of a comeback factor- just to help keep the playing field more even.

And no, it's not BS. The entire purpose in a fighting game is not just to do damage - it's to close out the game effectively. Rage rewards the other player not for getting hit, but for surviving. Tbh, your example sounds more like you want the player who - in your own words - guessed wrong multiple times in a row to be safe from swift retribution.
Yes, the purpose is to close out the stock (or time out with a % lead). But to do that you have to rack up damage first, unless you get early gimps (which do happen, but it's definitely not something you should always try going for).
Rage rewards someone for getting hit. Your reward for surviving is being able to try to get hits in again yourself and still being at your stock. Being able to survive is a super-huge-reward in itself.
How many times would people have lost sets if they didn't tech a stagespike, but they did, and then were able to win it themselves? These techs are game-changers, because of survival. The reward of surviving doesn't need another, extra "reward", which also has the negative effect of helping the player who is supposedly losing.

In my example I do not necessarily want the player who guessed wrong multiple times to win.
How do you take stocks safely? You try to predict, while spacing your moves to stay safe. If you miss - nothing bad happens; you were smart enough to position and time yourself correctly to not get punished hard for trying.
That is a very important skill by itself. If you didn't guess correctly and the opponent is surviving he will have another chance at winning neutral/going back to neutral or whatever. That is their reward for you guessing wrong/them not getting hit/surviving.

You just want to give them even more reward for no reason but to give them another advantage, even though they're supposed to be at the disadvantage.
If you want to compare Smash4+rage to another fighting game you can just compare it to Smash64, Melee or Brawl.

___

It doesn't make a lot of sense to say that just because your opponent is at 130 and you're at 90 that you automatically "win". We're not playing Stamina mode.
I wouldn't say that even in stamina it would work like that, lol. But it is showing a trend.

Does it make sense to almost kill someone and expect them to die because you're healthier than they are?

As opposed to other fighters, the goal of Smash isn't to reduce a health bar, it's to send your opponent flying past the blastzones. If you don't do that, it doesn't matter how many times you get hit, because in Smash, there isn't a definitive number of hits and not every life will last the same amount of time. As such, Rage benefits the surviving player for surviving, as that's one of the key points of the game.

In smash, your aim isn't to win neutral, it's to close out stocks and survive. Rage forces you to get better at that.
Rage forces you to get better at that, yes. Why? Because of giving an unfair advantage to the player who is supposed to be in disadvantage.

In Brawl at Dreamland, almost every stock went nearly 150. Everyone was surviving, but nobody got any reward off of it, and due to staling, if you made it to 150 you were usually safe for a little while as your opponent's main KO moves were weakened due to trying to KO you with them. But your opponent could just keep launching you back, because it's not like your KO moves were any better. There's no reward for surviving in Brawl. You just come back, get hit again, come back, hit your opponent, watch them survive, and repeat.
I've mentioned above that surviving alone is one of the biggest rewards in the game. It should be obvious why. You live on with the same stock - get another chance - aren't a stock behind (which can be hard to take off when you've lost rage as well). In one of my Brawl sets against Leon I've survived really long, because of good DI and momentumcancelling. My reward for that was to stay alive longer in these situations. You want an extra reward for that after you have such a huge reward for surviving? Want to get a free final smash with that? Gtfo.

64 and Melee are the opposite. Stocks rarely last more than a minute, and 0-deaths off of a single hit are rampant. It's very marvel-esque. Rage would have 0 benefit in these games (Except for maybe against Melee Marth) because holding onto a stock is nearly impossible and one mistake gets you killed.
Who knows?! Rage could mess up combos as well to make it harder to close out stocks - making the losing player able to have an easier time taking the stock off the one who just took his, while the leading player might not have too good, working combos - just because of that rage.

In smash 4, losing stocks very early is present, but so is living for a long time. The difference is you get rewarded for surviving. You don't get rewarded for Losing - because you've only lost once you've lost two stocks. That's a big misconception in this game, that if you have more stocks, or more percent, you should win the game. That's not how smash 4 works. Smash 4 rewards you for sealing off stocks effectively, and rewards your opponent for preventing you from doing that. If you have the best neutral in the world but can't fulfill the win condition presented to you - sending your opponent out of the ring twice, not hitting them a number of times - then you deserve to lose.
In Brawl, losing stocks very early was possible, living for a long time was also possible. Your reward for surviving is staying alive, without an extra reward to help the losing player.

___

If a Sheik Fsmash would have killed a DK just barely from a shieldpoke, is it bad design if the DK recognized the situation, dropped shield and dashed in oh so slightly so that he barely survives the Fsmash just from positional displacement, and comes back to abuse the increased rage he now got because he noticed his predicament and took a high risk, high reward option?
That would probably be stupid of the DK because getting back to neutral or even his advantage is the most difficult thing for him.
But for your examples sake - it could possibly be smart by the DK to take advantage of a mechanic that rewards him for getting hit.

Was it smart for Hikaru to get himself killed by Mr R by charging a Dsmash and making Mr R wanting to abuse this to get the stock - just so he's out of rage so that Mr R is back in Ding Dong %?
Possibly.
It's also possible that rage hindered him and forced him to suicide his own stock to get rid of it.
Is it a good thing that rage kinda balanced out the Ding Dong in this case? Possibly, because the Ding Dong itself is kinda a "toxic" thing to have. But if you look at it competitively, it sucks that rage hindered him.

But yeah, rage can help or hinder. It's always dependant on the specific situation.
 
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TDK

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Rage forces you to get better at that, yes. Why? Because of giving an unfair advantage to the player who is supposed to be in disadvantage.
I don't have time to respond to your whole post right now, but I'll ask you this:

How is levelling the playing field to make the player in advantage and the player in disadvantage on slightly less uneven footing (Though still slanted towards whoever's in advantage) unfair? That actually sounds more like fairness to me...
 

Luigi player

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I don't have time to respond to your whole post right now, but I'll ask you this:

How is levelling the playing field to make the player in advantage and the player in disadvantage on slightly less uneven footing (Though still slanted towards whoever's in advantage) unfair? That actually sounds more like fairness to me...
Every player would have this advantage if he did the same stuff.
The player in advantage worked for this to be like that, so that is his reward. You take away from this reward just because he is leading.

If person A worked 3 hours for 30 $ and person B worked 1 hour for 10 $ (same job and everything), do you want A, who worked for 3 hours to give 5 $ to B, who worked only one, just so it is more even? (30 ~ 10 -> 25 ~ 15)
Well, maybe in our general social world to help each other, but not if it's in a competition, where everyone works for their own earnings.

That is not fairness, it would be unfair to take away from the one who did more, just because the other one was worse or doing less.
 

Nathan Richardson

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I don't have time to respond to your whole post right now, but I'll ask you this:

How is levelling the playing field to make the player in advantage and the player in disadvantage on slightly less uneven footing (Though still slanted towards whoever's in advantage) unfair? That actually sounds more like fairness to me...
I'm with TDK on this one and i'm the noob who doesn't always get some of the mechanics of the game.
When someone wins neutral all the time but can't remotely seal a stock (you know something that THE ENTIRE GAME SERIES REVOLVES AROUND) don't you think the other player deserves a fighting chance?
The player winning neutral isn't being punished for doing well they're being punished for ignoring the objective of the game, which is to seal stocks.
I think given the massive walls of text you made in regards to this that this is a serious sore spot for you and something that you really don't like.
Have you had issues with this mechanic as you've played smash 4?
 

Laken64

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Isn't Ally trying to pick up DK or something?
Ally once said in a interview with EE at G4 that he might invest in:4diddy: as as a legitimate secondary, though it has yet to be seen or heard of since that.
 

DunnoBro

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My problem isn't rage so much as how the disadvantage state is rarely THAT disadvantageous in this game.

Witch Time and Focus threaten to kill you as low as 0% if you don't take the safest punish
Divekicks say "nope" and demand you just stay satisfied with stage control
Landing aerials like Lucario Bair, Luigi Nair, Cloud Dair.
Air dodges like Mewtwo, Lucas, etc

This, PLUS rage makes it easy to comeback. But overall this is the main issue, people rag on sm4sh due to it's lack of movement techniques, but characters sure are hard to pin down when you need to.

Even if they're the better player, I don't like seeing players winning from disadvantage state.
 

|RK|

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I would just compare it to Tekken, tbh. You realize that rage didn't originate in Smash 4, yes? It's a Namco-Bandai thing.

And seeing as the Smash games are on drastically different ends of the spectrum (touch of death combos are common in Melee & 64, Brawl is slower, heavily based on neutral game over punish game), this is more balanced than it initially looks. Someone else already said it, but Smash 4 is super in-between those. You can't make a touch of death comeback in many cases - no shinespikes/ledgehogging/etc, but the game is also not trying to be Brawl in neutral. Thus the company with experience balancing fighting games steps in, and we get rage. So now you have no touch of death conversions (for the most part), a greater focus on neutral, and the ability to make comebacks.
 

TDK

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The player in advantage worked for this to be like that, so that is his reward. You take away from this reward just because he is leading.
Okay, well what if we look at it this way.

You're DK. You're big, you're slow, you don't have a good combo breaker, you can't land, but you live forever and have a good kill confirm in your Ding Dong. You're facing a Sheik. Sheik is small, fast, has excellent burst combos, gets around 40% at least off of hitting you with one move, is ridiculously safe, and edge guards you for free.

One single hit from the Sheik is enough to put you into a terrible position. If you get hit by a fair, nair, or pretty much anything, you are in a terrible position, especially if the Sheik drags you offstage, which she will. Off of a single hit, she takes you to 60 and leaves you offstage, and begins shooting needles to keep you there. It's pretty hopeless. You keep working to mix up your recovery, try not to make any mistakes or put yourself into a position to be bouncing fished and die. It isn't working. You're being hit over and over and over again, trying your best to recover and not die to this sheik who has yet to be hit, who's standing onstage needling you and fairing you and trumping you and just not letting you leave disadvantage -

you grab the ledge. You make it back to the stage.

It's not over yet. You're at 180, and Sheik is still at 0. You've spent at least a minute and a half offstage, in disadvantage, trying your hardest to make it back.

...But it's not over yet. You still have to win neutral. Winning Neutral against Sheik is near impossible, especially when one mistake will either kill you or put you back in disadvantage.

Why shouldn't you get help? You worked just as hard, if not harder than the player in advantage just to get back into neutral. it's not like the player in disadvantage puts down their controller and lets the opponent hit them, they're working equally as hard to return to neutral.

(Blank vs Tweek at CEO Dreamland and ZeRo vs M2K at Pax Prime 2015 are good examples of this)
 
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FeelMeUp

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Honestly...No :4sheik:ever has the right to complain about rage because you had no business getting hit in those situations in the first place.

Anyway, there are very, very few situations where I think rage is legitimate horse**** and they usually involve characters with stellar neutrals that can also abuse it. Examples:
:4sheik:/:4diddy:rage crossup Uair
:4bayonetta:rage anything
:4mario:rage reverse SJP
:4peach:rage Parasol
:4mewtwo:rage Uthrow/FS Disable
Most of these have little to no risk in execution and don't get you punished heavily for attempting them. THAT is pure nonsense.
:4dk: should not be able to pivot grab in place 4-5 times knowing he won't die for it at 140 vs most characters because he knows you'll die immediately once he succeeds. When rage influences neutral gameplay that much, the match degenerates into a silly fishing war. Nobody wants to play that.
 

Skeeter Mania

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Honestly...No :4sheik:ever has the right to complain about rage because you had no business getting hit in those situations in the first place.

Anyway, there are very, very few situations where I think rage is legitimate horse**** and they usually involve characters with stellar neutrals that can also abuse it. Examples:
:4sheik:/:4diddy:rage crossup Uair
:4bayonetta:rage anything
:4mario:rage reverse SJP
:4peach:rage Parasol
:4mewtwo:rage Uthrow/FS Disable
Most of these have little to no risk in execution and don't get you punished heavily for attempting them. THAT is pure nonsense.
:4dk: should not be able to pivot grab in place 4-5 times knowing he won't die for it at 140 vs most characters because he knows you'll die immediately once he succeeds. When rage influences neutral gameplay that much, the match degenerates into a silly fishing war. Nobody wants to play that.
What about Samus's Screw Attack or ZSS's Boost Kick?
 

verbatim

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IDK if Mewtwo's footstool disable has much to do wtih rage, or his up throw for that matter. If the game were designed without rage his up throw would most likely have been buffed even further.

When I think of extreme examples of rage it's usually a multi-hit or something with high base knockback that's not supposed to kill being able to do regardless of the opponent's percent. I.E,.

Multihit up-b's: :4mario::4peach::4bayonetta::4samus: (:4zss: technically has this but imo people don't care as much)
back hit of up-b: :4cloud:
move's not linking correctly: :4pit:/:4darkpit::4duckhunt::4gaw:


IMO stuff like heavies killing early (also :4lucario: in general) is intended, and enables characters with poor neutrals to make comebacks. In fact rage can actually be really helpful when fighting against heavies. If you do enough damage to DK his Ding Dong will stop working on your character.
 
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DunnoBro

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Duck hunt's just absurdly wonky, rage isn't the reason his moves don't connect. In fact his frisbee works better with rage.
 

DanGR

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I think you could make the argument that % lead is a pretty subjective 'lead criteria,' and that we should assign way less importance to it. The player with the most forward position in a racing game isn't necessarily in the best position to win, strategically, even in games without comeback mechanics. Similarly, on a golf course the longest possible shot towards the hole isn't necessarily the most optimal one to take on any given stroke. i.e you have to consider the impact of the rough, sand pits, etc. possibly in a similar way you may consider rage a factor.

All-in-all, it may be wise to distance ourselves from the idea that a lead in any strict sense = "is currently winning". Not only might that interpretation not be accurate, it may also be detrimental towards our mindsets in game, as well.
 
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DunnoBro

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So Bayo Planking: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/67bpcs/in_this_ceo_dreamland_set_between_captain_zack/

I've actually been looking into this for a while now. Lima won the nairo tournament largely abusing this, and while there's only maybe a third of the cast which it's truly viable against, it's pretty unacceptable tbh. It's actually easier, and more rewarding than the custom villager ledge stall. (post-patch)

Mario, Sonic, Marth, Fox, etc can't do anything about it. Cloud has to burn his limit for regular blade beam to challenge her.
 
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ARISTOS

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Every player would have this advantage if he did the same stuff.
The player in advantage worked for this to be like that, so that is his reward. You take away from this reward just because he is leading.

If person A worked 3 hours for 30 $ and person B worked 1 hour for 10 $ (same job and everything), do you want A, who worked for 3 hours to give 5 $ to B, who worked only one, just so it is more even? (30 ~ 10 -> 25 ~ 15)
Well, maybe in our general social world to help each other, but not if it's in a competition, where everyone works for their own earnings.

That is not fairness, it would be unfair to take away from the one who did more, just because the other one was worse or doing less.
This is not a fair analogy.

In Smash terms, person A and B are not working the same wage, not unless they're the same character.

Setting up the parameters like this:

Person A: $10 per hr
Person B: $250 per 24 hours

Is a more accurate form of the story.

Person A is clocking in rewards every hour, while person B has to continue going without pay until his 24 hour shift is up.

Person A should be finishing the job within 24 hours. She has every reason to do so; she has the ability, the technical know-how.

But if she screws up within those 24 hours she has, and lets person B finish before, he gets to ding dong her. He becomes richer than her.

The longer she avoids finishing the job, the more reward person B has over her (in 48 hrs, it's $500 to A's $480; $20 more than it was yesterday).

That's rage in this game, where as before Person A got paid $30/hr and Person B got $5/ 3 hrs and B never got to catch up.
 

InfinitySoul

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Smash 4 has wonky mecanics with rage and the possibility to live both forevor and die from one mistake that gets you laddered. I realy hope wavedash game's game take off so I switch my main game.

In the meantime smash 4 is the game I enjoy the most, so I wilI keep on playing it and training. Because that's the only thing we can do. Nintendo doesn't come here to get feedbacks.
 
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