Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Rizen]

Battlefield(Starter), Final Destination(Starter), Lylat Cruise(Starter), Smashville(Starter), Town&City(Starter), Dream Land 64(Counter-Pick and treated as Battlefield during the striking phase)

I usually see Lylat and TnC as CPs.

Bayo's nowhere near dominant enough for a ban. Banning Cloud in doubles has a better case, although I personally disagree. IDK Mario but would guess Bayo is a bad MU for him. Ally gets kudos for usually going solo Mario most of the time but it's fine to pick up a secondary.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

So two top players aren't participating in this tourney not just because there isn't a pot bonus but also because of Bayo?!? *rubs temples* Wow....just wow yeah that's no good.

 

[The-Technique]

I usually see Lylat and TnC as CPs.

Bayo's nowhere near dominant enough for a ban. Banning Cloud in doubles has a better case, although I personally disagree. IDK Mario but would guess Bayo is a bad MU for him. Ally gets kudos for usually going solo Mario most of the time but it's fine to pick up a secondary.

It's weird because Ally can whoop top Clouds for days but can't seem to figure out Bayo. IIRC Ally has had a secondary in the works for a while, not sure its still gonna be Diddy or some other character though.

Also I think a lot of people are misinterpreting that thread regardig Zero and Ally, they aren't thinking of dropping the tournament solely because of Bayo.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

MKLeo Saga won't have a pot bonus. Zero, seeing this, posts on twitter about how a local Yugioh tournament is looking more tempting than it, and in the replies posts "Between fighting bayo for not that much reward and staying home and loving life..."

Plus Ally stating recently that he doesn't enjoy playing the game because of her.

I don't have a response to this.

Maybe they should take a "character vacation" and Just play bayo for a while. Idk.

 

[Minordeth]

ZeRo has had issues with larger tournaments not having pot bonuses before, and looking at the context of the surrounding tweets, I’m pretty sure he is being facetious about Bayo.

Regardless, he does rather well against her, and seems to be becoming as proficient in it as the Cloud MU.

Ally plays Mario. I’ve spoken at length about both Ally and Mario and why Ally has been in a bit of a slump, so I won’t beat a dead horse.

 

[Y2Kay]

If I am being honest, the only reason I still care about smash 4 is that I'm planning on finishing what I started with Greninja.

The drive to learn more and push the game further is definitely dying, but I feel the poor mentalities of players are killing the game much faster than Bayonetta is.

I still enjoy the progressions I make with the small band of gren players I still speak to. If it wasn't for that, I'd probably be playing Marvel.

 

[InfinitySoul]

He also rarely just runs up and grabs Bayonetta after she lands with heavy landing lag (though in some cases, it's wise to anyway with Rosalina so he gets let off with this simply due to the nature of his character). People in general also do this way too much. If you see Bayonetta has landed, if you don't get much off of a grab, then don't actually go for one. Doesn't matter if it's just a simple Smash attack; get that stage control with more damage instead - every % counts vs her. This is why Dabuz lets his Up Smash fly in this MU.

But grab is way less risky because of witch time landing.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Sounds more like tournament fatigue to me. While I'm grateful we have lots of tournaments and events we kinda have gone overboard with them. All that traveling and competing every week takes a toll on you. It seems like we have a major and super major weekend after weekend after weekend and it's taking away the value each tournament offers each other. If im a top level player living on the other side of the country and your event is a one day event with little financial incentive that isn't doing anything really different from the other 6why go to that when I can go to something close by and/or rest while I prepare for the championship next month which will offer me way more in terms of financial incentive and tournament experience?

The fact they don't want to deal with Bayo is more of a compound to the over saturation issue.

 

[Bowserboy3]

But grab is way less risky because of witch time landing.

If you can see Bayo is coming into land, then yes, grab is the safer option.

I'm reffering to when she's already landed on stage, with the landing lag, and players just go for grabs instinctively.

I know as a Marth player that I'd mostly go for a Dancing Blade over a grab past low percent, especially if near the ledge.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Plus Ally stating recently that he doesn't enjoy playing the game because of her.

And he enjoyed fighting Brawl MK?

Get the **** outta here with this horse****

 

[InfinitySoul]

If you can see Bayo is coming into land, then yes, grab is the safer option.

I'm reffering to when she's already landed on stage, with the landing lag, and players just go for grabs instinctively.

I know as a Marth player that I'd mostly go for a Dancing Blade over a grab past low percent, especially if near the ledge.

So reacting to the animation that confirms Bayonetta players are taking the landing lag right ?

 

[Krysco]

And he enjoyed fighting Brawl MK?

Get the **** outta here with this horse****

Has he ever verbally or online said that he enjoyed fighting Brawl MK? Or was it merely something he accepted because that's how Brawl was? Not only that but he also used Snake (and I don't recall if he used MK at all) who is a far more powerful character than Sm4sh Mario is. From my admittedly limited experience, I'd rather fight Brawl MK with Wolf (so long as they don't stall on the ledge) or Brawl Pika than fight Bayo with Roy or Mewtwo. May just be my bias towards Brawl though

 

[ぱみゅ]

By the last ~2 years of Brawl, Ally did use mostly MK, only picking Snake occasionally to avoid the Ditto, though he still went for MK against players that knew very well how to exploit Snake's weakness to juggles (but still had good records against ZeRo and M2K's Metas).

If I am being honest, the only reason I still care about smash 4 is that I'm planning on finishing what I started with Greninja.

The drive to learn more and push the game further is definitely dying, but I feel the poor mentalities of players are killing the game much faster than Bayonetta is.

I still enjoy the progressions I make with the small band of gren players I still speak to. If it wasn't for that, I'd probably be playing Marvel.

It is definitely a mentality issue from the community as a whole.
Bayonetta is far, FAR from being a real problem, but people want and found someone to direct their complaints to. The problem is that we don't know when to stop.

Remember this last weekend when nearly every notable player tweeted "Bayonetta is taking away years from my life" as a joke/meme?
Well, quite a number of people seemed convinced they actually meant Bayo is killing the game. That is why is dangerous to spread a toxic behaviour, specially if you don't actually agree with it.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well , part of it could be thatthe Bayo MU for Mario is starting to look as bad and mentally taxing as Sonic.
Mario has nearly all thr same issues with Bayo as he does Sonic. Once Bayo gets a percent lead she has no reason to approach Mario unsafely. She can also just camp using with Witch Twist ,ABK airiels , bullet arts and Mario can' really do much about it.


Yea you can say Ally needs to work on h8s SDI sure.. but he is not the only Mario that is stuggling . ANTi Mario also seems to stugglw in the MU, so much that it seems even use Mario in the MU anymore.. using Cloud or ZSS for the MU

 

[Deleted member]

Based on the chat, the Smash 4 M.E.T.A looks like a hot mess. I may be wrong, But the chat makes it seem so.

 

[Bowserboy3]

So reacting to the animation that confirms Bayonetta players are taking the landing lag right ?

Essentially, yes.

Basically, if you are somewhat close to Bayonetta and she lands with the full landing lag and you simply grab her, unless it's optimal, you've likely done wrong.

Heck, even Bayonetta landing on stage vs Bowser at 40% could be enough to spell death (Fsmash), even though Bowser lives off of grabs. This is what I'm getting at basically.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

By the last ~2 years of Brawl, Ally did use mostly MK, only picking Snake occasionally to avoid the Ditto, though he still went for MK against players that knew very well how to exploit Snake's weakness to juggles (but still had good records against ZeRo and M2K's Metas).



It is definitely a mentality issue from the community as a whole.
Bayonetta is far, FAR from being a real problem, but people want and found someone to direct their complaints to. The problem is that we don't know when to stop.

Remember this last weekend when nearly every notable player tweeted "Bayonetta is taking away years from my life" as a joke/meme?
Well, quite a number of people seemed convinced they actually meant Bayo is killing the game. That is why is dangerous to spread a toxic behaviour, specially if you don't actually agree with it.

Hrmm, ok here's a question then, how do we clean up that toxic mentality? This seems to be an almost universal problem in the smash community that someone is going to complain about some character being overpowered and scream for a ban. How do we fix a mentality like that?

 

[Rizen]

At least on smashboards and my local scene the community is pretty good, especially for a fighting game community. There was a WatchMojo about toxic gaming communities that had smash on their list but WM makes list every day. They're not well informed.
Maybe other social media and regions are toxic, idk. :/

 

[Deleted member]

I figured I’d break this next bit of news since I keep seeing comments about this current tier list being outdated (which I agree with) and wanting a new one: v4 is in the works.

However, I can’t give an exact date for when it’ll be ready. All I can say is... soon.

I know I already said this but thanks for telling us a new list is in the works. It's always interesting to see a new tier list.

By the last ~2 years of Brawl, Ally did use mostly MK, only picking Snake occasionally to avoid the Ditto, though he still went for MK against players that knew very well how to exploit Snake's weakness to juggles (but still had good records against ZeRo and M2K's Metas).



It is definitely a mentality issue from the community as a whole.
Bayonetta is far, FAR from being a real problem, but people want and found someone to direct their complaints to. The problem is that we don't know when to stop.

Remember this last weekend when nearly every notable player tweeted "Bayonetta is taking away years from my life" as a joke/meme?
Well, quite a number of people seemed convinced they actually meant Bayo is killing the game. That is why is dangerous to spread a toxic behaviour, specially if you don't actually agree with it.

Truth. Thank you for stating this. is nowhere near . is no where near perfect and It is not very hard to fight her. is not killing the game at all. If anything the complaining is killing the game. The community needs to stop complaining about and pleading to banin doubles and . Instead they should find counters and tricks to solve the issue. It also depends on the skill of a player.andare not perfect and still have many flaws just as all characters in the game do.

Dawg you are drunk. Put the bottle down and take a nap.

Interesting joke, I did make my tier list very late and was focused on making a tier list. Got me to like.

 

[Y2Kay]

At least on smashboards and my local scene the community is pretty good, especially for a fighting game community. There was a WatchMojo about toxic gaming communities that had smash on their list but WM makes list every day. They're not well informed.
Maybe other social media and regions are toxic, idk. :/

I find it very hard to believe the smash community is top 10 in toxicity.

Though pathological scrubby mindsets are an issue, it will never be as big of an issue compared to popular team games like Overwatch and LoL.

Scrubs in smash (and other fighting games) are annoying but are irrelevant to me in the grand scheme of things. I just beat them and move on. But scrubs in overwatch can seriously ruin an experience because you have to fight against them AND team up with them. It's also a lot easier to access higher levels of play when it's a one-on-one competition.

 

[InfinitySoul]

Essentially, yes.

Basically, if you are somewhat close to Bayonetta and she lands with the full landing lag and you simply grab her, unless it's optimal, you've likely done wrong.

Heck, even Bayonetta landing on stage vs Bowser at 40% could be enough to spell death (Fsmash), even though Bowser lives off of grabs. This is what I'm getting at basically.

That is something good to know, and with turn around cancel you are not limited to Usmash out of run.



I don't know if it was talked earlier, but M2K says that Cloud is not top tier in this old video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22WnDCRluCg (you can either watch the video or read the script linked).
Put simply, he says Cloud's recovery is not exploited enough. While he is falling toward the stage you should position yourself diagonaly down to him (at a range where he cannot react you with Fair) and either force a move from his part and punish or double jump and hit him if he tries to wait.

I have seen this technique apply two times at high level, and both time the players just ended up squashed by Cloud's upB https://twitter.com/Tetra_76/status/871493923138613250

So is this something that can be pushed, or only a "if I am a stock ahead" strategy ?
If it is a good strategy, does anyone have examples of it beeing put on application ?

I find it very hard to believe the smash community is top 10 in toxicity.

LS a notorious coach was talking about the different reddit communities on stream and he praised the smash one. So yeah, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[TDK]

Leo Saga pools are out. 3 advance, the winners/loser of winners finals and the winner of the losers bracket

B1: Larry Lurr vs Tsu- , Ac in losers
Wild Cards: None
B2: VoiD vs Raito , Ned in losers
Wild Cards: SS
B3: KEN vs Lima , Locus in losers
Wild Cards: Meteor
B4: Mr. R vs Elegant , Konga in losers
Wild Cards: Mr. Con Con
B5: Marss vs Samsora , Eon in losers
Wild Cards: Captain Levi
B6: Static Manny vs Kirihara , Stroder in losers
Wild Cards: Razo
B7: Mistake vs Cosmos , Luhtie in losers
Wild Cards: Captain L
B8: WaDi vs Shuton , K9Sbruce in losers
Wild Cards: DSS
C1: ZeRo vs Falln , Kameme in losers
Wild Cards: none
C2: Salem vs HIKARU , Charliedaking in losers
Wild Cards: none
C3: Nairo vs Zinoto , T in losers
Wild Cards: Dynamo
C4: MKLeo vs JK , Zenyou in losers
Wild Cards: None
C5: Tweek vs Mr. E , Javi in losers
Wild Cards: none
C6: Dabuz vs MVD , Tyrant in losers
Wild Cards: ImHip
C7: Komorikiri vs Captain Zack , Xzax in losers
Wild Cards: Scizor
C8: ESAM vs Abadango , Rich Brown in losers
Wild Cards: Aarvark

 

[Lord Dio]

Larry Lurr vs Tsu-

Okay, this looks exciting. I'd bet on Larry clutching it out, but he does seem to have a fear or anxiety of some kind agaisnt ryu.
Definitely a set worth watching, hopefully it gets streamed

 

[Deleted member]

Is even top of mid tier anymore? His results are very stagnant and has many flaws. Should be at the lower end of C tier.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It concerns me how nearly every Japanese player is projected to lose their WF match, which leads to some oddities.

Larry vs Komorikiri, are planned to face in WR1... again.
Kirihara's seeding is shockingly low. He might win against Manny, only to face Nairo in W1.
Same with KEN's, but he might be able to win most of his projected games, but if he does he will face ZeRo quite early in Winners.
Speaking of ZeRo, he's projected to face the winner of WaDi vs Shuton.... and ZeRo vs Shuton just happened not too long ago...
I can't say much about Raito nor Hikaru's seedings, both have characters with volatile/unpredictable results, depending on how the opponent handles the matchup during the specific event they are at.
And ESAM vs Abadango is another match we are starting to see quite often.

Just my opinions on the current form of the bracket.

 

[The-Technique]

Ouch, both T and Scizor got some really unfortunate brackets. I wouldn't be surprised if both got knocked out early.

 

[Lord Dio]

Larry vs Komorikiri, are planned to face in WR1... again.

For the fourth time this season. Seriously. Why.
You know something's wrong when two top ten players have been fighting each other four timess in a season and none of them were top 16 or higher matches.
As for Shuton, I'd bet ZeRo's learned the mu a lil better and practiced it more......
As sad as it is, Team Japan might actually do a lil better if ZeRo plays yugioh this weekend instead.

Also, smash.gg predicts the curse living on with Leo losing to ZeRo and Nairo.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Notable “Mexican” players attending MKLeo Saga

MKLeo
AC
Javi
Captain Levi
Razo(according to his twitter he’s from Sahuayo Michoacan)

Notable Japanese players attending:

KEN
Komorikiri
Abadango
Tsu
T
Shuton
Kirihara
Kameme
HIKARU
Raito

More Japanese players than Mexican players at Leo Saga. I’m sad but fine with it, would of liked to see more top Mexican players but still looking forward to it. Also I honestly can see MKLeo breaking the curse with his bracket. It is not that bad for him.

 

[Rizen]

Ouch, both T and Scizor got some really unfortunate brackets. I wouldn't be surprised if both got knocked out early.

Ahh, you beat me to it.

C3: Nairo vs Zinoto , T in losers
C7: Komorikiri vs Captain Zack , Xzax in losers
Wild Cards: Scizor

There are terrible pools for . Because good players, not so much bad MUs for T. Bayo and Fox are a pain but doable; at least Scizor doesn't have to face Sheik. Still good luck to the Link players

 

[Deleted member]

Hey chat, who do you think will win MKLeo Saga?

 

[verbatim]

B6: Static Manny vs Kirihara , Stroder in losers
Wild Cards: Razo

Kirihara's win record against KEN is something horrific, off the top of my head I want to say 10-1. I'd say that this is the most likely upset in pools.

C1: ZeRo vs Falln , Kameme in losers
Wild Cards: none

Insofar as I'm aware Kameme is the only player in the world with a positive win record on ZeRo (someone fact check that). It is also worth noting that ZeRo might not be attending after all, so keep that in mind.

C2: Salem vs HIKARU , Charliedaking in losers
Wild Cards: none

Hikaru's very good at the Bayonetta matchup and Salem went 1-1 against Krow's DK in pools at Big House. Salem hasn't had much trouble with any of the American DK's since then, but Hikaru's X-Factor might be enough to score an upset... assuming he can get past CDK.

 

[TDK]

Insofar as I'm aware Kameme is the only player in the world with a positive win record on ZeRo (someone fact check that). It is also worth noting that ZeRo might not be attending after all, so keep that in mind.

Kameme's one of 5, with a 1-0 record over ZeRo. The others are Prince Ramen (1-0), Brood (1-0), Luhtie (1-0), and Kirihara (2-1).

Kirihara's the only player in the world with a positive record over ZeRo that's played him more than once.

 

[Floor]

Honestly wanting the curse to live on... not too many players who can do that though, if ZeRo drops, (unlikely) then the curse is almost as good as broken.

 

[The-Technique]

Honestly wanting the curse to live on... not too many players who can do that though, if ZeRo drops, (unlikely) then the curse is almost as good as broken.

Leo beat Zero last time they played, and a bunch of players have upset Leo in the past. Shuton, Nairo, and especially Tweek (so much so that he asked him to switch off DK mid set) will give Leo a great deal of trouble.

 

[Laken64]

Okay, this looks exciting. I'd bet on Larry clutching it out, but he does seem to have a fear or anxiety of some kind agaisnt ryu.
Definitely a set worth watching, hopefully it gets streamed

This match happened some time ago at another saga where Tsu busted out both of his characters and still lost against Larry

 

[Luigi player]

If you can see Bayo is coming into land, then yes, grab is the safer option.

I'm reffering to when she's already landed on stage, with the landing lag, and players just go for grabs instinctively.

I know as a Marth player that I'd mostly go for a Dancing Blade over a grab past low percent, especially if near the ledge.

the thing is, once you've realised she didn't witchtime it might be too late to react with anything else already.

you also have to watch out when she lands because she has many mixups like fairs, dair, witchtime (she moves away and stalls in the air), or she's landing with a downwards sideb where it's hard to even react to it & predict the exact position you need to be in and then she can't hit your shield otherwise she'll jump up again and you likely have to shield or make a defensive move otherwise the landing hit of that will hit you, which is limiting the punish options even more.

witchtime might not decide games all the time, but it's sheer existance is why you'll have to get 50:50s right all the time. it's pretty difficult to punish even if you expect it and if you guess wrong and she just attacks you you might already be in a huge combo string of her.
bayo players have already gotten used to being able to mix up their landing and they're doing it very well. just going to the ledge, mixing you up into believing they're going to land and punishing you (dair and kill instead of you getting a punish on their landing) or just moving around 3 times more until they finally land somewhere.
and the threat of witchtime will also keep you from just trying to hit her somehow because if she guesses right you might die starting at like 70+ or maybe just get death combo'd no matter the %s.

i agree that sometimes it might be possible to punish differently in time. i still have to work on that myself, but it's not always possible and you don't want to miss such crucial punishes by attacking too late if you've at least could've gotten a grab.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Razo(according to his twitter he’s from Sahuayo Michoacan)

I thought he was from SoCal. I remember him attending a lot of MSMs there.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I thought he was from SoCal. I remember him attending a lot of MSMs there.

He lives in Socal but he’s from that area

 

[Lord Dio]

Leo beat Zero last time they played, and a bunch of players have upset Leo in the past. Shuton, Nairo, and especially Tweek (so much so that he asked him to switch off DK mid set) will give Leo a great deal of trouble.

It was also Leo's 2nd win over zero. Hasn't beaten him since zero saga, also was with mk>
Point still stands. Just because Zero might drop doesn't mean the curse could be broken. It's one player against everyone else,some of whom have beaten him, and ZeRo dropping out could make it easy for them to get to leo.
Not to be pessimistic, but I'd rather put my trust in the curse bein broken when it's not named after one person.

Also, Laken64 , that was arms saga and larry went dk vs ryu, which is something he might do.
But it's still gonna be exciting to watch

 

[Shaya]

And he enjoyed fighting Brawl MK?

Get the **** outta here with this horse****

Can hate on MK all day, but he was interactive for the opponent in most situations barring edge guarding / infinite tornado traps (something mostly a problem for bad characters). Him planking the ledge wasn't interactive either, but we put rules into the game that hurt him for doing this (it gave alternative win conditions to your opponent by keeping MK on the ledge). Bayo generally can't be harassed or challenged on the ledge whatsoever either.
Bayo comes with the lack of interactivity of Ice Climbers with the diverse and powerful options of a top tier.

Yes, it was insanely bat**** trying to deal with MK's ftilt/dtilt, shuttle loop OoS and auto canceled aerials in brawl - but he was still vulnerable to power shields (something Bayo legitimately ignores thanks to this game's shield mechanics, lack of animation cooldowns and hold A to continue inflicting shield stun thus hampering any human's ability to adapt their muscle memory for her, something you could and DID do for Brawl Meta Knight / most horse **** things in that game); and if he was in deficit he had to approach/get you to the ledge to overcome it - Bayo suddenly switches to win from anywhere in almost any situation.