Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Rizen]

Pac's grab is bad but his Nair is frame 3 with only 12f landing lag; that's really good. A combo breaker like that is probably better for Pac Man. Mewtwo's Nair works really well with his moveset so idk if he'd trade for Pac's Nair or not. @ last page, I agree Mewtwo might be on the low end of top tier but he's better than the high tiers.
/my 2 cents

 

[Finh009]

Umebura 29 is tonight!

Spoiler: Featuring:

KEN
T
Masha
Yuzu
LG | Abadango
Earth
Brood
Kuro
Kirihara
RAIN
YOC
FILIP
Choco
Shogun
Kisha
Nyanko
DNG | Kameme
Eim
Gackt
Es
Raito
takera
Fuwa
shky
Tsu-
bAhuto
RSZ | Umeki
Lea
DNG | Nietono
Shu
Some
KaPMk
Mao
kept
Mattun
Ke-ya
OCEAN
Taranito
Suinoko
Tosshi
Mangalitza
Songn

Pools: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...rb0lqQlMqbq88IReI8mqy4M2c/edit#gid=1685490253
Bracket: http://challonge.com/Umebura29T
Stream: https://go.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Umebura 29 is tonight!

Spoiler: Featuring:

KEN
T
Masha
Yuzu
LG | Abadango
Earth
Brood
Kuro
Kirihara
RAIN
YOC
FILIP
Choco
Shogun
Kisha
Nyanko
DNG | Kameme
Eim
Gackt
Es
Raito
takera
Fuwa
shky
Tsu-
bAhuto
RSZ | Umeki
Lea
DNG | Nietono
Shu
Some
KaPMk
Mao
kept
Mattun
Ke-ya
OCEAN
Taranito
Suinoko
Tosshi
Mangalitza
Songn

Pools: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...rb0lqQlMqbq88IReI8mqy4M2c/edit#gid=1685490253
Bracket: http://challonge.com/Umebura29T
Stream: https://go.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

That's quite a large talent pool.

 

[Lord Dio]

So apparently DK can cancel his slap.
No knowledge of it's uses, DK will will post on his feed uses later

 

[verbatim]

I'm sure he would with how terrible his grab currently is plus the poor reward from throws. Nair is a bit more surprising to see mentioned since Pac's is more than twice as fast as M2's but the combo potential of M2's is obviously nice. Point of comparing those two was the gaps they have. Mewtwo's nair never has a hitbox on frames 9-10 since the first hitboxes are f7-8 and then f11-12 similar to how Pac's grab never grabs on frames 15-21 since that's the gap between the first grab boxes and the second ones. Compare that to Palutena's nair which has hitboxes on frames 5-27 and simply has a rehit rate of 5 to make it a multihit move. Doesn't matter when you get near your opponent, the nair will land while Mewtwo's has gaps which can make 2 framing with it tricky despite the moves overall long duration.

Pacman has a frame 1 up b that beats shield, nair would be safe in significantly more situations than Mewtwo's would.

Pacman also has the best footstool combo in the entire game, food for thought.

https://twitter.com/Teitoku_Admiral/status/666602543955361794/video/1

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

http://www.twitch.tv/canadacup4 live now with smash 4
http://www.twitch.tv/canadacup3 live now with melee
Stream Schedule
https://twitter.com/acekingoffsuit/status/923743878494277632

 

[Lord Dio]

so the dk slap thing happens only on lylat, and on the engines, and has something to do with the tilt.....but leads into a good deal of things including bair nair uair and giant punch......

 

[|RK|]

so the dk slap thing happens only on lylat, and on the engines, and has something to do with the tilt.....but leads into a good deal of things including bair nair uair and giant punch......

DK Will showed a video of it working after an auto cancelled aerial iirc. On a flat stage.

 

[Lord Dio]

DK Will showed a video of it working after an auto cancelled aerial iirc. On a flat stage.

which just serves to make it more itnersting, thought he or kdk said it had to do with the tilt but whatevs.
Still, makes it even more interesting that dk can do a slap cancel kill move on, more or less, any legal stage. Granted, the percents were noticeably higher than ding dong, so I guess this is something for if they manage to get out of ding dong range.

 

[Rizen]

Which slap, DK's DownB?

 

[Lord Dio]

yeah, down b.

 

[C0rvus]

Yeah but who needs all that commit stuff when you just need to get a grab?

 

[Rizen]

Yeah but who needs all that commit stuff when you just need to get a grab?

^this. DK's downB isn't a bad move but it gets overshadowed by better options. I almost never see DK players use it in high level play.

 

[TDK]

Umebura 29 (252 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Choco
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Eim
4th: Nietono
5th: KEN
5th: Rain
7th: Yuzu
7th: Kuro
9th: Kirihara
9th: Shogun
9th: Es
9th: Masha
13th: Kameme
13th: Mao
13th: Yaminabe
13th: Earth

 

[The-Technique]

Choco beat KEN and double eliminated Abadango to win the tournament. Pretty good result for ZSS.

 

[Lord Dio]

Yeah but who needs all that commit stuff when you just need to get a grab?

People who can't get the grab or hit opponents out of DD range by happenstance.

 

[JB333]

Big upset at Too Hot to Handle:

dyr3-2 Salem

 

[|RK|]

Big upset at Too Hot to Handle:

dyr3-2 Salem

And with that, let's discuss whether Diddy beats Bayo

 

[TDK]

Too Hot to Handle top 8:

Winners:
Dyr vs Static Manny
ESAM vs Dabuz

Losers:
Salem vs Cashmere
MattyG vs Captain Zack

Canada Cup 2017 top 8:

Winners:
MKLeo vs Zinoto
Larry Lurr vs Ally

Losers:
Deathorse vs Lima
SuperGirlKels vs Venom

 

[Heracr055]

Shame about MattyG. He was doing so well in game 5 before Rosa uair happened.
On a separate note, ESAM did well with Pikachu. From previous lists I understand Pika is the most controversial char to tier (maybe it's Corrin this time around). How do we feel about Chu?

 

[Minordeth]

Ugh, Rich Brown in game 4 against Salem was sooo close to closing out against Salem. I was yelling at the screen for an Upsmash about four times.

As a side note:
I don’t think Bayo beats Diddy. I think there is this paradigm in Smash 4, that ever since Salem took two majors, that it’s just a given that Bayo doesn’t lose any MUs. It’s the biggest example of community question begging I’ve seen lately,

I think Aba’s tweet from around that time that detailed characters that can do alright versus Bayo is pretty accurate. I wish I wasn’t at work so I could dig it up. But really, if you have a character that can control the pace, force her to approach, and push her to swing for kills, and punish hard, I’d put your character in the “at least 5:5” camp.

Basically, Diddy, Sheik, Cloud, Mewtwo and Pika, probably, have a really good chance I’m my brain of eventually being seen as winning MUs as the tide of opinion undulates. Maybe Rosa, too.

 

[Lord Dio]

oh boy esam vs dabuz for the 3rd time this season

 

[Rizen]

And with that, let's discuss whether Diddy beats Bayo

I don't play either character so take this with a grain of salt.
is a neutral monster, as explained in this post. He's one of the few characters who can play safe and deadly at the same time vs Bayo. His burst game is great, Dtilt and nanners have very little commitment, good grab game all around and he can seal stocks- that's huge.
Diddy's disadvantage isn't as crippling as some think. Low air speed is covered by monkey flips, his upB can be steered and isn't linear and he's very quick.

has the range advantage and better reward to risk ratio. That's the thing about bayo, she can turn disadvantage into a stock loss for the opponent. There's a lot of theory about various characters beating bayo but she has incredibly reward off minor risk. You have to not be read or left open at all. She also is devastating offstage while being almost impossibly to intercept. So bayo wins in advantage and disadvantage.
Her neutral isn't bad, she has to play like a zoner/bait and punish rather than outspeeding.

It really comes down to who plays better. Bayo seemingly loses yet punishes hard and has a crazy advantage state. It's a battle of extremely good states; neutral for Diddy, advantage for Bayo. Neither of them have huge weaknesses, unlike DK/Bowser, which leads to intense games where anything can happen. As weird as it seems with them being so different, imo the match is even.


tl;dr even.

 

[|RK|]

Ugh, Rich Brown in game 4 against Salem was sooo close to closing out against Salem. I was yelling at the screen for an Upsmash about four times.

As a side note:
I don’t think Bayo beats Diddy. I think there is this paradigm in Smash 4, that ever since Salem took two majors, that it’s just a given that Bayo doesn’t lose any MUs. It’s the biggest example of community question begging I’ve seen lately,

I think Aba’s tweet from around that time that detailed characters that can do alright versus Bayo is pretty accurate. I wish I wasn’t at work so I could dig it up. But really, if you have a character that can control the pace, force her to approach, and push her to swing for kills, and punish hard, I’d put your character in the “at least 5:5” camp.

Basically, Diddy, Sheik, Cloud, Mewtwo and Pika, probably, have a really good chance I’m my brain of eventually being seen as winning MUs as the tide of opinion undulates. Maybe Rosa, too.

I 100% agree with this. I've been saying for a while that we go through this cycle where we think a character loses to no one, then find out it may not be the case.

Separately, Lucario does about as well as Mewtwo in the Bayo MU (and he was on Abadango's list). He fits all the criteria above, tbh. And he's smaller than Mewtwo + heavier.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I 100% agree with this. I've been saying for a while that we go through this cycle where we think a character loses to no one, then find out it may not be the case.

Separately, Lucario does about as well as Mewtwo in the Bayo MU (and he was on Abadango's list). He fits all the criteria above, tbh. And he's smaller than Mewtwo + heavier.

Then Lima 3-0's Deathorse aftet the latter got the upset Mistake at Canada cup yesterday.

You could he during the Mistake/Deathorse set that Mistake was playing really off nearly the entire time. He definetly looked like he was shook after getting 2-stocked game 1.


I am not saying the Bayo/Mewtwo MU will not look better for Mewtwo over time. But I can't see the MU as more than even yet..


Also Lima 3-0 Ally eliminating him. Meaning Venom is the only Canadain player left in Canada cup top 8

Update. and Venom is out.. Still I guess Canada did allright, with canadians making top 8

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Lima 3-2 Zinoto

Lima 3-2 Larry Lurr

Lima just seems to be on a roll today.

 

[TDK]

Bayo vs Diddy depends on the players involved a lot, I'd say it's even.


Canada Cup 2017 (190 Entrants) (Eastern Canada)

1st: MKLeo
2nd: Lima
3rd: Larry Lurr
4th: Zinoto
5th: Ally
5th: Venom
7th: Deathorse
7th: SuperGirlKels

 

[Illusion.]

Megafox 2-0 Ned

 

[Aaron1997]

Trela2-0 ZeRo

 

[Wintermelon43]

Trela2-0 ZeRo

Wait, so Trela came out of a 8 month long retirement... and then beat the #1 player in the world?

Wow that is impressive.

 

[Illusion.]

Karna 2-1 Konga
Nicko 2-0 Ned

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Bayo vs Diddy depends on the players involved a lot, I'd say it's even.

Well Zack just beat Dyr 3-1 fairly convincingly. So I think you may be right that the MU is around even and who comes out on top depends mostly on the players

 

[Heracr055]

Trela's biggest block to success is expecting too much of himself imo, and getting down when he doesn't do as well as he wanted. He should just compete with no expectations and he'll do just fine.

 

[|RK|]

Trela's biggest block to success is expecting too much of himself imo, and getting down when he doesn't do as well as he wanted. He should just compete with no expectations and he'll do just fine.

He knows that for himself. That's why they say friendlies Trela is broken.

I think that's why Trela left, tbh.

 

[The-Technique]

I would lean towards Marth/Lucina and Corrin doing okay against Bayo as well.

Also looking like Mario has an equally cruddy matchup versus Bayo as he does Sonic.

And Shulk is now 4-1 vs top Clouds.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

a MU that actullay seems to be going pretty good for Bayo is Sheik

Its a similar situation with Sheik vs ZSS to where in theory Sheik should win. However recently Bayo mains have been do8ng very Well vs Sheik. Including such upsets as Mysterica beating Void at FE saga. Also I am not sure on who Javi used, but he lost to JK 2-0 today at Clutch City Clash.

 

[The-Technique]

apparently Javi went all Sheik this tournament

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Would this be considered an upset?

JK 3-2 Elegant


JK is in GF winners side at Clutch City Clash. wow

 

[Jaguar360]

https://smash.gg/tournament/tgl-pg-present-too-hot-to-handle/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/165933
Too Hot To Handle (208 entrants) (Florida)
1. Manny [Dabuz]
2. Dabuz [Manny x2]
3. ESAM ,, [Dabuz, Manny]
4. Captain Zack ,, [ESAM x2]
5. Salem [dyr, ESAM]
5. dyr [Manny, Captain Zack]
7. Cashmere [Dabuz, Salem]
7. MattyG , [Dabuz, Captain Zack]
9. Mr. Riddle , [Samsora, MattyG]
9. Mr. E [dyr, Captain Zack]
9. Rich Brown [ESAM, Salem]
9. Samsora [Manny, Cashmere]
13. MVD [MattyG, Cashmere]
13. RiotLettuce [8BitMan, Rich Brown]
13. Blank [Salem, Mr. E]
13. 8BitMan , [Manny, Mr. Riddle]

 

[The-Technique]

Zero gets knocked into loser's by a Ryu and 3-0's them in the runback. Is a pattern developing here?