Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

I'm curious about what gives Link an edge over Toon Link, as well as input on what makes DK more difficult than some other characters.

DK's punish game is rather potent on Shulk in a lot of areas, especially if Shulk is unfortunate enough to be in Buster. SHAC bair, intangible utilt and pivot grab make jumping and landing pretty tough against DK at times, and Shulk has a rather generous Ding-Dong percent window. Shulk juggles DK to hell, abuses his horrible ledge getup options well and can edgeguard him if done carefully but it's a pretty dumb matchup. Using MALLC is very important if you want DK to respect your spacing to the max, similar rule for the Bowser MU.

Link similarly has damaging conversions, mostly off bombs and dthrow. He has better tools for camping/punishing Shulk in Shield Art, due to faster arrows/longer ranged grab. Link also has much more threatening range and anti-air tools in spite of his worse mobility, and if he keeps a bomb for the right time he can avoid getting gimped especially if he mixes it up with zair or Spin Attack. It's a pretty volatile but very enjoyable MU. Good sets to watch would be M vs Izaw at Smashlanda, Nicko vs Scizor at MSM 63 and Tremendo Dude vs Sova Unknown at Glitch low tiers.

 

[PK Gaming]

When a character loses only to (arguable) top tiers and goes even or wins against everyone else I would consider that a high tier character.
It's probably some basic philophy discussion inherented in this.
If a character were even with everyone, would he be a top tier character?
Losing MUs are more of a roadblock than even MUs. Winning MUs make your bracket life more consistent.

It depends on the type of game

Losing to the majority of top tier characters in Smash 4 is absolutely not the sign of a high tier character imo

One could even make the argument that a character like that is barely viable at high level play

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Zard/Rosa? Eh?

As a Zard main...

Still pretty bad and frustrating.

But Zard has a couple of tricks here and there. Rock Smash is a surprisingly effective tool against Luma (I've had it die in one hit before) and Bair gets some use as a spacing tool. Flamethrower can be used to trap and damage both of them on occasion.

That said, Luma is still annoying to deal with and Rosalina can do pretty much anything she wants as soon as Charizard is stuck to the ledge. Takes a hard read for Charizard to get back safely, but he has the tools to do it better than DK or Bowser.

It's one of his worse matchups and can be painful, but it isn't as bad as some of the other heavies.

 

[ReRaze]

View attachment 121525

After Nicko uploaded his MU chart for Shulk, I thought I'd post my own thoughts. I'm already treading thin ice since this is a yellow topic but I thought I'd go for it anyway.

I also dislike using numbers for MU charts so I decided to take this sort of approach instead. You can probably figure out what MU is meant to represent from the descriptions but I'll explain anything if anybody has any questions.

To sum up other thoughts:

• Shulk does not have any matchups better than 60:40/+2/whatever.
• will pretty much always be roadblocks for him at top level play.
  
• is considered an even MU for Shulk by many, but in my experience Shulk has trouble safely approaching a campy Cloud, and Cloud's great ledgetrap game is a problem for Shulk as well. He can contest him in neutral very well with Speed, Jump and for the most part make's Cloud's life miserable offstage but it feels like a struggle to poke Cloud's shield most of the time or get him into disadvantage.

One thing I really appreciate about this MU chart is the amount of characters you have in "???"
Not many people are willing to admit they don't know an MU resulting in alot of inaccurate placements or inconsistencies in MU charts. "Hmmm I haven't played that many Pits well he's like 50/50 with everyone so it should be the same for my char"
Kudos to you for not doing that~

 

[Diamond Octobot]

View attachment 121525

After Nicko uploaded his MU chart for Shulk, I thought I'd post my own thoughts. I'm already treading thin ice since this is a yellow topic but I thought I'd go for it anyway.

I also dislike using numbers for MU charts so I decided to take this sort of approach instead. You can probably figure out what MU is meant to represent from the descriptions but I'll explain anything if anybody has any questions.

To sum up other thoughts:

• Shulk does not have any matchups better than 60:40/+2/whatever.
• will pretty much always be roadblocks for him at top level play.
  
• is considered an even MU for Shulk by many, but in my experience Shulk has trouble safely approaching a campy Cloud, and Cloud's great ledgetrap game is a problem for Shulk as well. He can contest him in neutral very well with Speed, Jump and for the most part make's Cloud's life miserable offstage but it feels like a struggle to poke Cloud's shield most of the time or get him into disadvantage.

I kinda think Shulk has an advantage on Mega Man... Don't get me wrong, his projectiles are still very good, but Shulk has the ability to slice right through them, which means combos if he gets an aerial out at the right time. And given how hard it is for Megs to get out of his disadvantaged state, Shulk can start comboing (or linking aerials at least).

 

[Deleted member]

One thing I really appreciate about this MU chart is the amount of characters you have in "???"
Not many people are willing to admit they don't know an MU resulting in alot of inaccurate placements or inconsistencies in MU charts. "Hmmm I haven't played that many Pits well he's like 50/50 with everyone so it should be the same for my char"
Kudos to you for not doing that~

Many thanks, my man.

I dislike that in matchup charts as well. Didn't want to guesstimate, honestly feels pretty disingenuous.

I kinda think Shulk has an advantage on Mega Man... Don't get me wrong, his projectiles are still very good, but Shulk has the ability to slice right through them, which means combos if he gets an aerial out at the right time. And given how hard it is for Megs to get out of his disadvantaged state, Shulk can start comboing (or linking aerials at least).

I can see what you mean, but to me it feels like Shulk has trouble safely approaching Megs, especially since pellets cover a character like Shulk who likes to jump a lot really well. Shulk does have his aerials in Buster that go through pellets, but they're pretty slow on startup and Buster bair is the only one practical for doing so considering its absurd range. Tru4 vs Kameme at SmashDown World is a pretty good game that showcases the matchup.

 

[Wintermelon43]

One thing I really appreciate about this MU chart is the amount of characters you have in "???"
Not many people are willing to admit they don't know an MU resulting in alot of inaccurate placements or inconsistencies in MU charts. "Hmmm I haven't played that many Pits well he's like 50/50 with everyone so it should be the same for my char"
Kudos to you for not doing that~

And then it's even worse when they think like "Oh, Puff? Well, she is a bottom tier....... So I suppose it must be 65:35"

 

[Deleted member]

So, this just happened.

These were extremely fun Finals, by the way.

 

[Solfiner]

Mega Man vs Shulk is really fun imo because Shulk can get multiple extenders on the pellets with bair. Overall it's probably even or slightly in Shulk's favor. MM does have the tools to keep Shulk out pretty well but speed and buster can really mess him up a lot in neutral. Offstage is also pretty easy for Shulk.

 

[TDK]

I'd make a Link MU chart but there's only like 5 matchups I'm sure about so:

+1 Matchup vs
-1 (Yes Mobility Matters)
-2 Matchup vs

 

[Deleted member]

I'd make a Link MU chart but there's only like 5 matchups I'm sure about so:

+1 Matchup vs
-1 (Yes Mobility Matters)
-2 Matchup vs

Ness and Mario are that bad for Link?

 

[TDK]

Ness and Mario are that bad for Link?

While this holds true for a lot of characters, Mario outbuttons you once he's in your range and because he's so fast and damaging things can turn really bad quickly once he's in. It's also surprisingly hard to keep mario out because Cape is a free win vs Link's projectile game, and he can get in past your sword really easy because of how fast he is and just outbutton you.


He's also really really good at outbuttoning you, nair out of shield is really good and stuffs pretty much all our moves, he can heal off the bomb, and it's hard to abuse rage when a back throw still ends your stock at just over 100 with some rage. He's slightly easier to keep out than Mario but he can still get in because he beats out your sword more often than not unless he runs into it. PK Thunder also screws with out recovery a lot.

If anything, those are the only two matchups I think we have a -2 against, but maybe I'm just optimistic.

 

[Luco]

Be sure to tune into SXC this weekend guys! Plenty of Aussie top talent will be there so it's looking to be a hype major for us. Stream can be found here: http://www.twitch.tv/kaizmo

Also I've never found Ness Link to be a +2 MU, I think although we do a fantastic job at high level of manouvering around / capitalising on bombs, Link has polarising anti-approach tools that whilst volatile can be really powerful (getting grabbed by link is actually really sucky). Projectiles that aren't bombs are also still difficult for Ness but we edge-guard him pretty crazily and our good OoS and punish game really help which is why I doubt it's a +2 at highest levels of play.

 

[L9999]

And then it's even worse when they think like "Oh, Puff? Well, she is a bottom tier....... So I suppose it must be 65:35"

Jigglypuff is bottom tier because her overall MU spread sucks. Her weaknesses give her bad MUs. That is why they rate her in 6:4 in MU charts. Now, list me at least 5 MUs that are not negative for Puff.

 

[Krysco]

How easy is it for Link to stop Ness' recovery? I've seen clips of matches where an arrow can clank with PKT before it touches Ness and a boomerang or bombs possibly could too or perhaps a boomerang into the stage so the windbox pushes him away. Do any of the projectiles cause PKT2 to get its distance cut in half or would Link have to jump into it? Not that gimping makes an entire mu but Ness' recovery is pretty susceptible to it.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

ESAM just posted the top tiers for his new 1.1.6 tier list

He put and as the best in the game now. So the two characters I use. Umm Thanks ESAM?

I get the suspicion that he only put Mario that high cause of bias due to the bad MU has with the plumber

Speaking of which what surprised me is that he put Pika fairly low compared to his last list which he put his main in the top 4.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Jigglypuff is bottom tier because her overall MU spread sucks. Her weaknesses give her bad MUs. That is why they rate her in 6:4 in MU charts. Now, list me at least 5 MUs that are not negative for Puff.

I don't think they're suggesting her MU spread isn't terrible. Rather, they're not happy with folks who have no experience with or against Puff assuming that they automatically have a good MU against her solely because she's bottom tier without actually considering how the individual MU works.

In general, assuming you'll do well against a character solely due to being higher ranked than them on the tier list is a very risky stance to take.

 

[TDK]

How easy is it for Link to stop Ness' recovery? I've seen clips of matches where an arrow can clank with PKT before it touches Ness and a boomerang or bombs possibly could too or perhaps a boomerang into the stage so the windbox pushes him away. Do any of the projectiles cause PKT2 to get its distance cut in half or would Link have to jump into it? Not that gimping makes an entire mu but Ness' recovery is pretty susceptible to it.

Ness's recovery is always succeptible, yeah, but PKT1 can make recovering or getting down vs Ness something really hard.

 

[★ARKZ AGES★]

...folks who have no experience with or against Puff assuming that they automatically have a good MU against her solely because she's bottom tier without actually considering how the individual MU works.

This is exactly what I got sick of with people back when Puff was one of my mains. When I first joined my local a couple years back people got so confident they could beat me just because I played Puff. I whooped them but it wasn't something I let pass by.

 

[Luco]

How easy is it for Link to stop Ness' recovery? I've seen clips of matches where an arrow can clank with PKT before it touches Ness and a boomerang or bombs possibly could too or perhaps a boomerang into the stage so the windbox pushes him away. Do any of the projectiles cause PKT2 to get its distance cut in half or would Link have to jump into it? Not that gimping makes an entire mu but Ness' recovery is pretty susceptible to it.

It's theoretically possible to use Link's projectiles to stop PKT1/2 but with the exception of bomb they're relatively simplistic edge-guarding methods that Ness should be able to avoid, although in some cases doing so will leave him open for other edge-guarding methods, but I feel Link's most effective way of edge-guarding Ness is also his most vulnerable one - BSD PKT gimp or going for a Fair / Dair. Frankly Link's ledge-guarding options and trapping / pressure scares me more than his physical edge-guards, although like most characters and especially projectile ones he does force us to recover in a different way than "normal".

 

[L9999]

How easy is it for Link to stop Ness' recovery? I've seen clips of matches where an arrow can clank with PKT before it touches Ness and a boomerang or bombs possibly could too or perhaps a boomerang into the stage so the windbox pushes him away. Do any of the projectiles cause PKT2 to get its distance cut in half or would Link have to jump into it? Not that gimping makes an entire mu but Ness' recovery is pretty susceptible to it.

In matches when people aren't messing around arrows are not a factor in edgegarding Ness. Ness can recover below and why would Link waste time with arrows when he should be throwing boomerangs or be at the edge? Unless the Ness player is very ********, Boomerang won't gimp Ness' recovery any time soon. The thing with Link is that he falls like a brick, and while he can edgeguard, he much rather ledgeguard, because he has all the tools at his disposal. Not saying his Fair or Dair is bad offstage, just saying his ledge game is better and much less risky.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Obligated to post this, I almost agree with Esam on Pikachu's placement but there are some things like what he said about edgeguarding and disadvantage. Sheik's edgeguarding is at least as good as Pikachu's and Bayonetta's disadvantage is probably better. Also, is up throw thunder actually true? I know hes been consistently landing it but I don't know the science behind it..

 

[Krysco]

Ness's recovery is always succeptible, yeah, but PKT1 can make recovering or getting down vs Ness something really hard.

It's theoretically possible to use Link's projectiles to stop PKT1/2 but with the exception of bomb they're relatively simplistic edge-guarding methods that Ness should be able to avoid, although in some cases doing so will leave him open for other edge-guarding methods, but I feel Link's most effective way of edge-guarding Ness is also his most vulnerable one - BSD PKT gimp or going for a Fair / Dair. Frankly Link's ledge-guarding options and trapping / pressure scares me more than his physical edge-guards, although like most characters and especially projectile ones he does force us to recover in a different way than "normal".

In matches when people aren't messing around arrows are not a factor in edgegarding Ness. Ness can recover below and why would Link waste time with arrows when he should be throwing boomerangs or be at the edge? Unless the Ness player is very ********, Boomerang won't gimp Ness' recovery any time soon. The thing with Link is that he falls like a brick, and while he can edgeguard, he much rather ledgeguard, because he has all the tools at his disposal. Not saying his Fair or Dair is bad offstage, just saying his ledge game is better and much less risky.

I'm not surprised that his ledgeguarding is more optimal but with Ness' recovery being vulnerable and it being basically THE point focused on anytime the Rosa and possibly even the Lucas or Villager mu are brought up (mostly the first one), I figured I'd see if Link has anything worth going for. Seems like the best thing to do for Ness is to recover low since the only thing Link really has to reach down there is dair, bombs and possibly a ff nair. What's BSD? Bomb slide dash or something? His jcit with bombs? Or something else?

I find for most characters in this game that going for ledgeguards is better than going for edgeguards though I've found a decent balance of success for both with Roy. Run off fair or if you read an air dodge there's bair or Blazer. Counter for recoveries with hitboxes. Dair if you're crazy (the sourspot on that move is so dumb). Ledgeguarding has nair, jab, ftilt, dtilt, usmash and fsmash. Only a few characters come to mind where edgeguarding would be better like Puff and Pika.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Obligated to post this, I almost agree with Esam on Pikachu's placement but there are some things like what he said about edgeguarding and disadvantage. Sheik's edgeguarding is at least as good as Pikachu's and Bayonetta's disadvantage is probably better. Also, is up throw thunder actually true? I know hes been consistently landing it but I don't know the science behind it..

Ok. just maybe.. but being the best in game and in a tier abobe the other top tiers I am pretty skeptical about. Maybe its bias on ESAM's end due to the bad MU with Pika? Since that is closest explaination I can think of on why he put Mario that high.

 

[Luco]

I'm not surprised that his ledgeguarding is more optimal but with Ness' recovery being vulnerable and it being basically THE point focused on anytime the Rosa and possibly even the Lucas or Villager mu are brought up (mostly the first one), I figured I'd see if Link has anything worth going for. Seems like the best thing to do for Ness is to recover low since the only thing Link really has to reach down there is dair, bombs and possibly a ff nair. What's BSD? Bomb slide dash or something? His jcit with bombs? Or something else?

I find for most characters in this game that going for ledgeguards is better than going for edgeguards though I've found a decent balance of success for both with Roy. Run off fair or if you read an air dodge there's bair or Blazer. Counter for recoveries with hitboxes. Dair if you're crazy (the sourspot on that move is so dumb). Ledgeguarding has nair, jab, ftilt, dtilt, usmash and fsmash. Only a few characters come to mind where edgeguarding would be better like Puff and Pika.

Beefy Smash Doods made a video on gimping Ness which is Ness is recovering in the usual manner, you AD past him and get zapped by PKT1 leaving Ness to fall to his death. It requires Ness to be in that specific spot though and if Ness does anything with his PKt that isn't turning it in the tightest circle possible then it's fine. It's annoying but is mostly better for dealing with lower level Nesses.

Also in an edit you can't tag people but in response to Guavo, Pika's Uthrow thunder is true just difficult. There was a big argument about it ages back which A10 pretty much put to rest (love that guy).

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ok. just maybe.. but being the best in game and in a tier abobe the other top tiers I am pretty skeptical about. Maybe its bias on ESAM's end due to the bad MU with Pika? Since that is closest explaination I can think of on why he put Mario that high.

Its fairly obvious that his Mario placement is skewed by personal problems with the character. Mario loses to how many of the top/high tiers again? Corrin, cloud, marth, sheik, bayonetta, sonic, rosalina, and lucina, anyone else? There's also random mid tiers like Ike and Luigi. I just can't see Mario being no. 1

 

[Rizen]

IMO vs (and ) is -1 or slight disadvantage for .

All Link's projectiles are useful including arrows. If Link launches Ness offstage he can SH/jump fire an arrow and it gets good distance with a downward curve. Link can hold the arrow to adjust the distance and catch dodges. You can space arrows to shoot past a ledge and drop under it. The main use for this is when Link needs to get to the ledge from across the stage after launching.
Projectiles can stop PKT1 at the head and Link can throw out a boomerang and arrows at once for decent walling of recoveries with no risk to himself. It's hard to hit PKT1 but you're still forcing Ness to take evasive action and possibly eat his 2nd jump in the process. Bombs are nice for baiting magnet then using another projectile/Zair.

A huge element in this MU no one mentioned is Link's Nair. It eats PKT1's head and Link can equip his iron boots aka fast fall it. Nair is great off stage for gimping Ness and returning down to the stage if Ness uses PKT. Ness' Uair is pretty crazy so Link has to make sure Ness isn't going for that. Pulling bombs above Ness is suicide but if Ness is dumb and tries to magnet bombs from below Link gets a free Dair for more damage than Ness heals. Nair can combo into Dash Attack and run>upB on the ground so Link can pose a threat above Ness if Ness gets reckless.
Dair is good at catching 2 frame snaps if Ness starts it from far from the ledge. PKT2 is scary and Link needs to pay attention to the spacing; I've been on the wrong end of that.

When Link's offstage Ness' Fair is hell to deal with. PKT's tail is a pain too but Link can Dair bounce if Ness is predictable with it. If Link pulls a bomb when he's launched PKT1 won't kill him. IMO PKT isn't nearly as scary as Ness' aerials, namely F/U/Nair. Ness has good movement coverage but he can get gimped by a returning boomerang. Link must be very careful to only throw it out at a safe distance.

As Luco mentioned Link get good reward off grabbing Ness. After 20% he can Utilt, then FH Nair, then Uair. Ness' Bthrow is better though. Being able to end a stock from grab at relatively low %s takes away Link's weight advantage.

Ness's buttons are good and his disjoint from things like Fair paired with better mobility and weaving is hard for Link to deal with. The MU would be pretty bad if Link couldn't force Ness to approach. Both characters have nasty punishes on each other but I feel Ness has a slightly easier time with less risk. It's a momentum based, highly punishing MU.

 

[TDK]

Decided to go look through ESAM's tier list and find some strange opinions.

's Bombs and bomb conversions are worse than 's
gets outcomboed by a majority of the cast.
Waft is the best single kill move in the game
<
up throw fair is a tight window and inconsistent
Rango is the only Ike Main (He probably just forgot San)
Roy has a decent amount of representation (He has less than Link ._.)
is a Low Tier And on the same level as
does so much Shield Damage (While I don't entirely disagree with this [I agree with it], I'm putting it on here because a lot of other characters below her have the same factor, so he falls victim to the precieved notion of they're "worse" chars so Samus's shield damage is better.)

This is all just from the low tiers.

 

[Deleted member]

One of the things that annoyed me most was how ESAM called Shulk a "worse version" of Cloud when the two characters have completely different gameplans. :/

 

[TDK]

Probably my biggest gripe with is was I was listening to him describe Toon Link when just about everything he said about Toon Link applies to Link to a certain extent.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Also in an edit you can't tag people but in response to Guavo, Pika's Uthrow thunder is true just difficult. There was a big argument about it ages back which A10 pretty much put to rest (love that guy).

Is it a 50/50, kill confirm, or does it vary depending on reaction times? I assume it varies but if anyone can confirm that would be great.

Maybe big tournaments actually do need to start drug testing, some characters benefit a ton from ridiculous reactions. Imagine a little mac player like sol with adderal powered reactions, would probably just run through Genesis like a freight train

 

[The-Technique]

I see Esam whiff more U-throw Thunder's than he lands, to be honest. Isn't it only a true combo with a bidou set up?

 

[|RK|]

I see Esam whiff more U-throw Thunder's than he lands, to be honest. Isn't it only a true combo with a bidou set up?

^^^I meant to ask this!

I noticed that he managed to get this setup a lot at Shine... on everyone but ZeRo. Why was that?

 

[★ARKZ AGES★]

Esam definitely has some kind of wizard work going on. In my experience you can just do simple DI to get away from the thunder.

 

[Zelder]

Its fairly obvious that his Mario placement is skewed by personal problems with the character. Mario loses to how many of the top/high tiers again? Corrin, cloud, marth, sheik, bayonetta, sonic, rosalina, and lucina, anyone else? There's also random mid tiers like Ike and Luigi. I just can't see Mario being no. 1

Mario doesn't lose to Marth, Sheik, Rosa, Lucina, or Ike. Especially not Ike. How'd you even land on Mario losing to Ike? What.

He's one of the top tiers better suited to fighting Bayonetta, in my opinion. It's not a winning matchup, it's even, or at least as even as one can hope to go with Bayonetta.

Sonic is a bad matchup, Corrin is a losing matchup, Luigi is irritating but doable, and cloud is volatile as heck but in Cloud's favor.


I'm telling you, the way people talk about Mario in this thread, you'd think he was a mid tier.


edit: this is a second thought, and it's late night rambling, so it might not make a lot of sense. Mario (in Smash4) is a top tier character who goes even with/beats a lot of people, but there are very few (relevant) characters that he blows out of the water. I think this causes people to downplay him, despite his results and placings, because in past Smash games, top tier characters tended to utterly dominate the field of characters. I think we as Smash players are unaccustomed to the idea of a top tier "only" going even/good with most of the cast. Going even is good! It means you can generally rely on the character to win a matchup, if you're the better player.

I also think that we as Smash players are generally unaccustomed to the idea of a relatively balanced Smash game, but that's a different ramble for a different late night.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Mario doesn't lose to Marth, Rosa, Lucina.

Ehhhhh.....I like the content of your post a lot but this small snip is very debateable.

 

[Deleted member]

What data is there to show Marthcina beats Mario?

 

[|RK|]

Funny you guys say that now

https://twitter.com/C9AlIy/status/804548326217699328 (Ally played Leo tonight)

EDIT: Tourney is still going on. Mr. R reset bracket against Leo.

https://www.twitch.tv/events2compete

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

What data is there to show Marthcina beats Mario?

These are the most recent sets I'm able (and willing, as it is rather late) to find. There's also a very close set from winners of the same tournament that Ally takes, but in a close game 5.

I do think Marth has an edge in the match up, but it's nothing more than 6:4 at best, and Mario isn't a character you can sleep on either, but the ability to very effectively wall Mario out and prevent him from being able to out-button you is an advantage that not many characters can say they have.

 

[FeelMeUp]

What is with top players panicking and DIing MK's Uair back onto stage after the 2nd/3rd hit? You shouldn't be "mixing it up" after you set MK up for a stock trade situation.
starting to wonder how many games are going to be dropped because people didn't commit to the direction that'd give them damage instead of death.