Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[my_T]

Just by analyzing both characters tools and frame data it's pretty obvious that Mario loses to Marcina and it's been like this ever since Marcina got their buffs. I'm really curious as to what people see in this MU that leads them to believe that Mario doesn't lose.

Somebody care to explain?

and Mario not losing to Rosa and Cloud? Is there some sort of secret Mario tech that I don't know about?

 

[|RK|]

Just by analyzing both characters tools and frame data it's pretty obvious that Mario loses to Marcina and it's been like this ever since Marcina got their buffs. I'm really curious as to what people see in this MU that leads them to believe that Mario doesn't lose.

Somebody care to explain?

and Mario not losing to Rosa and Cloud? Is there some sort of secret Mario tech that I don't know about?

Tbh, I think MUs between top characters are good that way. They take a little longer to change until we have solid proof. People are still feeling out Marcina's capabilities, so no one was going to say the MU was anything other than Mario's favor until we got more top level games to show otherwise. Slowly starting to mount, though.

 

[Das Koopa]

Leo is 5-2 in sets with Mr. R and 3-3 in sets with Ally now. In 2016, anyway. Leo's 7-2 on Mr. R total lol

 

[ぱみゅ]

Just by analyzing both characters tools and frame data it's pretty obvious that Mario loses to Marcina and it's been like this ever since Marcina got their buffs. I'm really curious as to what people see in this MU that leads them to believe that Mario doesn't lose.

Somebody care to explain?

and Mario not losing to Rosa and Cloud? Is there some sort of secret Mario tech that I don't know about?

Mario has ridiculous conversions when he gets in ONCE, while Marcina's disadvantaged state is abysmal (seriously, it should be abused more). I can see it being even, though I still believe it's a slight advantage for the Falchions.
As for Cloud, Mario abuses his offstage game pretty badly, even FLUDD can screw him when he's recovering without Limit. Again, I can see both sides, I could believe it's either advantage for Cloud and even.
I don't know the Mario/Rosa matchup.

Leo is 5-2 in sets with Mr. R and 2-2 in sets with Ally now. In 2016, anyway. Leo's 7-2 on Mr. R total lol

iirc, Leo lost GOML, the Rio invitational, and one set on Canada Cup, while he won two sets in Canada Cup and this one.

 

[Das Koopa]

My bad, I meant 3-3 in sets.

 

[TDK]

I don't know the Mario/Rosa matchup.

Obviously not the best Rosa main in the thread but from my experience Rosa both keeps him out and can sort of outbutton him while killing him pretty early. Just my thoughts though.

 

[my_T]

Marcina, Cloud, and Rosa can exploit Marios' disadvantage quite well because of the range, disjoint, FAF, and end-lag on there moves. Tbh Marios' high damage output is the only thing keeping these MU's from being hard loses. They clearly have the edge in neutral which means that they will likely have a lot more opportunities to exploit Marios disadvantage than he will have to exploit theirs which means they are more likely to win

 

[ReRaze]

What is with top players panicking and DIing MK's Uair back onto stage after the 2nd/3rd hit? You shouldn't be "mixing it up" after you set MK up for a stock trade situation.
starting to wonder how many games are going to be dropped because people didn't commit to the direction that'd give them damage instead of death.

I mean, at the same time, DI completely towards the blast zone would potentially make it easier for Nair to kill though.
I get why you might want to mix it up and hope the MK messes up in that scenario.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Nair won't usually kill in that scenario with SDI down/up and away. and even if it does have a risk of doing so, you can normally force a stock trade with going up or shifting your direction before the final Uair before nair.
You normally see the uair nair stuff happen on SV and T&C, but if you're at super low % vs rage MK it's best to go for horizontal survival rather than vertical mixups because Nair's interaction with rage isn't broken like Shuttle Loop's is.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Couldn't MK chain reverse upairs into a backair though? Because bair is pretty broken with rage.

 

[FeelMeUp]

yeah, but at that point you'll already see him turned around for the reverse uairs and be able to DI in order to avoid the bair accordingly. he can't quickly turn around mid uair chain if you're being combo'd horizontally in order to mix up your DI. if that were possible MK would be even more terrifying than now.
once he commits to the reverse uairs it becomes much easier to DI above his head in order to avoid all followups.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

If you DI above his head then couldn't he just Brawl rufio you? Unless you have some sort of burst option it seems like it would at least be a 50/50

Maybe I should lab MK more

 

[Bowserboy3]

Mario doesn't lose to Marth, Sheik, Rosa, Lucina

Somebody clearly takes #esamopinions way too seriously.

---

Something I have seen Leo do a lot in the Mario MU in regards to spacing is using a SHFF Fair; essentially short hopping, and at the peak of the jump, Fair and fast fall, as opposed doing an instant short hop Fair.

This method of spacing is pretty much impossible for characters to punish (including Mario, and it likely the reason why Leo makes the Mario MU look horrendous; he's playing it right), and in reality, is the preferred spacing option with Fair. It's something I've adopted into my playstyle a lot more over these past few weeks. It's less laggy, and leaves you less vulnerable. Even if you land a sourspot closer to the mid of the sword, it's still quite tough to punish. It's much safer in general than a rising SH Fair, and arguably even FH Fair followed by a falling Nair.

What's more, because you didn't commit to the Fair straight out of the short hop, you can decide/react mid jump, so you can tomahawk grab. This is a pretty nice option (not that tomahawk grabbing is a new breakthrough option, but it's something that I don't see enough Marth's doing).

Leo is just essentially playing Marth better than all other Marth players; he's optimised his options far more than anybody else. This is why some players sometimes say "It's just Leo being good, not Marth", for example. No, it's that Leo has developed the best options for the character. If anything, Marth players should start taking huge notes from Leo. He's taking the Marth meta in the direction it needs to be going.

Something else that dawned on me too, and props to him for showing us, but Leo showed us Marth really can play dumb and time Mario out if he wants to. Marth has the disjoint to discourage approach options from Mario, and is also faster than him, so it makes it easy for Marth to run away if he wants. No projectile can make this harder than traditional (non Sonic) camping, but it's not a huge issue, especially on stages with platforms, which is over 75% of the stage list.

My two cents on the Marth:Mario MU? Pretty close, but a slight edge to Marth. I'd put it at around 55:45.

 

[bc1910]

^^^I meant to ask this!

I noticed that he managed to get this setup a lot at Shine... on everyone but ZeRo. Why was that?

I'm not going to get sucked into an argument about Uthrow Thunder but I have been thinking about this too. I will post the situation as I understand it.

Uthrow Thunder is a true combo and not a 50/50 at some percents. To achieve this, you have to be almost frame perfect.

The correct way to DI is behind Pikachu as this forces him to waste a frame turning around before dashing. ZeRo undoubtedly knows this (though he mixed up his DI from time to time to throw ESAM off).

I don't think there's a purely scientific reason for it working on everyone except ZeRo; frame data is frame data is frame data. It could work on ZeRo like everyone else. Uthrow is not weight dependent so it's nothing to do with Diddy's weight.

I think it comes down to ZeRo giving himself more chance to escape than everyone else and, potentially, ESAM's tiredness after two long days of tourney level play creating greater inconsistency.

 

[Deleted member]

Even if I'm mostly a Marth pessimist, I can't deny the character puts in the work and has some seriously dumb tools that a lot of characters wish they could have.

Having a safe poke in neutral that most of the cast can't properly challenge (retreating nair), excellent edgeguarding and downright one of the best jabs in the game, converting into grabs or kills and being safe on shield if tippered. Dancing Blade has its connecting issues but it's good as a quick punish and for killing if you get tipper DB4.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Somebody clearly takes #esamopinions way too seriously.

---

Something I have seen Leo do a lot in the Mario MU in regards to spacing is using a SHFF Fair; essentially short hopping, and at the peak of the jump, Fair and fast fall, as opposed doing an instant short hop Fair.

This method of spacing is pretty much impossible for characters to punish (including Mario, and it likely the reason why Leo makes the Mario MU look horrendous; he's playing it right), and in reality, is the preferred spacing option with Fair. It's something I've adopted into my playstyle a lot more over these past few days. It's less laggy, and leaves you less vulnerable. Even if you land a sourspot closer to the mid of the sword, it's still quite tough to punish. It's much safe in general than a rising SH Fair, and arguably even FH Fair followed by a falling Nair.

What's more, because you didn't commit to the Fair straight out of the short hop, you can decide/react mid jump, so you can tomahawk grab. This is a pretty nice option (not that tomahawk grabbing is a new breakthrough option, but it's something that I don't see enough Marth's doing).

Leo is just essentially playing Marth better than all other Marth players; he's optimised his options far more than anybody else. This is why some players sometimes say "It's just Leo being good, not Marth", for example. No, it's that Leo has developed the best options for the character. If anything, Marth players should start taking huge notes from Leo. He's taking the Marth meta in the direction it needs to be going.

Something else that dawned on me too, and props to him for showing us, but Marth really can play dumb and time Mario out if he wants to. Marth has the disjoint to discourage approach options from Mario, and is also faster than him, so it makes it easy for Marth to run away if he wants. No projectile can make this harder than traditional (non Sonic) camping, but it's not a huge issue, especially on stages with platforms, which is over 75% of the stage list.

My two cents on the Marth:Mario MU? Pretty close, but a slight edge to Marth. I'd put it at around 55:45.

You literally did a breakdown of brawl Marth vs 90% of the brawl cast.

And it still works.

 

[Luco]

Characters with retreating ranged options often work better this way. Blocking a SH aerial at the beginning gives you so much more time to force a defensive option out of the person or outright punish than towards the end of a move where sometimes the landing lag doesn't justify using the aerial early to get its AC. It also gives you the ability to mix up better - it's harder for a person to detect if you're going for a tomahawk or not when they get used to you using aerials as late as possible.

And it's not like this is a new thing either; as EL said this meta has been around since brawl.

Because it (this kind of waiting and mixing up your option select timings) ties into threat and threat is pretty much just as powerful if not *way more* powerful than any of your actual moves.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Except no Marth player ever succeeded with that playstyle in Brawl. Mr r and Leon played Marth nowhere close to what theorywarriors suggested to be 'ideal Marth play' and Mikeneko succeeded mostly on being the ****ing most skilled player Brawl has ever seen.

Marth is actually quite different in smash 4 because his disadvantaged state is easier to exploit whereas powershields are less dangerous for him than they used to be. That shifts the focus towards a more defensive, safer and less pressure-based neutral in smash 4 and being more dependent on maximizing advantages scenarios.

 

[BSP]

Somebody clearly takes #esamopinions way too seriously.

---

Something I have seen Leo do a lot in the Mario MU in regards to spacing is using a SHFF Fair; essentially short hopping, and at the peak of the jump, Fair and fast fall, as opposed doing an instant short hop Fair.

This method of spacing is pretty much impossible for characters to punish (including Mario, and it likely the reason why Leo makes the Mario MU look horrendous; he's playing it right)....

Ally started to pick up on this in the canada cup set between him and Leo, but Mario can "punish" a SH based neutral that tries to not commit too hard. If you have to jump a lot to contain Mario and he calls you out on it, you're getting pushed to the ledge via FLUDD. I say "punish" because while it's not doing any damage outright, Mario gets the stage and you're a lot more prone to his real conversions once moving back when he comes to you -> you're on the ledge / offstage.

Is it an end be all to the MU? No, but at the same time Mario's not exactly helpless to non-committing SH neutrals.

 

[|RK|]

Oh, forgot VODs are a thing:

https://www.twitch.tv/events2compete/v/104671807

This is the most recent Ally vs Leo set.

1hr 18m 11s is the timestamp.

And if it's not clear for anyone - Ally doesn't lose his jump to a glitch game 1. He just never actually lands on the stage after using it the first time. He gets very close, but he doesn't use it.

(Also, I'm pretty sure it's not a glitch at all that you lose your jump by running to the edge and jumping immediately. That's just you jumping when you're already offstage according to the game.)

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/iStudying/status/804603594695725056

Will we finally see iStudying have his breakout stateside?

 

[Jamurai]

The back hitbox of Meta Knight's Uair sends you at an almost horizontal angle. DI down and away and you'll be sent pretty much sideways, this makes it very hard to link more especially if you're a fast faller. Which is mainly why reverse Uairs into Bair isn't a (common) thing. And yeah, MKs prey on your panic DI.

(S)DI doesn't really matter when it comes to combos into Nair off the side, most of the time they'll be performed pre-tumble % where DI has very little effect. Might be the difference between survival and death but it highly depends on many things including staleness, rage, stage, starter move etc. so it's hard to say.

.

As for what Felicia was saying about Ito, the dude is a beast. The thing is MK can deal with any matchup, but he has at least a slight disadvantage against at least half the top tiers (Mario, Sonic, Fox, Sheik, Diddy, Bayo, then maybe Cloud and Mewtwo as well). This results in a very tiring bracket for a solo MK main, especially at top level. How he and Tyrant do what they do consistently is a testament to them as players.

 

[Jaguar360]

https://twitter.com/iStudying/status/804603594695725056

Will we finally see iStudying have his breakout stateside?

His success pretty much hinges on beating Ned, who he lost to at Midwest Mayhem 2. He's projected to fight Mew2King or Pink Fresh in losers top 48 if he loses that, leaving him at 33rd. If he beats Ned, he fights Ally, which is probably a loss, but gets what is a probably better losers bracket to go through. I'm not expecting much.

EDIT: Confused Ned with Tyroy I think as far as beating iStudying. They probably never played outside of potentially crews since they didn't fight at GOML or Pound.

 

[verbatim]

IStudying lost to Tyroy and Darkshad at MM2.

That being said, the winner of the two does play Ally, who Ned 2-0'd last night, so there's a good opportunity for an upset there.

 

[Deleted member]

UFC Smash Open low tiers is pretty fun to watch.

I had no idea Kameme had under his belt.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Mario has ridiculous conversions when he gets in ONCE, while Marcina's disadvantaged state is abysmal (seriously, it should be abused more). I can see it being even, though I still believe it's a slight advantage for the Falchions.
As for Cloud, Mario abuses his offstage game pretty badly, even FLUDD can screw him when he's recovering without Limit. Again, I can see both sides, I could believe it's either advantage for Cloud and even.
I don't know the Mario/Rosa matchup.


iirc, Leo lost GOML, the Rio invitational, and one set on Canada Cup, while he won two sets in Canada Cup and this one.

Mario's damage output is what makes it not awful for him. In the video I posted before of Leo vs Ally, many times we'd find Leo walling Ally out for a good while, getting Mario to around 70-80%, only for Ally to get in at just the right time and place to do 70% in return.

Marth's disadvantaged state really isn't abysmal. Landing can be tricky, yes, but recovery and escaping combos really aren't too problematic most of the time. We're talking about a character with frame data and range to be able to punish some of Sheik's moves after getting hit. There are certainly characters with either disjoint or decent to amazing frame data, but not many with both.

I haven't seen the Rio invitational set, but wasn't the GOML set Meta Knight vs Mario? Everything else is all Marth vs Mario.

 

[verbatim]

GOML was half and half.

 

[Das Koopa]

Crews at UGC. VoiD just solo'd the St. Louis crew lmao, took 15 stocks and lost 2

 

[TheGoodGuava]

VoiD is the definition of optimization. His Sheik makes everyone that isn't top 11 or so look bad

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik is a dumb character.
If as many people as I predict start playing her within the next year or two I'm most likely quitting.

Anyway, yeah, VoiD's super good. That was definitely unexpected though.

 

[The-Technique]

Mario's damage output is what makes it not awful for him. In the video I posted before of Leo vs Ally, many times we'd find Leo walling Ally out for a good while, getting Mario to around 70-80%, only for Ally to get in at just the right time and place to do 70% in return.

Marth's disadvantaged state really isn't abysmal. Landing can be tricky, yes, but recovery and escaping combos really aren't too problematic most of the time. We're talking about a character with frame data and range to be able to punish some of Sheik's moves after getting hit. There are certainly characters with either disjoint or decent to amazing frame data, but not many with both.

I haven't seen the Rio invitational set, but wasn't the GOML set Meta Knight vs Mario? Everything else is all Marth vs Mario.

Yeah Marth's disadvantage state is overly exaggerated in this thread I feel. This is a character with a frame 1 invincible aerial up B, a frame 6 f-air, and frame 5 u-air we're talking about here.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Actually scares me. True she doesn't have a ton of killing moves but she doesn't need them. She racks up damage so quickly for no punishment that by the time anyone else can get her into killing range she's already got them in her range. The only thing I saw that ever gave her pause is powerful moves with super armor and even then that's a stretch....

 

[Nah]

If as many people as I predict start playing her within the next year or two I'm most likely quitting.

Why's that?

 

[Fenny]

Leo is like bottomless pits in platform games

land on him and instant death

 

[FeelMeUp]

Other characters die and make you lose games because of character flaws that limit your gameplan.
Can't land so you have to retreat to the ledge. Really bad OoS game so you allow the opponent to bully your shield. Unsafe approach options so you have to rely on inexperience or gimmicks to get openings.
Everyone knows doesn't really have anything like that.
When's the last time you heard a commentator mention an actual Sheik flaw other than "trouble killing/dies early"? One of which is mostly untrue against 95% of the cast? The answer is pretty much never.
Your entire gameplan against Sheik is either:
A. Hoping the player makes big mistakes and allows you to do something
B. Cheesing her with rage
There's no other opportunity for any character to play their game without answering to what she wants. Sheik is almost always in control.
I genuinely love this character more than any other in the series, but her design has been flawed since day 1. There's fundamentally something wrong with a character that has:

• The most oppressive neutral in the game
• Mixups off every single move
• Actual death traps at ridiculously early percents
• No real bad maps
• A winning or even matchup vs every other character
• Combos and throws that ALL give you full stage control after they're done(except for Fthrow Bfish, which I think shouldn't be used nearly as much as it is now but we'll talk another day)

etc.
As the game becomes more and more optimized her matchup spread constantly improves and she becomes further and further ahead of the cast.
And that's just not something that's healthy for the game.
But, lets keep complaining about for now. We'll see how long it takes for the script to flip.

 

[Krysco]

Not exactly an expert on how frames work with attacks but wouldn't the initial frame of Marth's fair only be a concern if you're diagonally above him and possibly in front of him? It lasts from frames 6-8 so the portion to fend off those below him is a bit slower than 6 frames. Up b is legit though. Plus dair is at least a bit more threatening than Roy's.

Speaking of Marth and fire Marth, it was mentioned earlier how Marth's tipper fair is safe on shield. Is there anyway to test the safety of moves on shield outside of having a partner help? I know there's a calculator of sorts that can be downloaded on Kuroganehammer but I don't fully understand what goes into it, namely the hitlag modifer. Marth's tipper fair can hit a shield from frames 6-8 and after that he's either waiting till the faf of 38 or taking the 16 frames of landing lag. Also does 11.5 percent at the tip. Compare that to Roy's fair which does 11 percent when landed anywhere but the tip, has an faf of 30 and 13 frames of landing lag and can hit anywhere between frames 10-12. There's also obviously the matter of distance and factoring in each individual characters OoS options but I'm just trying to find out if the closer distance and .5 less damage makes it less safe on shield even with the lower faf and landing lag.

As for Sheik, here's a big question, what exactly happened to needles in Sm4sh that wasn't present in the previous 2 games to make them so good? I know they got their range nerfed but they're still transendent, still put characters into tumble at higher percents and still have relatively little lag. Plus the aerial version connects into a kill move (thanks 3DS version for not only taking away a combination I loved in Brawl but also giving 1 character a meh move and the other a godlike one~). I know needles aren't everything the character has but they are the reason a number of characters have to approach her. If she only had burst grenade, it wouldn't be quite as bad.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Other characters die and make you lose games because of character flaws that limit your gameplan.
Can't land so you have to retreat to the ledge. Really bad OoS game so you allow the opponent to bully your shield. Unsafe approach options so you have to rely on inexperience or gimmicks to get openings.
Everyone knows doesn't really have anything like that.
When's the last time you heard a commentator mention an actual Sheik flaw other than "trouble killing/dies early"? One of which is mostly untrue against 95% of the cast? The answer is pretty much never.
Your entire gameplan against Sheik is either:
A. Hoping the player makes big mistakes and allows you to do something
B. Cheesing her with rage
There's no other opportunity for any character to play their game without answering to what she wants. Sheik is almost always in control.
I genuinely love this character more than any other in the series, but her design has been flawed since day 1. There's fundamentally something wrong with a character that has:

• The most oppressive neutral in the game
• Mixups off every single move
• Actual death traps at ridiculously early percents
• No real bad maps
• A winning or even matchup vs every other character
• Combos and throws that ALL give you full stage control after they're done(except for Fthrow Bfish, which I think shouldn't be used nearly as much as it is now but we'll talk another day)

etc.
As the game becomes more and more optimized her matchup spread constantly improves and she becomes further and further ahead of the cast.
And that's just not something that's healthy for the game.
But, lets keep complaining about for now. We'll see how long it takes for the script to flip.

This, all of this. I played a sheik that was aggressive and I could only take one stock off due to a lucky flare blitz! I couldn't make any other moves that didn't get me comboed to high heaven!

 

[TDK]

As for Sheik, here's a big question, what exactly happened to needles in Sm4sh that wasn't present in the previous 2 games to make them so good?

Needles send you into tumble in this game. Which means you're constantly forced to land and try to get back to Neutral while being assaulted by Needles.

over
and over
and over again.

Needles are actually like half the reason I have a Sheik.

 

[Krysco]

Needles send you into tumble in this game. Which means you're constantly forced to land and try to get back to Neutral while being assaulted by Needles.

over
and over
and over again.

They never did that in Melee or Brawl? Don't use the character in Melee and the last time I used her in Brawl was before the wifi for that game was shut down so I don't recall. That is a major pain though and a wonderful thing to exploit vs ai. Wondering if that's a mechanic change or if it's simply a tweak that was given to the moves bkb or more likely the kbg of the move between games.

 

[Das Koopa]

Crews Semis


Mr. R > Pink Fresh
Samsora > Mr. R
Zinoto > Samsora
James > Zinoto
Ksev > James
Captain Zack > Ksev
MKLeo > Captain Zack
Marss > MKLeo
Ally > Marss



VoiD > Hungrybox
VoiD > Seren
VoiD > Kamikaze
Harlock > VoiD
NAKAT > Harlock
NAKAT > Fatality