Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

I don't think it's useful to talk about how scary Sheik is based on VoiD beating a bunch of players that were effectively randoms.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I don't think it's useful to talk about how scary Sheik is based on VoiD beating a bunch of players that were effectively randoms.

Sheik would still be scary regardless of whether VoiD even participated or not.
It's just what prompted me to start the discussion.

 

[NairWizard]

lol guys there is really no science to this. All Leo is doing is playing Marth the way Marth is meant to be played: reactively. It's not about SHFF f-air vs. full hop f-air or dancing blade or whatever else. It's just about setting up situations where you, the disjointed zoner, can react to your opponent's option with a superior button.

 

[Das Koopa]

Crew Finals - National International vs. Michexico

Mr. R > VoiD
Kameme > Mr. R
Ksev > Kameme
Abadango > Ksev
Zinoto > Abadango
NAKAT > Zinoto
Ally > NAKAT
Nairo > Ally
MKLeo > Nairo

 

[TDK]

Hoping this will provide some interesting discussion.

VoiD or Mr. R? Who do you guys think is the best?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Hoping this will provide some interesting discussion.

VoiD or Mr. R? Who do you guys think is the best?

Depends on which areas you look.
Best ledge trapper? Mr. R.
Best punish game? VoiD.
More consistent killer? VoiD.
Best usage of Needles in neutral? Mr. R.
Best edge guarder? Tie.
Best neutral? ZeRo.

 

[Shaya]

Leo's Marth is the second coming of Mikeneko, Gheb. Adjusted to new brawl things like Jab being busted, DB potentially killing, fair not auto cancelling and an air dodge with 20 frames less end lag.
But I'm glad we agree Mikeneko was godlike.

Being extremely reactive alongside top-end awareness allow Marth to dominate.

Also Sheik's ok.
She has an insane[ly difficult] advantage state, but her neutral doesn't dominate as much as people assume it does.

 

[Das Koopa]

An example of how I'm compiling data.

ZeRo Set History 1.1.5/1.1.6

Spoiler: Wins

3-0 Venom (GOML 2016)
3-0 San (GOML 2016)
3-2 Mr. R (GOML 2016)
3-2 MKLeo (GOML 2016)
3-0 Nairo (GOML 2016)
3-2 Larry Lurr (GOML 2016)
2-0 Nicko (2GGT: Mexico Saga)
2-1 Stroder (2GGT: Mexico Saga)
3-0 Falln (2GGT: Mexico Saga)
3-1 Zinoto (2GGT: Mexico Saga)
3-2 Larry Lurr (2GGT: Mexico Saga)
3-1 Mr. ConCon (Wednesday Night Fights 2016 2.5)
3-2 ANTi (Wednesday Night Fights 2016 2.5)
2-0 Anonymous Moniker (Smash n’ Splash 2)
2-0 Chrim Foish (Smash n’ Splash 2)
2-0 MJG (Smash n’ Splash 2)
3-0 Abadango (Smash n’ Splash 2)
3-0 Ned (Smash n’ Splash 2)
2-X Wizzrobe (Low Tier City 4)
2-X MJG (Low Tier City 4)
3-0 Cosmos (Low Tier City 4)
3-2 Nairo (Low Tier City 4)
3-1 Nairo (Low Tier City 4)
2-X Dekillsage (CEO 2016)
2-0 Sonido (CEO 2016)
2-0 Wormynugget (CEO 2016)
2-0 Dath (CEO 2016)
3-1 Wrath (CEO 2016)
2-0 Kodystri (WTFox 2)
3-0 Player-1 (WTFox 2)
3-0 Mew2King (WTFox 2)
2-0 Zenyou (EVO 2016)
2-1 Salem (EVO 2016)
2-0 Hyuga (EVO 2016)
2-0 Komorikiri (EVO 2016)
2-0 KEN (EVO 2016)
2-0 Earth (EVO 2016)
2-0 Larry Lurr (EVO 2016)
2-0 Abadango (EVO 2016)
2-0 VoiD (EVO 2016)
2-0 Dark Wizzy (Super Smash Con 2016)

2-0 Rayquaza07 (Super Smash Con 2016)
2-0 Dark Wizzy (Super Smash Con 2016)
3-1 Taiheita (Super Smash Con 2016)
2-0 Skorpio (Endgame)
2-0 Ned (Endgame)
3-2 Zinoto (Endgame)
3-1 Ally (Endgame)
3-1 Mew2King (Endgame)
3-1 Mew2King (Endgame)
2-1 Oatmeal (Shine 2016)
3-1 Raffi-X (Shine 2016)
3-2 Mr. E (Shine 2016)
3-0 Dath (Shine 2016)
3-1 ESAM (Shine 2016)
3-0 ESAM (Shine 2016)
2-0 Oatmeal (Collision XIV)
3-2 6WX (Collision XIV)
3-0 Sinji (Collision XIV)
3-0 Camalange (Collision XIV)
2-0 KOSSismoss (2GGT: Abadango Saga)
3-1 Zan (2GGT: Abadango Saga)
3-0 ANTi (2GGT: Abadango Saga)
3-0 Rich Brown (2GGT: Abadango Saga)
3-1 Nairo (2GGT: Abadango Saga)
3-1 Larry Lurr (2GGT: Abadango Saga)
2-0 LOE1 (The Big House 6)
2-1 Venom (The Big House 6)
2-0 Rayquaza07 (The Big House 6)
3-0 Tweek (The Big House 6)
3-0 Abadango (The Big House 6)
3-0 Dabuz (The Big House 6)
3-0 ANTi (The Big House 6)
3-0 ANTi (The Big House 6)
2-0 LAG Chaos (KTAR XIX)
2-0 Captain Zack (KTAR XIX)
3-1 Marss (KTAR XIX)
3-0 Tweek (KTAR XIX)
3-2 MKLeo (KTAR XIX)
3-1 Salem (KTAR XIX)

Spoiler: Losses

0-3 Mew2King (GOML 2016)
2-3 Ally (GOML 2016)
2-3 Larry Lurr (2GGT: Mexico Saga)
2-3 Larry Lurr (2GGT: Mexico Saga)
1-3 ANTi (Wednesday Night Fights 2016 2.5)
0-3 ANTi (Wednesday Night Fights 2016 2.5)
1-3 Ally (Smash n’ Splash 2)
1-3 Ally (Smash n’ Splash 2)
0-2 Prince Ramen (CEO 2016)
0-3 Larry Lurr (CEO 2016)
2-3 Dabuz (WTFox 2)
1-3 Mr. R (WTFox 2)
1-2 Mr. E (EVO 2016)
0-3 Kameme (EVO 2016)
1-2 Day (Super Smash Con 2016)
1-3 Ally (Super Smash Con 2016)
2-3 Mew2King (Endgame)
2-3 Salem (Collision XIV)
2-3 Salem (Collision XIV)
1-3 Larry Lurr (2GGT: Abadango Saga)
1-3 ANTi (The Big House 6)

 

[TheGoodGuava]

But, lets keep complaining about for now. We'll see how long it takes for the script to flip.

The best part about this is that Sheik can just choose not to never get touched by Bayonetta and have roughly the same damage output if she knows how to perfect pivot
So can Mewtwo but since his players actually have a conscience that's never going to happen

 

[HoSmash4]

A lot of the times sheiks 'dominance' is down to Mr r and Void being better players. There's a reason they don't win as much in top 8.

Sheik will never become a metagame controlling character again simply because of how hard she is in neutral and advantage. Sheik mains are actually a pretty rare breed nowadays because it's way more efficient to pick up cloud, Diddy, or Bayonetta.

 

[FeelMeUp]

A lot of the times sheiks 'dominance' is down to Mr r and Void being better players. There's a reason they don't win as much in top 8.

and who do Mr. R and VoiD usually lose to?
That's right, equal or greater players.

 

[Sleek Media]

Sheik is a dumb character.
If as many people as I predict start playing her within the next year or two I'm most likely quitting.

I thought you were a Shiek main? Anyway, I don't blame you. Shiek is one of several characters that completely sucks the fun out of the game, and of them, she's the best at it. I think it's nuts how they never fixed her. She's clearly intended to be busted af. Her and a few others...

 

[|RK|]

Honestly I have the exact opposite thoughts of you guys. Sheik only looks easier to handle as time goes on. Even if the trouble killing thing is true against very few members of the cast, most of that group is in the top tier - i.e. the relevant characters. And that is a pretty sizable flaw, considering how easily rage can body her.

I still think she's capable of a LOT, but I still think what ANTi said holds true - Sheik is capable of beating anyone, but she won't necessarily do that in bracket. Actually, I think VoiD and Mr.R's Sheik MU charts only prove my point - the vast majority of the cast only slightly loses to her. Which still means she wins, sure. But she's not this unbeatable force for the vast majority of the cast, either.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Honestly I have the exact opposite thoughts of you guys. Sheik only looks easier to handle as time goes on. Even if the trouble killing thing is true against very few members of the cast, most of that group is in the top tier - i.e. the relevant characters. And that is a pretty sizable flaw, considering how easily rage can body her.

I still think she's capable of a LOT, but I still think what ANTi said holds true - Sheik is capable of beating anyone, but she won't necessarily do that in bracket. Actually, I think VoiD and Mr.R's Sheik MU charts only prove my point - the vast majority of the cast only slightly loses to her. Which still means she wins, sure. But she's not this unbeatable force for the vast majority of the cast, either.

The characters she can have trouble killing out of the top tiers are:
*
This list doesn't seem too bad. ZSS is only difficult to kill if you needle too much or don't go for the openings enough, but Sonic and Mario are both overall hard as hell to get kills on. She has an easier time killing characters like than almost anyone else. If I had to give specific characters, I'd say her killing issues mostly come from the bad/mediocre members of the cast. Examples being:
*
DDD here but almost everyone has trouble killing him. Kirby is much harder to kill than you would expect by looking at his weight.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The characters she can have trouble killing out of the top tiers are:
*

While he may not be a top tier, I'd still add Pikachu to that list. Thankfully he can't abuse rage at all really so it ends up not making that big of a difference

I don't think I've ever actually heard anything from you on the Sheik vs Pikachu matchup despite it being one of the matchups that made Pikachu relevant in the first place.

EDIT: did something change on kuroganehammer? Last time I checked the only frame 4 bairs were Sheik's, MMs, and Falco's

 

[FeelMeUp]

Thought it was 55:45 Pika favour for the longest time but after seeing how broken Sheik's nair is and realizing that fair outranges almost everything Pika has I changed my mind. He seems really light on paper but his size+weight+fallspeed makes him get combo'd like a slower falling Meta Knight, and that's not a good look. Doesn't help that Pika's combos disappear into thin air after around 50-60 while Sheik keeps them going with DI mixups and true setups until kill %.
Probably 50:50 or 55:45 Sheik favour. I don't see it changing much over time though.

 

[Yikarur]

Bayonetta sucks the fun out of the game.
Sheik has to play so optimized over so many rounds in tournament. I respect every sheik main out there for their stamina. (it's more exhausting for sheik mains in 3 stocks tho )

 

[HoSmash4]

ramin has an opinion that sheik is worse in 3 stocks which I agree with.

I'd add Rosalina to the list of characters sheik finds hard to kill, however that may just be Dabuz being a beast at the matchup.

Greninja as well. Look at every Ramin Istudying set, even pre patch.

Pikachu can be hard to kill but he is as much of a rage victim as sheik is.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Are we still not done pretending that Sheik isn't the game's best character?

Leo's Marth is the second coming of Mikeneko, Gheb. Adjusted to new brawl things like Jab being busted, DB potentially killing, fair not auto cancelling and an air dodge with 20 frames less end lag.

Fwiw I think the Brawl Marth community has been totally wrong about how their character is played ideally. Marth's stronger neutral and less vulnerable disadvantaged state [compared to smash 4] gave him way more room to play aggresive and pressure based. A non-commitial Marth in Brawl may have been able to shut down whatever low tier character but against stronger characters he had to go in at times to get the reward needed to keep up with, say, Olimar or Diddy Kong. Leon's and Mr r's success against these characters in prove of that. That's probably my main gripe with Brawl's Marth community - they just couldn't accept the fact that Marth was never the character they fantasized about and the great 'savior' with 'ideal' Marth gameplay of non-commiting spacing never came. If anything, all the Marth players that enjoyed longterm success with the character proved the opposite to be true.

Ironically, the way he's ideally played in smash 4 may be a lot closer to how people thought Marth *should* be played in Brawl. Smash 4 Marth might just have become the character that yall have been dreaming about the last 8 years. He still sucks tho.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Careful there ~ Gheb ~
You don't want to start a ****storm just yet, there's still results to be had.

Then again, I love reading theories from people with more experience than me. Learning and understanding things that aren't actual things yet is always good

 

[meticulousboy]

It's been a while since I spoke here. But I want to know how Samus has been doing recently in the meta.

 

[verbatim]

IcyMist took a set off of Dabuz a few weeks ago. She's in the same vein as a lot of low/mid tiers. They have their weaknesses holding them down but they also have unique strengths that can really mess up people that don't take them seriously, especially in the hands of a really good player.

 

[TDK]

Watching ESAM's top tiers video he mentioned that Pikachu's Fair -> Up Smash is a garunteed kill confirm on the whole cast. Is this true?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Watching ESAM's top tiers video he mentioned that Fair -> Up Smash is a garunteed kill confirm on the whole cast. Is this true?

For what character?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Mewtwo has some criminally underrated edgeguarding. I notice that a lot of players tend to just sit back and charge shadow ball when the opponent is offstage, but they don't have to. Fair comes out quick, has a good hitbox and is one of the best off-the-side kill moves in the game, making walk-off fair an incredible option. Nair is more situational, but it lingers forever, and being a multihit allows Mewtwo to drag down opponents towards the blast zone. Back air is a giant hitbox that covers a lot of characters' options for making it back. Then there's all the options he has to land these moves. Teleport canceling off the ledge is an extremely potent (albeit finicky) mobility mixup that puts mewtwo right where he needs to be for edgeguarding from an unexpected distance. Walk-off air dodge makes your location less obvious and can get in your opponent's head by doing so. Using the two in conjunction with one another is pretty hard to anticipate and also hard to react to. On top of all this Mewtwo has a nice distance on his recovery so he can make it back fairly easily if he ever needs to really drop down.

 

[meticulousboy]

IcyMist took a set off of Dabuz a few weeks ago. She's in the same vein as a lot of low/mid tiers. They have their weaknesses holding them down but they also have unique strengths that can really mess up people that don't take them seriously, especially in the hands of a really good player.

Oh yeah. I overheard about that new kill confirm. Max rage late Dash Attack to Screw Attack can KO an opponent even at 0%.

 

[|RK|]

THANK YOU KID GOGGLES!

MINUS THREE MU?! MINUS THREE?!

(I gotta tell this man about dthrow jab. Best way to get rid of Luma )

 

[TDK]

For what character?

Pikachu.

 

[MistressRemilia]

THANK YOU KID GOGGLES!

MINUS THREE MU?! MINUS THREE?!

(I gotta tell this man about dthrow jab. Best way to get rid of Luma )

I would like to mention that Vinnie's pocket Rosa also lost to LordMix's Bowser, another -3 matchup.

 

[Jaguar360]

https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/805154812908236801
iStudying got his win on Ned after all! Fights Ally next and if he loses he probably fights either Fye, Jswiss or Deezus for top 32 and probably Fatality after that.

 

[TDK]

THANK YOU KID GOGGLES!

MINUS THREE MU?! MINUS THREE?!

(I gotta tell this man about dthrow jab. Best way to get rid of Luma )

What's up?

 

[|RK|]

I would like to mention that Vinnie's pocket Rosa also lost to LordMix's Bowser, another -3 matchup.

Oh, I know. It's mostly hype

 

[The-Technique]

I thought you were a Shiek main? Anyway, I don't blame you. Shiek is one of several characters that completely sucks the fun out of the game, and of them, she's the best at it. I think it's nuts how they never fixed her. She's clearly intended to be busted af. Her and a few others...

you mean besides the overall nerfs that hit her so hard that ZeRo barely touches Sheik in bracket since that patch, when he was once considered the best Sheik out of everyone?

shes *possibly* the best character but she's also hard as **** to play optimally, that's why you only see VoiD and Mr. R in top 8 as dedicated Sheik mains, and even then stuff happens like falling out of top 3 or getting 3-0'd by a Luigi. IMO she's as balanced as we can make her without completely neutering her strengths

also i thought everyone was freaking out about cloud and bayo, what happened to that?

 

[bc1910]

ramin has an opinion that sheik is worse in 3 stocks which I agree with.

I'd add Rosalina to the list of characters sheik finds hard to kill, however that may just be Dabuz being a beast at the matchup.

Greninja as well. Look at every Ramin Istudying set, even pre patch.

Pikachu can be hard to kill but he is as much of a rage victim as sheik is.

Ninja is a slippery **** in general.

His range and mobility make him a character that says "commit to your kill option" to everyone except like, Diddy, Cloud and Rosa.

Add to this that he's likely one of the biggest beneficiaries of rage because of Uthrow and you have a pretty obnoxious character at high percent.

 

[Fenny]

Darkshad 3-2 Larry

Darkshad literally just left walls of soft u-tilts that Larry kept getting caught in

It was so wonderfully shameless on Darkshad's part, legit happy he won

 

[|RK|]

What's up?

KIDGoggles's Kirby beat Vinnie's Sheik and Rosa.

Though I have to say this adds to my point from a while back. Saying MU's amount to "do X and you'll win" is dangerous. It's inevitable that you'll have the LordMix's and the KIDGoggles of the world that really study MUs. And they will catch you off guard.

 

[TDK]

https://smashboards.com/threads/ugn-smash-open-thread.443785/

Here, I made a thread for this so we can keep the hype and meaningful arguments over characters seperate

 

[Deleted member]

Aarrow knocks Papa Wall into losers at TGM 9 (series of Texas regionals, previously TGC).

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm....how do people feel about ? (yeah yeah bjr. I know but I prefer ludwig) I know he's another low-tier but I really want to know people's opinions of him.

 

[Megamang]

Powerful if you dont know the MU. If you do, you see how limited his mobility and CQC are, and you punish koopa pulls like other projectile pulls, grab them with a safe DA, etc.

His OoS is meh, so its easier to pressure him, into his bad disadvantage, into an easy gimp.

He has a kill confirm on everyone ~90%, so dont get hit with kart dash.

SDI out of jabs.

Fsmash is ridic, usmash is really good.