Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[SaltyKracka]

https://t.co/31aDo2m2CC

Looks like the games at CEO dreamland(smash focused ceo) are smash 4, melee, 64, rivals of aether, and brawlhalla. Every brawl fan got jebaited yesterday with that brawl tweet it seems

Every what now? What is this strange and incomprehensible phrase you use?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

... he's talking about crazy people like me that actually like Brawl!

 

[Deleted member]

Brawl is my favorite game in the series besides 4, so I'll let you all judge me on that one.

Anyways:

Here is Nicko's MU chart. Thoughts?

 

[Megamang]

Id have thought shield art + range + killing off a grab (purge has to work on bayo's bad ADs) + a deadly counter of his own would let shulk do decent vs bayo.

 

[|RK|]

Id have thought shield art + range + killing off a grab (purge has to work on bayo's bad ADs) + a deadly counter of his own would let shulk do decent vs bayo.

If there's anything I've learned as a layman, its that you can't switch arts as quickly as you might like mid-combo. Not every time, anyways. I've seen Nicko get caught before he could change to shield many times. Plus, Shulk's counter - while deadly - has a bunch of lag and loses effective time the more often it's used. Finally, his range isn't enough to completely save him from Witch Time and his frame data definitely doesn't do him any favors.

 

[Deleted member]

Id have thought shield art + range + killing off a grab (purge has to work on bayo's bad ADs) + a deadly counter of his own would let shulk do decent vs bayo.

Not really.

Purge is a 50/50 after all and shouldn't be relied on, and counters in general as they are are easily baited. Vision outright doesn't work in the air, it has great reward on hit but a good Bayo likely won't be in the place to be hit by it.

Bayo can easily camp out Shield Art with Bullet Climax and Bullet Arts. Having good mobility and range against Bayo is nice but making trades with her is extremely risky because of how easy Shulk is to combo along with him potentially taking more damage in Buster. Being offstage isn't fun either due to his recovery being linear/lacking a lenient ledgesnap.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Brawl is my favorite game in the series besides 4, so I'll let you all judge me on that one.

Anyways:

Here is Nicko's MU chart. Thoughts?

Fairly accurate, but a tad too optimistic in the way that Nicko, being the Socal threat that he is, hasn't faced every character played at their best, so a bunch of " Even but most likely not even " matchups can be seen throughout the chart.
The biggest case of this would be Shulk vs heavies. I do not pretend to be an expert in these matchups, but i would assume that heavies can do decently against a character who's spacing game, while good, is rather linear, and completely loses the ground game to all of them besides Dedede & Ganon. Heavies' potency at getting into advantage by abusing mispaced moves should also be noted as one of the main elements that may turn the matchups as harder than they may be rated.

 

[Yikarur]

That MU chart is non-sense. Why are people so bad at making charts? Every MU chart I've seen indicates the character is potential high tier. People should just quit creating MU charts tbh.

 

[Deleted member]

That MU chart is non-sense. Why are people so bad at making charts? Every MU chart I've seen indicates the character is potential high tier. People should just quit creating MU charts tbh.

funnily enough Nicko only thinks Shulk is low-mid at the very best

it's a fairly accurate chart, 'least to me

 

[MrGameguycolor]

That MU chart is non-sense. Why are people so bad at making charts? Every MU chart I've seen indicates the character is potential high tier. People should just quit creating MU charts tbh.

People should just quit stating their opinions on characters.
That's how the meta will advance forward.

 

[ARGHETH]

funnily enough Nicko only thinks Shulk is low-mid at the very best

it's a fairly accurate chart, 'least to me

A low-mid that only loses 11 MUs and goes even with 23 characters? Even Dath and Raziek's super optimistic Robin MU chart lost more MUs than that.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Regarding the vs MU. I can see how most of Shulks Monado Arts can be as harmful as they are helpful when active if not more so.
For Buster, Smash and Sheid. The additional reward Bayo can get from the weakness added from those arts can be equal or greater than the advantages Shulk can get from the buffs. Speed and Jump are likely not as bad but can still some with drawbacks for the MU

It's almost like the vs MU situation but kinda worse. Where Bayo can turn the advantages from his gimmick against him when the player gets careless

 

[Deleted member]

A low-mid that only loses 11 MUs and goes even with 23 characters? Even Dath and Raziek's super optimistic Robin MU chart lost more MUs than that.

A lot of Shulk's matchups do end up being pretty even though. The nature of his character and Monado Arts in of themselves being the main reason. I'm just saying I find his chart mostly agreeable lol

 

[Egghead]

Just asking, what does shulk use to counter projectiles, pun not intended?

 

[Deleted member]

Just asking, what does shulk use to counter projectiles, pun not intended?

This exists.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Just asking, what does shulk use to counter projectiles, pun not intended?

Speed and Jump Monado make trying to play keep away kind of a mug's game.

 

[Das Koopa]

https://t.co/31aDo2m2CC

Looks like the games at CEO dreamland(smash focused ceo) are smash 4, melee, 64, rivals of aether, and brawlhalla. Every brawl fan got jebaited yesterday with that brawl tweet it seems

He'll apparently include it if the game gets enough retweets. I think it's about concerns over putting resources into a game that more or less is only played in significant numbers when it's accompanied by Smash 4 players. RoB demonstrated there's very little interest for the game by itself. 64 has a unique and growing community and Melee/Sm4sh are titans by themselves.

 

[DanGR]

That MU chart is non-sense. Why are people so bad at making charts? Every MU chart I've seen indicates the character is potential high tier. People should just quit creating MU charts tbh.

I'm not too opposed to having half the cast in high tier, tbh.

 

[ARGHETH]

I'm not too opposed to having half the cast in high tier, tbh.

But then it wouldn't really be high tier...You can't have over half the cast being above average.

 

[Egghead]

Many lower tier mains put many of their matchups as very high because
1 They are used to bad matchups so they feel even
2 Many matchups don't have anything that counters something else, for example, Rosalina can grav pull ness' thunder but in a match up like shulk and ZSS, it is not like shulk is especially susceptible to any of her combos so it may feel even.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Brawl is my favorite game in the series besides 4, so I'll let you all judge me on that one.

Anyways:

Here is Nicko's MU chart. Thoughts?

Can't really say that I agree with an advantage against Marth, Lucina, Samus, and Lucas. Not only that but the way the tier list is set up and the phrasing that's used suggests that Fox is a horrible match up but is only listed at 6:4, which really doesn't suggest horrible to me. And despite being a bit of a Shulk optimist, I have my doubts on some of the even match ups listed as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Can't really say that I agree with an advantage against Marth, Lucina, Samus, and Lucas. Not only that but the way the tier list is set up and the phrasing that's used suggests that Fox is a horrible match up but is only listed at 6:4, which really doesn't suggest seem horrible to me. And despite being a bit of a Shulk optimist, I have my doubts on some of the even match ups listed as well.

I don't agree with a Marcina advantage for Shulk at all. I think Shulk loses to Marth and that the Lucina MU may more or less be the same or even.

I can understand Shulk having an advantage vs Samus as well, Nicko has beaten Jonny Westwide pretty cleanly last time they played so that's something to consider. I don't necessarily agree with Shulk beating Lucas (I believe that MU is even), but I can't see how it's much worse for Shulk either.

 

[Nu~]

But then it wouldn't really be high tier...You can't have over half the cast being above average.

Unless the power gap between the top and bottom half is enormous.

But I don't see that.

 

[DanGR]

Tier labels aside, if you organize the tiers such that there are distinct power level differences between each tier (so that the tier separations are not arbitrary), I think there's roughly 20 characters you could spread over 2 separate lower tiers. I think there's about 26 characters you could feasibly put in the tier above that, leaving 12 or so in the highest tier.

Visual:
A- 12
B- 26
C- 13
D- 7

 

[Das Koopa]

November retrospective post coming soon with an announcement of intended changes to the system taking place on January 1st. Also, a lot of information on a major side project I'll be doing for the end of December~ (Hint: 100.)

 

[TDK]

November retrospective post coming soon with an announcement of intended changes to the system taking place on January 1st. Also, a lot of information on a major side project I'll be doing for the end of December~ (Hint: 100.)

Top 100 players incoming?

 

[Rizen]

Brawl is my favorite game in the series besides 4, so I'll let you all judge me on that one.

Anyways:

Here is Nicko's MU chart. Thoughts?

Most Link player charts have vs as even, which I agree with.

 

[Megamang]

Let me back up...

Yea bayo beats shulk. Im just surprised it is his worst MU (ish). Bayo doesnt really stuff you bad for your frame data, doesnt adore swords or versatile neutrals, and prefers lighter targets....

And the faults with his counter mostly apply to WT, WT hits in the air but high up the reward is muted. Fsmash is pgood at killing witch timers.

The power level difference is obvious, but id think Shulk would be worse off vs Diddy, Corrin (?), Fox (no argument here),... CF? Chars that say FU if you are even a little slow (minus Mario cause sword).

Lost my point here anyways.

Anyone able to gimp bayo successfully besides Marth? M2's hugely active dair + threat of fair killing early to force AD seems relevant, but I find myself just going for fair even if there is an AD cause I figure bayo still survives the bottom of the blastzone...

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Anyone able to gimp bayo successfully besides Marth? M2's hugely active dair + threat of fair killing early to force AD seems relevant, but I find myself just going for fair even if there is an AD cause I figure bayo still survives the bottom of the blastzone...

If a recovery can be gimped its safe to assume Sheik can take care of it. Ike and Link can both challenge her recovery head on much like Mewtwo and Marth and Link has plenty of projectiles to play with too. I can't really think of anyone else

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik and most Swordies in general can gimp bayo successfully.
Not sure if anyone else can do so successfully without incurring a huge risk.

 

[The-Technique]

Can't really say that I agree with an advantage against Marth, Lucina, Samus, and Lucas. Not only that but the way the tier list is set up and the phrasing that's used suggests that Fox is a horrible match up but is only listed at 6:4, which really doesn't suggest horrible to me. And despite being a bit of a Shulk optimist, I have my doubts on some of the even match ups listed as well.

Unless you're like a bottom 5 character, I don't think there's any flat out unwinnable matchups that warrant anything farther than 6:4.

 

[Rizen]

Unless you're like a bottom 5 character, I don't think there's any flat out unwinnable matchups that warrant anything farther than 6:4.

There are some weird MUs throughout the tiers like Pac 'n' Mac, ZSS vs heavies like DK, Wario/Cloud, or so I've heard.

 

[Yikarur]

The 6:4 definiton is too vague. I'd say more MUs are 7:3 because most people are not generous enough in setting ratios.

(With 7:3 I mean -2 as in "disadvantaged", I'm considering 6:4 a -1 as in "minor disadvantaged")

 

[Swamp Sensei]

ZSS vs heavies like DK

Honestly...

This is one of the worst matchups in the game.

7:3 for Charizard at least, and I'd say he deals with it better than the others barring maybe Bowser.

I can only imagine how bad it is for Ganon and Dedede.



Regardless, I'd definitely add Cloud vs Jiggs to that list. It's pretty abysmal.

 

[adom4]

Honestly...

This is one of the worst matchups in the game.

7:3 for Charizard at least, and I'd say he deals with it better than the others barring maybe Bowser.

I can only imagine how bad it is for Ganon and Dedede.



Regardless, I'd definitely add Cloud vs Jiggs to that list. It's pretty abysmal.

tbh as Ganon i don't mind ZSS that much, like it's still bad but i'd rather fight ZSS than most top tiers lol, having a good air game helps vs her + her options out of flame choke suck.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

tbh as Ganon i don't mind ZSS that much, like it's still bad but i'd rather fight ZSS than most top tiers lol, having a good air game helps vs her + her options out of flame choke suck.

Interesting.

What are her options out of flame choke exactly?

 

[adom4]

Interesting.

What are her options out of flame choke exactly?

We do get D-tilt on a missed tech, it's mostly that her tech roll is garbage so it's relatively easy to chase her down even if she techs.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Here is Nicko's MU chart. Thoughts?

I don't know why people call this MU chart "optimistic". I'm sure a few matchup numbers are straight up misjudged but for the most part this one looks actually fairly conservative. Fox I'm sure is worse than just 40-60 and I'd have Ganondorf or Jigglypuff around 65-35 for Shulk. I'd also say he beats Wario by more than just 55-45. But if Nicko just generally has a conservative outlook on matchup numbers it's hard to argue the legitimacy of this chart because he's still being very consistent overall. At that point it'd be an ideological question about how you define matchup numbers rather than him being too 'optimistic'.

That MU chart is non-sense. Why are people so bad at making charts? Every MU chart I've seen indicates the character is potential high tier. People should just quit creating MU charts tbh.

According to Nicko's matchup chart Shulk:

1.) only wins against 1/3rd of the game's cast.
1.a.) Out of that part of the cast only Marcina is considered to be a good character.
2.) loses to 7 of the 'established' top 10 characters.
3.) loses to 4 characters that are potentially not even top 15 [Greninja, Ryu, Corrin, Meta Knight].
4.) only goes even with 3 of the top 10 characters [ZSS, Rosalina and Cloud].
4.a) At least one of these matchups - Cloud - is pretty undisputed to be even by both characters' communities.
5.) goes even with a number of characters that range between mediocre [Ike, ROB, Peach] and just straight up no good [Falco, Palutena, Doc].

If you think that matchup chart indicated that Shulk could be high tier ... you should probably go to a doctor.

 

[HoSmash4]

For me ratios are not important at all but more importantly is the reasoning and the relative placement compared to other characters. I wouldn't bat a lid at Ganon 8:2 but if Ganon is 6:4 but Bowser is 7:3 for example I'm gonna start asking questions.

 

[Deleted member]

Not a tournament that counts for anything, but:

Nicko double eliminated Charliedaking and beat JK in a LAN Hero weekly in SoCal, VODs can be found here.