Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Tizio Random]

Great tournament and very good showing for , and . Chimera our national pride (still sad he dropped Palutena )!

 

[Deleted member]

Tru4got 25th and was able to take a game off Sodrek before being eliminated. Something cool, I guess.

 

[adom4]

Tru4got 25th and was able to take a game off Sodrek before being eliminated. Something cool, I guess.

Just to correct, he didn't actually take a game off sodrek, it was a mistake in the bracket page.

 

[FullMoon]

Apparently Elexiao lost to 2 Bayonettas, makes me wonder if I was wrong about the MU being even.

 

[Deleted member]

Just to correct, he didn't actually take a game off sodrek, it was a mistake in the bracket page.

****in' smash.gg ;-;

i'm sad now

oh well 25th is an alright placement, it's p cool two shulks made it into top 48

 

[Monete]

Smashdown World (Paris, FR - 300 entrants)

1) komorikiri
2) ANTi
3) Gluttony
4) Kameme
5) Mr. R
5) cyve
7) Sodrek
7) LoNg0uw
9) Pefo
9) Greil
9) J.Miller
9) BluB
13) vyQ
13) iStudying
13) KayJay
13) Badr
17) Elexiao
17) S1
17) Griffith
17) Pur Gars
17) Pepo
17) Chimera
17) Sabaca
17) Euk

Pepo did not place 17th that was Death-Alex. They have named him as Pepo all tournament dont know why.

 

[Illusion.]

Apparently Elexiao lost to 2 Bayonettas, makes me wonder if I was wrong about the MU being even.

I can see it becoming in 's favor as time goes on. Captain Zack switched his opinion from even to slight favor recently also.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9cLZjg6X4I

Here's another Link combo video. This is almost impossible to watch (or it may just be my awful laptop) but from what I can tell some of this stuff looks interesting.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I can see it becoming in 's favor as time goes on. Captain Zack switched his opinion from even to slight favor recently also.

What I wonder is who does actullay lose to now besides possibly ?

Characters who at once time were thought to have positive MU's vs her such as are now either seen as even or slightly in Bayo's favor now.

 

[Illusion.]

having a positive MU over , especially pre-patch, was a meme.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Bayo loses to Sheik but it's nothing silly like 6:4. Probably 55:45 Sheik favour.
I think over time Diddy may become even because of his pretty terrible disadvantage and offstage game.
The arguments for TL having a slight advantage are pretty sound and I wouldn't be surprised if results soon reflect that.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Surpisngly I think there has really been too many top competive matches between post -patched Sheik and Bayo to really give solid ground on that MU . Unless I've have missed all of them out there

 

[FeelMeUp]

Surpisngly I think there has really been too many top competive matches between post -patched Sheik and Bayo to really give solid ground on that MU . Unless I've have missed all of them out there

A few you may have missed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYFRZSPuZVg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkujT5IymM8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUY4CmbX2fw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhJymF898y0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO_u8C4KS4w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Keg4FFYlMT4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8oGi17fYHE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT32DX2aCR0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwRyjaXRwnw
https://youtu.be/XoWrVx3-izI?t=30m7s
Videos of Mr. R aren't as easy to find for obvious reasons.
For the huge database of info check VoiD's streams vs Pink Fresh.
I think both on paper and in a realistic light, Sheik wins the MU.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Can we just remember that players aren't Robots and even wit MU knowledge, will not play to absolute perfection? If elaxaio keeps losing to bayos more than once, then we'll have a case.

EDIT: (Idk about elaxaio's history with bayos, so nvm if I'm ignorant).

Also, what characters would you guys NOT recommend to beginners (don't say stuff like Zelda, or jiggly, cuz they're really bad)?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Can we just remember that players aren't Robots and even wit MU knowledge, will not play to absolute perfection? If elaxaio keeps losing to bayos more than once, then we'll have a case.

Also, what characters would you guys NOT recommend to beginners (don't say stuff like Zelda, or jiggly, cuz they're really bad)?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Zard's u-throw is only great if the opponent doesn't know how to DI. M2 And lucas kill earlier.

Well it does kill significantly earlier with platforms, T&C makes up throw kill as early as 90% even with good DI, and DH makes it a dumb idea to approach in general

I disagree with Sheik being there, playing her in the most basic way possible is easy and effective and once you get the hang of that and smash fundamentals you can learn the more technical side of her. I'd replace her with Greninja or Ryu

 

[Guido65]

Why exactly would you not recommend yoshi for beginners?

 

[TDK]

So going back, I've catalogued who a lot of the top bayos mained before they dropped them for Bayo.

9B -
AeroLink -
Aphro -
Captain Zack -
Ikep -
Pink Fresh -
Saj -
Salem -
Tyroy -
Wonf -

I wonder why so many Peach/Rosa players dropped her for Bayo? Coincidence?

Well it does kill significantly earlier with platforms, T&C makes up throw kill as early as 90% even with good DI, DH makes it a dumb idea to approach in general

I disagree with this notion.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Well it does kill significantly earlier with platforms, T&C makes up throw kill as early as 90% even with good DI, and DH makes it a dumb idea to approach in general


I disagree with Sheik being there, playing her in the most basic way possible is easy and effective and once you get the hang of that and smash fundamentals you can learn the more technical side of her. I'd replace her with Greninja or Ryu

On the most basic level, Sheik does no damage and can't kill.
New players can't edgeguard or ledgetrap and don't do well with a character that has two potential instant SD special moves.
You need to already be a decent to good player in order to play Sheik well.
Ryu, in my opinion, is not at all difficult to use because his input difficulty is highly exaggerated and he only really needs about 3 neutral exchange wins for each stock. His recovery doesn't have much depth to it and he doesn't have a ton of trouble landing vs most of the lesser/mediocre cast.

and to Guido65 , Yoshi isn't there because he can't kill and has no grab.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

On the most basic level, Sheik does no damage and can't kill.
New players can't edgeguard or ledgetrap and don't do well with a character that has two potential instant SD special moves.
You need to already be a decent to good player in order to play Sheik well.
Ryu, in my opinion, is not at all difficult to use because his input difficulty is highly exaggerated and he only really needs about 3 neutral exchange wins for each stock. His recovery doesn't have much depth to it and he doesn't have a ton of trouble landing vs most of the lesser/mediocre cast.

Well here you have to define basic then. Is it just now learning the controls of the game or is it learning the basic fundamentals? If its just learning controls then sure, I agree. If its just learning the basics like throw combos then Sheik is great, as is any character that benefits from having good fundamentals. She has throw combos, a projectile, good mobility, a good recovery, a good combo game, and most other players at this level make don't know how to deal with BF so she will kill just fine.

Ryu's input difficulty is blown out of proportion but at this basic level I doubt the player would even know that he has different versions of every move, let alone the inputs for them

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think she should be up there too. No beginner can actually ultilize all the options she holds. Him too

 

[Deleted member]

So going back, I've catalogued who a lot of the top bayos mained before they dropped them for Bayo.

9B -
AeroLink -
Aphro -
Captain Zack -
Ikep -
Pink Fresh -
Saj -
Salem -
Tyroy -
Wonf -

I wonder why so many Peach/Rosa players dropped her for Bayo? Coincidence?


I disagree with this notion.

Erm, Wonf never dropped Sonic. Tyroy still plays MK/Sheik/occasionally Mario as well.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think she should be up there too. No beginner can actually ultilize all the options she holds. Him too

Definitely gotta give a STRONG disagreement for both of these.
Bayo wins MUs on punish game and a nearly ungimpable recovery alone while allowing you to almost instantly kill people for guesses/reads.
M2 can win a lot of matchups with 3-5 moves.

When I read the question the first thing to come to mind was low/low mid level play. Where strong character tools dominate and player matchups matter less than character matchups do. Edgeguards are generally weak, the neutral is underdeveloped, RPS and 50/50 mindgames are almost nonexistent, etc.
Around these levels are where I'd tell the new player to pick up or to get the biggest reward for the least practice and skill.

 

[L9999]

So going back, I've catalogued who a lot of the top bayos mained before they dropped them for Bayo.

9B -
AeroLink -
Aphro -
Captain Zack -
Ikep -
Pink Fresh -
Saj -
Salem -

I wonder why so many Peach/Rosa players dropped her for Bayo? Coincidence?


I disagree with this notion.

I think I find a reason, and this goes for all the characters listed. Peach and Rosalina are lightweights who are "hard" to get into and for all the crap you have to learn, and for some MUs that are tough to learn (swordfighters) or not worth your time (Meta Knight) all that investment they give could be used better on Bayonetta, who has way more reward on learning the more complex parts of her character. That is where Ryu falls flat. He is explosive if you invest in him, but the investment he has is a lot when you get deeper with the MUs he stuggles, and Ryu has more exploitable parts of him than Bayonetta does. Then Shiek and ZSS. These characters aren't for everyone, and only those willing to invest their souls in them will play them on top tier level. We all have talked in the past why Pit is not for everyone and I don't want to summon another storm of posts about Pit and his "averageness". And then Lucas. Lucas reward from playing him isn't "amazing" per say, and he requires a lot of investment no matter what playstyle of Lucas you have. He doesn't suck, just hard to get into. By comparison to all this characters, Bayonetta is easier to get into and has more explosive results. Not saying Bayo is braindead, like mention above she is not for beginners and she may not be everyone's cup of tea.

EDIT: Forgot Palutena, but you can replace her name with Lucas only that she is worse than Lucas overall.

efine basic then. Is it just now learning the controls of the game or is it learning throw combos? If its just learning controls then sure, I agree. If its just learning the basics like throw combos then Sheik is great, as is any character that benefits from having good fundamentals. She has throw combos, a projectile, good mobility, a good recovery, a good combo game, and most other players at this level make don't know how to deal with BF so she will kill just fine.

Yeah, like new players will know how to use Bouncing Fish effectively. Also remember Sheik is made of paper mache, any mistake is death and new players don't space much.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Well here you have to define basic then. Is it just now learning the controls of the game or is it learning the basic fundamentals? If its just learning controls then sure, I agree. If its just learning the basics like throw combos then Sheik is great, as is any character that benefits from having good fundamentals. She has throw combos, a projectile, good mobility, a good recovery, a good combo game, and most other players at this level make don't know how to deal with BF so she will kill just fine.

Ryu's input difficulty is blown out of proportion but at this basic level I doubt the player would even know that he has different versions of every move, let alone the inputs for them

He prolly means someone who just started competitive play.

So we can assume they know the basic badic stuff

Definitely gotta give a STRONG disagreement for both of these.
Bayo wins MUs on punish game and a nearly ungimpable recovery alone while allowing you to almost instantly kill people for guesses/reads.
M2 can win a lot of matchups with 3-5 moves.

When I read the question the first thing to come to mind was low/low mid level play. Where strong character tools dominate and player matchups matter less than character matchups do. Edgeguards are generally weak, the neutral is underdeveloped, RPS and 50/50 mindgames are almost nonexistent, etc.
Around these levels are where I'd tell the new player to pick up or to get the biggest reward for the least practice and skill.

Yea

Bayo will have newbies dying because they wasted their second jump, spamming bullet climax too much, killing themselves trying to kill their opponent cuz they throw themselves too far off the stage without a second jump, etc.. while
Being light, so mistakes will be costly.


M2 is big, floaty, and light, with no Mario Nair to save him from combos, and since we're talkin bout underveloped neutral, newbs wont know how to keep an opponent from shredding them apart (Fair can't do it alone).

 

[NairWizard]

I wonder why so many Peach/Rosa players dropped her for Bayo? Coincidence?
.

Because they like to play sassy female characters.

 

[Krysco]

No mention of for a poor character for beginners yet. No easy time killing, having to learn how to utilize can, frisbee and gunmen properly and learning how to recover without being predictable since it lacks a hitbox and is kinda slow.

Not sure about . Has a bunch of technical stuff that doesn't seem completely necessary to know but may be overwhelming to a beginner. Learning when to use each Arte, how to recover without auto ledgesnap and no ac sh aerials. Dunnobro and Felicia could likely shed more light on the 2.

 

[TDK]

Erm, Wonf never dropped Sonic. Tyroy still plays MK/Sheik/occasionally Mario as well.

...Right. My point wasn't really on him, though.

 

[Deleted member]

No mention of for a poor character for beginners yet. No easy time killing, having to learn how to utilize can, frisbee and gunmen properly and learning how to recover without being predictable since it lacks a hitbox and is kinda slow.

Not sure about . Has a bunch of technical stuff that doesn't seem completely necessary to know but may be overwhelming to a beginner. Learning when to use each Arte, how to recover without auto ledgesnap and no ac sh aerials. Dunnobro and Felicia could likely shed more light on the 2.

Shulk is not a beginner's character at all, it's one of the main reasons he's underrepped (and that he's a low tier, but that's another discussion). There's also the fact that you have to learn how to work with a character who has the worst frame data in the game on average (only really come close) and knowing how to work around such a significant flaw.

Tech isn't a requirement at all to be successful with Shulk at high level, but stuff like MALLC and MABD (Monado Art Buffer Deactivation) are pretty noticeable boons in certain matchups and in some cases can help your Shulk gameplay flow better but it's a matter of preference. Shulk can also snap the ledge just fine, he just has to buffer the second hit of Air Slash during the first hit's last 10 frames of activity.

 

[Dabuz]

So going back, I've catalogued who a lot of the top bayos mained before they dropped them for Bayo.

9B -
AeroLink -
Aphro -
Captain Zack -
Ikep -
Pink Fresh -
Saj -
Salem -
Tyroy -
Wonf -

I wonder why so many Peach/Rosa players dropped her for Bayo? Coincidence?

We know how the superior waifu is

Ok but for a real answer, Bayo being a better character but having very similar movement specs to Rosa (except for fall speed ) makes picking her up feel very comfortable.

 

[Das Koopa]

I feel like SmashDown finally put Europe on the map. Wario getting better or not, Gluttony played liked a champion, and both Cyve and especially LoNg0uw gave super-commendable performances that didn't give off the impression that either were just "Free" before Top players. Like I said, you need to take a wait and see attitude on long-term trends, but these guys were playing like they were on the level of high-level U.S. players, like they suddenly made a huge stride forward.

Also, I think we're close to Komorikiri have a stronger track record than Abadango. Wait n' attitude on it, but he's stepped it up so well that he's starting to live up to all that hype assigned to him early in the year. Dabuz and ZeRo are roadblocks, but I think if he can overcome at leas one of them at ZeRo Saga and outperform Abadango, he'll have an argument for international #1 Japan player.

 

[Deleted member]

Brawl's mechanics were a blessing for Dedede, who happened to have among the best grab games amongst the cast. His projectile was far more versatile than his current one, he generally had better power and frame data to couple with his impressive range, was hard as hell to gimp and lived forever.

Snake had amazing stage control and camping abilities with his ***load of explosives, his tilts were dumb, DACUS and again he was hard to gimp. What superheavies lack in this game are any defining qualities that balance the mobility and hurtbox problems that normally plague them. Bowser didn't - he was trash. DK didn't - he was trash. It's not impossible for a superheavy to be good but it's a bit of a lucky dice roll to get a correct balance for them.

So what you're saying is the superheavies are harder to master than the top tiers, and they almost never beat anyone above them on the tier list?

The superheavies are High Risk/High Reward (though Bowser seems like Medium Risk/High Reward), it seems, but there's no way they're completely horrible (especially not the ones in Bottom 5).

 

[Luco]

Lucas is so technical and diverse that even after having (co)-mained him since day 1 I still perpetually feel like I'm 5x better with him than I was 2 months ago. Of course the buffs helped a ton, but for most people picking him up was hard because he felt like a tumble of puzzle pieces that didn't quite fit together until people finally realised "ohhh he can do this into all these ridiculous option trees" and suddenly he just 'worked'.

He's definitely not someone I'd recommend to beginners, heavy focus on spacing and punishing options most low-mid level players don't. But call me main biased.

 

[SaltyKracka]

So what you're saying is the superheavies are harder to master than the top tiers, and they almost never beat anyone above them on the tier list?

The superheavies are High Risk/High Reward (though Bowser seems like Medium Risk/High Reward), it seems, but there's no way they're completely horrible (especially not the ones in Bottom 5).

Dude, what? This post is not only a non-sequiter to the current topic of discussion, it's at best only tangentially related to the post it's supposedly in reply to.

 

[HoSmash4]

Why is Diddy's disadvantage still considered terrible?

 

[Fenny]

So what you're saying is the superheavies are harder to master than the top tiers, and they almost never beat anyone above them on the tier list?

N-No?

I'm saying they're objectively worse then those with better options than them, which tends to be a big bulk of the cast

Bowser, DK and Charizard to a lesser extent arent hard to master at all compared to the likes of Shiek or Fox (it's literally just learning how to space, bait, follow up off of grabs and mix up your recovery as much as you can with them). They're relatively simple to get to grips with. Ganon functions sheerly off of bait and punishing, and DDD functions off of MU inexperience.

They're just mediocre or outright bad :<

The superheavies are High Risk/High Reward (though Bowser seems like Medium Risk/High Reward), it seems, but there's no way they're completely horrible (especially not the ones in Bottom 5).

DDD has no substantial reward for virtually anything he does

The other superheavies are all high risk because by design their disadvantage is booty buttcheek. The difference is how bad their disadvantage is and what tools they have to somewhat mitigate it.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The other superheavies are all high risk because by design their disadvantage is booty buttcheek. The difference is how bad their disadvantage is and what tools they have to somewhat mitigate it.

And me with all the maturity of a two-year-old started snickering when you said 'booty buttcheek'

To be honest this is why I'm downright terrified to get into anything competitive like Anther's ladder.
I main charizard and I have ever since brawl and pokemon trainer (I once challenged myself to ONLY use charizard in all-star mode on intense difficulty in brawl and pulled it off! While using every single healing item of course) I had no idea the smash boards even existed back then...now people are throwing around frame data (1/60th of a second, way too fast for me to keep up with) and using terms that go right over my head.
Now my favorite character is essentially cannon fodder unless it's in the skills of a good player who not only knows the basics but all of these advanced techniques!

oof sorry for the wall of text but it's like I haven't been playing Smash properly all this time...

 

[bc1910]

having a positive MU over , especially pre-patch, was a meme.

Greninja is still one of the best equipped characters to fight her.

There is no data to suggest he wins though. Just that he doesn't get trounced as hard as 90% of the cast.

 

[Fenny]

And me with all the maturity of a two-year-old started snickering when you said 'booty buttcheek'

To be honest this is why I'm downright terrified to get into anything competitive like Anther's ladder.
I main charizard and I have ever since brawl and pokemon trainer (I once challenged myself to ONLY use charizard in all-star mode on intense difficulty in brawl and pulled it off! While using every single healing item of course) I had no idea the smash boards even existed back then...now people are throwing around frame data (1/60th of a second, way too fast for me to keep up with) and using terms that go right over my head.
Now my favorite character is essentially cannon fodder unless it's in the skills of a good player who not only knows the basics but all of these advanced techniques!

oof sorry for the wall of text but it's like I haven't been playing Smash properly all this time...

You don't need to pay a great deal of attention to the frame statistics of characters to be terribly honest. For me, with Smash being a video game, I vastly prefer to learn kinesthetically, through experience and testing waters. Frame data just gives you a good idea of what is useful and your best response options in certain situations.

Otherwise I just generally understand that characters like Shiek and Fox are criminally fast in virtually all aspects, Mario's attacks are deceptively quick etc. Things that I learn from interacting with them, then might look up the actual numbers afterwards.

 

[Deleted member]

And me with all the maturity of a two-year-old started snickering when you said 'booty buttcheek'

To be honest this is why I'm downright terrified to get into anything competitive like Anther's ladder.
I main charizard and I have ever since brawl and pokemon trainer (I once challenged myself to ONLY use charizard in all-star mode on intense difficulty in brawl and pulled it off! While using every single healing item of course) I had no idea the smash boards even existed back then...now people are throwing around frame data (1/60th of a second, way too fast for me to keep up with) and using terms that go right over my head.
Now my favorite character is essentially cannon fodder unless it's in the skills of a good player who not only knows the basics but all of these advanced techniques!

oof sorry for the wall of text but it's like I haven't been playing Smash properly all this time...

Lots of people assume that Charizard is a secret mid tier character, and while I agree, it's gonna take a lot of knowledge about Zard's horrible air speed among other things related to superheavies to play him effectively.