Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[QualityQ]

The sad thing about Pac-Man is he sees so little play (even lower that Pits!) that people tend to spread the same information without knowing the character. Even ESAM has to say, "I might be wrong."

I like to counter this with videos of Pac-man techniques that are a bit dated but provide a better picture of what higher-level play from Pac looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br3nKDDzhgA -Traps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD9rj1W04ko -More ledge stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTpI4ghnNqM -Combos & such

I mean.. trampoline, hydrant, fruit, z-drops, footstools... what more do you want? Certainly he has better shield pressure than DHD from hydrant alone? There are very few characters that make you play *their* game, and Pac definitely does just that.

He reminds me of MegaMan, in that most people think MegaMan is garbage until you see someone really good with the character.

 

[BSP]

Out if curiosity, how does Mewtwo not projectile camp him well? And how does Pac Man get past utilt?

Mewtwo can't fire shadow balls faster than Pac-Man can pellet heal off of them (or block) on reaction. If Mewtwo is holding the fruit and intending to sit half screen or more and fire them, he's not going to get anywhere.

If he's closer than half screen / jumping around to pressure Pac-Man with aerials while controlling the fruit, he's not really projectile camping him.

As for Utilt, Mewtwo wouldn't be able to Utilt to begin with if he's holding the fruit. If we're talking about it in general, Pac-Man doesn't? He shouldn't challenge Mewtwo from above like that.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The sad thing about Pac-Man is he sees so little play (even lower that Pits!) that people tend to spread the same information without knowing the character. Even ESAM has to say, "I might be wrong."

I like to counter this with videos of Pac-man techniques that are a bit dated but provide a better picture of what higher-level play from Pac looks like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br3nKDDzhgA -Traps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD9rj1W04ko -More ledge stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTpI4ghnNqM -Combos & such

I mean.. trampoline, hydrant, fruit, z-drops, footstools... what more do you want? Certainly he has better shield pressure than DHD from hydrant alone? There are very few characters that make you play *their* game, and Pac definitely does just that.

He reminds me of MegaMan, in that most people think MegaMan is garbage until you see someone really good with the character.

I generally tend to not voice an opinion about Pac-man because every single thing he does looks like an avoidable situation/gimmick that you can never be in if you have enough experience against them.

...But I am no Pac-man expert.

 

[verbatim]

You gain a notable advantage once you learn some of the basic things to avoid, but Pacman has WAY too many options for someone to memorize all of them, even if they're a Pacman main.

Something we do is going to catch you off guard.

 

[BSP]

I generally tend to not voice an opinion about Pac-man because every single thing he does looks like an avoidable situation/gimmick that you can never be in if you have enough experience against them.

...But I am no Pac-man expert.

Generally I feel the same way, except you're going to get knocked offstage eventually. At the ledge, you're 1000 times more likely to fall for some trap because your options are much more limited.

You gain a notable advantage once you learn some of the basic things to avoid, but Pacman has WAY too many options for someone to memorize all of them, even if they're a Pacman main.

Something we do is going to catch you off guard.

See #00 in my giant post >_>

 

[Rizen]

"surprises" aside, Pac does have some things going for him that keep him out of bottom tier. Frame 3 Nair is always nice, a fast ranged kill move key, good recovery, and stage control. Then some of his gimmicks have good payoff when he can pull them off. He's not as good as I first assumed admittedly but I can't see him below the widely accepted low tiers.

 

[TDK]

Pac-mains criminally underuse Key.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Pac-mains criminally underuse Key.

Now I'm no Pacmain so this should probably be taken with a grain of salt, but that's...almost certainly not the case.

I mean, Key is an excellent projectile! It's fast, it does damage, it's got killing power, in enables Z-drop and hydrant shenanigans. And yet it's one of a set of tools that Pacman has, and oftentimes it's not the best.

It is fast and it kills, yes, but any opponent paying attention is going to know that Pac has the key, and will most likely play back and try to shield when it's thrown. And it is entirely blockable due to P's throwing animation.

Throw in the bit where it doesn't really set up for any of his traps or pressure and the sheer amount of time it takes to get to it, and there are reasons and reasons Pacmains use it less than you think they should.

 

[|RK|]

Mewtwo can't fire shadow balls faster than Pac-Man can pellet heal off of them (or block) on reaction. If Mewtwo is holding the fruit and intending to sit half screen or more and fire them, he's not going to get anywhere.

If he's closer than half screen / jumping around to pressure Pac-Man with aerials while controlling the fruit, he's not really projectile camping him.

As for Utilt, Mewtwo wouldn't be able to Utilt to begin with if he's holding the fruit. If we're talking about it in general, Pac-Man doesn't? He shouldn't challenge Mewtwo from above like that.

Ugh, I meant dtilt lol... But your point holds. And I guess if Pac Man is ahead, that makes sense.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Things come full circle.
Time to fite gheb 5evermore.
"We're getting the band back together!"

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I'm not emotionally ready for this

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Things come full circle.
Time to fite gheb 5evermore.
"We're getting the band back together!"

Dear God, it's the Brawl days all over again

Smooth Criminal

 

[SuperSmashGod]

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v2.0 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

--------------------TOP--------------------
S:
A:
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B:
C:
--------------------MID---------------------
D:
E:
--------------------LOW-------------------
F:
G:
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H:

Graphic Version:

Special thanks to @shrooby for the image.

Spoiler: Addendum for Mii Fighters

27 votes had Mii Fighters. While we were not able to accrue enough data for XXXX Miis, we did find results with 1111 Miis, which placed them into the bottom tier as follows:
H:

Spoiler: Voting Data

Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group) | Weighted Group | Difference from v1.0
Diddy Kong | 1.32 | 1.501 | 9.88 | 0.391 | 9.95 | +8
Cloud | 2.18 | 2.18 | 9.84 | 0.418 | 9.91 | +10
Sheik | 2.66 | 2.734 | 9.65 | 0.7 | 9.82 | -2
Rosalina | 3.39 | 2.085 | 9.66 | 0.634 | 9.85 | -1
Mario | 4.88 | 2.443 | 9.33 | 0.786 | 9.62 | +3
Sonic | 5.39 | 2.756 | 9.29 | 0.733 | 9.61 | ±0
Fox | 5.88 | 2.376 | 9.15 | 0.776 | 9.56 | ±0
Zero Suit Samus | 7.09 | 2.182 | 8.83 | 0.782 | 9.28 | -6
Ryu | 8.41 | 4.165 | 8.68 | 0.874 | 9.14 | -5
Mewtwo | 8.46 | 3.07 | 8.72 | 0.73 | 9.21 | +27
Bayonetta | 8.93 | 3.914 | 8.74 | 0.885 | 9.14 | New
Pikachu | 13.88 | 3.274 | 7.67 | 0.9 | 8.26 | -7
Meta Knight | 14.54 | 5.931 | 7.62 | 1.092 | 8.17 | -4
Villager | 15.07 | 4.358 | 7.51 | 0.806 | 8.08 | -3
Mega Man | 15.93 | 5.837 | 7.4 | 0.937 | 7.95 | +13
Ness | 16.39 | 4.916 | 7.41 | 1.068 | 8 | -3
Toon Link | 16.64 | 3.739 | 7.23 | 0.836 | 7.82 | +5
Corrin | 17.85 | 6.337 | 7.15 | 1.107 | 7.66 | New
Marth | 19.36 | 6.852 | 7.01 | 1.063 | 7.47 | +23
Captain Falcon | 20.95 | 4.615 | 6.72 | 0.922 | 7.26 | -6
Greninja | 21.11 | 5.731 | 6.8 | 1.052 | 7.32 | +4
Lucario | 21.52 | 5.405 | 6.63 | 0.968 | 7.14 | +1
Yoshi | 23.64 | 5.201 | 6.42 | 0.984 | 6.9 | -8
Pit | 23.73 | 6.264 | 6.39 | 1.115 | 6.83 | -6
Donkey Kong | 24.41 | 4.854 | 6.27 | 0.98 | 6.68 | +2
Peach | 24.52 | 5.898 | 6.2 | 1.079 | 6.64 | -7
Dark Pit | 24.89 | 5.888 | 6.27 | 1.044 | 6.68 | -10
R.O.B. | 25.64 | 5.393 | 6.08 | 1.17 | 6.51 | -8
Luigi | 27.34 | 6.583 | 5.95 | 1.126 | 6.26 | -13
Olimar | 30.93 | 7.914 | 5.62 | 1.338 | 5.94 | -6
Robin | 30.98 | 6.396 | 5.42 | 0.931 | 5.61 | ±0
Bowser | 31.55 | 5.812 | 5.23 | 1.018 | 5.4 | -2
Lucas | 32.18 | 7.071 | 5.17 | 1.149 | 5.34 | +3
Wario | 32.61 | 4.471 | 5.26 | 0.943 | 5.43 | -13
Ike | 32.68 | 5.711 | 5.06 | 1.03 | 5.08 | -7
Lucina | 34.52 | 7.746 | 4.95 | 1.178 | 5.08 | +13
Mr. Game & Watch | 37.8 | 6.637 | 4.38 | 1.337 | 4.33 | +1
Pac-Man | 38.73 | 6.016 | 4.34 | 1.097 | 4.18 | -6
Little Mac | 38.8 | 6.891 | 4.21 | 1.149 | 4.01 | +7
Palutena | 38.91 | 5.881 | 4.11 | 1.156 | 3.94 | +12
Kirby | 39.27 | 6.413 | 4.23 | 1.166 | 4.06 | -5
Duck Hunt | 40 | 7.697 | 4.21 | 1.303 | 4.05 | +3
Link | 40.64 | 8.186 | 4.09 | 1.338 | 3.94 | +1
Shulk | 41.77 | 6.753 | 3.86 | 1.267 | 3.6 | -2
Samus | 42.66 | 6.459 | 3.71 | 1.186 | 3.49 | +8
Bowser Jr. | 43.18 | 5.907 | 3.61 | 1.138 | 3.33 | -10
Wii Fit Trainer | 43.18 | 5.465 | 3.65 | 1.043 | 3.35 | -5
Dr. Mario | 45.16 | 4.554 | 3.47 | 1.051 | 3.11 | -1
Falco | 45.75 | 4.141 | 3.25 | 1.036 | 2.86 | -9
Roy | 46.02 | 5.323 | 3.38 | 1.191 | 3.08 | -15
Charizard | 48.27 | 3.763 | 2.82 | 1.077 | 2.48 | ±0
King Dedede | 49.02 | 4.06 | 2.7 | 1.146 | 2.32 | -6
Mii Gunner | 51.26 | 6.322 | 2.28 | 1.124 | 1.7 | +2
Mii Brawler | 51.89 | 6.696 | 2.26 | 1.316 | 1.76 | -3
Zelda | 52.07 | 2.235 | 1.92 | 0.616 | 1.49 | +3
Ganondorf | 52.66 | 2.254 | 1.9 | 0.651 | 1.47 | ±0
Mii Swordfighter | 53.85 | 3.951 | 2.04 | 0.947 | 1.53 | -2
Jigglypuff | 53.98 | 1.433 | 1.72 | 0.604 | 1.35 | -1

Spoiler: Text Version

--------------------TOP--------------------
S: Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik, Rosalina, Mario, Sonic, Fox
A: Zero Suit Samus, Ryu, Mewtwo, Bayonetta
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B: Pikachu, Meta Knight, Villager, Mega Man, Ness
C: Toon Link, Corrin, Marth, Captain Falcon, Greninja, Lucario
--------------------MID---------------------
D: Yoshi, Pit, Donkey Kong, Peach, Dark Pit, R.O.B., Luigi
E: Olimar, Robin, Bowser, Lucas, Wario, Ike, Lucina
--------------------LOW-------------------
F: Mr. Game & Watch, Pac-Man, Little Mac, Palutena, Kirby, Duck Hunt, Link
G: Shulk, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, Falco, Roy
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H: Charizard, King Dedede, Zelda, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff

Spoiler: Smashboards Tier List Maker Version

You can read the full article here.

The Tier List v1.0 Impressions Thread can be found here for archival's sake.

As with v1.0, a fleshed out blurb as well as special thanks can b e found there, and should be the primary reference point. The tier list assumes no custom movesets. As with the last tier list thread, this thread is to focus on the list and not off-topic discussion; the article is there for you otherwise. Feel free to ask questions (you can tag myself or @Shaya if you'd like, and hopefully we can get a few more members on board to answer some questions!)

Oh come on Roy! G Tier ?!! And Cloud should be numbah one.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Oh come on Roy! G Tier ?!! And Cloud should be numbah one.

And they put zard right next to the other bottom tiers. *shakes head* I don't believe that, at all. I mean I know he's bad but he's not THAT bad.

 

[FeelMeUp]

And they put zard right next to the other bottom tiers. *shakes head* I don't believe that, at all. I mean I know he's bad but he's not THAT bad.

Alright, guy, relax.
When a character's past a certain point of bad their placement really doesn't matter. As long as the consensus is bottom 3 there's nothing to worry about.

 

[Deleted member]

Karisuma 11 (JP - 71 entrants)

1) ikep
2) Earth
3) Fuwa
4) Ranai
5) Ke-ya
5) Taiheita
7) Onpu
7) Kuro
9) Kisha
9) NAI
9) Dio
9) Nga
13) Masha
13) Majinger
13) Tsu~
13) Umiushi

Onpu's Zelda is godlike.

 

[Das Koopa]

Ranai's Mega Man was the worst thing I've ever seen

I'm glad he got 4th lmao

 

[Deleted member]

Ranai's Mega Man was the worst thing I've ever seen

I'm glad he got 4th lmao

peeps wanting some of that rockman action

First it's Aba now Ranai, ironically after Kameme is investing more time into Sheik.

Speaking of Tru4 fought Kameme at SmashDown World just now and had a last stock-last hit first game with him. Too bad it went downhill when Kameme counterpicked Sheik.

 

[JB333]

Speaking of good Zelda play

maXy 2-0 Pikaforlife at Smashdown world

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ugh I'm going to have to deal with a wave of "Zelda is actually a good low tier and not bottom tier" now, aren't I?

 

[TDK]

What's with top japanese players counterpicking Mega Man these days?

 

[Laken64]

Well aba being the first I'm positive it was because he hates the vs MU and he's really desperate to beat ZeRo (but aren't we all lol) but it feels like there's a movement in Japan in general, I wonder if placing in Japan tier lists will change dramatically in the coming months?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Alright, guy, relax.
When a character's past a certain point of bad their placement really doesn't matter. As long as the consensus is bottom 3 there's nothing to worry about.

They say he's at the bottom 5 and is just as bad as jigglypuff, zelda and king dedede. I don't believe that for a second.

 

[soniczx123]

It's currently 1-1 between Glutonny and Kameme in SDW. This is before top8.

https://www.twitch.tv/gameline

EDIT: GLUTONNY TAKES IT OVER KAMEME 2-1 AFTER A LAST STOCK LAST HIT SITUATION

 

[JB333]

GLUTONNY'S WARIO IS THE TRUTH

 

[ShadowGuy1]

*Sees Esam put a top 30 character in bottom 3*

Okay good same Esam.


Honestly by this point you can barely call upsets aganist Esam upsets at all. That's how inconsistant he is.

Edit:Also, Pac-Man actually beats Corrin for similar reasons as why he beats Marth (Struggles when Pac-Man plays defensive with fruit and hydrant)

But they don't struggle with Fruits or Hydrant. Also how is PAC-Man top 30?!? He has almost nothing that makes him shoot that far up when compared to characters that are around the 30 mark like Peach. Please explain lol

 

[Deleted member]

Gluttony makes Wario look vastly better than he actually is.

Or we've been sleeping on the character for a while.

Maybe it's a combination of both.

 

[HoSmash4]

@Megamang thoughts on mega man wario matchup?

 

[Diamond Octobot]

If you ask me, it's closer to MU inexerience. I mean yes, falling for tricks every once in a while is okay, but he did eat the BAirs while coming back to SV's Platforms & got FAirLocked a few times... Maybe it's just that Glutonny is THAT good. But I think Mega Man players already knew that the MU isn't exactly in our favor... Maybe a good ole 55:45 in Wario's advantage ? My memory fails me...

 

[soniczx123]

If you ask me, it's closer to MU inexerience. I mean yes, falling for tricks every once in a while is okay, but he did eat the BAirs while coming back to SV's Platforms & got FAirLocked a few times... Maybe it's just that Glutonny is THAT good. But I think Mega Man players already knew that the MU isn't exactly in our favor... Maybe a good ole 55:45 in Wario's advantage ? My memory fails me...

Kameme plays the character and had Nasubi in his region when he played Wario.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

You might be right here... But remember that two people can play the same chaaracter very differently (which was probably the case here), and that playing one character doesn't always mean you know how to handle him. Someone else keeping you in check gives you some ideas of your character's weaknesses, through...

So yeah, if I had to rephrase myself, it wasn't exactly MU inexperience, but more Kameme not being able to keep Glutonny completely in check, despite having the advantage. Clutch wins are still very good, through.

 

[Routa]

I also want to point out that Gluttony's Wario is a lot different to that of a average Wario. He is aggressive. This different playstyle can confuse people. I mean if you have fought against defensive Warios all your life and then all the sudden you fight against aggressive one..? Well you would be having a hard time.

 

[money1246]

@EmblemLord How do you view the Ryu - Mario matchup? I think it's +1 Ryu because of Ryu outdamaging Mario and various other factors (great ranged bair, able to directly challenge Mario Up Smash, etc...). Venom has beaten Ally a couple of times and everytime they play it's always close.

 

[Das Koopa]

This is the set that might put non-Mr. R Europe on the map. Can't say I expected it - S1, Ixis, and iStudying (all of whom I would've guessed major contenders for upsets) all bombed while LoNg0uw and Gluttony had really good performances. Top 8 will be exciting.

SMASHDOWN WORLD TOP 8

Winners:

Mr. R v Komorikiri
ANTi v Gluttony

Losers:

Kameme v LoNg0uw
Cyve v Sodrek

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Megamang thoughts on mega man wario matchup?

Hi, I'm not Megamang but I'd like to take this opportunity to remind you that I have made several posts about Wario's matchups on various occasions. One of the main points I have made is that Wario does generally well against annoying, small, projectile based characters like Villager, Pac-Man, Duck Hunt and -you guessed it- Mega Man.

Wario's still kind of bad though.

 

[soniczx123]

Hi, I'm not Megamang but I'd like to take this opportunity to remind you that I have made several posts about Wario's matchups on various occasions. One of the main points I have made is that Wario does generally well against annoying, small, projectile based characters like Villager, Pac-Man, Duck Hunt and -you guessed it- Mega Man.

Wario's still kind of bad though.

Why though??

 

[Bowserboy3]

For those interested, tournament in the East Midlands in the UK today.

Smashzilla 5 (66 entrants) - https://smash.gg/tournament/smashzilla-5/events/wii-u-singles/brackets

1) Afro Smash
2) Kibzu /
3) Willz /
4) DX17
5) Magi /
5) Cong
7) MartynMW
7) Cansdotwav
9) wilksy15
9) Jam /
9) G~P /
9) Bulby /
13) SBF /
13) Sir Swampert /
13) Captain JJ
13) Moke /

Also shoutouts to FOB repping the mains at 17th place, the fraud!

I can confirm that Kibzu is (almost) a god. This guy is 14, his tech skill is through the roof. The guy was in my pool, and I'm not ashamed to say I got utterly creamed (as did everybody else).

Yeah, we have some strange variety here in the UK.

---

On a side note, this strange thing happened with Cloud's Limit Up B again today... anyone care to explain why this happens?
https://clips.twitch.tv/playgeekzilla/CloudyReindeerRedCoat

 

[TDK]

On a side note, this strange thing happened with Cloud's Limit Up B again today... anyone care to explain why this happens?
https://clips.twitch.tv/playgeekzilla/CloudyReindeerRedCoat

This removes the possibility of ZeRo's video being a hoax with low damage ratio settings, at least.

And once again, Afro took the full 13% double hits.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

hi everyone im here to explain why wario is top ten kappa

 

[Deleted member]

hi everyone im here to explain why wario is top ten kappa

And this is a productive post how?