Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TheGoodGuava]

FWIW, I can see Zard being the second best heavy (better than DK, worse than Bowser) long-term.

What makes Bowser better though? Not saying I disagree with you, I just don't know what Bowser has over Zard other than a kill confirm

 

[SaltyKracka]

Optimism is nice and all, but placing Zard over either DK or Bowser runs smack dab into the fact that they're just better than he is.

And the easy early kill confirms they both have are the primary reason.

 

[KenMeister]

Funny you say that, the Falco main AC is ranked above Vicegrip on the PR lol. The reality is you can argue that almost every character has decent results. Results aren't the be-all-and-end-all anyways.

Kirby is theoretically a good counterpick to some really good characters e.g. Fox, Falcon, Sheik (yes, while he doesn't beat Sheik or anything, he has a better MU than most) which boosts his viability in my book.

Wow, Fox and....who else? Falcon isn't exactly as relevant as he used to be anymore (unless you're still living in 2015) and Sheik's still a losing MU regardless. You can counterpick against Kirby with literally any other character in the game because Kirby loses to like 90% of the cast so any hope of Kirby being a consistent counterpick is thrown out the window.

 

[arbustopachon]

Wellp the kill confirm matters a lot. Specially since bowser's grab is very good. Zard might be a better edgeguarder and juggler but that doesn't mather that much when bowser can consistently kill at like 80%

Bowser is also way bulkier than the Llzard and doesn't have to deal with the dumbest hurtbox in the game. Zard's head hurtbox is so awful it extends over his gigantic grab!

Bowser also has a much better oos game, because the Zard is just so slippery.

Zard would kill to have Bowser's f-tilt too.

 

[KenMeister]

I think DK and Bowser's OoS options and grab range alone kind of just keep them better than Zard overall sadly

 

[Deleted member]

"Falcon isn't relevant" is one dumbass meme that needs to die.

The character still gets some of the most consistent results in this patch at all levels of play, and Fatality and Tearbear still continue to do very well.

 

[KenMeister]

Fatality and consistency don't exactly go together in the same sentence. Lmao

 

[my_T]

DK's OoS options are not better than Zards

 

[Rizen]

Charizard has good OoS and probably is lower mid tier. Grab does have decent range but his head poking out was a dumb design choice when approaching. His UpB is a good finisher from OoS or jab that hits in front of him more than the animation shows. I don't see how anyone can say he's better than DK though.

 

[Deleted member]

Zard's OoS isn't that threatening when he has the second worst traction in the game.

Characters like Buster,, and can easily bully his shield.

 

[PoptartLord]

Also, Beefy Smash Doods has some new info for us all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GAg33X9qvs

This is pretty interesting, and begs to be broken. Thoughts?

This wasn't widely known already? A long time ago I saw this on one of the Shockwave stream's "Tech of the Week" segments. I think it was called Ledge Denial?

Anyway, I get a *ton* of use out of this. Depending on the character you're facing, and whether or not they have their double-jump left, it can lead to (salt inducing) kills. If they're teleporters they'll find themselves right above you in special fall. Hitbox recoveries can be shielded -> punished (against Marth, Kirby, etc.), or go for an offstage spike (against Link, DK, etc.) depending on where the hitbox is.

Now for some examples of things I've personally done (so not just training mode combos against cpus). As Charizard I'll stand at the ledge and hold out Flamethrower, angling down as the opponent passes by. It intercepts their recovery move once or twice, then I stop and either d-smash or d-tilt and they run right into it. They had to - if they wait out the ledge grab denial timer they'll be too far down to recover. I have ended soooooo many Cloud stocks this way. Against teleporters I prefer u/f-smash though, or sometimes an aerial if there's a platform for them to land on nearby.

Ledge denial to spike is a real thing. I've pulled it off against DKs, Falcons, and even Marths (that one is tricky).

This one is Fox/Falco specific. If they try to recover with side-b to grab the ledge, intercept it with an attack that sends them mostly horizontally (i.e. Marth and Charizard d-tilt). Their natural reaction will be to side-b back. If they do, they'll stall at the ledge unable to grab it. Punish that pause as hard as you can. Now if they use up-b to recover low, punish that as normal. In my last tournament match against a Fox (as Marth) I ended the set with a side-b interrupting d-tilt -> another side-b interrupting d-tilt -> tipper f-smash (spaced as if to hit someone grabbing the ledge twice). I had been swatting away most of his previous up-b recoveries previously; I assume that's why he side-b'd 3x.

But now for my absolute favorite use of this tech so far. I was Marth against a DeDeDe. He was on his final stock and recovering with his up-b such that he'd grab the ledge on descent. So I hopped over the ledge, activated my counter, and intercepted his recovery. I hit the armored part of the recovery, but that was enough to activate the ledge denial timer. So DeDeDe went right past the ledge and straight to the blastzone.

tl;dr - It's a thing, and it works. It can force people to recover in really bad and/or predictable ways with no ledge-grabbing protection.

-PoptartLord

 

[|RK|]

Zard's OoS isn't that threatening when he has the second worst traction in the game.

Characters like Buster,, and can easily bully his shield.

To be fair, you could say the exact same sentence about Mewtwo.

 

[Deleted member]

To be fair, you could say the exact same sentence about Mewtwo.

Everything else about Mewtwo more than enough makes up for it though.

The same cannot be said about Zard. I'm not understanding your argument here.

 

[Krysco]

All of this low and bottom tier talk and it took awhile for Zard and Brawler to be mentioned and heck, Pac-Man, Jr., and WFT got mentioned and yet surprisingly no Roy. Watch it be because people forgot about him.

It's interesting seeing people say that x character is really y tier instead of z tier. Every time I see a post like that, I go to the first page and see how much of a jump that is relative to that particular format. Like Zard being low tier just takes going up one spot or being physically moved to low tier while maintaining his same position relative to the rest of the cast. Then you have things like Zard again, Link, Palutena, Mac, G&W, and to a lesser point Roy and Shulk being predicted to be mid tier (albeit lower mid). Going off of memory so some of those could be wrong. On the other end of the list, you've got Ryu deemed no longer top tier and there was just a discussion of how Rosa isn't top 10 with the current top tier being made up of 11 characters. Take out Ryu and it's 10 and take out Rosa and she's now just a high tier.

Based off recollections of 'common' predictions you'd have

Spoiler

possibly go up to low or mid tier
possibly go up to top tier
possibly go up to mid tier
possibly go up to high tier
possibly go down to high tier
possibly go down to mid tier
most likely go down to high tier
Seems to have died down but there was also a time that was predicted to go to top tier

Common being in air quotes since Roy for example, isn't talked about much as it is while Marth is talked about quite often so it's a lot easier to find an opinion on him.

 

[Deleted member]

If is ever gonna move to mid tier I'd only put him at the bottom of it at absolute best.

only have room to drop, if you ask me. I've been a defender of Palutena for a while but she jsut doesn't have the longevity to perform well in this meta imo.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'll actually be writing an article about "Low Tier Heroes" on a blog I'm in the process of making. Specifically, characters & players who tended to change perceptions of characters and how they broke some major barriers by proving in-tournament that they can be successful. T with , IcyMist with , and Regi with are some of the best examples of minor metagame shifts with lower-level characters.

If is ever gonna move to mid tier I'd only put him at the bottom of it at absolute best.

Kome might be "the one". Hopefully.

 

[KenMeister]

If is ever gonna move to mid tier I'd only put him at the bottom of it at absolute best.

only have room to drop, if you ask me. I've been a defender of Palutena for a while but she jsut doesn't have the longevity to perform well in this meta imo.

Prince Ramen's consistent placings say hi.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Link is anywhere between bottom 15 and top 20 depending on who you ask, I'm surprised there isn't much discussion of him

 

[Deleted member]

I'll actually be writing an article about "Low Tier Heroes" on a blog I'm in the process of making. Specifically, characters & players who tended to change perceptions of characters and how they broke some major barriers by proving in-tournament that they can be successful. T with , IcyMist with , and Regi with are some of the best examples of minor metagame shifts with lower-level characters.



Kome might be "the one". Hopefully.

Masha has better results than Kome, though Kome is definitely really good.

Masha

• 17th at Umebura 25 [9/10/16] (Super regional | 212 entrants)
• 13th at Karisuma 10 [10/8/16] (Regional | 96 entrants)
• 9th at Sumabato 14 [10/22/16] (Super regional | 197 entrants)

Kome

• 9th at Shulla-bra VII [7/16/16] (Regional | 115 entrants)
• 25th at Sumabato 14 [10/22/16] (Super regional | 197 entrants)
• 1st at KIT Festival [11/19/16] (Local | 48 entrants)

Nicko already does very well and is continuing to improve, so I'm banking on him to carry most of Shulk's perception in America. He's been invited to a 16-person invitational in SoCal so I'm curious how he'll do there. He's also planning to attend ZeRo Saga and G4.

I feel like you should include him in the article too, but that's just me.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

"Falcon isn't relevant" is one ******* meme that needs to die.

The character still gets some of the most consistent results in this patch at all levels of play, and Fatality and Tearbear still continue to do very well.

problem is generally similar to . Due to havimg some pretty poor MU's with a lot of top tiers holds him back somewhat and are two of the most common and prominent characters in the meta who wreck Falcon due to his terrible disavantage state and how vulnerable he is offstage

 

[Das Koopa]

Link is anywhere between bottom 15 and top 20 depending on who you ask, I'm surprised there isn't much discussion of him

My current mains are Meta Knight/Marth/Cloud (<3 disjoints) and I've been planning on getting into Link. I think he leans closer to the mid-tier area (35-25, I guess?) but it's going to take a while to know for sure how much of T's success is matchup inexperience or if Link has just been a misused character.

With Dabuz having struggled against Sigma and T beating Kirihara, my thought process has moved to Rosalina & Luma struggling vs. disjointed characters a bit since they have an easier time handling Luma, even ones like Link. You saw Sigma applying a lot of Zair and projectile pressure to Luma when he could, and I'd like to see T vs. Kirihara if the VOD exists and see if well spaced disjoints really sunk Kirihara.

 

[TDK]

My current mains are Meta Knight/Marth/Cloud (<3 disjoints) and I've been planning on getting into Link. I think he leans closer to the mid-tier area (35-25, I guess?) but it's going to take a while to know for sure how much of T's success is matchup inexperience or if Link has just been a misused character.

With Dabuz having struggled against Sigma and T beating Kirihara, my thought process has moved to Rosalina & Luma struggling vs. disjointed characters a bit since they have an easier time handling Luma, even ones like Link. You saw Sigma applying a lot of Zair and projectile pressure to Luma when he could, and I'd like to see T vs. Kirihara if the VOD exists and see if well spaced disjoints really sunk Kirihara.

Welcome to the dark side, Koopa.

Personally I think Link's 35th right now with potential to go higher.

 

[jet56]

If is ever gonna move to mid tier I'd only put him at the bottom of it at absolute best.

only have room to drop, if you ask me. I've been a defender of Palutena for a while but she jsut doesn't have the longevity to perform well in this meta imo.

I'm curious as to why you think mac
will drop off over time. He has a strong playerbase, relevant results from multiple players over the last 6 months, and has the character potential to keep getting better. His "consistency" problem is inherently solved through player dedication and practice, as it is ultimately on the player to be consistent, not the character, even if his toolset is volatile. I honestly see him as 29th, possibly better, and his results reflect that.

 

[bc1910]

Consistency is absolutely a character issue. It's the main reason why Melee Falcon isn't top tier. Most if not all the top players have dabbled in Falcon at this point, so it's not like he's lacked representation. If your reward is heavily dependent on 50/50s, non-reaction tech chases and the like, you will suffer in the long run.

That said, I don't see how consistency is Mac's issue. He's consistently unstoppable on the ground and consistently shut down through edgeguarding, platform camping and general abuse of his terrible air game.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm curious as to why you think mac
will drop off over time. He has a strong playerbase, relevant results from multiple players over the last 6 months, and has the character potential to keep getting better. His "consistency" problem is inherently solved through player dedication and practice, as it is ultimately on the player to be consistent, not the character, even if his toolset is volatile. I honestly see him as 29th, possibly better, and his results reflect that.

Mac has what's most likely the best grounded neutral in the game, so he'll always be relevant in some shape or form. It feels like to me the volatility of his matchups will keep him naturally inconsistent, but that's mostly just my guts. I acknowledge what he's been able to do this year.

 

[my_T]

Masha has better results than Kome, though Kome is definitely really good.

Masha

• 17th at Umebura 25 [9/10/16] (Super regional | 212 entrants)
• 13th at Karisuma 10 [10/8/16] (Regional | 96 entrants)
• 9th at Sumabato 14 [10/22/16] (Super regional | 197 entrants)

Kome

• 9th at Shulla-bra VII [7/16/16] (Regional | 115 entrants)
• 25th at Sumabato 14 [10/22/16] (Super regional | 197 entrants)
• 1st at KIT Festival [11/19/16] (Local | 48 entrants)

Nicko already does very well and is continuing to improve, so I'm banking on him to carry most of Shulk's perception in America. He's been invited to a 16-person invitational in SoCal so I'm curious how he'll do there. He's also planning to attend ZeRo Saga and G4.

I feel like you should include him in the article too, but that's just me.

Which of them have taken more sets off of top players? That's who deserves the throne. A good raw placing is nice but it can be obtained through an easy bracket

 

[Deleted member]

Which of them have taken more sets off of top players? That's who deserves the throne. A good raw placing is nice but it can be obtained through an easy bracket

Kome has beaten Shuton. Masha has beaten You3. That's all I know so far.

Masha is also ranked on Japan PR while Kome isn't, so yeah.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

For Shulk, I also think Scarhi, Darkwolf, and Tremendo Dude could be looked at.

 

[Deleted member]

For Shulk, I also think Scarhi, Darkwolf, and Tremendo Dude could be looked at.

Darkwolf has trouble speaking English, so that's something to note. Somebody could properly translate him tho.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm curious as to why you think mac
will drop off over time. He has a strong playerbase, relevant results from multiple players over the last 6 months, and has the character potential to keep getting better. His "consistency" problem is inherently solved through player dedication and practice, as it is ultimately on the player to be consistent, not the character, even if his toolset is volatile. I honestly see him as 29th, possibly better, and his results reflect that.

You don't understand how this works do you?

 

[jet56]

Then please, enlighten me. Apparently, I'm missing a very important concept here.

 

[The-Technique]

If is ever gonna move to mid tier I'd only put him at the bottom of it at absolute best.

only have room to drop, if you ask me. I've been a defender of Palutena for a while but she jsut doesn't have the longevity to perform well in this meta imo.

I disagree with Palutena. The tools and attributes that Palutena possesses (great grounded mobility, fastest air acceleration, safe mid-range aerial pokes, great grab game) make it so that there's no matchup that's unwinnable for her, even versus top tiers (though at the same time she doesn't particularly have greatly advantaged matchups either). Basically she has an answer for most situations, such that how well Palutena performs ultimately comes down to the player's skill, that's how players like Prince Ramen and TLTC remain relevant despite using a supposedly bad character.

She's not going rise very high with her current kit but she won't fall that much, either.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

As a zard main I just want to put in that despite having goddawful air speed I adore the landing lag on nair. I've surprised many an opponent by landing with nair and then following up with jab or tilt.

 

[Rizen]

As a zard main I just want to put in that despite having goddawful air speed I adore the landing lag on nair. I've surprised many an opponent by landing with nair and then following up with jab or tilt.

The 20 frames of landing lag?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

The 20 frames of landing lag?

Hes probably referring to the autocancel frames of the move, only 6 frames after the final hitbox

 

[Rizen]

Hes probably referring to the autocancel frames of the move, only 6 frames after the final hitbox

That makes more sense.

 

[BSP]

I've been thinking about it for a few weeks, but never really thought to ask before.
Why has no one mentioned Sheik's ftilt when considering the best tilts in the game and how the hell has this move never been nerfed? Combined with having one of the best walks in the game she has a tilt that's almost completely safe on block and combos or 50/50s at every relevant percent in the game. Combined with PP and buffered aerials you get put in a lot of "at Sheik's mercy" situations where she can mindlessly ftilt at you knowing there's not a damn thing you can do about it.
Fighting a floaty? Ftilt Uair works around 30-40. Fighting a fastfaller? Ftilt confirms into 50+ damage on hit.
In general? Combos into her 3 main aerials for massive stage control, has the obvious Ftilt Uair 50/50 for a very very generoud percent range, instantly stuffs certain moves like Illusion Gordo and Spin Dash, DI traps into big damage on combos like ftilt>PP utilt>FH needles>Anything or Ftilt RaR double bair, etc.
This move is borked and I think it's the main reason she doesn't lose certain MUs() while dominating others()

I generally agree with what you said and I know this is picky, but I'm surprised nobody said anything about the "almost completely safe on block" quip.

What's that mean to people? Sheik's Ftilt is -5 on shield drop. Unless your character is straight garbage in CQC, you can probably drop shield and hit her for Ftilting your shield. Will it take amazing reactions? Yes, but that's part of being a good player.

Now if she's retreating with it from a PP or something, yeah, it's essentially safe. However something that is actually nearly safe on block is Falcon's Uair done perfectly. God, that move is stupid. I believe only Mario, Doc, and Pac-Man have guaranteed punishes on Falcon if he does it correctly, and Pac-Man only if Falcon lands directly on top of him.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hes probably referring to the autocancel frames of the move, only 6 frames after the final hitbox

Yeah that's what I meant, it's only 1/10th of a second on autocancel, that's super lightning fast!

 

[FeelMeUp]

I generally agree with what you said and I know this is picky, but I'm surprised nobody said anything about the "almost completely safe on block" quip.

What's that mean to people? Sheik's Ftilt is -5 on shield drop. Unless your character is straight garbage in CQC, you can probably drop shield and hit her for Ftilting your shield. Will it take amazing reactions? Yes, but that's part of being a good player.

Now if she's retreating with it from a PP or something, yeah, it's essentially safe. However something that is actually nearly safe on block is Falcon's Uair done perfectly. God, that move is stupid. I believe only Mario, Doc, and Pac-Man have guaranteed punishes on Falcon if he does it correctly, and Pac-Man only if Falcon lands directly on top of him.

In both my personal experiences and watching what top Sheiks do, trying to punish max range Ftilt usually gets you jabbed or Ftilted again after you drop your own shield.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Sheik can get ~40% off of ftilts against every character I play so I'd rather not try to punish it