Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[valakmtnsmash4]

ignore this

 

[wedl!!]

What if Villager gets banned because of that lock setup? MU spreads would have to be rearranged if one character is omitted, possibly tier lists, too. But I am just wondering aloud.

So can we just ban Mewtwo already

 

[meticulousboy]

Wow. I totally forgot about his lock from Disable. I mean, if there's a lock that works eternally, then an issue can arise in the meta.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Wow. I totally forgot about his lock from Disable. I mean, if there's a lock that works eternally, then an issue can arise in the meta.

Or you could just not get hit by them because they're pretty easy to avoid.

That works too.

The fact that you forgot about it should show how much of an impact it has made to the meta.

 

[Radical Larry]

Wow. I totally forgot about his lock from Disable. I mean, if there's a lock that works eternally, then an issue can arise in the meta.

There could be an issue that arises if the lock becomes widespread knowledge again. I honestly can't believe people have forgotten about this tactic so easily, too.

Or you could just not get hit by them because they're pretty easy to avoid.

That works too.

The fact that you forgot about it should show how much of an impact it has made to the meta.

While you are correct, the meta may end up evolving and the lock might end up getting its fair share of uses once again later on. It's hard to tell right now, of course, since I've not seen it get much use, but if people can make it mainstream and start winning tournaments with it or something, then it might become a problem.

 

[Zelder]

Excellent, let's continue this discussion about the possible off chance that relatively underused characters Mewtwo and Villager will get banned in the future because their incredibly situational, hard to pull off 0-to-deaths, only one of which has ever been demonstrated in a competitive setting, may centralize the meta. In the meantime, could someone help me gaze directly into my own navel?

 

[Krysco]

If there's any fear of Mewtwo or Villager getting banned or their infinites getting banned, I'd love to see the reaction to Falcon if customs ever come back.

Works on the entire cast and has never been patched (although this was uploaded before we had access to Cloud, Corrin or Bayo)

On the one hand, you don't see Villager's or Mewtwo's taking tournaments by storm. They aren't characters everyone is picking up and doing well with. On the other hand, I can imagine people sat there with the same impression about MK and his ladder combo and then I wanna say Abadango was the one who got put in the spotlight for making use of it? May have been Leo or Ito.

 

[Megamang]

...

So what are some good users (abusers?) Of the non techable spin animation? I find myself spacing with ZSS's zair a lot more. We know fox's ftilt can set you up, and that has pretty amazing frame data for a 25% chance to kill (less, since there are ranges to DI up or offstage, but going offstage at high damage vs fox sucks too).

Anything else? Typing this, i hope gren has something since i think youd get a guaranteed SS, ill lab it in a few hrs.

(Can villy's setup nair be untechable, making the infinite setup guaranteed?)

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

While you are correct, the meta may end up evolving and the lock might end up getting its fair share of uses once again later on. It's hard to tell right now, of course, since I've not seen it get much use, but if people can make it mainstream and start winning tournaments with it or something, then it might become a problem.

If that were to happen then the meta would evolve and people would find even more ways to avoid it (ex. Melee Ice Climbers Wobbling, which is even harder to avoid seeing as it happens via grabbing and there are set ups into grab, yet we still see people avoid it). If something is problematic, then find away to avoid the problem as much as possible (something already very easy to do in these situations).

So what are some good users (abusers?) Of the non techable spin animation? I find myself spacing with ZSS's zair a lot more. We know fox's ftilt can set you up, and that has pretty amazing frame data for a 25% chance to kill (less, since there are ranges to DI up or offstage, but going offstage at high damage vs fox sucks too).

Fox in general is great at abusing it. Ftilt, nair, and dair can all cause the animation, which all lead into Fox's up smash conveniently at the percents where the non-techable animation begins to happen.

 

[bc1910]

...

So what are some good users (abusers?) Of the non techable spin animation? I find myself spacing with ZSS's zair a lot more. We know fox's ftilt can set you up, and that has pretty amazing frame data for a 25% chance to kill (less, since there are ranges to DI up or offstage, but going offstage at high damage vs fox sucks too).

Anything else? Typing this, i hope gren has something since i think youd get a guaranteed SS, ill lab it in a few hrs.

(Can villy's setup nair be untechable, making the infinite setup guaranteed?)

IIRC, SS can't hit opponents that are lying on the ground. It's probably not fast enough anyway.

You can probably get stutterstep Fsmash though.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Kodystri, PKBlueberry, and Jebb put together a lucas matchup chart. These are the top lucas mains in NA(wonder why mekos wasnt consulted)

 

[Ulevo]

Kodystri, PKBlueberry, and Jebb put together a lucas matchup chart. These are the top lucas mains in NA(wonder why mekos wasnt consulted)

I find Meta Knight versus Lucas 45:55 to be highly suspect. On initial inspection I would rate this as 6:4.

 

[Luco]

Ulevo On which side are you referring to in your own rating? Lucas' favour or MK's?

 

[Kofu]

...

So what are some good users (abusers?) Of the non techable spin animation? I find myself spacing with ZSS's zair a lot more. We know fox's ftilt can set you up, and that has pretty amazing frame data for a 25% chance to kill (less, since there are ranges to DI up or offstage, but going offstage at high damage vs fox sucks too).

Anything else? Typing this, i hope gren has something since i think youd get a guaranteed SS, ill lab it in a few hrs.

(Can villy's setup nair be untechable, making the infinite setup guaranteed?)

The reeling animation only occurs over 100%, so no.

Thanks Obama autocorrect

 

[Rizen]

Kodystri, PKBlueberry, and Jebb put together a lucas matchup chart. These are the top lucas mains in NA(wonder why mekos wasnt consulted)

Ganon's even but Link and some other characters are an advantage for Lucas? I would like to hear the reasoning behind that.

 

[adom4]

Ganon's even but Link and some other characters are an advantage for Lucas? I would like to hear the reasoning behind that.

From what i've played it's just that Lucas doesn't really have anything oppressive vs Ganon, personally i think it's slight adv Lucas but it's easier in practice than in paper, Lucas isn't jank enough.

 

[Rizen]

From what i've played it's just that Lucas doesn't really have anything oppressive vs Ganon, personally i think it's slight adv Lucas but it's easier on practice than on paper, Lucas isn't jank enough.

I'd have Ganon at least a +1 (for Lucas), Lucas playing keep away is a pain and he destroys ganon offstage. Lucas on T&C or DH is stupid for Ganon.
My point was more about why is Ganon a harder MU than characters like MK, Robin, Link and Yoshi, etc? Out of my admittedly limited experience with these characters, that are rated an easier MU than Ganon, I'd rather play Link, G&W or even Zelda than Ganon vs him.

What does Lucas have that is so oppressive to them but not Ganon?

 

[adom4]

I'd have Ganon at least a +1 (for Lucas), Lucas playing keep away is a pain and he destroys ganon offstage. Lucas on T&C or DH is stupid for Ganon.
My point was more about why is Ganon a harder MU than characters like MK, Robin, Link and Yoshi, etc? Out of my admittedly limited experience with these characters, that are rated an easier MU than Ganon, I'd rather play Link, G&W or even Zelda than Ganon vs him.

What does Lucas have that is so oppressive to them but not Ganon?

idk about the other characters but i know that Ganon can do fine vs Lucas, his huge range & good choke follow ups help a ton & offstage is rough but not really that much worse than most characters.

 

[Radical Larry]

Kodystri, PKBlueberry, and Jebb put together a lucas matchup chart. These are the top lucas mains in NA(wonder why mekos wasnt consulted)

I actually don't believe Link loses to Lucas, but it's the other way around. Simply put, he can wall Lucas out like every other sword fighter can, he has projectiles that can't be absorbed by Lucas's PSI Magnet directly (only indirectly with Bombs) and while Lucas has mobility and combo power, Link has raw power and range at his disposal. There's really nothing Lucas can do to Link other than try punishing Link's cooldown on various attacks or try grabbing. You're just not going to get far against Link as Lucas. Lucas has a very poor disadvantage state against Link and Link has a good disadvantage state against Lucas, both vertically and horizontally. CQC definitely goes to Lucas, but Link can just camp Lucas if he wants to.

I find Link has a 55:45 advantage over Lucas, at least.

Ganon's even but Link and some other characters are an advantage for Lucas? I would like to hear the reasoning behind that.

Probably because they've never fought that many Link players or the ones they did fight aren't that good. If not that, then you've got me.

 

[Illuminose]

Worth noting for the sake of this discussion that Gungnir played Taiheita in tournament and beat him.

That said the charts of Taiheita/Mekos are more accurate I think.

 

[Ulevo]

Ulevo On which side are you referring to in your own rating? Lucas' favour or MK's?

I am suggesting Meta Knight wins.

 

[Yikarur]

Worth noting for the sake of this discussion that Gungnir played Taiheita in tournament and beat him.

That said the charts of Taiheita/Mekos are more accurate I think.

What character is Gungnir playing?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Gungnir is a Ganondorf player who I think is probably the best Ganondorf in the world period. If he could attend/go to more stuff and play more often I think it'd be noted how ****ing godlike he is, but even watching average sets of him playing you can see how good he is at conditioning, neutral, and working around Ganon's options.

 

[adom4]

What character is Gungnir playing?

Ganondorf.
There's a video of the set somewhere on youtube but i'm too lazy to find it lol.

 

[verbatim]

Gunginir's like Yoshidora, they were super dominant on 3DS but are not as active now.

He's still probably a top 5 in the world Ganondorf though.

 

[adom4]

Gunginir's like Yoshidora, they were super dominant on 3DS but are not as active now.

He's still probably a top 5 in the world Ganondorf though.

He did go to an umebura about a month ago and destroyed his pool, but he overslept the next day and got DQ'd ;_;.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Kodystri, PKBlueberry, and Jebb put together a lucas matchup chart. These are the top lucas mains in NA(wonder why mekos wasnt consulted)

Not gonna lie, I think the Sheik MU is worse than that. I think it's 65:35 Sheik's favor.

I find Mario being even interesting as well. Any input on that MU would be very much appreciated.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I actually don't believe Link loses to Lucas, but it's the other way around. Simply put, he can wall Lucas out like every other sword fighter can, he has projectiles that can't be absorbed by Lucas's PSI Magnet directly (only indirectly with Bombs) and while Lucas has mobility and combo power, Link has raw power and range at his disposal. There's really nothing Lucas can do to Link other than try punishing Link's cooldown on various attacks or try grabbing. You're just not going to get far against Link as Lucas. Lucas has a very poor disadvantage state against Link and Link has a good disadvantage state against Lucas, both vertically and horizontally. CQC definitely goes to Lucas, but Link can just camp Lucas if he wants to.

I completely believe Lucas slightly beats Link. Tethergrab of combos & death rival the sword's range and as dashgrab are a great whiff-punish to Link's almost anything. Lucas is just floaty enough to escape Link's best dthrow combos/strings, and his aerial weaving + good AD really puts a kink in Link's attempts to landtrap. His zoning is fast enough to keep up with Link, with more mobility during that zoning. Even if he can't do all the crazy angles that Link can, when two zoners go at it they're usually so far away only horizontal shooting threatens much. Air-to-air, Link seems to have a slight range advantage but a slight startup disadvantage. Now add CQC.

Thank god for bombs and the long hookshot or else the MU would really suck.

That Ganon placement though.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Wow. I totally forgot about his lock from Disable. I mean, if there's a lock that works eternally, then an issue can arise in the meta.

woah woah woah, disable is really an infinite. On everyone but fat characters its a 50/50 (if they know how to SDI it properly). Every time he uses it you have to repeat that 50/50 which means getting locked all the way from 25 to 90 is damn near impossible. I'd rather look at Mewtwo as a whole and say hes broken, not just one situational semi-infinite.

 

[Game7a1]

I'd have Ganon at least a +1 (for Lucas), Lucas playing keep away is a pain and he destroys ganon offstage. Lucas on T&C or DH is stupid for Ganon.
My point was more about why is Ganon a harder MU than characters like MK, Robin, Link and Yoshi, etc? Out of my admittedly limited experience with these characters, that are rated an easier MU than Ganon, I'd rather play Link, G&W or even Zelda than Ganon vs him.

What does Lucas have that is so oppressive to them but not Ganon?

Well, for G&W, it's a matter of approach options he has against a defensive Lucas, which is limited. Unlike against Ness, Lucas can zone and wall out G&W very well from my experience (even if G&W has Bucket). And gimping or edgeguarding Lucas is harder as well (though that's a given since he has a tether recovery and his Up-B isn't as easy to stop). I agree with the chart in that it's a slight disadvantage for G&W.
Personally speaking, I prefer playing Puff against him. Makes the walling less effective since she can move around easier. I would think the range and stronger KO power Ganon has makes it more manageable, despite the lesser mobility.

 

[verbatim]

He did go to an umebura about a month ago and destroyed his pool, but he overslept the next day and got DQ'd ;_;.

oh, thanks for bringing that up. I kind of assumed that he drowned in day 2.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucas def beats Ryu. Ryu has nothing that should make this match even. I will fight Sheik and Diddy over Lucas any ****ing day.

 

[Solfiner]

I play both Shulk and Lucas and I agree with Shulk having a slight edge in the MU.

 

[NegaNixx]

Everyday, due to Emblem Lord's posts my opinion of Ryu drops. And then I actually look at Ryu results and play and the world warrior looks pretty docile.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I also agree that the Lucas/Charizard matchup is even or in Zard's favor.

Luco and I had some matches a while ago and Lucas was a lot easier to deal with than Ness.

 

[Y2Kay]

After my laggy friendlies with Luco , I completely changed how I approached the match up as Greninja.

"I'm just gonna camp him instead of approaching"

And strangely it worked really well! Shurikens outranges all of Lucas' zoning moves, so I only approach when I want to kill him. Unlike Sheik, he doesn't have the speed to really close the gap because of this.

I had a sneaking suspicion that it was pretty good match up for us, but I had no clue it was commonly accepted as one of his worst match ups.

 

[Deleted member]

I play both Shulk and Lucas and I agree with Shulk having a slight edge in the MU.

has the advantage over Ness as well, but that's for the most part commonly accepted. Lucas does better in the matchup because of how much Shulk dislikes grapplers/characters with good grab games in general, but it isn't a really massive hindrance that shifts out out of Shulk's favor. If Shulk spaces well and plays at FH height while refusing to commit or approach, Lucas has a hard time.

 

[FullMoon]

I don't think Greninja beats Lucas quite that badly but it's been ages since I've played that MU from either side so I guess I don't really understand it quite that well.

I do think Greninja wins but I feel like he would be in the small advantage camp which IIRC was where Taiheita placed him.

 

[Luco]

Ulevo I don't know where else this MU has happened at a high level so feel free to correct me here but I versed Ghost's Meta Knight at OHN as Lucas and Meta Knight sucks at getting in, Lucas excels at his boxing game and whilst being floaty I don't think ladder is true on him. I'd give you more but the vids have temporarily disappeared so I'll have to look around to find them.

I also versed Waveguider recently and found Lucas was a bad, bad idea vs Greninja. The long and short of it is, Lucas has to approach, and Lucas sucks vs characters who can play more defensive than him.

I don't know if Sheik's a roadblock MU for Lucas just yet. It's possible.

 

[L9999]

Which each passing week I'm seeing a trend of MU analysis that amount to camp2win. ? Get a lead and camp2win (works in reverse with Kirby).? Needle camp2win. Every top tier (except ) can camp2win, with being the most notable one, and almost every high/mid tier can camp2win. (timeouts)(This last too are explicit examples)). Want to beat (etc)? Camp2win. Has anyone paid attention to this? And about Ryu, the reason people don't camp him is because 1) no ones bothers to learn the MU 2) because the optimal way is not "hype" and they rather die to rage Shoryuken in interactions that should never happen. It's incredible he is in the upper part of the results list because sometimes I forget he exists.