Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Pancracio17]

roy also has some surprisingly bad aerial and ground acceleration, so I disagree with him being there.

 

[Illusion.]

Guess Sakurai is into competitive Pokemon. He made sure to give Greninja the Protean ability

Jokes aside, while I do agree that Greninja does quite well when it comes to adapting to his opponent, I'm not sure if he fulfills the "aggressive" archetype all too well. His frame data isn't quite "suffocating" enough in nuetral.

He seems better built for a multitude of defensive playstyles such as baiting and punishing, zoning, and camping.

is by no means a rush-down character because, as you said, he doesn't have the frame data for it.

He generally wants to play the bait-and-punish game while maintaining proper spacing; he should only go in when he finds an opening, then he finds success in pushing his advantage state (unless it's against characters like and who ignore the concept of a disasvantaged state).

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Roy relies a lot on baiting his opponent to come in and that gets predictable. A good rule of thumb being Never roll in on Roy for fear of his f smash. Also Roy has trouble against opponents who opt for stage control and keep him out. He needs his space to abuse his offensive pressure. Not a bad character, it's just that his gameplan gets ruined by characters that can deny him his space. I think he could possibly be top of low tier of new tech were found but at the moment that place is held by like pac man or link. They have more options in neutral and aren't combo'ed as hard in disadvantage so he feel right being where he is for now.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Here, have something to discuss:

 

[Fatmanonice]

This is it!

This will be a really big deal if this catches on. are tough match ups and this definitely levels the playing field. God, why couldn't have been one of them though? It works on the wrong blond, Sakurai!

 

[Deleted member]

is like one of the weirdest low tiers to me.

I want to believe in him (like, really really do). He has some really good things about him still:

• No words need to be said on how good jab and nair are. They're some of the most integral parts of Roy's gameplan for a reason. DED is nearly as good as DB, dtilt works as a good high-damage poke and pivot ftilt is a great spacer/kill move.
• Say what you want about his grab game, but his low-percent game does give him a worthwhile niche over the likes of .
• His advantage state is overall quite good.

The main problem with Roy as it has been stated before is his disadvantage. His status as being a fastfaller hurts a lot more than it helps. Hopefully after Izaw's video people are driving away from the misconception that Roy has to get in close to ever get stuff done, but his air movement is still a problem overall due to his poor air acceleration and mediocre range.

Roy's one of the characters I wanna see more of in the meta. Ryo and Spark's CP sets at SSC and Shine respectively were good showcases of his toolkit and what he could do against some of the more relevant characters in the meta. If people like Sethlon and Katakiri traveled out of state more often then we'd probably be seeing more results for Roy.

 

[meticulousboy]

What if Villager gets banned because of that lock setup? MU spreads would have to be rearranged if one character is omitted, possibly tier lists, too. But I am just wondering aloud.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Depending on how easy to pull it off in relation to how useful it is, this might even mean we could get a new patch, but that's just daydreaming on my part.

 

[Fatmanonice]

What if Villager gets banned because of that lock setup? MU spreads would have to be rearranged if one character is omitted, possibly tier lists, too. But I am just wondering aloud.

One word: counterpicking. It doesn't work on the whole cast and I'm sure it gets borked on stages with wonky surfaces like Lylat.

Add in: Some of the characters on the list really have no excuse to go up against Villager in the first place. Ganondorf vs Villager is comically bad, DK is a massive headache, Little Mac/Roy can go south absurdly fast if he gets you off stage, etc. The Ryu vs Villager match up just got a lot more cringe worthy so I feel like it's the only top tier one where you'd definitely want a counterpick.

 

[FamilyTeam]

If you're Marcina, preferably you never want to go up against Villager's (or anyone's) face for this to work. It's already a pain to deal with his projectiles so you want to stay away and space your sword to begin with. As long as you keep your spacing and you always react and tech the Fair this shouldn't realistically happen much against them.

 

[|RK|]

As someone else brought to my attention - the setup is both techable and requires a specific percent range. The jab lock itself is another matter.

 

[Radical Larry]

So has anyone ever heard of banning a technique before? Because everyone's jumping to the conclusion that banning Villager is a totally better idea than that. Look, we'll see how effective and efficient it is, and if a patch doesn't come out, then we have all reasons to ban the infinite.

 

[Megamang]

Speaking of kirby with pocket, it does a whole lot more than stop the tree.

Most of villy's kit is projectiles. And agaisnt kirby, he just plays keepaway with all those moves. With pocket, he can effectively return fire with slightly stronger versions.



Anyways... dont you have to miss a tech on the fair to get combod by villager?


Also, hitting the perfect pivot that frequently... well, it gives you TONS of free damage with shiek and people dont do it still, so dont worry about super villagers hitting this that frequently. Plus he hates Cloud, so he isnt that common.

And it wouldnt be a megamang post if i didnt add how MM does... its a really terrible MU for villager, metal blade and crash bomber damages through lloyd, pellets outzone everything else. He pretty much has to make it up with edgeguarding. Make sure you upB after each fair/bair or youll get bowling ball'd.

Who has severe trouble with villager? Heavies? Id bet disjointed turnips and zoning is a headache for anyone that struggles to land.


EDIT: until someone not named ranai wins a major with villager... dont talk about banning. At all. Please.

 

[Y2Kay]

As an avid Mewtwo and Greninja main, I can assure you that Greninja is definitely better in the mobility department. Mewtwo's poor aerial acceleration, wonk jumps, slower jump squat, worse traction, worse short hop, and lower run speed all hampers his raw air speed and run speed too much to outpace Greninja.

In terms of a match, Mewtwo will keep up just fine for the most part though, since his ground movement isn't too much worse.

Greninja is interesting. He's a "pressure" character if that makes any sense. Allow me to explain.

When you utilize his great mobility, strong projectile game, great disjoint, and good edge-guarding, you'll be using him as an offensive - oriented zoner. He can space out opponents with Forward Air and shurikens well. He may not be as good at zoning as perhaps Villager or Robin, what he has over them is great burst movement. You'll never have to worry about Robin pelting you with projectiles then zipping from one end of the stage to in your face. Combine that with his serious damage output and strong edge-guarding, you have a character that can threaten a large portion of the stage.

Essentially what Greninja wants to do in a match is control space with his zoning tools. He wants to approach you and get in serious damage, but he wants to approach you on his terms, as several of his high reward attacks carry some notable risks.

As for the future of the meta, I really want to see Greninja's learn to use their movement both aggressively and defensively. Greninja has the stats to weave his way around and away from attacks instead of shielding, which I find incredibly important since shielding puts you in a bad position and kills our momentum. I remember once where Venia and Coffee where analyzing their Greninja dittos, and the counted the amount of times they both shielded so Venia could make a point. Coffee shielded approximately 30 times in their match. Venia only shielded 3 times. It's little things like this that separate good Greninja players from great ones.

I also would like to see Greninja players to flesh out their mix up game. Greninja's said mobility can have his mix ups catch more people off guard. For example,
I've seen a lot of japanese greninja use down tilt shadow sneak, down throw shadow sneak mix ups, and have even seen them counter ledge trump attacks with shadow sneak mixups. Lab it out genin!

Lastly, I'd like to for more Greninja mains to undestand their grounded game more. Too many greninja mains are dependent on Nair and Forward Air to generate an offense. When they have to face characters that command the space above them like Diddy Kong, they throw their arms up in frustration and say that Greninja loses the match up. Greninja's ground game is often overlooked, but it's still incredibly potent. Pivot Forward Tilt, shurikens, c bounced shurikens, and dash grab are all good options, and can be used to combat characters that can stuff Neutral Air.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So has anyone ever heard of banning a technique before?

Yep. Metaknight's Infinite Dimensional Cape in Brawl. Literally gave Metaknight the ability to go completely invisible and invulnerable for an entire match if your fingers were fast enough. Hit your opponent and then stall out the rest of the match. It was hilariously broken.

 

[Game7a1]

As someone else brought to my attention - the setup is both techable and requires a specific percent range. The jab lock itself is another matter.

Isn't it possible to avoid the tech situation with a footstool to start with instead of a F-air/B-air (and as mentioned in the video, knocking the character off a platform works too)? It's not the easiest thing to do, and the percent ranges starting with footstool would be "wider" as Villager won't inflict damage from F-air/B-air.

 

[Y2Kay]

Just watched DarkAura vs SGK.

I liked his movement. Instead of obsessively shielding spin dash, he danced around them with Greninja's better aerial mobility and great jump height.

Also, yes: Down taunt to up air is a combo and kills at a reasonable percent for a taunt kill setup (<200%)

 

[Radical Larry]

Yep. Metaknight's Infinite Dimensional Cape in Brawl. Literally gave Metaknight the ability to go completely invisible and invulnerable for an entire match if your fingers were fast enough. Hit your opponent and then stall out the rest of the match. It was hilariously broken.

I'm just sitting here, wondering why someone would dare suggest banning the character for a technique they have.

Again, if Villager's new infinite is proven to be very efficient, then we could outright ban it. I would be in support of banning the technique if it's not patched out due to how easy it seems to be used, as well as it being able to outright make Match-Ups go into territories we've never seen before.

Of course, there's so much more we may need to know before coming up with a complete conclusion.

 

[Krysco]

I question the idea of banning it when 'don't go over 300%' worked well enough for ICies in Melee and Brawl with their grab shenanigans and all that required was landing a grab, no aerial footstool, teching situation or perfect pivoting required. If it does truly pose as a problem then I'd imagine Nintendo would just patch it as they've done before with the ZSS infinite on Robin, the Pika custom infinite and the Peach infinite. I doubt this one thing will lead to a 20AC situation.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I, for one, would welcome our new scarecrow child overlords but its scope isn't bannable. It's like the grab release/chain grab match ups in Brawl, git gud or counterpick. A smart Brawl player wouldn't pick DK against Dedede, Squirtle against ZSS, or Ness against Marth so a smart SSB4 won't pick Ganondorf against Villager if this actually catches on.

 

[FullMoon]

The Villager thing only works in a few MUs, only at a very early percentages and is also techable. There's no reason to ban something like that, if you get caught in it, that's your fault.

 

[ARGHETH]

So why doesn't this work on Robin if it works on every other FE character?
EDIT: Oh yeah, here's some more info from the description:

Spoiler

Peach - N-air stops locking after 16%
F-air : 3% - 9%
B-air : 0% - 7%

Donkey Kong: N-air stops locking after 20%
F-air : 5% - 13%
B-air : 1% - 11%

Little Mac: N-air stops locking after 14%
F-air : 3% - 7%
B-air : 0% - 5%

Sheik: N-air stops locking after 15%
F-air : 3% - 8%
B-air : 0% - 6%

Ganondorf: N-air stops locking after 19%
F-air : 5% - 12%
B-air : 1% - 10%

Pit: N-air stops locking after 17%
F-air : 4% - 10%
B-air : 0% - 8%

Palutena: N-air stops locking after 16%
F-air : 3% - 9%
B-air : 0% - 7%

Marth: N-air stops locking after 17%
F-air : 3% - 10%
B-air : 0% - 8%

Ike: N-air stops locking after 19%
F-air : 4% - 12%
B-air : 0% - 10%

Dark Pit: N-air stops locking after 16%
F-air : 4% - 9%
B-air : 0% -7%

Lucina: N-air stops locking after 17%
F-air : 3% - 10%
B-air : 0% - 8%

Mewtwo: N-air stops locking after 14%
F-air : 2% - 7%
B-air : 0% - 5%

Roy: N-air stops locking after 17%
F-air : 4% - 10%
B-air : 0% - 8%

Ryu: N-air stops locking after 18%
F-air : 4% - 11%
B-air : 0% - 9%

Cloud: N-air stops locking after 18%
F-air : 3% - 11%
B-air : 1% - 9%

Corrin: N-air stops locking after 17%
F-air : 4% - 10%
B-air : 0% - 8%

Bayonetta: N-air stops locking after 16%
F-air : 3% - 9%
B-air : 0% - 7%
[\spoiler]

 

[Radical Larry]

Wait and see, I guess, but don't wait too long. We should see how this affects a major tournament (at least 150 to 200 entrants), or how this could affect high levels of play, and then see as to what we will do then. Villager's infinite might or might not be this scary new thing that could make him broken, but we'll wait.

 

[Fatmanonice]

But that's what we're saying, it doesn't work on everyone and it's kind of situational, even if the situation is practically once a stock if a Villager is good enough. Don't like Villager? Go Mario, Megaman, or Rosalina. There's definitely options to work around this.

 

[Radical Larry]

But that's what we're saying, it doesn't work on everyone and it's kind of situational, even if the situation is practically once a stock if a Villager is good enough. Don't like Villager? Go Mario, Megaman, or Rosalina. There's definitely options to work around this.

Well of course there are ways to work around this, but then again, who's to say the Villager just won't bait and punish the tech? Villager could bait a tech, punish the tech and may end up doing even more things now due to the possible threat of this infinite.

While everyone makes good arguments that this is situational, there's more complexity to this than just a simple infinite. I could go on about how this could affect certain players playstyles and whatnot, even.

 

[blackghost]

What if Villager gets banned because of that lock setup? MU spreads would have to be rearranged if one character is omitted, possibly tier lists, too. But I am just wondering aloud.

anyone that thinks villager is ban worthy because of this needs to stop playing games competitively. this isnt even a questionably to be banned. you missed your tech you eat this possibly and it doesnt work on everyone at all.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

On top of all that, Villager is only going to get 1-2 chances to pull this off since it only works a low percent and he has have perfect spacing. There are things in this game right now that are way worse than this, this isn't ban worthy

 

[Krysco]

One thing I'm wondering is what exactly is meant by 'doesn't work on everyone'. From what MySmashCorner said, the list he gave was merely the list of characters he was able to get the death combo on. I'm assuming that's including the entirety of fair/bair -> nair -> pp dsmash however many times -> fsmash. This means that player error could have been involved and he clearly shows that dsmash can jablock anyone by showing 2 Villagers infinitely locking a Kirby. So does pp dsmash work on every character or just the ones listed? Does something like say aerial footstool -> Lloid -> dsmash work?

Again, I don't feel that this is banworthy by any means but the lack of specific details may be a problem for some. If anything, Villager needs a large amount of stage to get enough damage off of this for a kill so if this turns out to be the second coming of MK, just camp the ledge until you're out of the combo starter percents.

 

[FullMoon]

Let's also consider the fact that rage probably makes the percent range for locking with N-Air even smaller due to the increase of knockback.

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if once Villager got past some percentage that the infinite would become impossible to perform, at least on some characters.

 

[ARISTOS]

Venia only shielded 3 times. It's little things like this that separate good Greninja players from great ones.

I think shielding less is going to be more important for almost every character moving forward.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Ground movement overall should become more important.
Jumping out of shield and shielding have both become more and more committal as time goes on. Many characters have options that punish you insanely hard for choosing the former instead of sitting in shield(Diddy, Cloud, Diddy, Bayo......Diddy...) while throw combos are simultaneously becoming stronger as our punishes become more optimized.

 

[Ninety]

So why doesn't this work on Robin if it works on every other FE character?

Sakurai got tired of ******* on us for once?

 

[L9999]

People are exaggerating the Killager footstool combo. It only works from 0-20% and the setup is predictable, it is ridiculous. Until I see the flock of Killagers doing 0-to-deaths or Ranai doing a 54 1st place tournament streak, I don't think we should care at all. If you want something broken play Brawl with its wonderful masterpieces of game design like .

 

[verbatim]

So has anyone ever heard of banning a technique before? Because everyone's jumping to the conclusion that banning Villager is a totally better idea than that. Look, we'll see how effective and efficient it is, and if a patch doesn't come out, then we have all reasons to ban the infinite.

• stalling with wobbling instead of getting a kill (usually if you go above 300% you get penalized)
• Some brawl AT's
• Mii's

On a more recent note Bowser Junior did actually have a banned technique that involved intentionally activating a pretty bizarre bug.

It's been patched for a long time, but IIRC EVO 2015 had a clause that banned its use back then.

 

[L9999]

• stalling with wobbling instead of getting a kill (usually if you go above 300% you get penalized)
• Some brawl AT's
• Mii's

On a more recent note Bowser Junior did actually have a banned technique that involved intentionally activating a pretty bizarre bug.

It's been patched for a long time, but IIRC EVO 2015 had a clause that banned its use back then.

But Miis are characters. But about banning techniques, IIRC Komorikiri was banned from playing small Brawler long time ago.

 

[DJBor]

Killager combo only works on a select few characters... as if Villager wasn't matchup-dependent already. Happy to see Ranai back in the lab doing things that aren't just fair > fair > fair > fair. Anyway, this new combo is no worse than the Mewtwo combo, which works at all percents on all but 3 characters, unlike this one. And to top it all off, you need perfect pivots or it doesn't work. Multiple, in a row. And you need Smash C-Stick. There's a lot about this that is making it not as big of a deal as Mewtwo's. Until it becomes dominant in tournament (if ever), let it be.

 

[GAROU_]

How are you peeps talking about mobility without mentioning Fox?

I'd like to see players abuse his insane initial dash Even moar.

 

[Megamang]

And m2's marginally faster initial walk! Gives dtilt slightly more effective range.


Even with shielding losing power in the meta, i think powershield attempts are a great usage of the shield. Greninja doesnt have great OoS, but a powershield is a good way to get that close up dtilt you might need around 90% for a kill.

Megaman still loves his shield. If you are holding a metal blade, your shield is scary. OoS throws can confirm to bair, and close powershields can start the footstool combos.

Cloud can punish me jumping out of shield hard if i time something poorly. But the idea is to shield when he leaves the ground, and drop shield or jump or OoS throw when he lands to do another option. Worse case he dash attacks me as i leave shield...

Unless we are talking about LCS, in which case yea that hurts. But i think id rather be gambling with shield drop times than him simply abusing his buffs, my ledge options and my landings.

Something i dont see as often as id think is bair to LCS. Bair leaves you guaranteed to get poked by LCS. But i guess this is due to the less shielding. Idk.

My shielding is becoming more and more MU based. Cloud/Yoshi/TL/Fox it is a huge part of my neutral and even advantage (shield landings into blade confirms really leaves few options, its p cool)...Mario/Wario/ kinda luigi? I barely bother with shield unless im sure im gonna die otherwise. Wario is easier to just wall out, Mario is doing something VERY wrong if he gets shieldgrabbed, and his shield pressure catches the blade often :/

 

[|RK|]

One thing I'm wondering is what exactly is meant by 'doesn't work on everyone'. From what MySmashCorner said, the list he gave was merely the list of characters he was able to get the death combo on. I'm assuming that's including the entirety of fair/bair -> nair -> pp dsmash however many times -> fsmash. This means that player error could have been involved and he clearly shows that dsmash can jablock anyone by showing 2 Villagers infinitely locking a Kirby. So does pp dsmash work on every character or just the ones listed? Does something like say aerial footstool -> Lloid -> dsmash work?

Again, I don't feel that this is banworthy by any means but the lack of specific details may be a problem for some. If anything, Villager needs a large amount of stage to get enough damage off of this for a kill so if this turns out to be the second coming of MK, just camp the ledge until you're out of the combo starter percents.

Based on the fact they needed two Villagers for Kirby, I think both hits of the shovel have to connect. Some chars might be too small for that, or something.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Sheik as a character is more threatening to most characters than this incredibly situational and easy to avoid Villager infinite.

If you're getting hit by this infinite now after it's been exposed to the public, then you deserve to eat all the damage, especially if you knew full well that it works on your character.