Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Phan7om]

Phan7om but so many overlap. Charge shot/ shadow ball. Some are just useless (pk flash)... and some are, imho, obvious (luigi fireballs)

Like I said, many people do believe its that simple, but its not. Charge Shot and Shadow Ball might function/look similar and have a bit of overlap, but they are two very different moves in two very different matchups. Im sure any Mewtwo or Samus here will agree.

Also, abilities being completely useless is debatable but its just semantics at this point. All I'll say on that is more people need to consider the move as a whole in multiple situations instead of the simple/scrub situations most people associate them with.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Phan7om but so many overlap. Charge shot/ shadow ball. Some are just useless (pk flash)... and some are, imho, obvious (luigi fireballs)

But maybe I'm biased; copy is why kirby stands out to me so when i pull him out i very much focus on the abilities.

Still, every kirby at least needs to learn to shoot shakanetsu hadouken, it is so so so good for kirb's nuetral. Slow projectiles he can come in behind are great in general, since his frame data is actually amazing and he can pressure your shield safely and effectively.

And fast projectiles allow him to zone, not needing to approach. And KO projectile s like charge shot complement his low% combos.

I think it's no coincidence that the entire cast has their projectiles on neutral b.

Kirby s version of Palutenas projectile is better than hers is. Kirby is too short for her to dash in and underneath the shots.

Yeah, almost any kind of projectile seems to complete Kirby's gameplan.

(Almost. Damn you, Fox.)

 

[meticulousboy]

Well, PK Flash serves an edgeguarding purpose. It can probably two frame. But uncharged can cover ledge jump, I think.

 

[Radical Larry]

Well, PK Flash serves an edgeguarding purpose. It can probably two frame. But uncharged can cover ledge jump, I think.

Okay, why ledge jump when you can let go of the ledge, jump and perform an aerial instead?

 

[TDK]

Or why use PK Flash instead of, I don't know, PK Thunder or something like that? PK Flash is very powerful when it is full, but it's nowhere near as useful as you'd think. (And don't get me started on Rising PK Flash.)

When you're Kirby you don't have PK thunder?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

PK Flash should only be used for a mix up to ledge guard straightforward recoveries (like DK coming from below) I don't actually recommend anyone use that move to cover any ledge option since the lag is so bad even un charged you'll get punished if you miss.

 

[Megamang]

Back to Lucas V Ness, PK thunder alone is a big plus to Ness's advantage game. A ness smart with that move will get all kinds of free damage throughout the set; Lucas doesn't have that as much (though pk fire does harass landings well)


Phan7om You are correct. Even my examples were wrong, considering shadow ball comes with all kinds of reflector nonsense while charge shot cant be charged in the air.

But what confuses me was kirbys who don't utilize the copy ability at all. Ive seen multiple kirbies on stream opt for spitting out the opponent over the ledge (who then recovers and resets to neutral since you arent released at a significant disadvantage) instead of even taking it.

Im not saying its feasable to know exactly everything about the optizations to use each B move... but projectiles have overlapping roles in fighting games in general, namely just controlling space and pressuring in neutral.

I just play keep kirby out, since he actually hits really hard when he gets in. At first glance it may seem a stolen metal blade is rather useless since pellets stop it cold, easily. But, he gets some cool pressure stuff with it. If i opt to go over, he gets to chuck it upwards and at least get a chance to tack on some damage. He can zdrop it on shield to increase his shield damage pretty solidly.


So even if he doesn't know zdrop combos or block string stuff... just hucking it at someone is better than the rest of kirby's ranged game, which is nothing.

Was that worded better?

Or were the kirbys i was watching anomalies, and im suggesting something that already happens?

 

[Radical Larry]

When you're Kirby you don't have PK thunder?

I thought we were talking about Ness. I thought we got off that Kirby stuff. My bad.

But still, what I said firstly was true, because there's just a better option for characters to take on PK Flash (in Singles and Doubles).

 

[Mega-Spider]

Back to Lucas V Ness, PK thunder alone is a big plus to Ness's advantage game. A ness smart with that move will get all kinds of free damage throughout the set; Lucas doesn't have that as much (though pk fire does harass landings well)


Phan7om You are correct. Even my examples were wrong, considering shadow ball comes with all kinds of reflector nonsense while charge shot cant be charged in the air.

But what confuses me was kirbys who don't utilize the copy ability at all. Ive seen multiple kirbies on stream opt for spitting out the opponent over the ledge (who then recovers and resets to neutral since you arent released at a significant disadvantage) instead of even taking it.

Im not saying its feasable to know exactly everything about the optizations to use each B move... but projectiles have overlapping roles in fighting games in general, namely just controlling space and pressuring in neutral.

I just play keep kirby out, since he actually hits really hard when he gets in. At first glance it may seem a stolen metal blade is rather useless since pellets stop it cold, easily. But, he gets some cool pressure stuff with it. If i opt to go over, he gets to chuck it upwards and at least get a chance to tack on some damage. He can zdrop it on shield to increase his shield damage pretty solidly.


So even if he doesn't know zdrop combos or block string stuff... just hucking it at someone is better than the rest of kirby's ranged game, which is nothing.

Was that worded better?

Or were the kirbys i was watching anomalies, and im suggesting something that already happens?

I was looking at what one of the mods in the Mega Man Discord (great place, BTW) was saying how Metal Blade isn't that great to give Kirby. While I do see his point of Metal Blade going down to one pellet as well as Kirby losing more than gaining when he carries the Metal Blade, the fact that it gives Kirby an option to improve his neutral and even his combo ability if applied properly. The thing is though, Kirby, at least theoretically, should never get the chance to Inhale Megs. Sure, Kirby can crotch under a lot of his moves, but any Megs player who has good knowledge of the character know that it's better to have the enemy approach than to approach themselves. It doesn't help Kirby's case that his approach is terrible overall, and that a Megs who is great at walling anyone out is big trouble for Kirby. Him getting the Metal Blade is a reminder that Megs screwed up badly. This tweet shows would could (and I do mean could) happen if Kirby gets the Metal Blade:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Peppermint1201]

This is a meme that needs to die at this point. Compared to other top tiers, Shiek isn't as efficient at killing, but she still has an abundance of kill set ups at her disposal. She's not really all that bad at killing.

Characters that are actually bad at killing:
Pikachu, Mega Man if he can't land the footstool combo (His neutral and disadvantage make up for this. Advantage ain't too shabby either), Donkey Kong past his throw combo percents, Wario without waft or half waft, Pac Man, Duck Hunt to some extent, Jigglypuff

It's not untrue at all. Sheik does in fact have trouble killing, and just because there are characters worse at killing than her doesn't mean it's not a weakness, not to mention that several of your choices for that list are dubious at best.

She has no real answer to shield at kill percent, full stop. The best thing she can do is throw you offstage and try for an edgeguard, which is good, don't get me wrong, but not a "setup" at all. She admittedly has a large list of kill setups on paper, but in practice she's just not landing them all that easily. Look at Mr. R vs Anti at CEO, for example. Mario was never killed before 110 and lived beyond 160 twice in three games. On one of those occasions, he hit 221%. Watch any high-level post-patch Sheik and you'll witness it in action. But yeah, it's "just a meme."

 

[ぱみゅ]

Thunderstruck IV (Monterrey, Mexico) - 164 entrants (according smash.gg [discounting the byes])
1. SF HY | M(K)Leo
2. CO CS | Wonf
3. Klein
4. GSR MH | ROX
5. SG | Meme
5. CO | Addy
7. CO | Daimy
7. Cloudy
9. KV | Kaze
9. CO | Waymas
9. Necro
9. Fizz
13. CO | David
13. CO | Chota
13. Flama
13. Terry
I'm missing sponsors.
Those Finals games might seriously hurt the statistics if the characters are taken in account.

 

[T4ylor]

Popped in to see Thunderstruck's top 8. Leo seemed so far and away much better than everyone else that it was kind of sad. He's doing some great things, though. Really love his Marth play.

 

[Ethan7]

Thunderstruck IV (Monterrey, Mexico) - 164 entrants (according smash.gg [discounting the byes])
1. SF HY | M(K)Leo
2. CO CS | Wonf
3. Klein
4. GSR MH | ROX
5. SG | Meme
5. CO | Addy
7. CO | Daimy
7. Cloudy
9. KV | Kaze
9. CO | Waymas
9. Necro
9. Fizz
13. CO | David
13. CO | Chota
13. Flama
13. Terry
I'm missing sponsors.
Those Finals games might seriously hurt the statistics if the characters are taken in account.

Are secondaries included in this if it didn't result in the player winning the set? Also, look at all those .

 

[Phan7om]

Im not saying its feasable to know exactly everything about the optizations to use each B move... but projectiles have overlapping roles in fighting games in general, namely just controlling space and pressuring in neutral.

Yeah I understand what you meant now, the wording was a bit better this time but I'll admit it was bad interpretation on my part my b. And I touched upon the reason they dont them in my post on the previous page, they either cant use them effectively and/or dont think its worth taking. A 6% command grab that likely resets to neutral is apparently better than most copy abilities according to a lot of the top Kirbies LUL.

 

[Aaron1997]

Smash ULtime Le Troisieme QC (Canada) 86 entrants

1. DarkAura
2. SuperGirlKels
3. Holy
4. Darkwolf
5. Z
5. Venom
7. Fwed
7. Duston

Also

FAD X 2GG Abadango Qualifer #2 31 Entrants

1. Nicko
2. Charliedaking
3. Zan
4. Cyro

This has been a good day for the Monado Boy

 

[Jams.]

Smash ULtime Le Troisieme QC (Canada) 86 entrants

1. Holy
2. DarkAura
3. SuperGirlKels
4. Darkwolf
5. Z
5. Venom
7. Fwed
7. Duston

As much as I love ROB, top 3 for this event actually went like this:

1. DarkAura
2. SuperGirlKels
   
3. Holy

 

[Aaron1997]

Jams. Someone on the Discord told me that it was Holy,Aura, Kels. (The bracket wans't updated) I'll fix it

 

[Jaguar360]

Smash ULtime Le Troisieme QC (Canada) 86 entrants

1. Holy
2. DarkAura
3. SuperGirlKels
4. Darkwolf
5. Z
5. Venom
7. Fwed
7. Duston

Also

FAD X 2GG Abadango Qualifer #2 31 Entrants

1. Nicko
2. Charliedaking
3. Zan
4. Cyro

This has been a good day for the Monado Boy

Smash Ultimate placings are mixed up a bit. Darkaura won, SGK got 2nd, Holy got 3rd and Dunston used Ness alongside Pikachu.

EDIT: ninja'd by a longshot, rip

 

[Ethan7]

This is it!

 

[Solfiner]

Nicko going solo Shulk and winning over Fox is impressive, though definitely not an undoable match-up. Definitely an uphill one though.

 

[Nu~]

This is it!

And so the meta of footstool/jab lock infinities + early kill confirms begins...?

 

[Deleted member]

Smash ULtime Le Troisieme QC (Canada) 86 entrants

1. DarkAura
2. SuperGirlKels
3. Holy
4. Darkwolf
5. Z
5. Venom
7. Fwed
7. Duston

Also

FAD X 2GG Abadango Qualifer #2 31 Entrants

1. Nicko
2. Charliedaking
3. Zan
4. Cyro

This has been a good day for the Monado Boy

Nicko's set against Charlie was nail-biting as ****, it was so exciting to see Nicko finally beat him. CDK isn't on the level of Foxes like Sodrek or Larry Lurr but he's still a great player, he's grown a lot and I can't wait to see him more throughout the life of the game.

Nicko was already planning to go to Abadango Saga, but congratulations to him getting in for free. Let's see if he'll do good at the event, he had a close set with Abadango back at EVO earlier this year as well.

 

[Aaron1997]

Also this Happened last night

Hirosuma 5 80 entrants

1. Shuton
2. HIKARU
3.9B
4. OCEAN
5. Shogun
5. Ciel (he plays 20 characters)
7. Lucia
7. Parmesan
9. Lagnel
9. Ron
9. Suigin
9. Aigosuki
13. Paru
13. Hauberk
13. myg
13. Mikarun

Good week for to

 

[Y2Kay]

Smash ULtime Le Troisieme QC (Canada) 86 entrants

1. DarkAura
2. SuperGirlKels
3. Holy
4. Darkwolf
5. Z
5. Venom
7. Fwed
7. Duston

Also

FAD X 2GG Abadango Qualifer #2 31 Entrants

1. Nicko
2. Charliedaking
3. Zan
4. Cyro

This has been a good day for the Monado Boy

High level Gren beating a notable sonic?

This made me have an actually spit take . . .

 

[Megamang]

He timed her out twice lol.


He made it really hard for sonic to land a kill move. That said, even a slightly reliable timing to hit the fsmash on hydro pump would have done wonders for SGK; its not like greninja can just go over sonic.

He got tons of mileage off of pivot grab as well. Countering spindash happened, but it never paid off lol.

EDIT: literally countering spindash with substitute. Not countering it all; shurikans/DA/pivot grab worked well.

Speaking of, you can set up a 50/50ish guessing situation if you guide your substitute kick up and follow DI. Uair kills well near the top and hydro pump can kill you for jumping away. But like Lucario's counter, most safe pokes are quick enough to shield the counter and retaliate.

 

[Drifting]

Yeah I understand what you meant now, the wording was a bit better this time but I'll admit it was bad interpretation on my part my b. And I touched upon the reason they dont them in my post on the previous page, they either cant use them effectively and/or dont think its worth taking. A 6% command grab that likely resets to neutral is apparently better than most copy abilities according to a lot of the top Kirbies LUL.

I see where you're coming from, but surely you understand that the villager hat is amazing in the matchup right? You can wall out lloids, and get a OHKO if they drop the tree.

 

[Yonder]

He timed her out twice lol.


He made it really hard for sonic to land a kill move. That said, even a slightly reliable timing to hit the fsmash on hydro pump would have done wonders for SGK; its not like greninja can just go over sonic.

He got tons of mileage off of pivot grab as well. Countering spindash happened, but it never paid off lol.

Doesn't Greninja overall in terms of air speed and ground speed have the best mobility in the game?

I shudder to think if Greninja becomes a pure campout character in the future. Heck, he has a now good projectile to do it even more effectively and a better version of Fludd to create more of a gap between him and his opponent.

Either that or a footstool character, since footstools seem to be a big part of the meta atm.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Doesn't Greninja overall in terms of air speed and ground speed have the best mobility in the game?

I shudder to think if Greninja becomes a pure campout character in the future. Heck, he has a now good projectile to do it even more effectively and a better version of Fludd to create more of a gap between him and his opponent.

Either that or a footstool character, since footstools seem to be a big part of the meta atm.

His mobility is only barely outclassed by ZSS by just a few of whatever unit smash measures speed in

Greninja could definitely work as a camp out character and is already one of the big footstool characters in the meta. Greninja is actually a lot like Sheik, he's an extremely flexible character that can fill nearly every role in the game. Yes you could play him with just one specific style (constant aggression, runaway, footsies, etc) but its much more optimal to play them all depending on the current condition.

 

[Megamang]

Doesn't Greninja overall in terms of air speed and ground speed have the best mobility in the game?

I shudder to think if Greninja becomes a pure campout character in the future. Heck, he has a now good projectile to do it even more effectively and a better version of Fludd to create more of a gap between him and his opponent.

Either that or a footstool character, since footstools seem to be a big part of the meta atm.

Greninja also has a amazing dash grab, and a cool mixup game from it. Uthrow has a tree of punish options, as does dthrow.

His PP is huge, and he is low throughout. Backdashes against SH approaches gives you easy dashgrabs or DA.

His combo game is incredible and reliably started from good neutral moves like dash attack, utilt (disjointed and low profile) dtilt, ftilt kinda...


Unfortunately, his item throw is stupidly high, and just sucks sometimes like m2 where you miss diddy if he is on top of you so his vortex works well and his fair can go toe to toe with yours because its so ranged and fast.

Shiek is tough too, im not sure on the details. Used to be that super needles and giant fair just kinda embarassed greninja at his own game, but the patch made it less outrageous as all zoners or semi zoners felt so we'll see. Mr.r vs istudying is the highest level of this MU ive seen, but mr.r is the best in europe, by a significant margin.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The best overall mobility in the game is technically Cloud with Limit, actually! It's ridiculous. If you discount limit though Greninja is probably better in that sense.

 

[Y2Kay]

If you don't count Limit Cloud, Greninja does in fact have the best mobility in the game. His is so dumb I don't even count it most of the time.

Greninja has a great run speed a great walk, a good air speed. a tall regular jump, a great perfect pivot, and a great short hop.

So imagine my pain when I see Gren's constantly shielding! ◥ಢ┴ಢ◤

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Nicko's set against Charlie was nail-biting as ****, it was so exciting to see Nicko finally beat him. CDK isn't on the level of Foxes like Sodrek or Larry Lurr but he's still a great player, he's grown a lot and I can't wait to see him more throughout the life of the game.

Nicko was already planning to go to Abadango Saga, but congratulations to him getting in for free. Let's see if he'll do good at the event, he had a close set with Abadango back at EVO earlier this year as well.

The thing is Charlie used to lose to Nicko often, but now Charlie has picked up his game and often goes even to Nicko in recent exchanges. Charlie has improved considerably this summer.

Smash ULtime Le Troisieme QC (Canada) 86 entrants

1. DarkAura
2. SuperGirlKels
3. Holy
4. Darkwolf
5. Z
5. Venom
7. Fwed
7. Duston

Also

FAD X 2GG Abadango Qualifer #2 31 Entrants

1. Nicko
2. Charliedaking
3. Zan
4. Cyro

This has been a good day for the Monado Boy

Dunston also used ness as much as pikachu in many top 32 matches

 

[bc1910]

His mobility is only barely outclassed by ZSS by just a few of whatever unit smash measures speed in

Greninja could definitely work as a camp out character and is already one of the big footstool characters in the meta. Greninja is actually a lot like Sheik, he's an extremely flexible character that can fill nearly every role in the game. Yes you could play him with just one specific style (constant aggression, runaway, footsies, etc) but its much more optimal to play them all depending on the current condition.

In terms of pure mobility stats, Greninja is second only to Limit Cloud. He jumps higher, falls faster and walks faster than ZSS. Only her horizontal air speed is notably better than his (her run speed difference is negligible; they are basically joint 5th). He also has a better initial dash with a faster dash to shield, and he reaches the peak of his jump more quickly which gives him a better SHFF.

When you start to weigh in special moves that cause mobility bursts, the water gets a bit muddier (no pun intended). Flip Jump, Bouncing Fish, Monkey Flip, Quick Attack and Spring Jump/Spin Dash all carry less commitment than Hydro Pump and appear on characters with good mobility anyway. Even Bayo's specials allow her to give Greninja a run for his money. And of course there's the whole Limit Cloud thing. So there are a few characters who I would say can match or outclass Greninja's raw mobility; it's just they all make some kind of commitment when doing so.

And yes, I completely agree that Greninja's strength is in his adaptability.

Greninja also has a amazing dash grab, and a cool mixup game from it. Uthrow has a tree of punish options, as does dthrow.

His PP is huge, and he is low throughout. Backdashes against SH approaches gives you easy dashgrabs or DA.

His combo game is incredible and reliably started from good neutral moves like dash attack, utilt (disjointed and low profile) dtilt, ftilt kinda...


Unfortunately, his item throw is stupidly high, and just sucks sometimes like m2 where you miss diddy if he is on top of you so his vortex works well and his fair can go toe to toe with yours because its so ranged and fast.

Shiek is tough too, im not sure on the details. Used to be that super needles and giant fair just kinda embarassed greninja at his own game, but the patch made it less outrageous as all zoners or semi zoners felt so we'll see. Mr.r vs istudying is the highest level of this MU ive seen, but mr.r is the best in europe, by a significant margin.

Sonic is still by far Greninja's worst MU, although I too have had success by timing Sonic out. Maybe that's the direction this MU needs to go in. I see most Greninja players attempt to go in, or just shield camp which doesn't work either. It sounds like DarkAura played this MU very well, although I too would be concerned about Sonic players learning the timing for Fsmash against Hydro Pump.

Sheik is bad, but significantly better than it was. He can keep up with her in neutral since the nerfs and he can kill her quite well. It's not as good for Greninja as certain Sheik players say though (looking at you, ZeRo) because Dtilt Usmash is never true unless you hit at point blank range, and if you get hit by weak Nair while playing Sheik you ****ed up bad and deserve to die for it. I think Diddy and Sheik are about as bad as each other; yes, the high item throw is incredibly frustrating.

Solidly losing to 3 top tier/top 5 characters is a major thorn in Greninja's side. I think he may also lose to Rosalina but I'd have to see it played by good players of equal skill (which we've never seen) because I might just suck against her. Cloud is probably a losing MU unless we get really good at gimping him. I don't believe Greninja loses to Fox any more at least, and he probably doesn't have any other losing MUs full stop.

 

[Radical Larry]

Y Yonder I believe it's Mewtwo, Zero Suit Samus, Roy, Greninja and then Cloud (Limit) in terms of top 5 mobility. I'm not counting Shulk because his Monado Arts wouldn't last as long as Cloud's Limit. I looked at both aerial and running grounded speeds together and ranked them all as such from what I can see together.

 

[Nu~]

In terms of pure mobility stats, Greninja is second only to Limit Cloud. He jumps higher, falls faster and walks faster than ZSS. Only her horizontal air speed is notably better than his (her run speed difference is negligible; they are basically joint 5th). He also has a better initial dash with a faster dash to shield, and he reaches the peak of his jump more quickly which gives him a better SHFF.

When you start to weigh in special moves that cause mobility bursts, the water gets a bit muddier (no pun intended). Flip Jump, Bouncing Fish, Monkey Flip, Quick Attack and Spring Jump/Spin Dash all carry less commitment than Hydro Pump and appear on characters with good mobility anyway. Even Bayo's specials allow her to give Greninja a run for his money. And of course there's the whole Limit Cloud thing. So there are a few characters who I would say can match or outclass Greninja's raw mobility; it's just they all make some kind of commitment when doing so.

And yes, I completely agree that Greninja's strength is in his adaptability.

Guess Sakurai is into competitive Pokemon. He made sure to give Greninja the Protean ability

Jokes aside, while I do agree that Greninja does quite well when it comes to adapting to his opponent, I'm not sure if he fulfills the "aggressive" archetype all too well. His frame data isn't quite "suffocating" enough in nuetral.

He seems better built for a multitude of defensive playstyles such as baiting and punishing, zoning, and camping.

 

[Pancracio17]

you cant leave shiek (and proably sonic) out of that top 5 mobility

 

[Phan7om]

I see where you're coming from, but surely you understand that the villager hat is amazing in the matchup right? You can wall out lloids, and get a OHKO if they drop the tree.

This is true, but this assumes the opponent is autopiloting hard and doesnt adapt to his opponent having a new option.

 

[chaos11011]

This is true, but this assumes the opponent is autopiloting hard and doesnt adapt to his opponent having a new option.

Either way though, wouldn't the fact that they would adapt to the MU provide an edge? Even if you dont pocket anything, it still makes Villager less prone to go for those options (or at least use them less freely)

 

[Radical Larry]

you cant leave shiek (and proably sonic) out of that top 5 mobility

After a little more research, here's what I've come to truly conclude. Limit Break Cloud has the absolute best mobility ranking, with a ranking of 5th in grounded speed and 1st in aerial speed, while normal Cloud wouldn't have as much speed, Limit Cloud definitely beats the rest in ranking. Second comes Mewtwo, third is Sonic, fourth is Zero Suit Samus and fifth is Roy.

Then it would actually be Greninja, then Captain Falcon, then Sheik. So Sheik cannot make it into top five whatsoever in raw mobility, but she's still in top 10. I don't know who numbers 9 and 10 could be, but I believe they could belong to Donkey Kong and Little Mac, respectively.

This is going purely with Running and Aerial speeds and doesn't take into account attacks and whatnot. From here we can at least build on with much more attributes, but I'm simply looking at raw maximum speeds on ground and in air.

 

[Mr. Johan]

You're only factoring in horizontal speed.

A character's jump height, double jump vertical acceleration, and their fall speed are super important as well. Sheik wouldn't have nearly the level of DPS she has right now if she had to rely on Zelda's floaty stature and double jump speed and height to keep aerial pressure and Fair strings going. Ryu and Bayonetta's Bairs would not be nearly as threatening if they didn't have the fastfall speed to facilitate the low landing lag they have. And so on.