Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[HoSmash4]

I've seen very few Kirby mains utilise Needles effectively. A lot of them use them unsafely. Part of the threat of needles is the option to not use them and go in with potent fairs and fast dash grabs. Things which Kirby still lacks, even with Sheiks hat. Essentially kirby with needles means Sheik had to operate at mid range where she is still super good.

ofc if I get a chance to play a Kirby who is actually good at using needles, I may change my mind

@das_koopa remember to add Mr R when he wins the PG tourney for free

 

[DblCrest]

無限射程だからね pic.twitter.com/DHdHhspR0o

— とかげろう (@tokagero0719) September 17, 2016

I wish to see more of this. Robin mains where you at?

 

[|RK|]

Ooh, we talking Kirby?

I'm one of the other Kirby mains that thinks that looking into copy abilities is truly the way to go. There are very few copies that don't outright improve his MUs. Thing is, since people don't find the risk worth it, they A) don't go for it and B) don't learn how to use it. Most people heavily underrate any ability that doesn't combo/kill confirm, but the ability to improve Kirby's neutral game is just as important. Example, Greninja is actually pretty difficult for Kirby, and that's mainly because it's so hard to approach through his shurikens. But copying his shurikens makes it much harder for him to do, and allows Kirby to play on a more equal playing ground. Sheik's needles are Sheik's needles. We can do everything Sheik can do with them (needle fidgeting, for example), but we can also technically "outrange" her because she extends her hurtbox further when she throws needles (though everything else is the same - RIP lower endlag). More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that needle camping is now not as effective on Kirby. So many copy abilities help to either mitigate Kirby's range issues or otherwise provide a new option that makes up for it.

Even the Mario Bros. fireballs are underrated in that they allow you to play a richer neutral game and force reactions you can then punish. Luma Shot lets you force Rosalina into the air so you can deal with her landings as opposed to her grounded tools or outright kills Luma, etc.

I think Kirby was (perhaps poorly) balanced around his copy ability. Using it legit improves the character, as in many cases it forces you to fight him. But, I digress.

/copy ability rant

 

[TDK]

TBH6 entrant list is out

I've probably missed a bunch but here's a big list of notables

Spoiler: Notable Entrants

U.S.A:

Northern Atlantic: (Tristate, New England, MD/VA)
ZeRo
Nairo
Dabuz
ANTi
Pink Fresh
Marss
Mr. E
Tweek
6WX
Seagull Joe
Craftis
Pugwest
NAKAT
DKWill
Mister Eric
San
Logic (?)
Raffi-X
WaDi
Remzi
James
Biddy
Puppeh
Shofu

Western US: (SoCal, NorCal, Vegas, PNW, etc.)
VoiD
Larry Lurr
Rich Brown
K9
JK
Zex
Z
Aarvark


Southeast: (GA, Florida, etc.)
Mew2King
ESAM
MVD ( Maybe and ?)
Day
Dyr
Static Manny
Saj
Wrath
True Blue
Nick Riddle
TheReflexWonder
Fatality
Rango
Myran
Jester
Wizzrobe
Hungrybox

South: (Texas, Louisiana, etc)
Samsora
Captain Zack
Cosmos
Brawlman1k
Megafox
Karna (?)

Midwest:
Zinoto
Ned
Rayquaza07
Ksev
DarkShad
JJROCKETS
MJG
Miloni
Tyroy
Big_mak
Smasher1001
Triple R
Sofa King
Krow
Regralht
Colinies
Viev


Canada:
Ally
SuperGirlKels
Blacktwins
Iceninja
Poke
Chrim Foish
Pokecheese

Japan:
Abadango
Kamemushi
Komorikiri
Nasubi
Ri-ma
Kie
Shogun
FILIP

Europe:
Sodrek

There's still one EU player to qualify, bets on it being Mr. R.

Edited the above to include characters, or at least the ones I know.

Spoiler: Key to the PG house qualifiers

1st: Wrath
2nd: Raffi-X
3rd: Scizor
4th: Zan

Wrath and Raffi are confirmed attending, but any word on Zan and Scizor?

 

[Ethan7]

Edited the above to include characters, or at least the ones I know.

Spoiler: Key to the PG house qualifiers

1st: Wrath
2nd: Raffi-X
3rd: Scizor
4th: Zan

Wrath and Raffi are confirmed attending, but any word on Zan and Scizor?

You should put by ANTi (along with a since he may use secondaries). I think Komorikiri uses more than . Blacktwins plays and , I don't know when he ever played .

VoiD has a and maybe others. Esam uses a and a I think a right? Kamemushi might use or . Tweek might use the old or . But I'm just throwing stuff out.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Ooh, we talking Kirby?

I'm one of the other Kirby mains that thinks that looking into copy abilities is truly the way to go. There are very few copies that don't outright improve his MUs. Thing is, since people don't find the risk worth it, they A) don't go for it and B) don't learn how to use it. Most people heavily underrate any ability that doesn't combo/kill confirm, but the ability to improve Kirby's neutral game is just as important. Example, Greninja is actually pretty difficult for Kirby, and that's mainly because it's so hard to approach through his shurikens. But copying his shurikens makes it much harder for him to do, and allows Kirby to play on a more equal playing ground. Sheik's needles are Sheik's needles. We can do everything Sheik can do with them (needle fidgeting, for example), but we can also technically "outrange" her because she extends her hurtbox further when she throws needles (though everything else is the same - RIP lower endlag). More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that needle camping is now not as effective on Kirby. So many copy abilities help to either mitigate Kirby's range issues or otherwise provide a new option that makes up for it.

Even the Mario Bros. fireballs are underrated in that they allow you to play a richer neutral game and force reactions you can then punish. Luma Shot lets you force Rosalina into the air so you can deal with her landings as opposed to her grounded tools or outright kills Luma, etc.

I think Kirby was (perhaps poorly) balanced around his copy ability. Using it legit improves the character, as in many cases it forces you to fight him. But, I digress.

/copy ability rant

I like the idea of having Kirby being designed around his Copy Abilities. I mean, a huge part of Kirby's games are using enemy powers to give you more options to play with, as well as vary the gameplay. In Smash 4, I do think the designers went a little overboard on making Kirby dependent on them, but this is where Kirby's design brings up a dilemma:

Do you either make Kirby's base moveset and design good enough to where Copy Abilities aren't required, or do you make his base moveset decent but become reliant on Copy Abilities to give him an edge in the battle?

It's a reason why Kirby's one of the most difficult and interesting characters to design. Personally I would love to see a game where his base moveset was good on its own, but having Copy Abilities really does make him shine. Maybe in the next Smash Bros, he could be high tier. That way, we can say that Kirby has literally been everywhere on the tier list, lol.

But yeah, getting Copy Abilities is the way to go.

 

[bc1910]

Ooh, we talking Kirby?

I'm one of the other Kirby mains that thinks that looking into copy abilities is truly the way to go. There are very few copies that don't outright improve his MUs. Thing is, since people don't find the risk worth it, they A) don't go for it and B) don't learn how to use it. Most people heavily underrate any ability that doesn't combo/kill confirm, but the ability to improve Kirby's neutral game is just as important. Example, Greninja is actually pretty difficult for Kirby, and that's mainly because it's so hard to approach through his shurikens. But copying his shurikens makes it much harder for him to do, and allows Kirby to play on a more equal playing ground. Sheik's needles are Sheik's needles. We can do everything Sheik can do with them (needle fidgeting, for example), but we can also technically "outrange" her because she extends her hurtbox further when she throws needles (though everything else is the same - RIP lower endlag). More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that needle camping is now not as effective on Kirby. So many copy abilities help to either mitigate Kirby's range issues or otherwise provide a new option that makes up for it.

Even the Mario Bros. fireballs are underrated in that they allow you to play a richer neutral game and force reactions you can then punish. Luma Shot lets you force Rosalina into the air so you can deal with her landings as opposed to her grounded tools or outright kills Luma, etc.

I think Kirby was (perhaps poorly) balanced around his copy ability. Using it legit improves the character, as in many cases it forces you to fight him. But, I digress.

/copy ability rant

Yeah, I personally think "Kirby with Shurikens" is one of Greninja's worst MUs. However as long as you don't let him copy you, you should have no trouble beating Kirby as Greninja because of how good shurikens are against him. Their great aerial frame data makes SH shurikens particularly good against Kirby players who try to jump in.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I like the idea of having Kirby being designed around his Copy Abilities. I mean, a huge part of Kirby's games are using enemy powers to give you more options to play with, as well as vary the gameplay. In Smash 4, I do think the designers went a little overboard on making Kirby dependent on them, but this is where Kirby's design brings up a dilemma:

Do you either make Kirby's base moveset and design good enough to where Copy Abilities aren't required, or do you make his base moveset decent but become reliant on Copy Abilities to give him an edge in the battle?

It's a reason why Kirby's one of the most difficult and interesting characters to design. Personally I would love to see a game where his base moveset was good on its own, but having Copy Abilities really does make him shine. Maybe in the next Smash Bros, he could be high tier. That way, we can say that Kirby has literally been everywhere on the tier list, lol.

But yeah, getting Copy Abilities is the way to go.

If you ask me, the real question is how easy (or hard) it is for Kirby to get that first Inhale in the first place. Sure, once he copies Sheik he can do stuff with Needles, but I can't imagine any Sheik with a smidgen of common sense is going to make it easy for Kirby to eat her.

EDIT: Also what the actual **** is going on with that caped Thoron.

 

[Mega-Spider]

If you ask me, the real question is how easy (or hard) it is for Kirby to get that first Inhale in the first place. Sure, once he copies Sheik he can do stuff with Needles, but I can't imagine any Sheik with a smidgen of common sense is going to make it easy for Kirby to eat her.

EDIT: Also what the actual **** is going on with that caped Thoron.

Pretty tough, actually. There are a number of MUs where people will go out of their way to make sure Kirby doesn't get the Copy Ability because getting the ability will improve Kirby's neutral, which by itself is pretty bad.

 

[Ethan7]

ParanoidDrone it's magic.

 

[ARGHETH]

EDIT: Also what the actual **** is going on with that caped Thoron.

Probably what happens when you cape a cross-screen projectile.
Note: I don't actually know what's going on; I'm just guessing here.
I think it has to do with Mario caping Robin while he's shooting a cross-screen projectile. The cape turned him around, so the game might have registered that he was in the other direction and sent Thoron across. It happened in the same direction due to having only caped Robin's model, though it might have moved the projectile to the opposite end of the stage, being part of the move. Or something like that, IDK.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Thoron must still be "apart" of Robin when cast so reversing Robin as he throws it reverses the Thoron as well though the it coming from the opposite side is a mystery. Or it could just be a glitch that grants Robin, Pac-Man's final smash properties. Either way I could only imagine the Robin-Mario team shenanigans with that quite the surprise move though you'd hit yourself with it.

 

[|RK|]

If you ask me, the real question is how easy (or hard) it is for Kirby to get that first Inhale in the first place. Sure, once he copies Sheik he can do stuff with Needles, but I can't imagine any Sheik with a smidgen of common sense is going to make it easy for Kirby to eat her.

I've mentioned before that there are confirms. Phan7om has labbed out quite a few ways to get copies on each character - a lot of which go unused. It doesn't have to be a hard read.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Phan7om has some really great guides for Kirby. Here's a video showcasing Kirby's grounded footstool punishes OOS:

 

[blackghost]

TBH6 entrant list is out

I've probably missed a bunch but here's a big list of notables

Spoiler: Notable Entrants

U.S.A:

Northern Atlantic: (Tristate, New England, MD/VA)
ZeRo
Nairo
Dabuz
ANTi
Pink Fresh
Marss
Mr. E
Tweek
6WX
Seagull Joe
Craftis
Pugwest
NAKAT
DKWill
Mister Eric
San
Logic
Raffi-X
WaDi
Remzi
James
Biddy
Puppeh
Shofu

Western US: (SoCal, NorCal, Vegas, PNW, etc.)
VoiD
Larry Lurr
Rich Brown
K9
JK
Zex
Z
Aarvark


Southeast: (GA, Florida, etc.)
Mew2King
ESAM
MVD
Day
Dyr
Static Manny
Saj
Wrath
True Blue
Nick Riddle
TheReflexWonder
Fatality
Rango
Myran
Jester
Wizzrobe
Hungrybox

South: (Texas, Louisiana, etc)
Samsora
Captain Zack
Cosmos
Brawlman1k
Megafox
Karna

Midwest:
Zinoto
Ned
Rayquaza07
Ksev
DarkShad
JJROCKETS
MJG
Miloni
Tyroy
Big_mak
Smasher1001
Triple R
Sofa King
Krow
Regralht
Colinies
Viev


Canada:
Ally
SuperGirlKels
Blacktwins
Iceninja
Poke
Chrim Foish
Pokecheese

Japan:
Abadango
Kamemushi
Komorikiri
Nasubi
Ri-ma
Kie
Shogun
FILIP

Europe:
Sodrek

There's still one EU player to qualify, bets on it being Mr. R.

shofu counts as a notable? OK sure.
Salem MIA agian. dang it. he needs a saga or something

 

[Krysco]

With the whole Kirby discussion, sure copy abilities can help but there's also the fact that you can lose the ability off any random hit. To my understanding, there's no knockback or damage threshold that has to be passed for Kirby to lose the ability. For a character like say Bowser, that shouldn't be too bad. Bowser doesn't tend to land too many hits (not that he needs to) but then compare that to Sheik. If Sheik hits you once, she's usually going to be able to land some more and each one of those hits could be the end of the copy ability which isn't easy to get in the first place.

 

[|RK|]

With the whole Kirby discussion, sure copy abilities can help but there's also the fact that you can lose the ability off any random hit. To my understanding, there's no knockback or damage threshold that has to be passed for Kirby to lose the ability. For a character like say Bowser, that shouldn't be too bad. Bowser doesn't tend to land too many hits (not that he needs to) but then compare that to Sheik. If Sheik hits you once, she's usually going to be able to land some more and each one of those hits could be the end of the copy ability which isn't easy to get in the first place.

While true, it's completely random (yay, staying true to the games >.>), so you could also... not lose it. But more importantly, Sheik's strings don't last as long on Kirby as they do other characters.

 

[soniczx123]

Recreated the glitch(?) with @24914x

Anyone know why this happens??@KuroganeHammer pic.twitter.com/YkY1buTQfc

— Dax (@SB_Dax) September 17, 2016

I managed to recreate the glitch with a friend of mine, but can't figure that it happens.

 

[freeziebeatz]

 

[Megamang]

Megaman rosa is a very odd MU. Pellets are really nice for smackint luma / stunning her for a second. Metal blade goes through both and does a lot of damage. Crash bomber is pretty solid in the MU; rather than stick to Luma it simply detonates, which is cool. Mega excels at edgeguarding, bair is scary for rosa at any percentage. He can do the cloud dtilt / mario DA thing to auto hit her with a weak hit of dtilt if you arent as confident in your ledge timing. He actually traps at the ledge well here, since smart pellet usage with the nair and jab hitbox can continually kill luma easily until rosa gets center stage. Uair is really great if you can get close enough (rising FH airdodge into uair, FH fair into uair, conditioning shield with metal blade throws then dropping it to uair, etc etc) since it is both safe on shield and brings luma upwards into a pretty vulnerable state and does tons of damage. Rosa herself has bad physics for uair shenanigans, you dont wanna be light or tall and she is both.


Then rosa has... GP and massive massive hitboxes. So its evenish, i can understand 45/55... even maybe in MM's advantage at battlefield.

Nair is one of the only useful zoning tools against GP, since even if she absorbs the pellets you can knock luma away. Bair is really free to hit luma but is unsafe. Megaman doesnt fall victim to luma hitlag making rosas shield safer since he doesnt really play the direct shield pressure game, notable exception being zdrops and uair and nair retreats, but these come out when people start shielding the metal blade and rosa is more likely to be hitting it or GPing it.


And mk rosa isnt that horrific, people have said recently here. His nuetral just aint all that. Dont know enough to comment.

 

[Drifting]

Sorry for bringing this up again, but I'd iike to state from experience, that Villy-Kirby is a very fun matchup for Kirby.

F-Throw to Tree anyone.

Regardless, about the Rosaluma thing, what's with the gap between Lucas and Ness.

I prefer playing Lucas, and I think he's te better character right now, but they both suffer from the same weaknesses against Rosa.

For now I'm going to assume it's because of tether grab and maybe being able to end Luma with Up Smash, but nif anyone can confirm that'd be p cool

 

[Mega-Spider]

Sorry for bringing this up again, but I'd iike to state from experience, that Villy-Kirby is a very fun matchup for Kirby.

F-Throw to Tree anyone.

Regardless, about the Rosaluma thing, what's with the gap between Lucas and Ness.

I prefer playing Lucas, and I think he's te better character right now, but they both suffer from the same weaknesses against Rosa.

For now I'm going to assume it's because of tether grab and maybe being able to end Luma with Up Smash, but nif anyone can confirm that'd be p cool

I'm not the most knowledgeable on the PK Kids myself, but if I had to guess, Lucas's moveset is better for characters like Rosa. He can deal with zoners and people with walls more efficiently than Ness can.

EDIT: Yes, F-Throw to Tree is amazing.

 

[Das Koopa]

tournies I'll be using this week

GUMS X (New England)
VSGC 9/15/16 (Florida)
Unrivaled II (Florida)
Smash Ultime (Canada)
Thunderstruck IV (Mexico)
Fighting Fest 2016 (Dominican Republic)

VSGC kind of falls under the same umbrella as Xanadu where the people who entered may warrant an occasional inclusion

 

[Luco]

Trojans I assume? Yeah, he was the guy who drowned me in pools with ghost. And he's super aggro

or maybe you mean a DIAD2 sheik, idk.

Trojans is pretty good, but I was referring to WA's big Sheik, CMK.

Also our Sheik mains are still pretty aggro so in those scenarios certain characters do a lot better than they otherwise would at top levels of play.

On Rosaluma, Lucas has PK Fire which *actually* disrupts luma, and Zair which are potent neutral tools vs Rosa, his boxing game actually does damage to her in ways that Ness doesn't, Fair is godlike and he doesn't get edge-guarded offstage whilst providing scary offstage coverage himself.

 

[TDK]

I prefer playing Lucas, and I think he's te better character right now, but they both suffer from the same weaknesses against Rosa.

For now I'm going to assume it's because of tether grab and maybe being able to end Luma with Up Smash, but nif anyone can confirm that'd be p cool

Tether grab means he doesn't autodie offstage like Ness does.

 

[Illuminose]

shofu counts as a notable? OK sure.
Salem MIA agian. dang it. he needs a saga or something

Salem just signed up.

 

[Smashifer]

Any reason as to why Mewtwo's listed as a winning matchup for her? I thought many people believed it to be 55:45 Mewtwo's favor since fair swats Luma away and a Lumaless Rosalina will have a difficult time fending herself from Mewtwo. Obviously there's more to the MU than that, but that's the deciding factor that pushes it more towards Mewtwo's favor.

Also hi, long-time lurker and decided to get active.

 

[Phan7om]

You want to know the main issue with Copy Abilities as a whole? Its the fact that the player would need to learn when and how to use about 2 characters whole movesets worth of info, all of which are matchup specific, at a relevant level.

Naw fam, why do that when I can just Utilt, Grab, Dair, and Crouch all day?

That mentality gets you a bunch of players who either dont make an effort or have a reductionist mentality where they try to "master" multiple copy abilties using a few tactics (Can it combo from Fthrow?, etc.) and super general strategies (helps your neutral and edgeguards). Its all theorycraft that really doesn't help at the end of the day, so always take Kirby hat matchups with a grain of salt.

HoSmash4 brought up a good point, as long as Kirbies have this mentality they wont be used effectively for a while.

Is it worth it? Thats a question for another day. Right now we can only try to prove that it is.

 

[Fenny]

Salem just signed up.

*silently rejoices*

 

[verbatim]

tournies I'll be using this week

GUMS X (New England)
VSGC 9/15/16 (Florida)
Unrivaled II (Florida)
Smash Ultime (Canada)
Thunderstruck IV (Mexico)
Fighting Fest 2016 (Dominican Republic)

VSGC kind of falls under the same umbrella as Xanadu where the people who entered may warrant an occasional inclusion

Not https://smash.gg/tournament/zero-fo...ro-ally-zinoto-jj/brackets/15828/59587/193925?

It had a comparable # of entrants to Unrivaled, and a lot of random top midwest players showed up (Zinoto/Ally/Tyroy/JJ/Ryuga/Ned/Darkshad).

 

[jet56]

tournies I'll be using this week

GUMS X (New England)
VSGC 9/15/16 (Florida)
Unrivaled II (Florida)
Smash Ultime (Canada)
Thunderstruck IV (Mexico)
Fighting Fest 2016 (Dominican Republic)

VSGC kind of falls under the same umbrella as Xanadu where the people who entered may warrant an occasional inclusion

http://challonge.com/FD10Singles- 96 man event, with Larry Lurr, K9 being notable OoS players. Other strong notable players being Saiki, PG SS, Stroder, Apachai. would consider this one as well.

 

[Megamang]

Phan7om but so many overlap. Charge shot/ shadow ball. Some are just useless (pk flash)... and some are, imho, obvious (luigi fireballs)

But maybe I'm biased; copy is why kirby stands out to me so when i pull him out i very much focus on the abilities.

Still, every kirby at least needs to learn to shoot shakanetsu hadouken, it is so so so good for kirb's nuetral. Slow projectiles he can come in behind are great in general, since his frame data is actually amazing and he can pressure your shield safely and effectively.

 

[Fenny]

Interesting to see Bayo as a 50:50 when high and top Rosa mains generally see her as one of her hardest MUs.

I can see why they'd think that, but a Bayo who plays the patient game attacking with her bullets to rack up damage on her and Luma and capitalizes on Rosa's openings really doesn't make the MU fun for her. Doesn't help that Rosa gets hard punished by Bayo in the air for her lack of landing options.

 

[DunnoBro]

Some megaman love too! Watching some recent stream, it seemed like diddy had some trouble with DHD. Honestly that makes a ton of sense to me but i dont want to really push the idea cause i dont know anything about DHD. DunnoBro opinion on diddy vs DHD?

Most diddy's hate the mu cause diddy just can't outcamp dhd. All his projectiles block banana while still pressuring diddy. But, it's still bad for dhd once diddy goes in with monkey kicks which negate all his projectiles and duck has no on-reaction or decent punishes in general for it.

 

[Tizio Random]

Mewtwo/Rosa is 55:45 in Mewtwo's favor, and Bayo is at least 55:45. There's no way DK is 60:40 for us. That's a 70:30 match up, it's simply destruction. I know Hikaru has beaten Falln at EVO but from my experience DK can't do anything to Rosa, even Ding Dong is incredibly hard to perform. I have some other small nitpicks but they are not that bad.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Lucas doesn't get easy bake combos like ness does, and Lucas doesn't have ness's God like back throw. Those two things are really a big part of why ness is more popular than Lucas.

What Lucas does have going for him over ness is a better zoning game due to zair and a better jab to help keep opponents out. Also as mentioned Lucas has more survivability due to the tether and his pk cannon going farther and his pk thunder being less prone to being interrupted due to it going through stuff.

This being said Lucas Lucas doesn't really have a good "get off me" attack like ness's Nair, and Lucas's Nair can be sdi'ed. I think The gap between Lucas and ness will shrink over time. Ness's success has been waning with foe doing less and saying people are for firing out ness, and tiheta or whatever his name is in Japan is racking up results with Lucas.

 

[meleebrawler]

I like the idea of having Kirby being designed around his Copy Abilities. I mean, a huge part of Kirby's games are using enemy powers to give you more options to play with, as well as vary the gameplay. In Smash 4, I do think the designers went a little overboard on making Kirby dependent on them, but this is where Kirby's design brings up a dilemma:

Do you either make Kirby's base moveset and design good enough to where Copy Abilities aren't required, or do you make his base moveset decent but become reliant on Copy Abilities to give him an edge in the battle?

It's a reason why Kirby's one of the most difficult and interesting characters to design. Personally I would love to see a game where his base moveset was good on its own, but having Copy Abilities really does make him shine. Maybe in the next Smash Bros, he could be high tier. That way, we can say that Kirby has literally been everywhere on the tier list, lol.

But yeah, getting Copy Abilities is the way to go.

Isn't he already high tier in 64?

 

[Mega-Spider]

Isn't he already high tier in 64?

He's the second best in 64. I think that's top tier. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Megamang]

64 has a more Brawl MK-esque situation, with a clear best character in pikachu. Everyone has insane advantage and shield pressure games but pika stands above with absurd hitboxes that cut through everything, a ness level bthrow, and QA... in a game where you should be dead offstage, pika has an invincible recovery.

So its a matter of perspective if 2nd is top tier in 64. Personally, id say no due to how many players opt for the ditto when the pressure is on.


Sorry for the 64 tangent; i really love smash history and metagame comparisons (evidenced by my constant presence in the CCI threads)

 

[Browny]

Anyone who pulls off a footstool - stone kill combo on some top player on stream will be immortalised in smash 4 history.