Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[MrListerTheSisterFister]

Sonic vs Everyone that matters

Sonic the Hedgehog vs:

Spoiler: Bayonetta (2-5)

1-2 True Blue vs saj CEO2K16
1-3 Seagull Joe vs Pink Fresh MM4

I am baffled you didn't include Salem vs 6WX. No doubt the best Bayonetta, especially over Saj and Pink Fresh, and one of the most prominent Sonic player.

Here is the set btw.

 

[NegaNixx]

I am baffled you didn't include Salem vs 6WX. No doubt the best Bayonetta, especially over Saj and Pink Fresh, and one of the most prominent Sonic player.

Here is the set btw.

Oh I didn't mean not to include it, I was just looking at more sizeable tournaments. I think the smallest tournament I added was CollisionXIV 147 entrants, and I was sort of against adding that in this initial draft. I'll add it because you brought it up though.

 

[MrListerTheSisterFister]

Oh I didn't mean not to include it, I was just looking at more sizeable tournaments. I think the smallest tournament I added was CollisionXIV 147 entrants, and I was sort of against adding that in this initial draft. I'll add it because you brought it up though.

Oh, my apologizes. I assumed you were going for notable players against each other. That makes more sense then, lol my bad.

 

[verbatim]

I think listing tournament top level ratio's as an end all be all to matchups is a bad practice that really doesn't say much, especially with such a small sample size and differing amounts of representation for the characters included.

If we applied a similar strategy to Melee over the past year Jigglypuff would be evenish with Fox and beat every other character in the entire game.

 

[Megamang]

Its more to see when the data tells a totally different story, then we analyze. Of course, you have to take into account the skill difference etc, but if it still doesn't add up, it can start a new conversation about a MU.
But yea, taking results ratios as MU ratios would be disasterous at best. I mean look at how much Nairo inflates the ZSS stats...

 

[SpeedyKP]

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v2.0 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

--------------------TOP--------------------
S:
A:
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B:
C:
--------------------MID---------------------
D:
E:
--------------------LOW-------------------
F:
G:
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H:

Graphic Version:

Special thanks to @shrooby for the image.

Spoiler: Addendum for Mii Fighters

27 votes had Mii Fighters. While we were not able to accrue enough data for XXXX Miis, we did find results with 1111 Miis, which placed them into the bottom tier as follows:
H:

Spoiler: Voting Data

Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group) | Weighted Group | Difference from v1.0
Diddy Kong | 1.32 | 1.501 | 9.88 | 0.391 | 9.95 | +8
Cloud | 2.18 | 2.18 | 9.84 | 0.418 | 9.91 | +10
Sheik | 2.66 | 2.734 | 9.65 | 0.7 | 9.82 | -2
Rosalina | 3.39 | 2.085 | 9.66 | 0.634 | 9.85 | -1
Mario | 4.88 | 2.443 | 9.33 | 0.786 | 9.62 | +3
Sonic | 5.39 | 2.756 | 9.29 | 0.733 | 9.61 | ±0
Fox | 5.88 | 2.376 | 9.15 | 0.776 | 9.56 | ±0
Zero Suit Samus | 7.09 | 2.182 | 8.83 | 0.782 | 9.28 | -6
Ryu | 8.41 | 4.165 | 8.68 | 0.874 | 9.14 | -5
Mewtwo | 8.46 | 3.07 | 8.72 | 0.73 | 9.21 | +27
Bayonetta | 8.93 | 3.914 | 8.74 | 0.885 | 9.14 | New
Pikachu | 13.88 | 3.274 | 7.67 | 0.9 | 8.26 | -7
Meta Knight | 14.54 | 5.931 | 7.62 | 1.092 | 8.17 | -4
Villager | 15.07 | 4.358 | 7.51 | 0.806 | 8.08 | -3
Mega Man | 15.93 | 5.837 | 7.4 | 0.937 | 7.95 | +13
Ness | 16.39 | 4.916 | 7.41 | 1.068 | 8 | -3
Toon Link | 16.64 | 3.739 | 7.23 | 0.836 | 7.82 | +5
Corrin | 17.85 | 6.337 | 7.15 | 1.107 | 7.66 | New
Marth | 19.36 | 6.852 | 7.01 | 1.063 | 7.47 | +23
Captain Falcon | 20.95 | 4.615 | 6.72 | 0.922 | 7.26 | -6
Greninja | 21.11 | 5.731 | 6.8 | 1.052 | 7.32 | +4
Lucario | 21.52 | 5.405 | 6.63 | 0.968 | 7.14 | +1
Yoshi | 23.64 | 5.201 | 6.42 | 0.984 | 6.9 | -8
Pit | 23.73 | 6.264 | 6.39 | 1.115 | 6.83 | -6
Donkey Kong | 24.41 | 4.854 | 6.27 | 0.98 | 6.68 | +2
Peach | 24.52 | 5.898 | 6.2 | 1.079 | 6.64 | -7
Dark Pit | 24.89 | 5.888 | 6.27 | 1.044 | 6.68 | -10
R.O.B. | 25.64 | 5.393 | 6.08 | 1.17 | 6.51 | -8
Luigi | 27.34 | 6.583 | 5.95 | 1.126 | 6.26 | -13
Olimar | 30.93 | 7.914 | 5.62 | 1.338 | 5.94 | -6
Robin | 30.98 | 6.396 | 5.42 | 0.931 | 5.61 | ±0
Bowser | 31.55 | 5.812 | 5.23 | 1.018 | 5.4 | -2
Lucas | 32.18 | 7.071 | 5.17 | 1.149 | 5.34 | +3
Wario | 32.61 | 4.471 | 5.26 | 0.943 | 5.43 | -13
Ike | 32.68 | 5.711 | 5.06 | 1.03 | 5.08 | -7
Lucina | 34.52 | 7.746 | 4.95 | 1.178 | 5.08 | +13
Mr. Game & Watch | 37.8 | 6.637 | 4.38 | 1.337 | 4.33 | +1
Pac-Man | 38.73 | 6.016 | 4.34 | 1.097 | 4.18 | -6
Little Mac | 38.8 | 6.891 | 4.21 | 1.149 | 4.01 | +7
Palutena | 38.91 | 5.881 | 4.11 | 1.156 | 3.94 | +12
Kirby | 39.27 | 6.413 | 4.23 | 1.166 | 4.06 | -5
Duck Hunt | 40 | 7.697 | 4.21 | 1.303 | 4.05 | +3
Link | 40.64 | 8.186 | 4.09 | 1.338 | 3.94 | +1
Shulk | 41.77 | 6.753 | 3.86 | 1.267 | 3.6 | -2
Samus | 42.66 | 6.459 | 3.71 | 1.186 | 3.49 | +8
Bowser Jr. | 43.18 | 5.907 | 3.61 | 1.138 | 3.33 | -10
Wii Fit Trainer | 43.18 | 5.465 | 3.65 | 1.043 | 3.35 | -5
Dr. Mario | 45.16 | 4.554 | 3.47 | 1.051 | 3.11 | -1
Falco | 45.75 | 4.141 | 3.25 | 1.036 | 2.86 | -9
Roy | 46.02 | 5.323 | 3.38 | 1.191 | 3.08 | -15
Charizard | 48.27 | 3.763 | 2.82 | 1.077 | 2.48 | ±0
King Dedede | 49.02 | 4.06 | 2.7 | 1.146 | 2.32 | -6
Mii Gunner | 51.26 | 6.322 | 2.28 | 1.124 | 1.7 | +2
Mii Brawler | 51.89 | 6.696 | 2.26 | 1.316 | 1.76 | -3
Zelda | 52.07 | 2.235 | 1.92 | 0.616 | 1.49 | +3
Ganondorf | 52.66 | 2.254 | 1.9 | 0.651 | 1.47 | ±0
Mii Swordfighter | 53.85 | 3.951 | 2.04 | 0.947 | 1.53 | -2
Jigglypuff | 53.98 | 1.433 | 1.72 | 0.604 | 1.35 | -1

Spoiler: Text Version

--------------------TOP--------------------
S: Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik, Rosalina, Mario, Sonic, Fox
A: Zero Suit Samus, Ryu, Mewtwo, Bayonetta
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B: Pikachu, Meta Knight, Villager, Mega Man, Ness
C: Toon Link, Corrin, Marth, Captain Falcon, Greninja, Lucario
--------------------MID---------------------
D: Yoshi, Pit, Donkey Kong, Peach, Dark Pit, R.O.B., Luigi
E: Olimar, Robin, Bowser, Lucas, Wario, Ike, Lucina
--------------------LOW-------------------
F: Mr. Game & Watch, Pac-Man, Little Mac, Palutena, Kirby, Duck Hunt, Link
G: Shulk, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, Falco, Roy
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H: Charizard, King Dedede, Zelda, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff

Spoiler: Smashboards Tier List Maker Version

You can read the full article here.

The Tier List v1.0 Impressions Thread can be found here for archival's sake.

As with v1.0, a fleshed out blurb as well as special thanks can b e found there, and should be the primary reference point. The tier list assumes no custom movesets. As with the last tier list thread, this thread is to focus on the list and not off-topic discussion; the article is there for you otherwise. Feel free to ask questions (you can tag myself or @Shaya if you'd like, and hopefully we can get a few more members on board to answer some questions!)

Diddy #1? LOL that's so stupid, hes good, but not the best, sonic is the best IMO

 

[FamilyTeam]

That looks like an accidental double post, to me.
Nobody really knows who can be the best character, by this point. Most people have been speculating Diddy after the Sheik and ZSS nerfs, but even then, who can say.
Why would you think it's Sonic, personally? Specially since Sonic doesn't even have nearly as many merits as the characters ahead of him in the official list.

 

[SpeedyKP]

He can play patiently, aggressively, and everywhere in between, he can rush you down, get the percent lead, then camp for the rest of the game, his kill power isn't the best but is passable, he doesn't really lose many matchups too hard, he's just a super solid character

 

[FullMoon]

Most of what you said can be applied to Diddy too.

Also "he's just a super solid character" can be said to pretty much every top tier and high tiers.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Also "he's just a super solid character" can be said to pretty much every top tier and high tiers.

Heck, even a lot of mid and low tiers as well.

Almost every character in the game is "solid."

It's just they don't have dominating features.






That said, I'd like to bring up one talking point. Is vs the worst matchup in the game? I mean getting rid of any chance of recovering with one input is a fairly large problem.

 

[FamilyTeam]

He can play patiently, aggressively, and everywhere in between, he can rush you down, get the percent lead, then camp for the rest of the game, his kill power isn't the best but is passable, he doesn't really lose many matchups too hard, he's just a super solid character

A lot of characters are super solid, like said before. Sonic being able to play however he wants isn't even a trait that is so specific to him.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Diddy #1? LOL that's so stupid, hes good, but not the best, sonic is the best IMO

You have a lot of explaining to do.

Heck, even a lot of mid and low tiers as well.

Almost every character in the game is "solid."

It's just they don't have dominating features.






That said, I'd like to bring up one talking point. Is vs the worst matchup in the game? I mean getting rid of any chance of recovering with one input is a fairly large problem.

It's very bad,but it's probably not the worst matchup.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Heck, even a lot of mid and low tiers as well.

Almost every character in the game is "solid."

It's just they don't have dominating features.






That said, I'd like to bring up one talking point. Is vs the worst matchup in the game? I mean getting rid of any chance of recovering with one input is a fairly large problem.

I just had a lengthy discussion about this on the Sheik discord.
The answer is no.
MK Puff, MM DDD, and Sonic Ganon are far, far worse.

 

[Ethan7]

getting rid of any chance of recovering

A lot of the time he will have his long distance double jump and get back on stage. You don't just throw Ness offstage and take a stock just like that.

 

[adom4]

I just had a lengthy discussion about this on the Sheik discord.
The answer is no.
MK Puff, MM DDD, and Sonic Ganon are far, far worse.

Sonic vs Ganon is saved by the fact that Flame choke is really good vs Sonic because D-tilt follow up, good air choke follow ups plus a mediocre tech roll, it's still a very bad MU but not his worst.
If anything Ganon vs Bayonetta is up there, it's not Brawl tier unwinnable like prenerfs but it's still a huge struggle & it's easily his worst MU imo.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Heck, even a lot of mid and low tiers as well.

Almost every character in the game is "solid."

It's just they don't have dominating features.

Nah that's a bit far.

 

[mountain_tiger]

That said, I'd like to bring up one talking point. Is vs the worst matchup in the game? I mean getting rid of any chance of recovering with one input is a fairly large problem.

Definitely not.
If you want to see a matchup that will truly make you lose your faith in everything ever, try vs for size (probably the biggest contender for a 8-2 MU ranking in the game!)

 

[Nu~]

I just had a lengthy discussion about this on the Sheik discord.
The answer is no.
MK Puff, MM DDD, and Sonic Ganon are far, far worse.

Add Pac-Man little Mac, Pac-Man cloud, and Wario cloud to that list too.

Little Mac has a phobia of trampolines.

Cloud ignores pacman's entire game plan (hydrant drop in disadvantage? Nah, uair. Fruit and hydrant setups? Nah, shield and Nair. Trying to set up I see? Well I'll just charge limit over here...)

It would be a 8-2 if pacman didn't destroy cloud offstage. Now Wario cloud on the other hand may actually be an 8-2...

 

[Mega-Spider]

V MU in a nutshell:

Dedede, just put the controller down. You clearly can't do **** against Megs here.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Definitely not.
If you want to see a matchup that will truly make you lose your faith in everything ever, try vs for size (probably the biggest contender for a 8-2 MU ranking in the game!)

...What?

Mewtwo isn't even one of Jigglypuff three worst matchups and I doubt one of her five worst....

(Top three is Mario, Meta Knight, Yoshi)

 

[|RK|]

I always figured Sonic DDD was garbage. It's like... Sonic vs Kirby, Kirby can at least play rock/paper/scissors against spindash. DDD has all of the same weaknesses, but nothing that does... anything vs Sonic. Like, at all.

 

[NegaNixx]

I think listing tournament top level ratio's as an end all be all to matchups is a bad practice that really doesn't say much, especially with such a small sample size and differing amounts of representation for the characters included.

If we applied a similar strategy to Melee over the past year Jigglypuff would be evenish with Fox and beat every other character in the entire game.

I'm more or less just keeping it updated, so that we have access to something of the sort. Better to have it then not, the tournaments are in chronological order to show trends and the like over time. It's small now, but overtime it'all grow and actually mean something. And we can use it to look at match ups and see what matches up and if there's a reason why things don't.

 

[Das Koopa]

I was very ill for a week. Sorry for the delays, here's last week's thing, I will add up scores tonight:

Spoiler: GUMS X (September 18th) (New England) (124 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Marss
2nd: Light
3rd: XL-XCVII
4th: Raffi-X
5th: MattyG ,
5th: Craftis
7th: Pugwest
7th: Kogarasuma
9th: Pelca
9th: LingLing
9th: IceArrow ,
9th: Hero
13th: Kuma
13th: Tsage
13th: Tony Pajamas
13th: Red Beef Baron

Spoiler: Thunderstruck IV (September 17th-18th) (Mexico) (164 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MKLeo , ,
2nd: Wonf , ,
3rd: Klein
4th: ROX , ,
5th: Meme ,
5th: Addy
7th: Daimy
7th: Cloudy
9th: Kaze
9th: Waymas
9th: Necro
9th: Fizz
13th: Terry
13th: David
13th: Chota
13th: Flama

Spoiler: Fighting Fest 2016 (September 17th-18th) (Dominican Republic) (142 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DKWill
2nd: DigitalStrider
3rd: 8A
4th: 0mart ,
5th: Gran Papin
5th: RR Stark
7th: RR Keekay
7th: Sharpyzard
9th: Monra
9th: Ermac
9th: Naranja
9th: KBGTO
13th: Maet
13th: TripleA
13th: SS Striker
13th: Xerox/SiN Xero

Spoiler: Final Destination 10 (September 18th) (Southwest) (96 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: K9
2nd: Saiki
3rd: Larry Lurr
4th: Stroder ,
5th: SS ,
5th: DKollie
7th: Airvault
7th: Spearwing
9th: Scorch
9th: Kallor
9th: Apachai
9th: Psychdelifox
13th: Kami
13th: Wulfn
13th: Felix
13th: Horse

Spoiler: VSGC 9/15/16 (September 15th) (Florida) (89 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Dath
2nd: ESAM ,
3rd: 8BitMan ,
4th: Xaltis
5th: Seibrik , ,
5th: TNF Child
7th: Tremendo Dude
7th: Morpheus
9th: PPG Josh
9th: True Blue
9th: Zurak
9th: Eden
13th: PPG Leo
13th: Vitamin
13th: Hex
13th: Neito

Spoiler: Unrivaled II (September 17th) (Florida) (88 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Static Manny
2nd: Dyr ,
3rd: Saj
4th: Prince Ramen
5th: Cashmere
5th: Riot
7th: 8BitMan
7th: Tachyon
9th: Ross
9th: TheGount
9th: Ewok41
9th: Tumultus
13th: RoguePenguin
13th: Zeta
13th: Rideae
13th: Kazu

Spoiler: Smash ULtime (September 16-18th) (Canada) (86 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DarkAura
2nd: Holy
3rd: SuperGirlKels ,
4th: Darkwolf
5th: Z
5th: Venom ,
7th: Fwed
7th: Dunston ,
9th: Mr Gommi
9th: Fairlines
9th: Flieskiller
9th: Jayy
13th: REMX
13th: Sensuell
13th: Sharu
13th: Stroumbert

that one Midwest tourney with Ally & whatnot didn't hit 80 entrants. Did Hirosuma 5 hit 80?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I was very ill for a week. Sorry for the delays, here's last week's thing, I will add up scores tonight:

Spoiler: GUMS X (September 18th) (New England) (124 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Marss
2nd: Light
3rd: XL-XCVII
4th: Raffi-X
5th: MattyG ,
5th: Craftis
7th: Pugwest
7th: Kogarasuma
9th: Pelca
9th: LingLing
9th: IceArrow ,
9th: Hero
13th: Kuma
13th: Tsage
13th: Tony Pajamas
13th: Red Beef Baron

Spoiler: Thunderstruck IV (September 17th-18th) (Mexico) (164 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MKLeo , ,
2nd: Wonf , ,
3rd: Klein
4th: ROX , ,
5th: Meme ,
5th: Addy
7th: Daimy
7th: Cloudy
9th: Kaze
9th: Waymas
9th: Necro
9th: Fizz
13th: Terry
13th: David
13th: Chota
13th: Flama

Spoiler: Fighting Fest 2016 (September 17th-18th) (Dominican Republic) (142 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DKWill
2nd: DigitalStrider
3rd: 8A
4th: 0mart ,
5th: Gran Papin
5th: RR Stark
7th: RR Keekay
7th: Sharpyzard
9th: Monra
9th: Ermac
9th: Naranja
9th: KBGTO
13th: Maet
13th: TripleA
13th: SS Striker
13th: Xerox/SiN Xero

Spoiler: Final Destination 10 (September 18th) (Southwest) (96 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: K9
2nd: Saiki
3rd: Larry Lurr
4th: Stroder ,
5th: SS ,
5th: DKollie
7th: Airvault
7th: Spearwing
9th: Scorch
9th: Kallor
9th: Apachai
9th: Psychdelifox
13th: Kami
13th: Wulfn
13th: Felix
13th: Horse

Spoiler: VSGC 9/15/16 (September 15th) (Florida) (89 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Dath
2nd: ESAM ,
3rd: 8BitMan ,
4th: Xaltis
5th: Seibrik , ,
5th: TNF Child
7th: Tremendo Dude
7th: Morpheus
9th: PPG Josh
9th: True Blue
9th: Zurak
9th: Eden
13th: PPG Leo
13th: Vitamin
13th: Hex
13th: Neito

Spoiler: Unrivaled II (September 17th) (Florida) (88 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Static Manny
2nd: Dyr ,
3rd: Saj
4th: Prince Ramen
5th: Cashmere
5th: Riot
7th: 8BitMan
7th: Tachyon
9th: Ross
9th: TheGount
9th: Ewok41
9th: Tumultus
13th: RoguePenguin
13th: Zeta
13th: Rideae
13th: Kazu

Spoiler: Smash ULtime (September 16-18th) (Canada) (86 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DarkAura
2nd: Holy
3rd: SuperGirlKels ,
4th: Darkwolf
5th: Z
5th: Venom ,
7th: Fwed
7th: Dunston ,
9th: Mr Gommi
9th: Fairlines
9th: Flieskiller
9th: Jayy
13th: REMX
13th: Sensuell
13th: Sharu
13th: Stroumbert

that one Midwest tourney with Ally & whatnot didn't hit 80 entrants. Did Hirosuma 5 hit 80?

I pretty sure both did so yeah.

Also iirc SGK got 2nd instead of Holy, but I could be mistaken. Also what category is Aba Saga going to be? 500+ entrants with 8/11 of top 11 PGR(not saying there entirely accurate, but it's the main source we have)


EDIT:Whoops your right the Midwest one did not hit 80 but Hirosuma did indeed hit like 85 I think

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

darkwolf used cloud in his set against holy, but lost 3-2

 

[Deleted member]

I just had a lengthy discussion about this on the Sheik discord.
The answer is no.
MK Puff, MM DDD, and Sonic Ganon are far, far worse.

v and v are both feasibly unwinnable for the latter in both cases I'd say. If there's one thing that bothers me when people want to praise this game's balance it's that "there's no outright awful or blowout matchups in this game", but there definitely are.

I want to talk about one in detail, more Shulk rambles incoming.

v

Holy mother of god this is a terrible matchup. It's legit one of his biggest gatekeepers at high level play, only and come close as to how excruciating it can be for Shulk. How Nicko manages to have clutch sets against Charliedaking I don't even understand. Shulk in general doesn't have the best time against most high tiers, but this Fox is literally everything Shulk hates. Shulk already has issues landing without Jump Art, and Fox exploits this weakness greatly.

A set from GOML 2016, showcasing the respective best players (DarkWolf is basically tied for Nicko with best Shulk, but Nicko has more notable wins and goes to larger events along with being placed top 15 in a much more stacked region). DarkWolf has a decent early start by being able to contest Larry's movement with Speed Art and attempt to space him out, but he got one misspaced fair on Fox's shield and things go awry. As emphasized before, Shulk can't land against Fox. Larry landed 3 uairs on him in quick succession, and either utilted or PP utilted wherever he knew he'd land or attempt to airdodge the uair.

The big differential here is obviously frame data. Shulk dislikes characters who can easily get in his face, and unfortunately Fox has the ability to do all that and confirm in stronger hits that Shulk has trouble avoiding due to being a heavyweight with tall stature and not the best of air physics. It's why Buster Art is a no-go in the matchup because you'll be eating a lot more damage than you usually would anyway. Shulk can't touch Fox's shield due to the low shieldstun of his aerials (fair being the main suspect) and their inability to autocancel.

Shulk does edgeguard Fox well, but it's hard to ever get in advantage vs. Fox in the first place unless you space/poke constantly with MALLC'd aerials, and even if you go the patient route it's still an incredibly hard matchup.

 

[Dabuz]

Stop being dumb Myran ; Olimar is very much the worst character in any smash game period!

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Is vs the worst matchup in the game? I mean getting rid of any chance of recovering with one input is a fairly large problem.

Nope. Sheik vs Ness is worse than Ness vs Rosalina, and that's not the worst in the game either. Too often when Ness vs Rosa is discussed do we over exaggerate Ness getting killed offstage, as if he's always there. Ness actually does rather well against Rosa when he's on stage. Sheik on the other hand beats Ness everywhere. Destroys him in neutral, all her strings tend to force the opponent offstage where she can edge guard and ledge trap extremely well. At this rate Needle camping is going to become a meme but there isn't much Ness (or a lot of characters for that matter) can really do about it, and Needles on their own can destroy Ness' recovery.

 

[williamsga555]

Mega Man, Bayo, and ZSS are miserable for D3. Think Mega Man is the most oppressive of the three, but it really doesn't matter at that point.

Sonic is real bad for D3 as well, but it at least feels like a matchup where we're allowed to actually play. Some of the time, anyway. Shoutouts to Villager for being really obnoxious to deal with as well for him.

 

[Ethan7]

Did Hirosuma 5 hit 80?

Hirosuma 5 (translated bracket) - Challonge
Just enough.

 

[Y2Kay]

I was very ill for a week. Sorry for the delays, here's last week's thing, I will add up scores tonight:

Spoiler: GUMS X (September 18th) (New England) (124 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Marss
2nd: Light
3rd: XL-XCVII
4th: Raffi-X
5th: MattyG ,
5th: Craftis
7th: Pugwest
7th: Kogarasuma
9th: Pelca
9th: LingLing
9th: IceArrow ,
9th: Hero
13th: Kuma
13th: Tsage
13th: Tony Pajamas
13th: Red Beef Baron

Spoiler: Thunderstruck IV (September 17th-18th) (Mexico) (164 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MKLeo , ,
2nd: Wonf , ,
3rd: Klein
4th: ROX , ,
5th: Meme ,
5th: Addy
7th: Daimy
7th: Cloudy
9th: Kaze
9th: Waymas
9th: Necro
9th: Fizz
13th: Terry
13th: David
13th: Chota
13th: Flama

Spoiler: Fighting Fest 2016 (September 17th-18th) (Dominican Republic) (142 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DKWill
2nd: DigitalStrider
3rd: 8A
4th: 0mart ,
5th: Gran Papin
5th: RR Stark
7th: RR Keekay
7th: Sharpyzard
9th: Monra
9th: Ermac
9th: Naranja
9th: KBGTO
13th: Maet
13th: TripleA
13th: SS Striker
13th: Xerox/SiN Xero

Spoiler: Final Destination 10 (September 18th) (Southwest) (96 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: K9
2nd: Saiki
3rd: Larry Lurr
4th: Stroder ,
5th: SS ,
5th: DKollie
7th: Airvault
7th: Spearwing
9th: Scorch
9th: Kallor
9th: Apachai
9th: Psychdelifox
13th: Kami
13th: Wulfn
13th: Felix
13th: Horse

Spoiler: VSGC 9/15/16 (September 15th) (Florida) (89 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Dath
2nd: ESAM ,
3rd: 8BitMan ,
4th: Xaltis
5th: Seibrik , ,
5th: TNF Child
7th: Tremendo Dude
7th: Morpheus
9th: PPG Josh
9th: True Blue
9th: Zurak
9th: Eden
13th: PPG Leo
13th: Vitamin
13th: Hex
13th: Neito

Spoiler: Unrivaled II (September 17th) (Florida) (88 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Static Manny
2nd: Dyr ,
3rd: Saj
4th: Prince Ramen
5th: Cashmere
5th: Riot
7th: 8BitMan
7th: Tachyon
9th: Ross
9th: TheGount
9th: Ewok41
9th: Tumultus
13th: RoguePenguin
13th: Zeta
13th: Rideae
13th: Kazu

Spoiler: Smash ULtime (September 16-18th) (Canada) (86 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: DarkAura
2nd: Holy
3rd: SuperGirlKels ,
4th: Darkwolf
5th: Z
5th: Venom ,
7th: Fwed
7th: Dunston ,
9th: Mr Gommi
9th: Fairlines
9th: Flieskiller
9th: Jayy
13th: REMX
13th: Sensuell
13th: Sharu
13th: Stroumbert

that one Midwest tourney with Ally & whatnot didn't hit 80 entrants. Did Hirosuma 5 hit 80?

I'm 99.99% sure Super Girl Kels got 2nd at Smash UL time.

 

[Ninety]

Stop being dumb Myran ; Olimar is very much the worst character in any smash game period!

switches off from Rosalina

 

[Dabuz]

Well she's bottom 10 :^)

 

[Kofu]

Stop being dumb Myran ; Olimar is very much the worst character in any smash game period!

If by "worst" you mean "having the most irritating design deliberately introduced" then yes. (The ICs weren't likely meant to have chaingrabs so I don't count them).

The Villager/Olimar MU was a lot better when he could Pocket any Pikmin Throw and make all of them act like Purples. Now he can only do it with Purples.

 

[Nu~]

If by "worst" you mean "having the most irritating design deliberately introduced" then yes. (The ICs weren't likely meant to have chaingrabs so I don't count them).

The Villager/Olimar MU was a lot better when he could Pocket any Pikmin Throw and make all of them act like Purples. Now he can only do it with Purples.

I think Olimar kinda competes with Mega Man for that title tbh.

 

[Kofu]

I think Olimar kinda competes with Mega Man for that title tbh.

Mega Man's up there, but he's not nearly as small as Olimar and he typically has to jump around some. Olimar staying grounded and throwing Pikmin at you can be very hard to work around for some characters.

 

[Myran]

If by "worst" you mean "having the most irritating design deliberately introduced" then yes. (The ICs weren't likely meant to have chaingrabs so I don't count them).

The Villager/Olimar MU was a lot better when he could Pocket any Pikmin Throw and make all of them act like Purples. Now he can only do it with Purples.

That was never changed. He can still pocket all colors of side-b and they have purple style knockback but stronger.

 

[Megamang]

Just watched tremendo dude get 3rd at a florida weekly. Amazing timing, he went out to a fox.

It honestly didnt look that bad, he lost due to the bs that is fair footstool...

Disadvantage was bad... but everyone gets ****ed by fox. The true measure of your chance is whether you can do the same to him, and if you have a reasonable chance in neutral. TD was swinging his sword to land quite far away, but be relatively safe. Shulk also seemed to get some really solid conversions when he was able to hit; much like shiek he carries you to the edge and then gets an attempted edgeguard... that kind of gameplan usually does well against space animals. Smash art, fair chains, dthrow... all seemed pretty threatening against fox's extreme lightness. Fox's physics probably get him monado purge'd, but im unsure.


Look. Im not saying shulk wins. Definitely not. But it didnt seem like one sided slaughter.

Putting your back to the ledge seemed risky to camp out shield. Just switch to speed, jump, or even stay in shield (on smaller main platforms) and youve got great risk/reward, since a bair tap will get you into edgeguarding fox.

Speaking of which, giant fair hurts fox offstage.

I dunno. Seemed ok. Maybe fox wasn't playing the MU specifically, but him not loving range and shulk being the rangiest stood out to me. Bair having a hitbox below covered tons of options.

Maybe a fox versed in dash powershield vs shulk timing would destroy him easily.

 

[Luco]

Heck, even a lot of mid and low tiers as well.

Almost every character in the game is "solid."

It's just they don't have dominating features.






That said, I'd like to bring up one talking point. Is vs the worst matchup in the game? I mean getting rid of any chance of recovering with one input is a fairly large problem.

Gonna go ahead and say no, given Gackt 2-0'd Atelier recently, I just think Ness mains are terrified and lose their ability to play gem.

Ness is kind of ok vs Rosa onstage I guess? I think the biggest saving grace in this MU tbh is Rosa is one of the easiest characters in the game (probably easier than Greninja) to 2-frame with Yoyo and it kinda means she sucks offstage really really hard too. It's just you'll see Ness put in that position more often than her so it looks horrific.

I don't think Ness-Sheik is worse than Ness-Rosa, if it was I doubt S1 would have been able to even manage to take a game vs Mr R in one of their GF sets recently given how high calibre a player Mr R is. I'll have to look into it more tbh.

 

[TDK]

Definitely not.
If you want to see a matchup that will truly make you lose your faith in everything ever, try vs for size (probably the biggest contender for a 8-2 MU ranking in the game!)

LeeT actually forced Z to switch off Mewtwo at shine. Though to be fair I'd say LeeT is the best puff in the world and Z's just average, but still.

Any top tier Ganon is gonna look like an 8-2.