Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Mr. Johan]

If it's not all talk, ANTi plans on bringing out Charizard as a CP to Mario. So I suppose we'll see?

Good.

The quicker we all realize he's Top 25, if not Top 15, the better.

I'm only half-kidding

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I think I can safely tell you that no, that didn't happen.

I think the lowest placing Ike's gotten during voting that I saw was somewhere around bottom 15 which is... not exactly something I agree with but -shrug-

Thank goodness, I didn't want to try to wrap my head around how that could even be possible. Though bottom 15 is still very much lol worthy. Just... even basic moveset analyzation wise if you don't think GOLM + secondary usage last week + trickling in results from other places amount to much. Auto-canceling/low end lag safe on shield aerials, and throw combos that kill. That alone right there should be keeping him out of people's F tier.

I also shudder to think what would have happened if people had waited to vote until last weekend with Corrin's spike in results if quite a large number of people are already commenting that he shouldn't be above Marth at a minimum. Insert my usual rant about "potential" having no place on a tier list here.

On the other hand, that might have given Roy a boost seeing as was given a moment in the spotlight, putting him closer to where he should be. Who knows.

Olimar is another puzzler to me. Dabuz has pulled him out a few times but beyond that he hasn't seen that much exposure.

 

[Yikarur]

I think the Samus MU Chart is way too optimistic.
Diddy only -1?
Why are good characters like Diddy and Mewtwo only -1 and Duck Hunt, Olimar basically ~-3?
Why are CF and Yoshi even or even Marth and ROB even?
How does she win against Lucina (while losing to Marth), Peach, Toon Link and Ike?
I just don't understand these things and I really don't think the opposition agrees on those ratios.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

If it's not all talk, ANTi plans on bringing out Charizard as a CP to Mario. So I suppose we'll see?

I can see why, getting in on Zard with Mario is a hellish gauntlet of fire and claws. Recovering is just as bad while landing is even worse. If the Charizard player doesn't rush in with SH aerials at up smash kill percent he's going to live to 160+ while Mario is hanging on by a thread if he lives past 130.

Now if only people started to take Zard seriously, then we may get around to seeing the same thing against a good portion of the cast. Seeing him this low on the tier list is disgusting tbh

 

[EternalFlare]

Maybe those who voted saw something in Pika that the majority of posters here don't see. Maybe they see the theory of the character and the supposed mu spread and think it checks out to that relative placement. At the same time, you don't exactly see people flocking to Pikachu and the players he does have don't get the results you'd expect from a character of that placing. Unless one of the Pika mains step their game up or someone else with amazing talent comes in and takes tournaments by storm or at least gets consistent top 8 placings and takes down big names with the mouse, I can see him dropping over time.

Buy hey, this is the same list that has a character that can barely, if ever get top 8 at nationals above the character that won Pound and has overall done pretty well with those who main the character and has a character with a garbage enough recovery for a top player to get beat by a lower level Luigi above that of a character that is the embodiment of safety along with being fast and being able to force a large amount of characters to approach.

Yeah this list is pretty bad in terms of coinciding with results with Ryu and Pika's placings being the most glaring. They both should be significantly lower. Coincidently, both of their arguably best mains overrate the characters so maybe that has something to do with it.

Charizard being that low is also very odd. Out of all the super heavy weights I'd argue he has best neutral and disadvantage state. So if DK is considered mid, I don't see how Charizard is bottom 5. It's not like DK has gotten a ton of decent results lately either.

 

[Murlough]

I think the Samus MU Chart is way too optimistic.
Diddy only -1?
Why are good characters like Diddy and Mewtwo only -1 and Duck Hunt, Olimar basically ~-3?
Why are CF and Yoshi even or even Marth and ROB even?
How does she win against Lucina (while losing to Marth), Peach, Toon Link and Ike?
I just don't understand these things and I really don't think the opposition agrees on those ratios.

I can't speak for other characters. Diddy shocks me, too if the chart is accurate.

I can definately see the Mewtwo matchup being 55:45 though. Obviously if a Samus wants to go projectile happy then they are pretty much free for Mewtwo but a Samus who plays the match-up right is actually a solid opponent.

Staying midrange and aggressively taking Mewtwo head on with Samus is surprisingly effective. Mewtwo dominates any long distance combat but up close Samus is a capable foe. Mewtwo still wins but it isn't a free MU by any means.

 

[EternalFlare]

I can see why, getting in on Zard with Mario is a hellish gauntlet of fire and claws. Recovering is just as bad while landing is even worse. If the Charizard player doesn't rush in with SH aerials at up smash kill percent he's going to live to 160+ while Mario is hanging on by a thread if he lives past 130.

Now if only people started to take Zard seriously, then we may get around to seeing the same thing against a good portion of the cast. Seeing him this low on the tier list is disgusting tbh

I agree with you but wouldn't Zard struggle to kill Mario early as well?

Other than sweet spot bair, what does he have that could realistically hit a fast, mobile character like Mario and kill him before 130+? And bair isn't safe on whiff or block.

I guess there's up throw but you can actually live pretty long versus that with the proper DI.

Ftilt will eventually start killing but not until higher percents.

Also what about Zard's edge guarding does Mario struggle against? Flames are annoying but they usually aren't going to mean death.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Charizard is so low because virtually no-one plays him. Draquaza is the only notable Charizard I know and his results aren't that spectacular. When your best players don't do so hot with them, it's hard to make an argument that they're good.

As I said earlier, I like that this tier list acknowledges that Bayo is still really good. She got knocked down but I think she'll be back to top 5 in due time. She went from brainless to one of the more technical characters in the game so the climb back up will definitely take some time. It took two years for people to realize that Megaman was viable so it could be around this time next year that she's a dominant threat again.

 

[Krysco]

Yeah this list is pretty bad in terms of coinciding with results with Ryu and Pika's placings being the most glaring. They both should be significantly lower. Coincidently, both of their arguably best mains overrate the characters so maybe that has something to do with it.

Charizard being that low is also very odd. Out of all the super heavy weights I'd argue he has best neutral and disadvantage state. So if DK is considered mid, I don't see how Charizard is bottom 5. It's not like DK has gotten a ton of decent results lately either.

They were even more glaring in the last tier list. Both were top 5 iirc and that was with less results and prepatch Sheik and Cloud (granted there was no Bayo or Corrin either). I'm not saying it's impossible for those 2 characters to be where they are, just that given the current results they get, it probably shouldn't be where they are right now. I recall many posts where Emblem Lord mentions how top Ryu's still do relatively dumb stuff and Ffamran has made a number of posts that apply to every character where he mentions how stiff players movement in this game are which could greatly apply to Pika given he's one of the more mobile characters in the game.

I'm one of the few willing to defend against the constant bashing Pika gets because if he's placed high on a tier list by those deemed worthy of making one, then surely they have a reason, especially if they don't suffer from massive main bias. Maybe they're wrong and Pika truly isn't that good. Crazier things have happened like Brawl Zelda being above ZSS in the first tier list. But if Pikachu has done relatively well in the first 3 Smash games with few changes to his overall moveset and in the 4th, top players still view him well, I'm willing to believe he's at least a high tier or upper mid character and not in the group of 'solid mid tiers' that many others like to put him with.

As for Zard, I'm guessing it has to do with a lack of representation and Bowser and DK having simple yet effective means of damage racking and killing, both being from grabs.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I think olimar is in that ratio because yellow pikmin invalidates charge shot, and that removes 50% of the threat from samus. I dont think the match up is that horrible however

 

[blackghost]

am I missing something, when did charizard get all these supporters?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Probably around the same time people realized he did well against a few top tiers and had some extremely useful normals

 

[Ffamran]

--
Ffamran

Here is a reliable samus matchup chart made by the top samus mains

I do agree it's a bit optimistic -- although I would attribute that to the numbering, but that's another story not allowed to be discussed here --, but let's assume this with some slight adjustments... That doesn't really seem like a terrible MU spread. Let's assume that Duck Hunt and Olimar really do a number on Samus and are kind of like gatekeepers... That's only 2 and they're pretty uncommon. Losing to the top and high tiers is "pretty fine" too if you're around mid-tier. So... Why's she in low borderline bottom tier? If anything, low-mid or just mid-. A character in the mid-hodgepodge. Pretty decent to me looking at it.

Curious about Charizard, Roy, Shulk, Wii Fit Trainer, and pretty much everyone in low to bottom. Main point is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of terrible, hard counter MUs. Looking at this and assuming it with some adjustments, it's pretty fine, so Samus shouldn't be that terrible, especially considering that while Samus has an established game plan, she's not very restricted compared to say Ganondorf who really runs the slow, "look for openings" punish game that while very effective, is very inflexible. That being said, her placement along with the others do make sense as more of this is how they're performing from what we've gathered. They can be as good or bad as they want, but they're not performing well.

Part of me, the very pessimistic part of me, wants to say this too because as I'm looking at posts and the characters in low and bottom with people saying they're so terrible that some of them need to drop even further, this is going through my mind: "Falco is gatekept by at least 10 characters. How the hell are the others equal or lower than him? I don't hear about Ganondorf, Roy, Samus, Shulk, and Zelda getting roflstomped by +10 characters." That is to say, how bad are their MU spreads that they need to drop even lower?

By gatekept and roflstomp, I mean like terrible / 20:80 / -3 MUs. Y'know, the MUs people constantly play off as nonexistent in Smash 4 and are manageable or learned? Like the time when FOW decided Falco is a good character against Rosalina, one of his gatekeepers? If Ness is having a hard time, but people say it's like 30:70 against Rosalina (off-stage), then why the hell are you making it even worse for yourself with a 20:80 MU? Stick with Ness or play Lucas or Villager. It's like failing a boss fight in some game because you were using the wrong spells or not hitting their weakness, but when you return, you make it even worse by now using spells they're (even more) resistant to. Gee, that water dragon sure isn't taking a lot of damage with wind and earth spells... *proceeds to use fire which it is resistant to and then, inexplicably, water spells that heal it* Meanwhile, the lightning spells and the party member who has access to dragon slaying skills left to heal using items... *cue the healer of the group being the main damage dealer*

What makes Link a favorable matchup? Properly using Hylian shield can almost invalidate her entire neutral in my experience, he can pressure her hard with correct spacing, his bomb ledge traps are equally threatening, and his kill power is more reliable

It might be better to ask one of the Samus players who made the MU spread or a Link player hopefully with Samus experience, but I would like to say that it would be pretty broken if Link could invalidate Samus's neutral when she's mostly using her normals and Zair. Samus isn't really a projectile zoner like Duck Hunt, Mega Man, and Villager. If Link's Hylian Shield was capable of doing that, he'd probably be the best character in the game. Unbreakable shield that auto-blocks everything as long as he's standing or crouching? Holy hell.

Unrelated, but I'm imagining Zair wars between the two.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I've always thought Zard was a respectable mid tier.
Never found it worth mentioning, though, because I wasn't aware that everyone had such......awful opinions of the character.
Good lord. Bottom 5? Worse than Falco? Really?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Honestly shulks only lopsided Matchups are diddy kong, fox, and sonic. These characters give shulk the hardest time when nearly everyone else is doable and shulk has a few tricks up his sleeve(not saying he beats the rest of the top tiers, which is not the case). Samus uses dash attack in neutral alot as well however.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Unrelated, but I'm imagining Zair wars between the two.

That's kind of what I imagine the entire matchup to be tbh
Samus has a 9 frame dash to shield and it hurts Links zoning game just as much as Link's shield hurts hers. The only reason I would give Link an advantage is because of spacing and killing abilit

 

[KuroganeHammer]

At the very least putting Charizard and Zelda in the same tier is a sin worthy of death.

 

[Aaron1997]

I think the Samus MU Chart is way too optimistic.
Diddy only -1?
Why are good characters like Diddy and Mewtwo only -1 and Duck Hunt, Olimar basically ~-3?
Why are CF and Yoshi even or even Marth and ROB even?
How does she win against Lucina (while losing to Marth), Peach, Toon Link and Ike?
I just don't understand these things and I really don't think the opposition agrees on those ratios.

Duck Hunt is bad for Samus is because Can and Gunman block all of Samus's projectiles so she has to approach 100% of the time into all of DH's crap he puts out. Also DH CQC is better then people think.

On Lucas
Why is nobody talking about his placement? He is placed way to low when he's been doing MUCH better then Ness lately. When was the last time Fow did something? Genesis? Meanwhile, Taihetia has win's over Abadango, 2/3 of the Top Zss trio, Shuton and the last 2 events he's been to he's only lost to ZeRo, Nairo and Kameme. Lucas also has more room to grow then Ness with his Footstool and Jablock stuff. Ness has better Aerials and grab but Lucas has better Recovey, Throw Combo's, Zoning.

Fatmanonice Zard also has Sharpy but he doesn't travel. He recently won a 200+ tourney a month ago with solo Zard.

 

[Murlough]

I've been saying for a month or two now that Lucas is being slept on.

I'm sure Lucas's placing is due towards very recent results and/or not enough.

I definately think we will be seeing more of him before too long. I can also see Roy, Samus, and Jr rising a bit. Not as much as I think Lucas will but people will learn to respect the characters.

I think Pikachu, Ryu, and Cloud are overrated as ****. Pikachu especially. I can't remember Pikachu ever doing anything deserving of his placings. He beat ZeRo once when the game came out....and what? Seriously, I got nothing.

Ryu and Cloud are talked about nearly every day here so I'm not gonna bother.

 

[Krysco]

In regards to Lucas, he's got 16 characters between him and Ness, the same amount Lucina has between herself and Marth. Lucas is quite a bit different from Ness compared to the differences Lucina has to Marth, going so far as to having a different gameplan. To my understanding, Lucas is more zoning oriented thanks to PK Fire and zair along with having a laggier, but further reaching grab and a less threatening bthrow. If people feel Lucas should be higher and use Ness as a reference, shouldn't the characters between the 2 be mentioned too? Lucas is not as similar to Ness as Lucina is to Marth, Dark Pit is to Pit, Doc is to Mario and I'd dare say Roy is to Marcina since Roy is still a very spacing heavy character like Marcina whereas Lucas and Ness play more differently unless I'm completely wrong in that regard.

Mind you, I'll openly admit to not knowing too much about either PK kid but just because they come from the same franchise and have similarly functioning specials, I don't see why Ness should constantly be a reference for how good Lucas should be seen. Similar situation in regards to Corrin and Zard but at least Corrin's still very spacing heavy like pretty much every FE character and Zard is constantly compared to others of his weight class despite them also playing differently with Bowser and DK being more grab heavy.

Maybe I'm completely wrong but I don't see why it's always >=, >= and >= when they're not exactly competing for the same spot (exception being and )

 

[Ffamran]

Yay... Google searching "charizard mu spread" lead to Swampasaur's MU spread for Charizard. Link for anyone who wants to see: http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-318#post-21139859.

Let's assume this... It's similar to Samus's. Not really that bad. Is it optimistic? I don't know since I don't know Charizard and I don't know Swampasaur's thought process. Possibly low-mid at worst? Possibly. Possibly reputation? Reputation that I honestly feel like is hurting Charizard, Ike, Roy, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, and Zelda? Yeah, possibly. Perhaps even Jigglypuff. Oh, and I have no idea what's going with Bowser Jr., but whatever. That being said, there are perhaps too many characters to get an idea of everything.

 

[Nobie]

The only really, really strange placements to me are Charizard and Game & Watch.

One thing that defines the bottom tier in this list is that they're more or less one-trick ponies. Jigglypuff only has air movement which leads into edgeguards (+ Rest trump card). Ganondorf is hard reads punish all day.

Charizard is a much more diverse character than that, and just seeing what Sharpy does with the character is impressive.

Same thing goes for Regi and Songun with G&W. Regi pretty consistently brings the fury with G&W and places fairly high in a lot of places. I'd bump him up to mid tier, if anything, though I'm well aware that at this point he's barely on the cusp of mid tier.

Speaking of Sharpy and Charizard, what stands out to me is of course his Grand Finals victory over that Cloud, and it got me to thinking about where the current meta is.

We talk about Cloud as this mid to low tier-invalidating character, a gate keeper whose speed, power, and ridiculous Limit shenanigans keep a large chunk of the cast at bay.

But then Cloud has a number of evenish matches with the lower tiers, including odd ones likes Charizard and Shulk. On top of that, Cloud has clearly defined weaknesses that almost any character from top to bottom can exploit. Let's say he's actually second best character in the game. Isn't it interesting that such a strong character has such pronounced counterplay? isn't it notable how such a good character has volatility built into him?

This is what I see across much of Smash 4, and what makes the tiers so much closer compared to other Smash games. In the past, top tiers could safely do their top tier things and remain untouchable. In this game, Luigi can cyclone the best Cloud and kill him at 0%.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I agree with a lot but disagree with a lot of the Charizard MU chart at the same time

I personally think all 3 of the plumbers, Wario, Bowser jr, and Falco should be moved to favorable. He can abuse their lack of range while also juggling and edgeguarding them super well. In BJR's case its pretty much just how fast can you throw him offstage and then burn him to death. Cloud, Ryu (I'm kind of iffy on this one) and Lucario feel even. Bayonetta probably be switched with Sonic tbh because **** Sonic

 

[Shaya]

My overall qualms:
1. People still taking order placements as a large reason to complain. Yes this is ordered and was voted by order, but god damn who cares.
2. Little Mac - the only thing holding Roy back from printing money $$$$ at low tier tournaments. LETS GO ROY. Yeah, overall I think his polarizing capabilities put him towards center (and he's definitely a lot scarier a character to know you're coming up against than nearly everyone before top tier...).
3. Lucas - I've personally felt Lucas is pretty solid for a while - "more option rich but not as highly tuned as Ness".
4. Pika, probably could afford to be at the end of his group/tier rather than in the front.
5. Cloud as #2 - 2/3rds of the votes in he was 3rd and I'm like "this is reasonable for now, Diddy/Sheik brosssssssssss". Gasp. But no doubt that a hyper majority of voters felt he was the strongest or close to the strongest in the game, despite the results - a season of M2K opting for Melee over Smash4 has that impact. No other top or near top level active Clouds right now. I still give him benefit of the doubt. [Wow is shaya really complaining about a 1 spot difference? LOOK AT HIS FIRST POINT]
6. Ryu - I cede that he should be a little lower, still think top tier is a fair classification for him, for now. With group scores he was below M2/Bayo reflecting people more often feeling he wasn't in the highest tier/group while those two were.
7. Lucina - I think most people who care at this stage want to not care about her. Most agree she's worse but by how much we don't know, inferior clone is an opinion shared by nearly everyone bar wifi warriors and some solid-local reppers (there are some high/top level players, particularly in SoCal, who rate Lucina though). If we gave users the discretion for placing Lucina (like the Miis), I wouldn't be surprised if there would've been a majority not placing her. If I had to, I'd place her a tier below. Truly the most "that guy" awkward character.
8. Roy - printing money at low tier events, please run them all the time with pot bonuses, kk. Consider banning little mac because he's OP. Oh but seriously, a hugeeeee hate campaign has been waged against Roy the past few months, particularly after the Marth buffs but even before hand after V1. Majority of people just don't have the skills to theory craft or the capabilities to play a swordsmen with such nuance around their spacing - they successfully hounded people into thinking "I guess he is awful". Ryo showed this character is a threat to a top 10 char like Mewtwo and not far behind with a top #5 threat like Rosalina - for all the weaknesses and shortfalls wifi warriors/low level players tout, they didn't seem to show here. I repeat: the only thing truly holding this character back is recovery, he otherwise has undertuned aerial KO power. Yes he may still roughly be a low tier with those two considerations in mind, but bottom 5 was a joke.
9. Charizard is also pretty solid, and is actually one of the biggest threats in low tier events IMO. Hopefully he'll get there (higher) eventually in terms of recognition. :FIRE: brothers though, let's look out for each other~
10. Poor Ike. Definitely think he suffers the "oh this character exists? *place him somewhere* treatment after his two main active players (mostly) dropping him for Corrin. Mid Tier is a fair classification though. A new generation of Ike players need to rise up, otherwise he will truly be forgotten. His move set doesn't really provide much in contrast to the power of Marth (at faster speeds) or the general combo/ranged power of Corrin (with faster attacks but a lot weaker dmg). He lacks a unique feel to him and I do blame it on 5.99 "I have great everything" DLC standards with Corrin and them over-buffing the range of Marth's move set

I did the vote processing, result analysing and mostly decided the tier splits for this, I'm surprised a thing or two hasn't been pointed out, I guess things/decisions were better than expected =)

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

If you can react to Marth's up B and do a perfectly timed bair to trade with it, I don't know what you are doing here. You should be out winning majors with your frame perfect reaction time that no other human has.

In all seriousness if you honestly don't understand the difference between reacting to Fox's up B and trying to predict Marth's up B I have nothing more to say to you.

1. I wasn't being emotional. I just knew you'd bring up edge guarding because that's what all Pika theory crafters bring up when they have zero evidence. And I was right based off the rest of your post.
3. Did you not consider Marth can save his double jump? Or swat Pika away? Use counter? Do an early up B once he reacts to Pika going offstage? Trying to cover all of these options makes it that much harder to edge guard, basically impossible to do consistently.

There's a reason you almost never see Mario/Marth/Lucina getting gimped. A lighting fast disjointed up B is a recipe for a stellar recovery in Smash 4.

Has Pika beaten Mr. E recently? Pugwest? MK Leo? If the top Marths really believe it's bad for them I highly doubt it's because of edge guarding and there must be other reasons we aren't considering. And regardless, results matter more than top player opinions.

Marth's up B starts up in 5 frames. That's not possible to react to.

All you can do is try to predict the exact moment where they will use it, that's not the same thing as reacting. If they even slightly change up the timing it completely throws off your punish. So it relies on luck and can never be consistent.

You put so much emphasis on results, yet don't check results either. You truly are an enigma. Has a Pikachu beaten a Marth recently? No, cause there's no one out there actually using Pikachu to begin with. And I brought up how edge guarding works for every character in the game, not specifically Pikachu. If I were to mention Pikachu's edge guarding, I would name one of his moves. Such as bair. You don't even have to trade with it, you can hit Marth from behind the disjoint and get him that way. Or you can throw a Tjolt where he's going to go. Or go off and dair him where he's trying to position himself to up b.

His recovery is predictable. You do not have to react to it. Predicting something doesn't have anything to do with luck, it has to do with noticing your opponents patterns. As has been already said, Marth is always going low. You know where he's going to be. And you're still thinking about edge guarding as if you are right next to the stage. That isn't always the case. You don't even have to go off stage, ledge trumping is a thing too.

Not only that, but you're severely underrating Pikachu. He isn't Edge Guarding: The Character. He has a fantastic, practically lagless up special that is great on platforms and acts as an approach and can lead into up tilt or a grab if you shield which starts his combos. You talk about reacting to things all the time, you're not reacting to that up special. The only reason you would ever be able shield that move is if you knew it was already coming. He has a solid projectile that forces approaches and also allows him to approach. The entire Marth v Pikachu MU is literally just both characters trying to play as lame as possible.

 

[Ninety]

Look, I'm game for the idea that Zard might be something less than irredeemable trash, but so are like fifty other characters in the game. The fact is, someone has to be bottom tier. The argument that "Zard can't be bottom 5, he has so much going for him!" doesn't fly because it's still varying degrees of valid if you replace Zard with your character of choice and bottom 5 with whatever placement you don't like for them. Think about it this way: if Zard or DDD or whoever isn't bottom x, then which x characters are definitely worse than them?

 

[Krysco]

8. Roy - printing money at low tier events, please run them all the time with pot bonuses, kk. Consider banning little mac because he's OP. Oh but seriously, a hugeeeee hate campaign has been waged against Roy the past few months, particularly after the Marth buffs but even before hand after V1. Majority of people just don't have the skills to theory craft or the capabilities to play a swordsmen with such nuance around their spacing - they successfully hounded people into thinking "I guess he is awful". Ryo showed this character is a threat to a top 10 char like Mewtwo and not far behind with a top #5 threat like Rosalina - for all the weaknesses and shortfalls wifi warriors/low level players tout, they didn't seem to show here. I repeat: the only thing truly holding this character back is recovery, he otherwise has undertuned aerial KO power. Yes he may still roughly be a low tier with those two considerations in mind, but bottom 5 was a joke.

I actually have you and I believe Emblem Lord to thank for getting me interested in the character. I used to think he was complete crap since he never got notable results and whenever I tried to use him, I had the horrible idea of treating him like Falcon with a sword. Your posts along with Emblem Lord's and me playing Rekka no Ken got me in the mood to try Roy out again and now he's one of my favourite characters to use and I no longer have quite the low opinion of him. Can go a long way to test out a character you have a low opinion of to see if it changes your mind at all...assuming you can pull off their gameplan at all (sorry Pac-man and Ryu).

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This will sound condescending af but imma just leave this here

Lucas should be doing better seeing as he's OP. Real talk I think he's better than Ness but people will call me crazy until someone good picks him up and starts doing well.

 

[Browny]

So...

The two characters (Brawl Sonic and Smash 4 Mewtwo) who I spent a very significant amount of time on this forum (<---- post count) arguing were way more viable than people think, have both received the biggest tier list jump of all characters in their respective games.



For what its worth, Sheik has no business up there with the rest of top tier. Put her where ZSS is and move ZSS a few spaces up and it makes more sense to me.

 

[arbustopachon]

is the of this game. No one agrees how good or bad he is.

 

[Shaya]

You put so much emphasis on results, yet don't check results either. You truly are an enigma. Has a Pikachu beaten a Marth recently? No, cause there's no one out there actually using Pikachu to begin with. And I brought up how edge guarding works for every character in the game, not specifically Pikachu. If I were to mention Pikachu's edge guarding, I would name one of his moves. Such as bair. You don't even have to trade with it, you can hit Marth from behind the disjoint and get him that way. Or you can throw a Tjolt where he's going to go. Or go off and dair him where he's trying to position himself to up b.

His recovery is predictable. You do not have to react to it. Predicting something doesn't have anything to do with luck, it has to do with noticing your opponents patterns. As has been already said, Marth is always going low. You know where he's going to be. And you're still thinking about edge guarding as if you are right next to the stage. That isn't always the case. You don't even have to go off stage, ledge trumping is a thing too.

Not only that, but you're severely underrating Pikachu. He isn't Edge Guarding: The Character. He has a fantastic, practically lagless up special that is great on platforms and acts as an approach and can lead into up tilt or a grab if you shield which starts his combos. You talk about reacting to things all the time, you're not reacting to that up special. The only reason you would ever be able shield that move is if you knew it was already coming. He has a solid projectile that forces approaches and also allows him to approach. The entire Marth v Pikachu MU is literally just both characters trying to play as lame as possible.

The SoCal Pikachu (the name slips my mind, fffffff), beat Mr.E in two sets at an MSM after Evo/Ktar Saga.
Mr.E is particularly fearful of that match up, Pug isn't a huge fan either IIRC.

---

While I think the match up has room to grow, going by results and general "theory" (of why things are awkward/difficult for Marth), it is fair to say it's in Pikachu's favour.
Really solid dash to shield game against Marth, the right type of burst options, can trade favourably with recoveries and can make it very difficult for Marth to get back into neutral.
Ideally, Marth wouldn't lose, but until solid punishes for QAC are forged (I suggested to Mr.E the use of reverse up tilt / up air due to their large arcing space and duration rather than nair) and not actually being one of the few characters Pika can reliably set up and continue his advantage state on, the current assessment is valid.

P.S. Marth's up-b is 5 frame start up, but doesn't sweetspot the ledge after frame 5 until like frame 12ish IIRC.
Knowing that Marth has to be a certain distance from the ledge vertically to actually not be susceptible to a trade near the ledge or being baited into a KO allows "reactable" types of situations.

Theorycrafting (it's more like mashing buzzwords together than actual craftsmanship though :<) can be so painful to read sometimes.
If you're not entirely certain of something, instead of either skirting around it or proclaiming something as fact, just concede you're not certain in an area... perhaps a third-party will chime in with information that will advance the conversation in a better way.
We're analysts here, not petty folks with anything to gain.

 

[FeelMeUp]

For what its worth, Sheik has no business up there with the rest of top tier.

Sheik defense team member here.
She has the best matchup spread in theory and the second best results(was first for a while) in the game.
Explain?

 

[Murlough]

Look, I'm game for the idea that Zard might be something less than irredeemable trash, but so are like fifty other characters in the game. The fact is, someone has to be bottom tier. The argument that "Zard can't be bottom 5, he has so much going for him!" doesn't fly because it's still varying degrees of valid if you replace Zard with your character of choice and bottom 5 with whatever placement you don't like for them. Think about it this way: if Zard or DDD or whoever isn't bottom x, then which x characters are definitely worse than them?

Ganon, Jigglypuff, Zelda, DDD, and I honestly don't know beyond them. There are arguments for literally every other character.

(the miis are right there if you care enough to mention them)

 

[Ethan7]

Sheik defense team member here.
She has the best matchup spread in theory and the second best results(was first for a while) in the game.
Explain?

Theory is subjective, but yeah, she deserves to be top tier.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Theory is subjective, but yeah, she deserves to be top tier.

Not necessarily. Looking directly at data here.
The only character that can hit everyone while almost never getting hit herself.
She's always been the best human-level peak character. Not talking about TAS or anything(where Mac is probably god).

 

[JesseMcCloud]

We would be seeing more results from Lucas if Pinkfresh mained him.

 

[Ethan7]

What makes Mac theoretically the best in TAS level play? His frame 1 jab? If there was a turn based frame by frame TAS, how could anyone hit anyone? You could just react and perfect shield all moves except ZSS's and Little Mac's jab. But how could they position themselves? Well, I guess that would only matter if there was actually such thing as turn based TAS, and if it were possible for humans to play perfectly, they would still be limited by input lag from televisions and their controllers.

Anyways, what do you mean by data. When I think of data I think of raw numbers and things like Das Koopa's tournament results system.

 

[Browny]

Sheik defense team member here.
She has the best matchup spread in theory and the second best results(was first for a while) in the game.
Explain?

I expect the top sheik mains will drop her soon enough.

When you are a top-level, highly consistent player, consistently placing 2nd or lower to 'worse' characters doesn't lead to staying with that character forever. The effect of the nerfs will still take more time.

 

[Sleek Media]

It's a good starting point, you can really tell the BRs haven't had much experience with certain characters. Lucas being so far below Ness is particularly offensive.

 

[FeelMeUp]

What makes Mac theoretically the best in TAS level play? His frame 1 jab? If there was a turn based frame by frame TAS, how could anyone hit anyone? You could just react and perfect shield all moves except ZSS's and Little Mac's jab. But how could they position themselves? Well, I guess that would only matter if there was actually such thing as turn based TAS, and if it were possible for humans to play perfectly, they would still be limited by input lag from televisions and their controllers.

Anyways, what do you mean by data. When I think of data I think of raw numbers and things like Das Koopa's tournament results system.

f1 jab+counter+mobility+dtilt+nair+up b
impossible to string and approach Mac in a TAS environment
only true combos should ever work, and he kills most of the cast at absurdly low % safely

when I say data i mean:
needles(which are stupid as all hell)
frame data(which sheik is top 1-2 in) with some stupidity sprinkled in, such as invinc on fingers/hands on usmash or half an eternity of intangibility on vanish
good hurtbox and moves that shift it in silly ways
and mobility specs(5th/6th walk, 8th run, good fastfall, wall cling, wall jump, crawl w/ low hurtbox, 4f jumpsquat, good shop and fullhop heights, etc)

I expect the top sheik mains will drop her soon enough.

When you are a top-level, highly consistent player, consistently placing 2nd or lower to 'worse' characters doesn't lead to staying with that character forever. The effect of the nerfs will still take more time.

i'm sorry, but i'm going to have to call bs on this.
when the same 2 sheiks make top 8 at almost every single tourney while having WILDLY different playstyles it means that they have room to grow. it isn't the character that's holding them back, lol.
and the sheiks both have their recent wins on bracket demons(VoiD>Ally and Mr. R>Dabuz, for example) so nothing is impossible