Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[EternalFlare]

How the **** does Pika beat Diddy?

"He edge guards Diddy so well!"

Yeah so does Kirby. Or Puff. Or literally every other character if you guess his recovery option correctly.

Diddy loses to everyone guys, just edge guard him. It's totally all that matters. Neutral play? What's that?

Pikachu is widely accepted to beat Diddy and this is coming from a Diddy main. Can camp him out with tjolts, edgeguard him, makes great use of the banana, Diddy can't deal with quick attack all that well and all his rising aerials whiff a standing pikachu.

1. No he can't. Jolts are slow laggy projectiles. The only time they'd put pressure on Diddy is in lag. Offline it's free power shields all day.

2. A good chunk of the cast can destroy Diddy offstage. That's NOT a good enough argument for a character beating him, if it was, he'd be low tier.

3. Diddy can stuff quick attacks with fair and nair. It's far from invincible. Or just wait for him to land with lag and glide toss banana forward-fsmash for an early stock.

4. Diddy's rising fair/bair whiffs on most small characters especially at further ranges not just Pikachu. I guess by this logic Puff beats Diddy as well? Never mind Diddy having little reason to aerial approach when he has an amazing down tilt and banana. Or that falling spaced fair is still fairly safe.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Even with/very slightly losing to Sheik, beats Diddy, beats Cloud, beats ZSS, beats Rosa, even with Sonic, beats Fox, etc.

Pikachu ... ESAM, even in his prime has a tremendous losing record to Sheik. That match isn't 'slightly' losing ... it's bad.
Pikachu beating Diddy Kong is completely biased, 100% ESAM-fuelled theorycrafting with nothing to back it up.
ZSS does have an even record against ESAM/Pikachu, there's no specific indicator right now that Pikachu wins.
Rosalina hasn't lost to Pikachu in a whole. Could be skill difference between dabuz and ESAM [now] but who knows. Not enough to call it an advantage for Pikachu.
Rofl @ Pikachu beating Fox. Results are solidly in Fox' favor, most Fox mains are willing to settle for even but Pikachu does not win this matchup by a long shot.

Like, I agree Pikachu can be top 15 but his matchups are nowhere close to being that good.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I know isn't highly thought about but that's quite the drop, one place outside of bottom tier is he that bad?

Good list however I agree with most of it. Let's hope another patch doesn't drop in the next two days like the last one!

 

[FeelMeUp]

Pikachu ... ESAM, even in his prime has a tremendous losing record to Sheik. That match isn't 'slightly' losing ... it's bad.
Pikachu beating Diddy Kong is completely biased, 100% ESAM-fuelled theorycrafting with nothing to back it up.
ZSS does have an even record against ESAM/Pikachu, there's no specific indicator right now that Pikachu wins.
Rosalina hasn't lost to Pikachu in a whole. Could be skill difference between dabuz and ESAM [now] but who knows. Not enough to call it an advantage for Pikachu.
Rofl @ Pikachu beating Fox. Results are solidly in Fox' favor, most Fox mains are willing to settle for even but Pikachu does not win this matchup by a long shot.

Like, I agree Pikachu can be top 15 but his matchups are nowhere close to being that good.

Why are you only citing ESAM when talking about Pikachu....?
You....do realize the character isn't exclusive to him, right?

 

[EternalFlare]

Pikachu ... ESAM, even in his prime has a tremendous losing record to Sheik. That match isn't 'slightly' losing ... it's bad.
Pikachu beating Diddy Kong is completely biased, 100% ESAM-fuelled theorycrafting with nothing to back it up.
ZSS does have an even record against ESAM/Pikachu, there's no specific indicator right now that Pikachu wins.
Rosalina hasn't lost to Pikachu in a whole. Could be skill difference between dabuz and ESAM [now] but who knows. Not enough to call it an advantage for Pikachu.
Rofl @ Pikachu beating Fox. Results are solidly in Fox' favor, most Fox mains are willing to settle for even but Pikachu does not win this matchup by a long shot.

Like, I agree Pikachu can be top 15 but his matchups are nowhere close to being that good.

If you agree he doesn't have the matchups or the results, how is he top 15 then? Because Esam said so?

Esam's opinions should really be taken with a grain of salt. He seems like a nice guy and I've enjoyed watching his Pika since Brawl so I don't mean any offence but really....let's look at the facts.

Falcon is supposed to be Pikachu's best matchup. I remember Fatality said it's the one unwinnable matchup he has at top level. Well Esam lost to a random Falcon in pools at Evo.

Similarly Esam was calling Bayonetta trash after the patch in his SDI video. He then proceeded to lose to post patch Bayonetta at CEO.

The guy clearly can't back up his claims so why hold his opinions on a pedestal? Look at results. Numbers don't lie.

Anyway I think Pika is seriously overrated partially thanks to wifi (where the majority of players play as most don't attend tournaments). Because his projectiles are 10X better in lag and you can't react well to quick attacks either. So he seems way better than he really is.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

"He edge guards Diddy so well!"

Yeah so does Kirby. Or Puff. Or literally every other character if you guess his recovery option correctly.

Diddy loses to everyone guys, just edge guard him. It's totally all that matters. Neutral play? What's that?



1. No he can't. Jolts are slow laggy projectiles. The only time they'd put pressure on Diddy is in lag. Offline it's free power shields all day.

2. A good chunk of the cast can destroy Diddy offstage. That's NOT a good enough argument for a character beating him, if it was, he'd be low tier.

3. Diddy can stuff quick attacks with fair and nair. It's far from invincible. Or just wait for him to land with lag and glide toss banana forward-fsmash for an early stock.

4. Diddy's rising fair/bair whiffs on most small characters especially at further ranges not just Pikachu. I guess by this logic Puff beats Diddy as well? Never mind Diddy having little reason to aerial approach when he has an amazing down tilt and banana. Or that falling spaced fair is still fairly safe.

You bring up fair points that hint at the matchup not being more than 55:45 in pika's favor but your sarcastic dismissal of the offstage game in this matchup is very unwarranted. You remark that if Diddy gets so badly destroyed offstage, then Jigglypuff and Kirby must beat him. Maybe if the aforementioned two had decent mobility, an offensive option that needs to be consistently reacted to in order to actually be punished, and good projectile that is actually harder to work around than you make it out to be because of the nature of arcing bounce projectiles, then they probably would beat him.

 

[Ninety]

Well, this one looks pretty damn good. Way better than the last one. I got a couple qualms, but on the whole I can say that this is a reasonable look at the current Smash 4 metagame, which definitely wasn't the case for the last one.

With how much bigger the scene has gotten since the first tier list, practically every character has gotten some notorious placing or other. I lool forward to the indignant complaints about what an injustice it is that [my main] is [x] spots lower than they should be, and even better, [character I don't like] is [y] spots higher than they deserve, the hacks. Looks like it's already started, actually. Joy!

On that very note, I can't say much about Robin's placement. He's gotten a lot of decent to great results despite the loss of Raziek, but then again so has almost everyone else, because this game rocks. I don't know who I'd move down to make him rise, but I think I can at least be content that, overall, he seems to be more recognized as a legitimate threat than he was last time around. All in all, it's fine. Someone has to be midtier, y'know?

Also, one last thing. Remember when we scoffed at the Japanese for putting Marth above Roy? Those were the days.

 

[FeelMeUp]

ITT: Having a 7:3 matchup means you should never lose the matchup again.
Please tell me how many Falcons ESAM has played against.
Now please tell me how many he has lost to.

and on the other side of the coin, please tell me how many Bayonetta players ESAM lost to prepatch.
STOP discounting a top player's skill because of a single loss. Look at their ENTIRE record, not just the one mishap.
This is the equivalent of laughing at Armada for losing a game to Chudat in a 7:3 matchup.

good games to study of Rosa vs Pikachu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ5UgN3eNX0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSaBVrsW4Co
Mind you, both ESAM AND Dabuz say that Pika wins the MU. I'll find you evidence of the other characters I mentioned in a bit.

 

[Ninety]

Wow, it took like an hour to start the Pikocalypse again. I think that's a record. Good job, everyone!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If you agree he doesn't have the matchups or the results, how is he top 15 then? Because Esam said so?

I'm saying Pikachu's matchups aren't as good as his supporters claim. Not that they aren't good.

If you're even with Diddy, Sonic, Fox, Rosalina and obviously fair well enough against ZSS you're in a good position. Sheik and Mario are kind bad but if you look at the characters that are placed around Pikachu you'll notice that they have their fair share of poor matchups as well. That's just natural at that level. They still have similar and overall favorable matchup spreads. That of high tier characters.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Also in response to Gheb, ESAM and Dabuz + ESAM and Larry agree that Pikachu beats both Rosalina and Fox respectively. Maybe it's ok to disagree with that but to call it laughable is a stretch.

 

[EternalFlare]

You bring up fair points that hint at the matchup not being more than 55:45 in pika's favor but your sarcastic dismissal of the offstage game in this matchup is very unwarranted. You remark that if Diddy gets so badly destroyed offstage, then Jigglypuff and Kirby must beat him. Maybe if the aforementioned two had decent mobility, an offensive option that needs to be consistently reacted to in order to actually be punished, and good projectile that is actually harder to work around than you make it out to be because of the nature of arcing bounce projectiles, then they probably would beat him.

Again tons of a characters have great projectiles against Diddy's recovery. And Pika's bair isn't special, just about any aerial can interrupt Diddy's up B and instantly gimp him. Puff/Kirby don't have good projectiles but they do have multiple jumps to wait out his recovery until he's forced to recover a specific way.

ITT: Having a 7:3 matchup means you should never lose the matchup again.
Please tell me how many Falcons ESAM has played against.
Now please tell me how many he has lost to.

and on the other side of the coin, please tell me how many Bayonetta players ESAM lost to prepatch.
STOP discounting a top player's skill because of a single loss. Look at their ENTIRE record, not just the one mishap.
This is the equivalent of laughing at Armada for losing a game to Chudat in a 7:3 matchup.

good games to study of Rosa vs Pikachu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ5UgN3eNX0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSaBVrsW4Co
Mind you, both ESAM AND Dabuz say that Pika wins the MU. I'll find you evidence of the other characters I mentioned in a bit.

I'm being very generous by not looking at Esam's overall record recently. If you want to go there, Pika looks even worse than if you just looked at his matchups.

Dabuz destroyed Esam in tournament at CEO. That's more relevant than outdated friendlies where people hide tech/strategies.

Armada still won the set and Chudat is not a random Icys, he's been considered top 3 with the character for several years. Also imo the matchup is only 6-4, Fox is the 7-3 matchup against Icys.

It's not nearly the same as a player claiming a matchup is free/a character sucks now, then losing a set to the character soon afterwards. How he did versus Bayonetta pre-patch is irrelevant as his argument was Bayo sucks now because of SDI.

 

[FeelMeUp]

40 minutes of raw gameplay from 3 months ago with 2 characters that were untouched are outdated....?
ok lol.
Everyone said Bayo sucked postpatch. Only now are people saying she might actually be okay.

Check his record against other Bayo players postpatch, then.
All you do is look at the one blemish on the record of a player instead of looking at their absolutely fantastic games against others.
but I guess Fox beats Pika now even though Pika destroys him in every area because Larry>ESAM, huh?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Again tons of a characters have great projectiles against Diddy's recovery

You don't seem to get Shaymin's point. The projectiles might be good for gimping Diddy, but are those characters themselves good enough to get Diddy offstage at a disadvantage? No? Then they don't beat Diddy because lolgimp. Shaymin mains Diddy like you, but you don't seem to understand the game as well as Shaymin, so I'd take his word over yours

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think Zelda is worse than Ganon and Jiggs.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think Zelda is worse than Ganon and Jiggs.

I can agree with Ganon being better than Zelda, but could you explain why you think Puff might be better?

 

[EternalFlare]

You don't seem to get Shaymin's point. The projectiles might be good for gimping Diddy, but are those characters themselves good enough to get Diddy offstage at a disadvantage? No? Then they don't beat Diddy because lolgimp. Shaymin mains Diddy like you, but you don't seem to understand the game as well as Shaymin, so I'd take his word over yours

Pika's neutral is nowhere near as good as Diddys. He struggles in neutral versus him so no, he can't reliably and constantly get him offstage for those situations anymore than normal.

That kind of argument would be better suited for the likes of Cloud. Who has decent but not stellar edge guarding on Diddy but is more relevant because he CAN contend with Diddy's neutral.

Me understanding the game less is a very bold assumption, do you have any proof? Because I don't parrot Esam's ridiculous opinions while blatantly ignoring actual evidence?

 

[Gamegenie222]

New thread here we go again.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

For the record, I maintain that pikachu is not that great and doesn't really deserve to be where he is on the tier list. All I'm saying is that he does have a few pretty nice matchups vs top tiers.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I can agree with Ganon being better than Zelda, but could you explain why you think Puff might be better?

Rest is still better than anything Zelda has.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Rest is still better than anything Zelda has.

Kind of hoped for more than just Rest, as I'd argue Zelda's Hoo Hah (she has one right? I remember seeing that a few months ago) is better due to Restwhiffs generally meaning byebye puff

 

[FeelMeUp]

Rest is so amazing in theory but is really underwhelming in practice on a character like Jiggs.
If she had better mobility and wasn't at such a high risk for whiffing/having it shielded it would certainly be a gamechanger, but as things stand she's at too high a risk to use it without taking the first stock(and gl doing that with Jiggs).
most of her rest setups don't even work at kill % without rage, unfortunately.
her aerials+airspeed are godlike though.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Personally, I find the prospect of debating the relative placements of Ganon/Zelda/Jiggs is rather unappetizing. They're all consistent long-term failures of game design and balancing on Sakurai's part. Fighting about which of them is incrementally worse than the others is just a waste of everybody's time.

 

[EternalFlare]

For the record, I maintain that pikachu is not that great and doesn't really deserve to be where he is on the tier list. All I'm saying is that he does have a few pretty nice matchups vs top tiers.

Which is backed up by literally zero evidence.

Regarding Pika's arching projectiles giving characters trouble. Two words. Perfect Shields.

His projectile simply isn't fast enough to be much of a threat onstage. Even with bad reaction time, you can easily shield it offline. And if he does it from ranges where you can't react to it as easily, that's risky on his part, it doesn't exactly have low end lag.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

It's true that Diddy's neutral is waaaaay better than Pikachu's. In this specific matchup though, pikachu happens to do fine vs Diddy in the neutral because of a decent projectile, and a low profile to cover some of Diddy's comfortable approaches such as rising fair/bair/side b.

"But what about the ground?" you ask. It's true that like most characters, pikachu struggles against a banana holding diddy. However, pikachu has the ground speed to compete with Diddy and has a semi decent ground game with a meaty albeit punishable dash attack and a very nice dtilt for spacing.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

I'm slightly confused by something, wasn't Ike considered the best FE character? I hear Japan's Smash 4 community helped with this, which I find odd. Japan had their own tier lists for previous games and I doubt Japan's stigma for Ike's redesign made him that much lower compared to previous FE characters

He was, and then Marth started being really gud.

Which makes me question how Corrin even made it past both of them.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Which is backed up by literally zero evidence.

I know people say ESAM's opinions on Pika's matchups are trash, but considering that ESAM as a player is seen as 'above average', that should mean Pika isn't bad. Please don't respond to this if your argument's going to be 'PIKA ISN'T GOOD'

He was, and then Marth started being really gud.

Which makes me question how Corrin even made it past both of them.

I hear Corrin's rather popular in Japan, but the guy I got that from tends to talk out of his ass

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Kind of hoped for more than just Rest, as I'd argue Zelda's Hoo Hah (she has one right? I remember seeing that a few months ago) is better due to Restwhiffs generally meaning byebye puff

Her dthrow uair stops working when Zelda has a bit of rage. Technically it's a thing but it's not really reliable.

Rest, an actual air game, an actual grab and has a recovery with more options.

Idk zelda has nothing lol

 

[Luco]

As an aside, mostly happy to talk about my own thoughts and vote, but might hold off a while posting my entire vote because I'm slightly intimidated by you all I think discussion of the whole workpiece is crucial right now.

One thing I wanted to mention briefly however, I think my biggest misgiving about this list comes down to Miis continuing to be a forgotten force and what circumstances have unfolded to put them in the position they are in right now. 2 years into this meta game and every MU / tier list being posted (except for this one, kinda) still has an unknown 'mii' tier list - to me that needs to go, and I'd love to see some kind of movement from our community as a whole to get the miis back into the meta.

 

[FeelMeUp]

i'd rather have zelda's throw game and bad grab than jiggs' decent grab(which isn't even because she has no mixups into grab) and nonexistent throw combos
and zelda has one of the best up b's in the game, can't say jiggs has a recovery with more options.
you know a character sucks when footstooling them repeatedly to death is an actual option.

 

[EternalFlare]

It's true that Diddy's neutral is waaaaay better than Pikachu's. In this specific matchup though, pikachu happens to do fine vs Diddy in the neutral because of a decent projectile, and a low profile to cover some of Diddy's comfortable approaches such as rising fair/bair/side b.

"But what about the ground?" you ask. It's true that like most characters, pikachu struggles against a banana holding diddy. However, pikachu has the ground speed to compete with Diddy and has a semi decent ground game with a meaty albeit punishable dash attack and a very nice dtilt for spacing.

Side B still connects on Pika. There are several other characters that low profile Diddy's aerials, again he would not even be top tier if small nuances like that were enough for characters to beat him. Downtilt is nice for Pika but doesn't lead into anything an again keep in mind, it's not like Diddy can't fair in the matchup. They just have to be falling fairs as opposed to rising fairs. And when spaced well, they aren't super punishable (around -20 iirc, which means most characters don't even have enough time to drop shield, dash grab that).

His projectile again, doesn't help much in the matchup if you are good at power shielding which isn't hard or unrealistic. The projectile is so slow and telegraphed. Offstage it's excellent. But again, tons of projectiles in the game wreck Diddy offstage, he wouldn't be where he is if you just looked at his recovery. Cloud is an even better example of this.

I know people say ESAM's opinions on Pika's matchups are trash, but considering that ESAM as a player is seen as 'above average', that should mean Pika isn't bad. Please don't respond to this if your argument's going to be 'PIKA ISN'T GOOD'

I hear Corrin's rather popular in Japan, but the guy I got that from tends to talk out of his ***

Esam also said ZSS isn't top 10. Do you believe this?

If you do not, then you must consider why you are cherry picking which of his opinions to take seriously.

Esam has a very high opinion of Pikachu but very poor tournament results (for a supposed top 15 character). If one doesn't complement the other how much weight does his opinion have?

It's like if I said Ganon was top tier then proceeded to go 0-2 in pools using Ganon for a year, would you take me seriously?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Side B still connects on Pika. There are several other characters that low profile Diddy's aerials, again he would not even be top tier if small nuances like that were enough for characters to beat him. Downtilt is nice for Pika but doesn't lead into anything an again keep in mind, it's not like Diddy can't fair in the matchup. They just have to be falling fairs as opposed to rising fairs. And when spaced well, they aren't super punishable (around -20 iirc, which means most characters don't even have enough time to drop shield, dash grab that).

His projectile again, doesn't help much in the matchup if you are good at power shielding which isn't hard or unrealistic. The projectile is so slow and telegraphed. Offstage it's excellent. But again, tons of projectiles in the game wreck Diddy offstage, he wouldn't be where he is if you just looked at his recovery. Cloud is an even better example of this.



Esam also said ZSS isn't top 10. Do you believe this?

If you do not, then you must consider why you are cherry picking which of his opinions to take seriously.

Esam has a very high opinion of Pikachu but very poor tournament results. If one doesn't complement the other how much weight does his opinion have?

It's like if I said Ganon was top tier then proceeded to go 0-2 in pools using Ganon for a year, would you take me seriously?

I never said ESAM was right. I'm saying Pika has had good results, meaning ESAM must have somewhat knew what he was doing before being the only Pika main got to his head
Oh god you're reminding me of a kid who believes Ganon's OP with that comparison

 

[Jexulus]

Huh. I thought for sure I'd be seeing this posted on September 1st, but 9 days early works for me.

Nice list overall. I won't attempt to argue specifics because I am nowhere near knowledgeable enough to dispute most of these. However, these are my impressions and observations:

1. While Mewtwo's jump to top tier is amazing, I'm pretty sure this is where we'll see Mewtwo stay; around 10th-ish place, but only if his representation stays consistent. The fact that he's placed this highly with how (comparatively) little representation he has now means that any growth in his player base will really only secure his position. I think the characters ranked above him will see the same amount of growth and optimization that Mewtwo will (or don't need growth, like Diddy), so this is probably his peak.

2. This tier list is just about the only good news about Mega Man we've had all year.

3. The top tiers will see a lot shifting around over the course of the metagame's development. Diddy is probably the only character who will stay where he is because he's just that consistent. Everyone else can still be reasonably disputed. WHICH IS AMAZING.

Painting broad strokes, I know. Still, I'm sure we'll have plenty to talk about as this topic is discussed more.

Here's to another 500 pages!

 

[FeelMeUp]

Pikachu has results similar to Greninja and Megaman(a character half of you swear is top 15) and you insist he has bad results.
lmfao.

OT: I really do not agree with Charizard being bottom 5 material at all. He always had the kit of a solid mid tier to me.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Pikachu has results similar to Greninja and Megaman(a character half of you swear is top 15) and you insist he has bad results.
lmfao.

OT: I really do not agree with Charizard being bottom 5 material at all. He always had the kit of a solid mid tier to me.

tbh I believe Charizard just needs a good player dedicated to him judging by the things I've heard about his kit and matchups

 

[EternalFlare]

I never said ESAM was right. I'm saying Pika has had good results, meaning ESAM must have somewhat knew what he was doing before being the only Pika main got to his head
Oh god you're reminding me of a kid who believes Ganon's OP with that comparison

Esam was largely the only Pikachu main in Brawl as well where I'd argue the character was better because edge guarding was more consistent with ledge hogging and worse recoveries overall. Anyway Esam was MUCH better in Brawl than he ever was in Smash 4. So he's used to the spotlight, but does a lot of wishful thinking. Funny thing is even back then he'd highly overrate Pikachu despite using Ice Climbers for a lot of his bigger wins. I think it's the classic case of you really loving a character so you wanting them be way better than they actually are.


Anyway lately just off the top of my head I can name several characters with much better results than Pikachu as of late in both NA and Japan:

Megaman, Villager, Marth, Toon Link, Lucas, Olimar, Lucario, MK

Considering how good the results of these characters are and how many top players they've consistently taken out, I don't see how one could possibly argue Pikachu deserves to be over them (outside of a popular Smasher happening to be a Pika main who regularly uploads videos).

Pikachu has results similar to Greninja and Megaman(a character half of you swear is top 15) and you insist he has bad results.
lmfao.

OT: I really do not agree with Charizard being bottom 5 material at all. He always had the kit of a solid mid tier to me.

Pikachu got 2nd at Evo, regularly dominates Japan, top 8 at SSC, top 16 at CEO and recently 4th at Umebura?

Wow my bad, I had no idea Pika was so relevant at top level.

 

[Ninety]

He was, and then Marth started being really gud.

Which makes me question how Corrin even made it past both of them.

Not to start the **** measuring contest, but what have Ike's notable results been lately? Corrin, Marth and Robin all have had better results than Ike since last tier list.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Megaman, Villager, Marth, Toon Link, Lucas, Olimar, Lucario, MK

I lurked the previous thread. A lot. I do not remember Lucario or Lucas getting good results. Could you explain how those two characters are better characters than Pikachu? Especially Lucario

 

[EternalFlare]

I lurked the previous thread. A lot. I do not remember Lucario or Lucas getting good results. Could you explain how those two characters are better characters than Pikachu? Especially Lucario

Lucario does well in Japan semi-consistently, seeing multiple top 8s at their majors there. Look up Tsu. Recently he managed 7th in a tournament where the likes of Abadango and Nietono didn't make top 8. He has some under the radar but good placings in the US as well. At Evo Day got 13h. At SSC Day also took out Zero finishing at 17th.

Lucas is a similar story. Plenty of top 8s at majors in Japan thanks to Taiheita who also got 17th at SSC.

 

[T4ylor]

I lurked the previous thread. A lot. I do not remember Lucario or Lucas getting good results. Could you explain how those two characters are better characters than Pikachu? Especially Lucario

As for Lucas, check out Taiheita's results in Japan. He's been having consistent, strong results with his most recent placing being 5th of 300 at Umebura Sat with his losses being from Nairo and Kameme.